The negative aspects of LCC's

[L'aviateur]

Whilst Low Cost Carriers have brought down prices, it seems that they have left quite a few negatives. To me, the idea of a Low Cost Carrier is a basic A to B ticket, nothing extra and easily booked.

The Low Cost Carriers however seem to be anything but, and find everyway possible to sneak in extra costs or catch people out, instead of being straight up. It seems that if they are having to resort to sneaky tricks, they aren't so good.

My biggest annoyance however, is when they have take over routes on their A320 and 737s which have previously been served by the full fare carriers in smaller turboprops, undercut these airlines forcing them out, and then decided in the winter the route isn't worth operating and left the airport without any service.... thanks!

Finally, is the airlines (specifically Flybe), who seem to have this attitude that they if the flights they have scheduled aren't full enough, that close to the departure time they can cancel the schedule for 'technical reasons' and transfer everyone onto the next flight.

I do think we have some things to thank the LCC's for, but are they really that great now? Do they really offer value for money?

[PAXboy]

Well ... this subject has been covered so many times and in so many threads in so many different forums of PPRuNe that, to point you to them will take a long time. For example: http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/429434-ryanair-questions-comments-bouquets-brickbats-merged-ii.html [note that this is second such thread on FR alone!]
The key points (on ANY LCC) are that:


They do not 'sneak in' ANY cost - unless they manage to hypnotise you. It is you - and you alone - who electronically agrees to what they are going to charge. Many threads in PPRuNe on this topic.
If they decrease prices and expand capacity for part of the year and then reverse that - it's called 'capitalism'. If you can prove that two companies colluded to put another out of business, or that one company used predatory pricing - then do notify the trading standards officer in the area where the offence took place. Many threads in PPRuNe on this topic.
If you have proof that a carrier is using 'technical failure' as a ruse for commercially non viable flight. - then do notify the trading standards officer in the area where the offence took place. Many threads in PPRuNe on this topic.

I don't mean to give offence to you but these questions are all very old ground and I'm sure you can find threads to revitalise, rather than starting the whole shebang all over again.

[Load Toad]

Nobody is forced to fly 'em.
If you don't like their T&C - don't fly 'em.
If enough people don't fly 'em things will change.
Things aren't changing so I guess...

[WHBM]

They do not 'sneak in' ANY cost - unless they manage to hypnotise you. It is you - and you alone - who electronically agrees to what they are going to charge.
Sure they do. How else do you describe default-ticked check boxes that are in the lower area of the booking web page so that you have to scroll down to see have been ticked. You just notice on the final summary page that the price is more than you were expecting. And then you have to work back to find them.

Anyone who goes on a web designers course will be told of such "tricks of the trade" to covertly increase revenue without most of the imbecile punters realising it.

[L'aviateur]

I honestly think that British people are becoming particularly accepting of being 'screwed' at every opportunity.
I personally cant keep up with the latest 'screws' that go on when I go return to the UK, and have seen many foreign friends who have visited and been caught out with these what I suppose could be called 'Legal Scams', and were quite shocked by the kind of 'tricks' that LCC's the UK pull. I'm embarrased for the country when we allow ourselves to become known as untrustworthy.
I have found booking with Low Cost Carriers in the Middle East and Asia much much easier.

[Torque Tonight]

I just un-tick the tickboxes for items that I don't want. It's not rocket science. And if you don't even scroll to the bottom of the page when you're buying something on a website then you're probably beyond help.

[Hotel Tango]

And what many people still fail to grasp (if they did their sums right) is that many of these so-called LCCs are not in fact that much cheaper (unless you can be in time to book the first few seats sold at loss making prices) than many of the so-called legacy airlines. The one big difference is that with the legacy airlines you still receive better customer comfort, service and assistance. But even in the LCC world there are significant differences between airlines. I gladly use Air Berlin but stay well away from Ryanair.

