European States and Night VFR

[soaringhigh650]

Can someone tell me why this is banned in some European States?

Is there a problem which exists on the other side of the Atlantic with flying visually in the dark?

[BackPacker]

Wish I knew, so I could do something about it. Write to my MP, for instance.

In the Netherlands the situation is already changing slowly, with police and medivac helicopters flying VFR at night, with special permission from the government.

There is one factor though. About one fifth of the Netherlands (where about half the population lives anyway), the base of CAS (class A) is lower than the MSA. So for all practical purposes night flight would not be possible there, unless you bend the rules a bit.

[mmgreve]

It is funny how in some countries, the night is a much more dangerous place than others. I can easily see how navigating across a well lit and flat Netherlands is much more difficult than say Wyoming :confused:

Much the same way as clouds become inherently dangerous when I cross UK FIR...

No....no real reason.

Interesting point by the way BackPacker. I always hate flying below Class A in the Netherlands even on a clear day. Zigzagging your way between masts with all traffic doing 1400 feet is not my idea of a fun day out. I guess your emergency procedures are pretty easy to learn - 1) If time permits, tighten harness 2) Land straight ahead :ooh:

[sycamore]

s650 , the answer is obvious; there is a big dark cloud over most of Europe; it is called `EASA`,and it has been`created` to improve `Safety` in Aviation over here.If you look at the Website,and care to look at the top executive`s CVs,you will find that none of these Executives who make these Rules are or have been, pilots/aviators or even have had a background(except one) in aviation.....So ,as they are Safety experts,they will re-invent all the wheels again,and we all have to conform...it is time-consuming,costly, over-bearing and arrogant in it`s perception that it will make aviation `Safer`.....Rule-making=Safety...:ugh:

[riverrock83]

there is a big dark cloud over most of EuropeAnd we all know that we can't fly visually in cloud - and at night its even harder to try and fly round it...

Or maybe the Dutch don't eat enough carrots

Out of curiosity - since EASA is harmonising everything - will that include flying visually at night across Europe? Will this mean a relaxation of the rules in The Netherlands? Is this one positive thing that EASA is going to do?

[Whopity]

Is there a problem which exists on the other side of the Atlantic with flying visually in the dark?No problem at all. There are two simple rules that apply to a visual flight at Night: an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft, and an aircraft in level flight above 3,000 feet amsl or above the appropriate transition altitude, whichever is the higher, shall be flown at a level appropriate to its magnetic track. These are also known as the Instrument Flight Rules. The problem comes when people confuse Rules with Conditions IMC requires IFR but IFR does not require IMC.

It is all about to become more complicated because EASA FCL.600 states that a pilot may not fly under IFR unless they hold a valid IR whilst the UK Rules of the Air (Rule 20) require all flights at night to be conducted under the IFR, so we have two conflicting rules which unless changed will prohibit all night flying without an IR! Maybe the harmonisation is meant to correct this.

[achimha]

s650 , the answer is obvious; there is a big dark cloud over most of Europe; it is called `EASA`,and it has been`created` to improve `Safety` in Aviation over here.

That's not the issue here, VFR night is allowed in many (almost all?) EASA countries. The fact that Holland does not allow it is a purely national thing. The argument about airspace A starting below MSA doesn't make much sense either because VFR night is by definition VFR. If you can't see terrain, you can't fly VFR.

VFR night is not an issue in e.g. Germany. You are required to file a flight plan and you will be treated as IFR (not allowed to navigate freely, in contact with the same ATC as IFR) so it's quite a cool thing actually, if it wasn't for the (perceived) risk factor in a SEP. There's a night low flying system like in France which you theoretically have to avoid but as you're under ATC guidance and the German Luftwaffe doesn't have any money to fly, it's a non issue.

[BEagle]

Actually I thought that the restrictions on flight under IFR outside controlled airspace and night VFR in certain Member States were legacies of either WW2 or the Cold War? Basically, the only traffic which couldn't be readily identified by interceptors had to be in a controlled environment?

Regarding FCL.600, Whopity is indeed correct. I've been pointing this out to the CAA for over a year now, hence another reason for the amendment to FCL.600 IR - General as proposed by IAOPA (Europe) and the UK CAA in their comment responses to NPA 2011-16. Which simply call for the inclusion of the existing provisions of JAR-FCL 1.175(b) into the Aircrew Regulation - hardly very contentious.

[bookworm]

Can someone tell me why this is banned in some European States?

The logic goes like this: fundamentally, Visual Flight Rules is about:

1) the visual avoidance of other aircraft
and
2) the visual avoidance of terrain and obstacles

You can't do 2 at night, at least not with reliability, since the terrain and obstacles are not all lit. Thus the substitution of a minimum safe altitude is required. That is one of the Instrument Flight Rules.

[dublinpilot]

Which simply call for the inclusion of the existing provisions of JAR-FCL 1.175(b) into the Aircrew Regulation - hardly very contentious.

It might be contentious in countries which currently don't allow VFR at night, such as the Netherlands and Ireland.

If this rule was incorporated by EASA, and hence valid EASA wide, then we too could fly at night under IFR.

VFR on top of clouds is also legal and common outside of Europe.
It's also legal and common all across Europe ;) In fact as far as I know it's legal in every country in Europe. There is a certain subset of pilots, who hold particular licences from the UK CAA, for whom it is not legal, but for everyone else it is legal, all across Europe.

[dublinpilot]

Apart from Ireland, UK and the Netherlands, what other countries in Europe don't allow VFR at night?

(I feel a little uncomfortable including the UK in that list, becasue they don't stop night flight. They do allow a non IR holder to fly at night under IFR, so long as they are in VMC).

[Rory Dixon]

If you can't see terrain, you can't fly VFR.
This is just not true. You do need to see terrain in uncontrolled airspace (class F and G), but in controlled airspace there is no such requirement.
As controlled airspace in Germany starts between 1000 and 2500 ft AGL, it is a very limited necessity (nevertheless, it could be smart, depending on your capabilities).

VFR on top of clouds is also legal and common outside of Europe.
Absolutely legal in Germany. If you want to fly at or above FL100, you have to get permission for entering class C airspace and would need CVFR qualification and your airplane needs to fulfil a few additional requirements (VHF radio, mode C or S transponder, VOR receiver, AI or turn coordinator, HI, VSI).

As achimha has said, NVFR is perfectly legal in Germany, you just have to file a flight plan. ATC will vector you around the night flying system.

[bookworm]

If you can't see terrain, you can't fly VFR.

This is just not true. You do need to see terrain in uncontrolled airspace (class F and G), but in controlled airspace there is no such requirement.

You're taking the comment out of context. If you can't see the terrain, you cannot visually separate yourself from terrain and obstacles. It would, surely, be crazy to fly VFR at night where airspace constraints prevented you from cruising at a safe altitude above unseen obstacles.

[ShyTorque]

The UK Air Navigation Order says this about minimums under IFR:

CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 18
SECTION 6 INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES
Instrument Flight Rules
32 (1) For flights within controlled airspace rules 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) For flights outside controlled airspace rules 33 and 34 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.
Minimum height
33 (1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft flies on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority in relation to the area over which the aircraft is flying; or

(d) the aircraft flies at an altitude not exceeding 3,000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and with the surface in sight and in a flight visibility of at least 800 metres.

Note para (d)......