EASA-languages for PPL

[stupix]

I have been informed of a rumor that the French are insisting upon all PPL training/examining in France to take place in French and only French including all PPL theory exams when we enter EASA land. Therefore UK EASA theory exams will not be valid in France for the issue of the license for example ?
Has anyone heard anything about this or other countries restricting training in English in other countries ?
Surely the advent of EASA should mean that the licenses/testing/training should be common across all of the boarders ?
thanks
stu

[BEagle]

Since when were PPL exams taken in one JAA state ever valid in another?

I tried to propose to EASA that any PPL exam taken in any Member State would be deemed acceptable in any other Member State, but it was pointed out that the exams are structured in different ways in different countries - some combine exams which others do not. There would also be a need to translate all Member States' PPL exams into every single EU language, which would be an enormous and rather unnecessary task.

Why on earth shouldn't the French insist on using their national language for their PPL exams? It seems entirely reasonable to me.

[Whopity]

I have been informed of a rumor that the French are insisting upon all PPL training/examining in France to take place in French I think you will find that in accordance with French law, all teaching in France must be conducted in French. It is also an offence to use agricultural machinery during the lunch hour 1200-1430! So what?

[WestWind1950]

under the present JAA regualtions, the German exams are also only in German for the simple reason, there are no English language exams available. There was a time when some students actually were able to take them in English (one school had foreign students in training) but in the long run it was too much trouble. The exam preparation books were available in German only, translating them would have been too expensive and always the possibility of mistakes being made (as happened in the draft of the new EASA FCL... a major translation error which has now been corrected in the final version).

I believe that originally there was supposed to be a central data center where all questions for everyone could be received from, but I guess that didn't work out... and with 27 different languages a bit too much to expect.

I do think exams from the other countries should be accepted, but how can they be sure that the exams are up to their own standards? I think that is the main problem.

[Whopity]

I believe that originally there was supposed to be a central data center where all questions for everyone could be received from, but I guess that didn't work out.I don't believe there was any such plan. When JAR-FCL was originally proposed, it did not include the PPL and consequently there was no plan to produce a question bank.

The PPL was only drawn into JAR-FCL because AOPA, who was responsible for the administration of all PPL examiners, saw this as an opportunity to increase their influence and membership by proposing that the PPL was the first module in the modular ATPL, and that they should assume responsibility for Registering all PPL schools.

The CAA decided to take control of all Examiners and tore up the AOPA agreement leaving AOPA with no prospect of being allowed to conduct the Registration process. AOPA then became antagonistic towards the very licence they had pushed for, and were told by the CAA to go away unless they could be constructive. They returned shortly afterwards with proposals for the NPPL!

Meanwhile, the only written exams are those produced by individual States in their National language, designed originally to comply with ICAO Annex 1. These exams have since been contorted to fit the so called JAA/EASA syllabus (the AOPA Syllabus) which supposedly meets the same ICAO standard . There are no proposed changes in the pipeline however; under EASA, each State is free to say which languages their exams will be available in. I think we all know the answer.

[jez d]

What about the RT exam, shirely that's in Englais ?

[Whopity]

Not necessarily! The English part is now covered by the ICAO Certificate of English Language Proficiency. RT privileges can be in the National Language.

It does however raise an interesting question regarding communication with ATC who should use English unless its at a non International aerodrome.

[proudprivate]

I do think exams from the other countries should be accepted, but how can they be sure that the exams are up to their own standards? I think that is the main problem.


Let me get this straight here: you are suggesting that theoretical exams from one (or more) JAA member states might not be "up to standard". You argue that this is impediment to accept theoretical exams from other member states to complete flight training in Germany on the basis of these theoretical exams.

On the other hand, you accept that pilots from that same country, having sat the inadequate tests of said JAA country and having completed flight training (potentially also not meeting the "high German standard") in the same country, can then go on and fly D-registered aircraft in (and outside of) Germany. :confused:

The reason that no member state allows this, is of course pure protectionism. With the question databases is most countries presently being complete dross, imagine the following possibility :

A new, relatively ambitious EU member state like Hungary produces a sensible, learning objective compliant, 5000 question database covering the 7 theoretical PPL exams. Along side, it publishes training materials and a downloadable test preparation kits in four languages, say
Hungarian, English, French and German. It offers the test kit for € 50 and the publishing materials for € 100. In addition, for a € 25 fee, it will sign off for the exam anyone submitting two mock exams of each of the 7 subjects with a score of 85% or better. The exams can be sat at the Budapest Exam Centre in 1 day, for a nominal fee of € 140.

