737 max crosswind take-off roll. Question on rudder

[Tee Emm]

Question: During the take off roll until VR in a strong crosswind component, aircraft will tend to yaw into the wind due to `weather-cocking` effect. The pilot counteracts by using rudder pedals to maintain the centreline of the runway.

When applying rudder pedals to maintain the centre line, the rudder will also move and after a certain speed is the prime force used to keep the aircraft straight. But does the nosewheel steering which also operates via the rudder pedals to a limiting degree, also operate (in other words turn the nosewheel) in addition to the rudder itself?

Put another way, during the high speed portion of the take off roll in a strong crosswind, what force is used to hold the centreline? Is it mainly nosewheel operation actuated by the rudder pedals - or is it only the rudder which is also also operated by the pedals - or both together. Where a gust may require a sudden full rudder application - however momentarily - would that cause the nosewheel to also turn and scrub the tyres?

I suppose the same argument could be applied to continuing the take off roll after engine failure. Does instant corrective rudder pedal operation also cause the nosewheel to turn as well as the rudder to deflect?

The subject arose during a discussion on simulator fidelity tests. Immediately after airborne in one particular 737 simulator in a 35 knot crosswind from the right, the aircraft momentarily dips the left wing causing the aircraft to turn slightly left before the weather-cocking effect takes place and simultaneously causing the aircraft to momentarily yaw into the wind. This unusual series of events over 2-4 seconds adds to the task of tracking the centreline during initial climb.

Immediately after rotation and the main wheels leave the runway, and with a 35 knot crosswind from the right, in the real aircraft what happens? Does it yaw and roll slightly to the right caused by weathercocking. Or does it momentarily bank left before weathercocking (as shown by a yaw and roll) to the right?

I have extensive experience in the real aircraft and don't ever recall a momentary bank downwind followed by initial weather-cocking into wind.

[Notso Fantastic]

Yes it happens, Pilots are reluctant to hold enough aileron into wind to keep the upwind wing down on the roll because of fears of spoiler drag. As soon as the wheels leave the ground, the upwind wing has far more lift than the other and will roll downwind, requiring suddenly far more into wind aileron. Then the weathercocking effect takes effect because as the wheels lift off, you are instantly sideslipping. On the 747, the effect can be startling- I've seen 90 degrees aileron instantaneously applied into wind to correct the situation. I've been watching and sometimes suggested in strong winds further aileron would be a good idea. When it's not, it's interesting to see the result! I even once witnessed a pilot who didn't apply any aileron on the roll in a fresh crosswind- I think he learnt the point quickly, but I wondered how the training section hadn't picked this up in the simulator.

The same effect seems less pronounced on the 737.

It sounds arrogant, but it's the one place I disagree with Boeing on crosswind take-off recommendations. Spoiler drag below about 120 knots is, I believe, irrelevant. The spoilers aren't even that good for slowing jets up below 250 kts, so partial displacement below 120 kts isn't going to amount to more than 'a hill of beans'! Partial spoiler drag on take-off has little effect. But the BFCTM says otherwise.

[de facto]

I think the nosewheel steering via the rudder pedals gives control to the pilot until the rudder becomes efficient at higher speeds(80kts+).
At these higher speeds applying force of the rudder pedals will provide most control via the rudder itself.so no need to worry about the gust destroying your nosewheel and tires.
By the time of rotation,ailerons into wind should compensate for the rudder input.,too much ailerons input will cause a drop of wing/too much rudder will cause weatherCocking.

If once airborne you get rid of the rudder too quickly,youll get a low wing,if you get rid of ailerons inputs too quick youll get weathercocking.
Decrabbing should be done simultaniously by reducing ailerons and rudder inputs.
Never happened to you in a strong crosswind?? A little wing drop?:E:hmm::suspect:

[Tee Emm]

Spoiler drag below about 120 knots is, I believe, irrelevant.

An F/O on the 737-400 told me of his experience of being PNF during a take off where the crosswind component was around 15 knots. The captain (from the old school of captains from a particular former Australian legacy airline) pre-set almost half control wheel deflection at the start of the take off roll and held that deflection for the whole take off run.

