View Full Version : About this JAR-EASA transition...again
I while back there was a thread abou jar cpl(h) becoming atpl(h) vfr. I've been going through lasors and AESA(spanish authority) to get a couple of answers.
JAR–FCL 2.050 Crediting of flight time and
"(9) An applicant having passed the
theoretical knowledge examination for a
CPL(H) under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H).
(10) The holder of a CPL(H) gained
under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up
to and including Amendment 3 is credited with
the theoretical knowledge requirements for
Right, although it might seem pretty obvious(sorry for that)...i read (10) and my question is, if this was my case and i was issued this atpl theory credits, would i need to go thru IR theory exams since i already have atpl theory? Our civil aviation is not really helping here, as usual, it took 3 more years to add amendment 6 in our country. Thanks in advance guys!!!
2nd Dec 2011, 19:14
If you passed the theoretical exams (VFR AND IFR) under the above mentioned ammendment, you don´t need to sit an exam again...
But you will have to pass the test flight-and you´ll need to have a multi-pilot helicopter type rating BEFORE you can do the checkride....
Ah right, that's the bit i was looking for. I just hold a CPL(h) and i understood that with new rules i would have credit for atpl(h) theory and hoping not having to go thru more exams in case of pursuing an IR. Thanks for the head-ups, much appreciated...
2nd Dec 2011, 21:56
Hueyracer - can you quote a reference to the EASA Aircrew Regulation that allows this? Whilst it is true that CPL(H) exams passed or a CPL(H) gained under the earlier amendments to JAR-FCL 2 give theoretical knowledge credit for the issue of a JAA ATPL(H), I can find nothing in the Regulation or its Annexes to support the view that those credits will remain valid for the issue of an EASA ATPL(H).
I think everyone's working on the assumption that as EASA is underfunded and understaffed, nothing much will really happen to the regs.
If you only hold a CPL(H), you will have to do the IR theory to get the full ATPL(H). Otherwise it can morph into the ATPL(H)(VFR) if you ask nicely.
If you did the proper ATPL(H) TK before, that includes the IR.
FYI, there are no plans to do special exams or courses for the VFR ATPL, they will be produced on request from schools. Interestingly, it would appear that the "new" CPL(H) (with a lot of stuff missing) together with IR will still count as the equivalent of ATPL(H), so you will not get to study INS, the Super Puma in M & B, many other items, and still get the ATP.
3rd Dec 2011, 05:58
Sorry, i do not have any information about the EASA-regs regarding this "credit"-i was relating to the "credit policy" that was mentioned in the opening post..
You only get this "credit", if you passed the exam between 2002 and 2007 (AFAIR)-because this is the time period where the agreements were in place.
Everyone coming after that is a different story...
3rd Dec 2011, 11:12
I did my CPL exams in 2008 still under Amd.2 of the JAR FCL 2 and got the ATPL-VFR credit on a paper. It meant for the IR-H in 2010 I only had to do four assignments:
-Flight performance and planning
-Instruments (though in the german JAR-FCL 2 this assignment is not officially listed for the ATPL-VFR theory credit holder!)
Should be a similar story in the rest of JAA-land!?
Eivissa, that sounds interesting enought. I did my cpl theory on 2008(Spain)also, but i don't really know under which ammendment it was. I'll keep bothering our CAA, although i'm not hoping them to be really helpful. Again, thanks for the hints...
3rd Dec 2011, 15:03
It might be worth mentioning that Ive started the CPL training in 2007, so that could have made a difference to the German CAA (LBA). Though I never heard about the timeframe that hueyracer mentioned. I only focussed on the fact that I did my training under ammendment 2 which was active until November 2008 (dont quote me on that one). Germany then jumped streight to ammendment 6.
In your case the thing should be just as streight forward. In 2008 Spain was at ammendment 3 of the JAR-FCL 2. Now your problem will be that the Spanish authorities seem to have no f***ing idea how to read the JAR-FCL/BOE! I have been in contact with them as well and they needed weeks to respond only to tell me that they dont agree with the way the german authorities handle and follow the JAR-FCL2.