[smith]

To me, the idea of a Low Cost Carrier is a basic A to B ticket,

In Ryanair's case it is usually 30miles from A to 70km from B (eg try flying "Glasgow" to "Paris" on Ryanair).:ugh:

[Torque Tonight]

I know you trot out this 'joke' periodically (last seen on 8 Oct) but it really isn't very amusing.

If on this occassion you were trying to use it as a serious point I would tell you that not everyone wants to fly from A to B. Many people want to fly from C to D, and if that route is viable Ryanair will open it up. It will only be viable if people choose to buy tickets to fly on it. So, the relative proximity of A to C and B to D is pretty irrelevant. FR successfully operate many routes which simply didn't exist before. As always the bottom line is, if you don't like it don't buy tickets for it (sit on an internet forum and make tired old wisecracks instead).:ugh:

[Octopussy2]

To be fair, the routes tend to be advertised as being between "Glasgow" and "Paris" (with the name of the actual airport in brackets/small print somewhere), NOT the actual locations where those flights depart and land, so smith's joke isn't entirely off the mark.

I'm impressed at the level of recall though; not sure I'd remember a particular post from 8 October...I must be too busy :p

[Torque Tonight]

Maybe my memory still works OK, but repeated exposure does tend to aid recall. By the way I have this great NEW joke about an aircraft carrier and a lighthouse. Anyone... anyone....?

[Torque Tonight]

the routes tend to be advertised as being between "Glasgow" and "Paris" (with the name of the actual airport in brackets/small print somewhere), NOT the actual locations where those flights depart and land

http://tinyurl.com/d8xcuqf

Hmmm. I can see how that's difficult.

[PAXboy]

WHBMHow else do you describe default-ticked check boxes ...Hotel Tangomany of these so-called LCCs are not in fact that much cheaper ... I gladly use Air Berlin but stay well away from Ryanair.In reverse, I agree that Air Berlin is good, along with Norwegian. I buy on a number of factors of which price is but one. For many, price is the only factor.

Yes, WHBM, it can be irritating - especially when you find that some aspect of the form filling has not worked and they return you to the page with a red warning and so you examine the details you have filled in. Meanwhile, they have automatically 'rechecked' all the default boxes that you 'unchecked'. Consequently, I do not use them again (websites selling things other than aircraft tickets do the same) and advise friends not to.

Why am I not more irritated by this? I have grown cynical and assume that everyone IS trying to rip me off. I have come to think the worst of just about every seller on the planet. I find this a better route than being irritated/angered. The world has changed from when I was a child and, even if there are aspects of it that I do not like, there is nothing I can do about it except not use these companies. If I find they are the only supplier for a given product/service, then I approach with care.

L'aviateurI'm embarrased for the country when we allow ourselves to become known as untrustworthy.But we ARE unstrustworthy! The UK is 'at the end of empire' and this kind of greed, double dealing, and decandent decline is what ALL successful countries will eventually come to. One of the most well documented examples being The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_the_Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_Empire), by Edward Gibbon. There is a fascinating statement in that article:
According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions in large part due to the gradual loss of civic virtue among its citizens.There is a little way yet to run before total collapse in the UK but it is inevitable and just mankind doing what mankind does. So, when doing anything in the UK, bear in mind what the Romans said: Caveat emptor - Let the buyer beware! :}

[smith]

Torque,

Ha ha ha ha ha :O

Did you get a personality by-pass for xmas? Yes it's meant to be a joke. :yuk:

I don't recall in the years before FR thinking to myself I'd really like to fly from Prestwick to Beauvais for a trip to Paris, however I did always think I'd like to fly from Glasgow to Paris.

Anyway, as I say it was a joke and you know I take any opportunity to bash FR and I only ever use it when we get the standard "LCC's are a great way of getting from A to B yada, yada, yada" diatribe. I use my joke and will continue to use it every time some know-it-all uses this irritating phrase. :ok:

[Torque Tonight]

You should buy more expensive christmas crackers if that's your idea of a joke. Keep telling it by all means, but expect to get similar reactions each time.