Within around 10 knots of V1 the acceleration appeared to slow markedly - in fact so much that much more runway was eaten up than a normal take off at the same weight. The F/O was concerned that V1 was now invalid.

Spoiler drag below about 120 knots is, I believe, irrelevant.
This contradicts the FCTM advice that" reverse thrust and speedbrake drag are most effective at high speed" while at the same time the FCTM displays a diagram indicating that landing with speed brakes not extended increases the landing distance by 630-900 ft. As the average touchdown speed on the 737 is in the region of 120 to 145 knots then clearly spoiler drag is significant near typical rotation speeds and unnecessary control wheel deflection throughout the take off roll will extend take off roll.

.

[Oiga]

landing with speed brakes not extended increases the landing distance by 630-900 ft

On landing the speed brakes make the wheel brakes more effective. It´s not just the aerodynamic drag...

[Notso Fantastic]

An F/O on the 737-400 told me of his experience of being PNF during a take off where the crosswind component was around 15 knots. The captain (from the old school of captains from a particular former Australian legacy airline) pre-set almost half control wheel deflection at the start of the take off roll and held that deflection for the whole take off run.

Within around 10 knots of V1 the acceleration appeared to slow markedly
Especially with pilots 'impressions', you have to be very cautious. In a max weight 747-200 take-off from a hot and sultry BOM, I was very concerned how close the end of the RW at the V1 call it was so close. I reported that the performance was incorrect and no way could we have stopped with an engine out and on 3 reverses. The airline Performance analysis team re-examined it and concluded that there was still 100m or so in hand. i didn't believe it for a moment. A week or so after getting their response, exactly that happened, the same service lost and engine at V1, same conditions, rejected on 2 reverses (1 locked out) and still stopped with....100m in hand.

I'm afraid an F/Os assessment of acceleration during TO is just not reliable. The human body can feel good acceleration, but as for sensing degrees of graduated power acceleration, it doesn't even start. Wind effects can do funny things to the ASI as well and make it appear acceleration has stopped. I do believe partial spoiler on one side around 120kts really has no effect, but that's not what Boeing says. But- having half control wheel deflection in a strong crosswind (over 20-25kts) is a good idea. All the surprises I ever saw on lift off were from not enough, not too much. On 747 and 737, we practically used to work on about 1 division on the boss/5kts, with the knowledge when you lifted off, you would need more immediately after the wheels lift off. So question- is it better to have more close to VR than get airborne and have to go to 90 degrees as I have seen frequently and near full deflection is applied to control the wing drop? You might not believe it, but it happens- watch carefully next time the other pilot does a strong crosswind takeoff.

[911slf]

If you will pardon a quick query from a non pilot is it not the case that full speed brake on landing gives deployment (obviously on both wings) of more panels through a greater angle than deployment of full spoiler for roll control? So drag is (intentionally) much greater then? :confused:

[Notso Fantastic]

That is correct.

[RAT 5]

The comment about wing drop after lift off towards the downwind wing is also exacerbated by holding the downwind rudder on too long. It is the case that at rotation a little more into wind aileron is required. FCTM says to remove the cross control once airborne. Personally, I find it very manageable to reduce the downwind rudder during rotation to be zero at lift off. This reduces the amount of extra aileron required and also allows the a/c to take up the correct drift heading immediately after liftoff. It's all very smooth.

[fireflybob]

But- having half control wheel deflection in a strong crosswind (over 20-25kts) is a good idea. All the surprises I ever saw on lift off were from not enough, not too much. On 747 and 737, we practically used to work on about 1 division on the boss/5kts, with the knowledge when you lifted off, you would need more immediately after the wheels lift off. So question- is it better to have more close to VR than get airborne and have to go to 90 degrees as I have seen frequently and near full deflection is applied to control the wing drop? You might not believe it, but it happens- watch carefully next time the other pilot does a strong crosswind takeoff.