For you the relevant section is JAR-FCL 2.050 and Annex 4 to it, the BOE section is just the same. Print out those two sections, highlight the relevant sentences and send it over to the DCAC or whatever they are called these days. Say you want your theory credit for the "ATPL visual". Thats how it worked for some of my colleagues in Spain. If they acknowledge it (and they should), you only have to do 3-4 assignments to get the full ATPL-H theory credit.
The guy to talk to should be José María García Bautista (jmgbautista@<hidden>) if he is still in charge.
Good luck!! :ok:
Zillion thanks for the help mate. Will catch up the contact you gave and start from there and see what i get. If all goes well, i´ll try to go thru theory next year, then i´ll have three to complete IR flight time. As i hold a multi-engine TR now i might save some pennies when the time comes. I´ll let you know. Again, THANks!
25th Sep 2012, 10:15
Looked through CAP 804 with no definitive answer.
ATPL's completed in 2005, Current CPL(H), IR theory sat again in 2011 (ATPL's expired to the issue of IR). On completing an IR practical course does the CPL+IR still count as ATPL(H) once the multi-pilot and night flying requirements have been met?
I know this used to be the case, but not sure whether EASA has changed this?
It has changed - the combination of CPLH/IR is no longer equivalent to the Full ATPLH.
Why did you have to do the CPL(H) again - shirley your atpl would have lapsed to a cplh anyway if you didn't get the ir?
25th Sep 2012, 13:11
Hi Paco I didn't have to do the CPL again, I'll try an clarify:
2005 - ATPL(H) exams with which I completed the CPL(H) and FI and started working.
2011 - Re-sat IR exams as ATPL's expired.
Now - looking at what (if anything) in addition to the IR practical would need to be achieved to complete the ATPL(H) with EASA... I was hoping that as I finished the CPL on the ATPL exams that they were still credited towards the frozen ATPL as used to be the case. I know a few other people in the same scenario. If this is not the case do you have any idea what additional would be required?
Your "CPL" is amendment 3 by the look of it, so the IR would have refreshed your ATP back to its former state and it looks like that is in date. Now you need the flying hours and the MCC I believe.
As there are so few helicopter MCC places (watch this space! :)) I'm told the CAA will accept a fixed wing one.
25th Sep 2012, 13:58
Much appreciated - I did email FCLweb and ask but response time is 10+ days at the moment so asked here too. I believe (an hope!) that that's correct :ok:
25th Sep 2012, 16:00
AFAIR from a talk to one of the German CAA guys, the theorie papers are only valid for 7 years..
No source for that......just double check it..
25th Sep 2012, 16:22
Reference to the 7 years is found in JAR FCL2
Enjoy the reading :ok:
25th Sep 2012, 16:40
JAR–FCL 2.495 Acceptance period
(a) A pass in the theoretical knowledge examinations given in accordance with JAR–FCL 2.490 will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(H) or IR(H) during the 36 months from the date of gaining a Pass in all the required examination papers.
[(b) A pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations given in accordance with JAR-FCL 2.490 will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(H) during the 36 months from the date of gaining a Pass in all the required examination papers and will remain valid indefinitely towards the grant of the ATPL(H) provided that the applicant has a valid type rating entered in the CPL(H).]
[ ][(c)]Provided that an IR(H) is obtained in accordance with (a) above, a pass in the ATPL(H)[/IR] theoretical knowledge examination will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR(H) entered in the CPL(H) for the issuance of an ATPL(H).
So as I see it, by these regs, and under part (b) - once you obtain a CPL(H) within 3 years of completing your ATPL(H) exams your ATPL's remain valid indefinitely towards the issue of ATPL(H) as long as you have a valid type on the CPL - however if you go greater than 36 months after passing the exams without completing the IR too you need to re-sit at least the IR(H) exams.
Part (c), as I understand it, is relevant to those who hold, or have held and IR, essentially saying, if you let it lapse you have 7 years to get it current again for the issue of ATPL(H) after which you would need to re-sit the exams - I assume this applies to those who don't comply with (b) - i.e. you have valid a CPL having sat the CPL exams, but then added the IR(H) theory & practical which will qualify you for ATPL(H) up to 7 years from the date of the most recent IR renewal? If you complied with (b) by taking the ATPL(H) exams you have the ATPL credited indefinitely right? so this wouldn't make sense
So is JAR FCL 2 still in place, or at least does it still stand WRT licenses/exams taken when it was in place? If it has been superseded would the new regulations only apply to those taking exams from now moving forwards?