I don't recall in the years before FR thinking to myself I'd really like to fly from Prestwick to Beauvais

You may be astounded to learn that the airline industry doesn't revolve solely around you. There are obviously sufficient people who want to fly that route to justify its existence.

you know I take any opportunity to bash FR

And you know that many of us who work in this sector get sick and tired of criticism when it is inaccurate, unfounded, unreasonable, or nothing more than tiresome old jokes. Thanks for the 'personality bypass' gag by the way, that was one of your funniest.

[WHBM]

There are several comments here about "rip-off Britain" etc, and also about Ryanair.

May I point out that Ryanair is an Irish airline, managed from Dublin and with the website written in Dublin. For accuracy, please ensure you write about "rip-off Ireland" in these instances.

[Avionker]

The biggest negative aspect of LCCs is that we, in the aviation industry, now get paid less.

End of discussion. :mad:

[jackieofalltrades]

Why am I not more irritated by this? I have grown cynical and assume that everyone IS trying to rip me off. I have come to think the worst of just about every seller on the planet. I find this a better route than being irritated/angered.

I agree, and tend to follow a similar vein when shopping online. I almost feel happy when I've unchecked all the default add-ons. It's like I'm actually getting a bargain, paying less for something than the full price. (I know that's not the case in reality, but it still gives me that sensation)

[Octopussy2]

Sorry TT, you've misunderstood me; I mean "advertised" in the usual sense ie. on billboards etc. Of course by the time you get as far as the booking page on the Ryannair site they would have to include the information, otherwise people would fetch up at the wrong airport, non?

[WHBM]

they would have to include the information, otherwise people would fetch up at the wrong airport, non?This is by no means unknown with Ryanair ticketed pax, people turning up in the Glasgow terminal for departures from Glasgow Prestwick being a particular issue.

[PAXboy]

The younger generations are learning all these tricks of the new trade. It's manily us that have known the 'before' that have problems and irritations with the 'after'.

In a few years time, the ones now aged 10, will be as astounded to hear about full service, as we are about the Empire Flying Boats, landing on the Nile and then all the pax going into the hotel and having dinner at the captains table in full black tie!

It's just the changing times.

[crewmeal]

Ah yes PAXboy those were indeed the days, when cabin crews looked after you and smiled when you requested something and gave you little things like nuts, hot towels, meals endless rounds of tea and coffee.

I hope today's 10 year olds who become tomorrow's cabin crew learn how to smile and won't be astounded by customer service.

[Sunnyjohn]

I do find LCC bashing quite silly. I travel from Valencia to Alicante by coach. It's a two hour journey. I don't expet anything except to get to my destination on time, which I usually do. A journey from Bristol to Valencia by plane also takes two hours. The only practical difference between the coach and the aircraft is the time one has to spend in the airport. Who do LCC SLF expect anything more than a bus ride? Humans - I'll never understand 'em!

[wowzz]

Sunnyjohn [and yes it is very sunny here in Spain at the moment] - you forgot to mention that the coach company representative at the door of the coach does not weigh your luggage and charge you €40+ if it is 1kg too heavy.

[Hotel Tango]

Not only that, but coach travel has become progressively more comfortable over the years. Airlines are doing the exact opposite!

[PAXboy]

Hotel Tango... coach travel has become progressively more comfortable over the years.These conveyances are only superficially similar. In these points 'vehicle' means a coach or aircraft:


Construction cost of vehicles is rather different.
Cost of insuring the vehicle is rather different.
Cost of fuel per passenger mile.
One vehicle runs on roads built by the state and which are paid for by fuel duty and toll taxes. The other uses dedicated pathways that are charged to the owner and include ATC.
Cost of maintenance.
Cost of overnight parking differs between a coach park and an airport.
Not sure if coach stations charge per arrival and per departure, or a flat fee?
Cost of safety legislation placed on owner of vehicle differs.
Cost of driver due to legislation of duty/rest hours differs.
Cost of vehicle standing idle for a week differs.
Etcetera.