Notso Fantastic, couldn't have put it better myself! I always say a bit too much aileron is better than not enough - I know the question of spoiler deflection is brought up but, like you, I think this is not a relevant factor. Control of the aircraft in terms of keeping the wings level on lift off is far more important. (I speak as one who flew the B707 in which it was critical due pod clearance when the nose was pitched up)

[yrvld]

@Tee Emm

It is true that the FCTM says " reverse thrust and speedbrake drag are most effective at high speed ", but you get full ground and flight spoilers after touchdown.
For takeoff, while holding the wheel displaced you are not getting any ground spoiler deflection, hence any comparison with the landing distance penalty for not using speedbrakes is not appropriate, in my opinion.

I agree with rat5's techique, that is what I use too, seems to work fine.

[bubbers44]

As pilots we put in the appropriate aileron into the wind and judge what it takes to keep the wings level at rotation. We never let the upwind wing come up. It is quite simple to do.

[Tee Emm]

Thank you all for your informative comments. It was greatly appreciated. Interestingly, looking through a 1976 B737-200 FCTM it mentions starting the crosswind take off run with "preset" aileron position then gradually changing the wheel position as speed increases. In later editions of the FCTM the reference to preset aileron has been removed. Similarly I distinctly recall seeing another 737FCTM that stated unnecessary large control wheel angles can result in a longer take off distance. That seems to have since been removed, too

[BOAC]

This has rattled around these hallowed forums for as long as I can remember. There are basically two sorts of pilots.

One who need to 'paint by numbers' and have fixed settings for things. Simulator engineers are generally of this breed. They know EXACTLY how much NI/EPR, rudder trim, pitch etc to apply single-engined and because the sim is just a machine they then fly an IMMACULATE s/e ILS while others flail around. The other sort have a feel for the a/c and in the case of a crosswind will do what bubbers says. Both manage fine.

In both cases, ALL should know that simple aerodyamics require a bigger aileron input at rotate, and if it catches them by surprise they have not been taught properly.

Also as said above, the removal of the cross-controls at lift off is very simple and natural and 9 times out of ten leaves the a/c pointing exactly the right way for the drift.

[Denti]

@Tee Emm, there is still something about large control wheel inputs in the FCTM, main concern seems to be maintaining control at close to Vmcg speeds:

Smooth rudder control inputs combined with small control wheel inputs result in a normal takeoff with no overcontrolling. Large control wheel inputs can have an adverse effect on directional control near V1(MCG) due to additional drag of the extended spoilers.

[RAT 5]

"Also as said above, the removal of the cross-controls at lift off is very simple and natural and 9 times out of ten leaves the a/c pointing exactly the right way for the drift."

Quite. My answer to those who have seen LARGE extra aileron inputs during and after rotation I can only say it ain't helped by having a boot of rudder. There is aileron to counter the wing up effect, but there is even more to counter unnecessary rudder. Once lifting off it ain't necessary any more. I'll invite being shot down, but IMHO the FCTM is not the best explanation of how to do it. I disagreed with their approach to stall recovery technique, and guess what.......I still say we are all thinking pilots and even the Bible allows thinking followers.

[fireflybob]

I'll invite being shot down, but IMHO the FCTM is not the best explanation of how to do it. I disagreed with their approach to stall recovery technique, and guess what.......I still say we are all thinking pilots and even the Bible allows thinking followers.

RAT5, am totally with you there too!

[framer]

I can only say it ain't helped by having a boot of rudder. There is aileron to counter the wing up effect, but there is even more to counter unnecessary rudder.
I agree 100% with this.
I think people who use heaps of aileron end up inputting extra rudder and the whole takeoff roll becomes more of a struggle. If you only input aileron and rudder as needed you don't get this problem and not much of either is required until rotation when a smooth input of aileron keeps the wings level.

[PantLoad]

framer's response is essentially what the Airbus FCTM says....only, his is simpler and easier to understand. It is correct.

We should all be required to fly (to do some crosswind training in) a tail dragger. This will dispel myths....

We should use only enough roll control input to maintain wings level.
We should use appropriate rudder to keep the nose straight down the
runway until after liftoff.

Side loads on the main gear can be damaging. Airbus says more than five degrees could possibly damage the gear.

Airbus has several publications that support what is stated above.


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[SMOC]

RAT 5, just out of interest which A/C type are you flying?