But hey, that would mean that all those FTO's who are charging £500+ for question databases test prep access suddenly would lose all their business. :hmm: can't have that, really, no. After all, such an implementation would actually mean that the European Union would somehow function for the benefit of its citizens :eek:.

[WestWind1950]

proudpilot, I was generalizing there a bit. Since the various authorities do not know WHO put together the exams, there is no guarantie, just like examiners from other countries are not accepted because the authorities do not know them. I heard a story about a British businessman starting his training in Switzerland, then moved to Holland and wanted to continue his flight training. The Dutch didn't accept any of his previous training in spite of Switzerland being a JAA country! :ugh:

And I never heard of AOPA wanting to take over the examinations... it's a private organisation after all! And again, each country has their own AOPA, too. In Germany AOPA is definitely NOT responsible for the PPL examiners (luckily)!

RT is either in the national language, and then you're restricted to airspace/airfields that are done in that language, or English or both.

[stupix]

my reason for asking this is regarding the prospect of English people wanting to do their PPL in for instance France or Spain, where the weather is largely a lot better weather than the UK. With the advent of EASA and from what I have read in the EASA documentation, all theory examinations, medicals and practical testing will be carried out in one country and then when the tests are passed the licenses will be issued by that one country.
So if Mr J Bloggs wants to go to flight school in Spain/France/timbukthree to do his PPL he will have to do the PPL theory exams/class 2 medical and flight test in Spainish/French/Timbukish.
I am not exactly the sharpest tool in the flight bag but am I getting this wildly wrong ? Or would Mr Blogs still be able to do his medical/theory exams still in the UK in English and then travel to Spain and do his PPL flying and test ? Sorry to be asking what might be straight forward to some people but I am finding the legal papers a little tough to stay conscious to whilst reading.
stu

[Whopity]

There has always been an issue doing the PPL in another European country simply because you have to do it their way. What has happened as a result is that a few English schools have set up in some countries aimed at providing PPL training for those who speak English. There are lots of people in Europe living in countries where they do not speak the local language well enough to take the National exams, but could do them in English. All those who have set up schools doing this have found that there are other issues to address in doing so. In the main, the most recent ones have done it on the basis of a UK Registered Facility with the UK issuing the licence. We are all left wondering if this can continue under EASA because it involves one State granting an approval in another State and nobody knows if this will be permitted under the new beaurocracy. It is only the administrative oversight that has changed in the last 20 years and that has simply added to the level of difficulty.

[jez d]

Stupix, my best guess, and that's all it is, is that bi-lateral agreements between EASA member states won't happen at the student training stage.

I believe EASA have stipulated (although I'm ready to be corrected) that the national aviation authority that issues one's licence must be the same one that issued one's initial medical, so my basic understanding is that the whole course must be carried out in the same country.

Why ?

I think it's fundamentally a matter of appeasing the national aviation auhtorities rather than one of avoiding disjointed training. Taking the UK CAA as a prime example, their chief concern regarding the advent of EASA is one of 'regulatory shopping'. We in the real world call it 'market forces', but RS is the CAA's catchphrase and a big worry for them, given they levy some of the highest charges found in Europe.

[S-Works]

Why shouldnt people have the ability to regulatory shop? It is the whole purpose of a common europe afterall....

[jez d]

Quite, Bose.

[stupix]

bose-x (http://www.pprune.org/members/76195-bose-x)
I couldn't agree more with you. Whats the point in having a common system across Europe which isn't a common system across Europe ?

[Whopity]

There was no point messing around with it in the first place; each State met the ICAO requirement and Annex 1 recommends mutual recognition at PPL level. That would have left schools free to operate wherever they like for a licence in whatever language they liked.

[S-Works]

But how would that have created second pension jobs and expensed junkets?