So the aircraft had the benefit of speed and the coach lost. They had to respond by providing something different, one of which turned out to be comfort.

Once LCCs started, the coach owners were really in trouble because they can never beat the speed. Since 99.99% of pax have shown (across the world) that price is the only point - the comfort of coaches is still going to have a hard job to win. However, since their overheads are so much less, they can give more leg room and so on.

[Hotel Tango]

PAXboy

Thank you for the lesson ;) but I think that you misunderstood my comment.

Don't forget that there continue to be a significant number of people who will just not fly regardless how cheap (today) and fast it may be. I was merely alluding to the improving standards for those who choose to travel by coach relative to the deteriorating standards for those who choose to travel by air. I was not commenting in terms of one mode of transport competing with the other from A to B.

[Sunnyjohn]

Oh dear, PAXboy, you did rather miss the point. What I posted was:
The only practical difference between the coach and the aircraft is the time one has to spend in the airport.
Customers have very little interest in how the conveyence is built, who operates it, or what colour the captain's socks are. All we want to do is to get from A to B as cheaply and quickly as possible. You, sir, may well be interested in these things. The bloke in the seat next to me - be it coach or plane - is not.

[Rwy in Sight]

Where do we put the trains in this story?

Rwy in Sight

[radeng]

Runway

>Where do we put the trains in this story? <

In the UK, you don't. They are definitely not low cost - apparently the most expensive in Europe. In many cases, they are overcrowded, dirty and uncomfortable, while the reliability and time keeping is not as good as it might be. Additionally, there is no flexibility left for when things go wrong, because of privatisation and the number of different companies who blame each other.

Personally, I want the full service that we used to get, and I am prepared to pay for it.

[L'aviateur]

Sunnyjohn, it would be nice if the LCC's were as easy as they claim to be and as easy as travelling by coach.

The reason we value business class so much is because it actually makes it easy...

In Asia the LCC's actually are often quite simple, the price you see is the price you get and you add the things you want. Easy!

[Hartington]

Radeng, if you walk into the station and ask to travel now our trains can be expensive there's no doubt. But a little flexibility and planning can mean significant savings. It's a bit like the difference between walking into Heathrow and saying "I want a ticket on the next flight to New York" and going to a website a week or so beforehand and seeing what you can find - the difference in price can be eye watering.

In many ways the fare structure on the railway is little different to airline fares - not easy to understand and illogical. I'm sure if you approach buying a train ticket the same way you approach a plane ticket you'll see dividends.

Oh, and it's not simply about advance purchase. There's a little know rule on the trains that you can hold more than one ticket, combined end on end, for a rail journey. The train has to stop at the station where you change from one ticket to the next (you don't have to get off). Living where I do (125 miles from London) if I want to go to London I either buy in advance or I buy tickets at the station, on the day, Home - A, A-B, B-C and C-London. Brings the fare down from something over GBP70 for a day return to just under 40 using the same trains (and that includes a Travelcard) and advance can be as little as GBP12 each way.

[Sunnyjohn]

In a recent EU-wide survey on railways, believe it or not, UK railways came top of the list for good timekeeping. Shows you how bad the rest are! However, here in Spain, the introduction of the AVE from Madrid to Valencia has seen a significant transfer of customers from aircraft to train, most of whom are commuters and business travellers. If you book well ahead (as already mentioned for the UK railways) you can find a fare that is the same or cheaper than the equivalent flight and, because rail is city centre to city centre, the overall journey is faster.

[Skipness One Echo]

Ah yes PAXboy those were indeed the days, when cabin crews looked after you and smiled when you requested something and gave you little things like nuts, hot towels, meals endless rounds of tea and coffee.