The only reason I ask is years ago on my first wide body (A330) during a strong crosswind T/O I did the technique you describe, it was all going perfectly until just prior to lift off when there was a sudden vibration and shuddering of the A/C, the Capt put it down to easing off the rudder and allowing the A/C to weathercock into wind while the main wheels were still on the runway as they were effectively now scrubbing on a dry grooved runway, he said its better on wet slippery runways but didn't recommend the technique and from that day I believed him.

[misd-agin]

At the moment of liftoff the cross controls should be very close to, or exactly the same, as if you'd just landed in that configuration and speed.

There's a roll input that will allow the plane to lift off and naturally turn slighty into the wind. There's a corrseponding opposite rudder that will keep the a/c tracking straight.

It's one of the small joys, and times to observe your coworker's skill, to do a takeoff that has no side load as the a/c lightens during rotation, and does a nice blended roll into the desired track and control inputs are neutralized.

And this isn't a computer game. The wind isn't always the same during the 10(?) seconds to go from Vr to established in the correct track(heading) and the gear is commanded up. The slight variations in wind, and no one will have the inputs EXACTLY perfect everytime, will take very minor corrections that no passenger, hopefully, ever notices. :D

[stilton]

I have never understood the concern with 'spoiler drag' on take off.


It is far more important to keep the wings level throughout the take off roll and ensuing rotation than worrying about the comparitively negligible drag of raised flight spoilers on the upwind wing.


There will be a lot more drag produced if you start skidding downwind, and / or off the runway because you are not using the right technique.


Keeping the wings level, nose and main wheels planted firmly on the ground until VR then rotating with wings level using whatever control wheel inputs are necessary is paramount.

[sheppey]

Hands up all those who remember their first attempts at crosswind take off's in Cessna 172, Warriors and even Tiger Moths and their ilk where junior instructors and some senior instructors too, insist on full control wheel (stick in the Moth) deflection into any crosswind, be it five knots or 15 knots. Aileron into wind, Bloggs... I sometimes wonder if those bad habits die hard and are carried over years later into jet transports.

[misd-agin]

Stilton - More important to keep the wings level? How much does the plane roll downwind on takeoff roll if no input is made? Half a degree? One degree? And for that guys are putting spoilers up before it's even required? Boeing has described the procedure they used to generate the takeoff performance.

If you're anywhere near balanced field length, and having multiple thrust settings and assumed power takeoffs creates that situation, what is your takeoff distance if you artificially increase your drag during the takeoff roll?

Necessary technique/procedure for light airplanes? Absolutely. Jets? No.

[stilton]

misd-agin, you obviously missed again.


Try re reading my post and thinking about it a little more.


Not applying corrective crosswind inputs will cause you a lot more directional problems creating more drag than the negligible drag of partially raised spoilers on one wing.


The drag is negligible, what you are actually doing with these raised spoilers is keeping the main gear firmly planted throughout the take off roll, this is important !



The spoilers are killing lift where you do not want it, they have a very minimal affect on acceleration or deceleration at these speeds.

[misd-agin]

So now you're speaking highly about generating downforce, by killing lift with the spoiler, to keep the main gear forced into the ground, during the takeoff roll???

The spoilers are killing lift where we do not want it? Where do we NOT want lift during the takeoff roll?

[stilton]

'So now you're speaking highly about generating downforce, by killing lift with the spoiler, to keep the main gear forced into the ground, during the takeoff roll??? '


You may remember the reason we hold into wind Aileron on a crosswind take off is to prevent the upwind wing from lifting, when we do not want it to, both during the take off roll and subsequent rotation.



With stronger winds the Aileron deflection required will cause differential deflection of the flight spoilers on the upwind wing, this will kill some of the lift on this side, there is nothing wrong with this during the take off roll as we are not attempting to fly before VR at least we shouldn't be.





'The spoilers are killing lift where we do not want it? Where do we NOT want lift during the takeoff roll? '



On the upwind wing before and during rotation, basically we want less than too much !


Do you really want to fly before that point ?

[misd-agin]

Boeing says to use the amount necessary to keep the wings level.
There's no attempt to drive the main gear into the ground. The intent is to maintain wings level. The amount of roll input at the start of the takeoff roll is zero. At rotation it should be about the same amount you'd have if you had just landed.

Maybe we're talking about the same thing and just missing each other's intent.