25th Sep 2012, 17:15
After contacting the CAA, I was advised that under EASA you now only need to resit 4 exams if you have gained a CPL(H) but not a IR(H) in the 3 years after completion of the ATPL exams to regain the IR credits back for another 3 years.
Taken from CAP 804
4.2 An applicant for an IR(H) having passed the relevant theoretical examinations for an ATPL(H) VFR is required to pass the following examination subjects:
– Air Law
– Flight Planning and Flight Monitoring
– Radio Navigation
– IFR Communications
I hope this is correct.
That's for the ATPL(H)(VFR). You are only exempt Met and HF if you have a CPL(H). If yours is an amendment 3 CPL(H) (pre 2007-ish) that would be the same as the ATPL(H)(VFR)
26th Sep 2012, 08:20
I am still unclear which exams I need to do, is it the IR exams minus Met and HP or the 4 in my last post?
My CPL(H) was issued in 2010 if that helps.
Well the final authority is the CAA, but it sounds like you will need to do the 5 if your licence is Amendment 6
26th Sep 2012, 12:30
I will see if I can get it in writing as to want I need to do, then I will maybe give you a shout for a G/S course.
26th Sep 2012, 16:06
I sat 14 JAA ATPL exams in 2009 that have since lapsed. I am aware that to get these current again I must retake certain exams again ( at Bristol GS or wherever...)
However, now that they are 'EASA' exams...do I maintain the credits for my previous 'JAA' exams, or do I need to take all 14 'EASA' exams again?
I.E can I use my old JAA exams that are valid, and only retake the 'EASA' ones I need to retake, or I need a whole new set?
You can refresh it with the IR exams - in your case exempt Met and HF by the look of it.
For anyone who has sat ATPL(H) exams in the past, and holds a CPL looking to upgrade in the future to ATPL this may be of some clarification. It's a few questions to the CAA on the issue with their responses.
In reference to your email regarding the validity periods for ATPL(H) and IR(H) theoretical knowledge examinations, firstly and in clarification JAR-FCL 2 ceased in the UK on 17th September 2012 and has been superseded by the EASA Aircrew Regulation (EU Reg 1178/2011) which is now law. The requirements of JAR remain mostly unchanged but there are some minor differences.
I have set out the responses to your queries but am using the current Part-FCL requirements which are applicable;
FCL.025 Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences
(c) Validity period
(1) The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid:
(i) for the issue of a light aircraft pilot licence, a private pilot licence, a sailplane pilot licence or a balloon pilot licence, for a period of 24 months;
(ii) for the issue of a commercial pilot licence or instrument rating (IR), for a period of 36 months;
(iii) the periods in (i) and (ii) shall be counted from the day when the pilot successfully completes the theoretical knowledge examination, in accordance with (b)(2).
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.
1. I completed the full ATPL(H) exams in 2005 - and subsequently was granted my CPL(H) in 2007.
I interpret FCL as saying, that my ATPL(H) theory is now valid indefinitely towards the grant of ATPL(H) because I was granted a CPL within the 36 months, and have since continued to maintain my CPL and a valid type rating.
Correct but only for the ATPL(H), this is not applicable to the IR which must be maintained within its own validities.
Am I still assured that under JAR-FCL 2.495 (b) my ATPL(H) exams will remain valid indefinitely towards the grant of the ATPL(H) provided that I have a valid type rating entered in the CPL(H)"
As above, yes, however this is conditional on you having held a valid type rating within the 7 year period prior to application.
3. People have suggested that the exams only have a 7 year validity for the issue of ATPL(H) (not whats suggested if you comply with JAR-FCL 2.495 (b)) - am I reading this incorrectly or are they are referring to what is found in JAR-FCL 2.495 (c)
Yes, for ATPL(H), however the IR must be obtained within the 36 month period from passing the final ATPL(H) (under amendment 3 of JAR-FCL 2 or ATPL(H)IR exams under Part-FCL). As you have passed the IR exams in 2011, these remain valid for 36 month for the addition of an IR to your current CPL(H).
It must understood that for Helicopters, the ATPL and the IR are no longer conjoined as in the past. It is possible to hold an ATPL(H) VFR and add the IR at a later point if required.