Putting it bluntly, those were the days when flying was not for the likes of me and people from my less than wealthy background. Do I want to pay several hundred quid more for some nuts, a towel and "Tea? Coffee?" Of course not.
The last one about cabin staff being better will partly be a trick of memory I suspect.

[L'aviateur]

As for the railways, i've no idea where they get the figures from. Firstly I've never found particularly nice train in Europe, whether it be the TGV or whatever, and have been in so called 'First' in France, Holland, Spain and Italy. In france trying to book from Nice to Paris cost an absolute arm and a leg. Nice to Monaco was expensive enough...
Italy was expensive as well, and the trains were horrendous.

My experience on the North Eastern lines and the Virgin Crosscountry have always been fantastic, Wi-Fi comfortable seats and table service in First. Even the transpennine express into Manchester Airport is great in First Class. Admittedly I've never commuted or been on many other routes in the UK, but always found the trains to be very good.
I've done the Eurostar to France and preferred it to flying, much more civilised.

[Hotel Tango]

Do I want to pay several hundred quid more for some nuts, a towel and "Tea? Coffee?" Of course not.

No nor do I. However, I know (from personal experience) that you got more than that. Better seat pitch, hot meals and complimentary alcohol to begin with. If a flight was delayed you were given a voucher which paid for a decent meal in the airport's full service restaurant. If a flight was cancelled they would make every effort to put you on an alternative flight including that of the competition. If the cancellation resulted in having to overnight they provided you with 4 or 5 star hotel accomodation inclusive of evening meal and breakfast. All this was available to all economy class passengers including those who had paid the much cheaper APEX economy fares.

[radeng]

Try Switzerland for clean on time trains. I've never had a problem in Germany, either. Including a dining car attendent who when asked for a receipt, responded (in English) 'How much do you want it made out for?'

I've had a number of occasions in BR days when things went t*ts up, that 'Special Stop Notices' were issued to get me home or to the airport. On one occasion, they even started a special to get me home: by the time it got from Ramsgate to Dartford for me, it had 12 coaches and full load of pax for London! Plus I'd been given a cup of tea in the Station Foreman's office.

Sure as hell wouldn't happen now. Eurostar I don't find as good as Club Europe, and it's no more reliable - especially if it's very cold! Don't forget December 2010 when the steam loco took the commuters home, too.

[vctenderness]

For European travel it is always good to check out BA.

The LCC's with their added charges don't always work out as cheap.


No baggage charge, two pieces of hand luggage, free drinks, snack/meal and the back up of a major player in air travel. Plus, of course, clear pricing.


I use Monarch and Easyjet but refuse, at any price, to use Ryanair, I am afraid.

[Rwy in Sight]

In other words what to we consider essential on a flight - that we always buy on a low cost or appreciate on a full service carrier?

I take a printed boarding pass is an item on that list. As assigned seat maybe, a free glass of water?

Rwy in Sight

[PAXboy]

Hi folks, yes I missed the point on that good and proper!!! :oh: :confused: :uhoh: :ouch: :hmm: :rolleyes: :O Not sure how many tipples I'd had or what sort of mood I was in!!!!!! Just me opening my big mouth - as usual.

So I'll stay out of this thread now ...

[WHBM]

Since 99.99% of pax have shown (across the world) that price is the only point.
Patently incorrect. When I board a BA long-haul aircraft more than half the cabin space is laid out for premium classes. Where do those pax come from then ?

If everyone always went for the cheapest then the only supermarket chain in the UK that did well would be Asda. And there would be no hotels other than Holiday Inn Express :uhoh: But that doesn't happen. Please explain why not.

[farci]

There's a little known rule on the trains that you can hold more than one ticket, combined end on end, for a rail journey... and it's perfectly legal:
Cheap Train Tickets: How to find hidden fares... (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/cheap-train-tickets)

[PAXboy]

WHBM. I have already ruled myself out of this thread, so I cannot answer!