[BillieBob]

I believe EASA have stipulated (although I'm ready to be corrected) that the national aviation authority that issues one's licence must be the same one that issued one's initial medicalI can find nothing in the Aircrew Regulation to support this view. The only relevant restriction is FCL.025, which states that applicants shall take the entire set of theoretical knowledge examinations "under the responsibility of" one member state. However, this does not imply that the state in which the examinations are taken must be the same as the state to which application for licence issue is made.

If a competent authority were to seek to restrict the state in which any of the qualifications for licence issue was gained, it would be in breach of Article 11 of the Basic Regulation. There is nothing in the Aircrew Regulation to prevent an individual from taking the theoretical knowledge exams in one state, the medical in another, the flight training course in a third, the skill test in a fourth and then making an application for issue of the licence to a fifth. Provided that the applicant meets all of the requirements of Part-FCL and Part-Med, the competent authority to which the application is made is required by Part-ARA to issue the licence.

[jez d]

Can't at the moment recall where I saw such a statement. Will look further and report back if my search yields any results.

Regards, jez

[BEagle]

I raised those very points at an EASA FCL Partnership Group meeting last year. I gave as an example a UK employee who had started to learn to fly in Finland whilst working there, but who had then been sent to Greece by his employer on another contract. Would it really be reasonable for exams taken in all good faith in Finland to be repeated in Greece - or would he be required to go back to Finland to finish the exams?

The main problems weren't so much concerned with 'regulatory shopping' as the lack of standardisation across Member States at PPL level. Whilst there is a CQB for commercial exams (being re-written, incidentally...), no similar system exists at PPL level. I'm told that some Member States combine several topics into one exam (e.g. navigation with flight performance and planning), whilst others do not. In addition, the degree of accuracy required for calculated answers and the right to use electronic navigation computers is not universal. Some Member States insist upon the exams being sat at an examination centre, whilst others permit them to be sat at local flying schools. Add to that the problem of converting 27 or so different question sets into every other language and the problems become obvious.

It would be intereresting if Bwrdd Yr Iaith Gymraeg started demanding that UK PPL exams should be available in Welsh.....:E

[Whopity]

They'll soon need new papers for Scotland, no doubt in Gaelic

[proudprivate]

If a competent authority were to seek to restrict the state in which any of the qualifications for licence issue was gained, it would be in breach of Article 11 of the Basic Regulation.

I hope that you are right, Billiebob. However, Article 11 refers to mutual recognition of certificates. Would you read that as "Theoretical Exam Results" ? Or is it more narrowly interpreted as "Pilot Licences", "Medical Certificates" etc...

If it's the former, then that is simply brilliant, as it would open the way to a much more efficient study system as described in my cynical post with the Hungarian example above. The only thing the bogeymen can then do is start an Article 65 procedure, which is doomed to fail provided the question database and study materials are in compliance with the learning objectives.

Long live the "Budapesten Repülés Földön Iskola"

Want to add your view to this ?

[BEagle]

"Budapesten Repülés Földön Iskola"

Your hovercraft is full of eels?

[BillieBob]

Would you read that as"Theoretical Exam Results" ?Well, EASA certainly would. In its response to a comment on FCL.015 in the Part-FCL CRD it stated "In the system created by the Basic Regulation, mutual recognition of certificates is automatic. Therefore, training conducted at an ATO shall be recognised by all Member States, as well as a certificate of completion of theoretical knowledge examinations."

[proudprivate]

Your hovercraft is full of eels?


You ought to know better, you great poof !

[BEagle]

That'll be 6/6d, please, proudprivate!

One of the more famous Monty Python sketches from 40 years ago:

IN9mP2_1A-c

[mrmum]

Since when were PPL exams taken in one JAA state ever valid in another?
BEagle,
In 2010 we had a Polish student, who'd been working locally for several years commence a PPL course with us. He completed all the theoretical exams and some flying training, following this he couldn't agree ongoing terms with his employer, so went back to Poland.
Shortly after this, I had an email from Gatwick, requesting confirmation of his exam dates, set numbers and results on behalf of the Polish CAA, as he was continuing his PPL in Poland, I believed that they were going to accept his UK theory passes for a Polish issued JAA-PPL(A).
As it happened, he didn't much like the training environment back home and came back to complete his PPL with us.