JAR-FCL 2.495 (c) states - Provided that an IR(H) is obtained in accordance with (a) above, a pass in the ATPL(H)[/IR] theoretical knowledge examination will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR(H) entered in the CPL(H) for the issuance of an ATPL(H)
There are a number of people in the same situation as me asking for clarification on this, and whether new EASA regulations have changed this or if the JAR FCL 2 still applies to us, given it was in effect when we sat our exams and were granted our licenses.
The text of FCL.025 (above) applies, although it is the same as the provisions of JAR-FCL.
The main question for me is - in my case does my ATPL credit still remain valid indefinitely, so following the completion of the IR I simply need to meet the other hourly/MCC requirements and assuming my CPL and IR remain valid there is no time-frame in which I must be presented for the ATPL test?
Yes. Although you may want to re-sit the ATPL exams again in the future purely for the pleasure and to refresh your knowledge?? He has a sense of humour :D
if you could confirm whether all of the above is true then I will be able to pass on that information to my colleagues who are asking so we all have a better idea of what should apply.
Confirmed, with the clarifications as above.
I hope this information satisfactorily answers your query.
17th Mar 2013, 20:52
Hi, I will say sorry now for what will be a long post.
I have a slightly different situation to Auchy and I have asked my questions to the CAA but I'm still waiting for a reply. Can anyone please help.
1998 I passed the old UK National ATPL(H) exams and in 1999 I had a UK National CPL(H) issued with out an IR.
2001 I had a JAA CPL(H) issued on the basis of my national CPL(H)
2005 I wrote to the CAA and explained I wanted to add an IR to my JAA CPL(H) but I also needed an ATPL(H) theory credit as one day I would like to fly offshore.
The CAA told me if I completed the IR(H) theory exams, IR(H) flight training and flight test thus adding an IR(H) to my JAA CPL(H) I would under ammendment 3 of JAR FCL2 have an ATPL(H) theory credit. This was confirmed again in early 2007.
2007 - 2009 I completed the IR theory, flight training etc and had my IR(H)issued on my JAA CPL(H) in late 2009.
I have always had a valid type rating on my JAA CPL(H) and my IR has not lapsed for more than 7 years, in fact it is still valid.
So my questions are;
1) Is my ATPL(H) theory credit still valid now the UK CAA have changed to EASA?
2) If my ATPL(H) theory credit is no longer valid, which theory exams do I need to sit to revalidate it.
I have looked at CAP 804 Sec 4, part L Ap1 which refers to theory credits.
I can only find theory credits for CPL(H) holders wanting to gain an ATPL(H)
I can not find any theory credits for CPL(H) IR(H) holders wanting an ATPL(H)
Curtis E Carr
17th Mar 2013, 21:40
I am unable to answer your first question.
With regard to your second question, the reason that you cannot find the theoretical knowledge requirements for the holder of a CPL(H)/IR to ATPL(H) is that an ATPL(H) can be issued without an IR(H). It is my opinion that, if you have to retake any exams it will be all the ATPL(H) subjects less Air Law, P of F (H) and VFR Communications.
1. Yes. You have an amendment 3 CPL(H) + an IR. The CPL(H) is the equivalent of the ATPL(H) VFR. When it runs out you should be issued with an EASA licence.
2. I believe - Law & ATC Procedures, IFR Comms, RNAV, Flight Planning. You may also have to do instruments, but unlikely (these are the IR refresh exams).
18th Mar 2013, 06:56
So what about someone who has held a UK ATPLH (without IR) since 1991 and renewed it last year?
I don't have a valid type rating (original licence was issued on Gazelle and R22) but renewed last year as a QSP.
I know I need a type rating and IR to get an EASA licence but is that it or do I have to sit all the exams again?
18th Mar 2013, 07:55
I would not have thought that an EASA ATPL(H) and IR was a requirement to fly SH in Afghanistan?
18th Mar 2013, 13:14
Not enough time left to serve to amortize the cost of a Chinook conversion - sorry to disappoint;)
21st Mar 2013, 15:25
Ref my post above (Post 27) I had some very good news from the CAA today that my ATPL(H) theory credit is still valid.
Thanks for your help guys, TTTE.