[easyflyer83]

Patently incorrect. When I board a BA long-haul aircraft more than half the cabin space is laid out for premium classes. Where do those pax come from then ?

If everyone always went for the cheapest then the only supermarket chain in the UK that did well would be Asda. And there would be no hotels other than Holiday Inn Express http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif But that doesn't happen. Please explain why not.

But you could argue that business/first on long haul is a completely different product to short haul economy.

WHBM was probably a little over exaggarant in his assessment but he is quite right in saying that price is king for the overwhelming majority of short haul journeys.......and also on a hell of a lot of long haul flights. Hence the situation we find ourselves in today. Even many business class passengers shop for the best deals and service in these classes, some would say, has deterioated over the years.

As for the actual topic in hand...

I don't believe that low cost carriers are whiter than white. I don't agree with the card charges that these (and some legacies) charge though I admit that some are worse than others. I also think that extra charges to print off your boarding card or check in at the airport are fair either.

However, we quite often forget the positives that the LCC's bring. i.e direct flights from local airports on some routes that probably wouldn't be operated if it wasn't for the loco's. They have expanded the market whichever way you look at it and whilst I an dubious as to whether they have enabled the poorest to fly, they have certainly enabled those who could afford to fly..... to fly more. I also don't subscribe to the constant bleating on about how in actual fact, full service is cheaper. I conceed that legacies have become more competitive, a bi product of the LCC's in itself, but more often than not the low cost option is the cheapest.

The ultra low cost path that FR has followed is taking things too far IMO and the constant attention seeking is annoying. The unavoidable charges are just crass. However, not all LCC's are like this. Call me biased if you like but Easyjet has the balance about right. Don't get me wrong, they aren't perfect and they still charge aroung £8 for using a card but extra's are optional. Theres no charge for checking in, either online or at the airport, and the only extra's that come close to being a neccessity are hold baggage and drinks/snacks. They fly to primary airports etc etc.

Flying isn't what it used to be, this coming from a 28 year old, and it's not going to change unfortunately.....however much we dislike the fact. To add insult to injury, full service economy flying short haul is nothing like it used to be either. Even when i started flying 6 and half years ago the change in onboard service was noticable after a couple of years on the job. I think someone made a great point about young people these days...... complimentary meals in economy on short flights would probably amaze them because it is something they just aren't used to. But remember, back then we used to pay a hell of a lot more...... today we pay less in real terms and whichever way you look at it that is down to the passengers insatiable hunger for cheap airfares.

[Katamarino]

I cannot understand the bizarre pricing models of the railways. In Holland, I pay €10.20 to get from The Hague to Amsterdam. I pay this whether I bought the ticket months in advance, or two minutes before boarding. What makes it so difficult for British trains to do the same?

[radeng]

Katamarino,

Privatisation done in the worst way possible to a railway system that was deliberately run down by encouraging car use and road building in the 50's, 60's and 70's. This led to line closures, underinvestment and eventually, too many bean counters not looking at the overall picture of what is good for UK plc.

[PAXboy]

Well, I'm not going to attempt to recover my statements from earlier as I just can't be @rsed to re-read the thread, recall what I meant and then rephrase BUT ... the question from Katamarino is easy to answer.

Because they can make more money.

You may know that the airline world uses a process called Yield Management, that is based on previous numbers that used a particular service and current demand. With each year that goes by, the system becomes more finely tuned.

The problem for us is that, we grew up knowing that busses and trains were flat fare and that aircraft were variable. After a lifetime of having this inculcated into national behaviour, it is highly disruptive to have train fares moved to variable.

Whilst I will always think carefully about taking a plane - due to the time and distance involved - I might just decide to take the train to London to go shopping, see a show or a friend. Now, I have to think twice. The more so when it is cheaper to go by car and if I take a passenger myself, then the cost benefit really moves in my favour.

However, it seems that the govt (both Labour and Conservative) want the train companies to make more money, so that they can reduce the amount of central subsidy. If only it worked that way ...