[jez d]

BillieBob,

Further to my comment concerning an EASA proposal which I believed meant that the NAA that issues a flight crew licence must be the same one which issued the initial medical, I note with interest the following which has appeared on Oxford Aviation Academy's forum:

ask.oxfordaviation.net • View topic - IMPORTANT: EASA Regulations Notice (http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5900&p=31683#p31683)

EASA Regulations Notice for Oxford Aviation Academy Students
The following guidance applies to current or prospective OAA students whose initial Class 1 Medical Certificate was issued by an EU state other than the UK excluding:



• Those who will obtain their CPL/IR or MPL by 30th June 2012

• Modular MCC students
EASA regulations come into force of law on 8th April 2012 and effect licences issued by the UK CAA from 1st July 2012. Oxford Aviation Academy sought clarification from the CAA on new regulations regarding Medical Certificates and Flight Crew License issue and we have determined the following relevant points:



• Under EASA, pilots who have their aviation medical records held in another country (following initial Class 1 Medical issue) will not become UK licence holders - even if they are training at a school located in the UK.

• Both Initial and Licence Renewal/Revalidation Testing is the responsibility of the Authority of the State that issued the student’s initial Class 1 medical and holds their medical records.

• Under EASA, flight examiners can work anywhere, but they have a personal responsibility to inform the State of Licence Issue of the student of their intent to conduct a test, be briefed by that Authority and receive approval from them to conduct the test.

• The UK CAA will not refuse to test EU students - but they cannot determine who will test them as it is up to the authority that holds their medical records to decide.

• The UK CAA testing service is for those students wishing to gain a UK issued EASA licence and whose medical records are held by the UK CAA.

• OAA students with an EU Class 1 medical certificate issued from a country other than the UK can go to the Aeromedical centre at Gatwick Airport to undergo a further initial examination to get a new initial Class 1 medical certificate. The CAA would not need previous aviation medical records for that but they will charge the full initial medical fee of £341.

• Should the student decide to transfer their medical records to the UK CAA, they will be required to have the records translated into English and the student will bear the cost for this. However, if the medical forms are obtained from the UK CAA and are completed by your AME at home, then this will also be acceptable and the cost will only be in the region of £50 to the UK CAA, however, you will have to pay your AME for the medical renewal and he has to be able to complete the CAA document in English. This particular transfer option is only available up to 29th June; thereafter the EASA regulations take precedent (students should allow sufficient time for the ‘new’ Class 1 certificate to be issued by the UK CAA before EASA implementation!
OAA Recommendations

If you plan to enrol on a CPL/IR or MPL course with OAA, and you have not already obtained a Class 1 Medical Certificate, we recommend that you obtain a UK CAA issued Initial Class 1 Medical Certificate from the Aeromedical Centre at Gatwick. The UK will become your state of license issue and our Flight Examiners can conduct your Licence Skills Tests.

Current students holding a Class 1 Medical Certificate from an EASA Member State other than the UK, have the following options:



1. Attend a new Initial Class 1 Medical Examination with the UK CAA at Gatwick Airport and obtain a CAA issued Class 1 Medical Certificate. Cost about £341.

2. Transfer your medical records to the UK CAA Aeromedical Centre at Gatwick Airport. The Authority that holds these records will need to agree to the transfer and they most likely will charge a fee for this service. Furthermore, the UK CAA will require that the records be translated onto English and the applicant must pay for the translation. Cost unknown.

[BillieBob]

Quite. The requirement is that the licence is issued by the state that holds the medical records, not necessarily the one that conducted the medical examination or issued the medical certificate. It may seem like a fine point of semantics but it is on such points that the legal profession relies for its income.

It is clear that, in a number of areas, the UK CAA's understanding of the law differs markedly from that of EASA and has not yet understood that it is the latter that holds the whip hand.

[jez d]

Indeed. One wonders in the case of these OAA students what the cost for translating a medical report from, say, French into English is going to be and how much the DGAC will levy for the transfer.

Starting again and paying the £341 medical fee at Gatwick may end up being the most economic route.