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Grob Queen
28th Nov 2011, 19:03
Had my first briefing on PFLs from my QFI yesterday. We weren't able to fly as the wind was way beyond limits so I haven't yet tried it in practice.

However, field choice. I was obviously briefed on the dos and don'ts, but taking into consideration the obvious requirements to avoid obstacles, Rule 5, wind direction etc, I wondered, what would be the preferred choice of crop or stock for fellow ppruners to land in? and why?

Oh and for this scenario, there is no fallow field or hard standing to land in!

billiboing
28th Nov 2011, 19:14
The way I remember is

WiND- Which way is wind blowing- if high enough remember there are more fields within gliding reach downwind than upwind!. Pick a field into wind!
Size- Look for the biggest first!
Slope- Landing uphill ok provided not too steep- land downhill and ya wont!
Surface. Short crop ok- land with furrows, Rape- forget it!
Stock- Avoid the cows!
Obstructions- Look for wires (or the poles at least!)

'India-Mike
28th Nov 2011, 19:37
Shape, size, surface, slope, surroundings. Rule 5 doesn't feature in my decision-making as it won't when one happens for real. And I always choose one that I could get into if I had to, and treat every PFL as if I might have to use the field should the engine not respond for the go-around.

On the Chipmunks I instruct in this is a not uncommon occurrence (despite mentioning it during the briefing) as the front-seater can catch the mixture with the cuff of his nice flying gloves, advancing both throttle and mixture lever together for the go-around (on the Chipmunk forward mixture=lean mixture!)

BackPacker
28th Nov 2011, 20:01
Any field that looks reasonably "clean", is easily reachable from my present altitude and is long enough, preferably into the wind, is OK.

Don't go through a long winded decision making process but trust your instincts. And unless the field turns out to be completely hopeless, stick with your decision. A good landing in a bad field is more survivable than a bad landing in a good field.

Also remember that as soon as the engine quits (for real), the plane is no longer yours but belongs to the insurance company. The objective is to be able to walk away, not to save the plane.

B4aeros
28th Nov 2011, 20:14
Rule 5 doesn't apply to actual landings.

Stock is never good - if at all possible, avoid fields with livestock.

Crop fields are OK provided:


you land parallel with the wheelings (deal with any crosswind)
your wingtips & elevator are higher than the crop.

The idea is to round out & land on the top of the crop - it might end in a heavy landing but the undercarriage can cope with it as long as you don't go over any deep ruts during the ground run. Tall crops catching on the Grob's low wings can result in a damaging groundloop.

The only way to judge crop height is to assess how much of the ground you can see through the crop. If you can clearly see the earth, the crop is still small. If you can only see the ground in the tractor wheelings, the crop is maybe 2 or 3 feet high. Once the crop covers the wheelings, you should expect a low wing aircraft to be damaged during the landing, but the pilots should be OK.

A couple of years ago I saw a Cessna in an oilseed rape field. The crop must have been about 4 feet tall, almost to the top of the cowling. The clearly visible ground run was impressively short but the aircraft looked to be undamaged. That was early summer, when the crop was still green. Once oilseed rape turns brown it becomes a thick impenetrable mass that would probably flip any aircraft upside down.

thing
28th Nov 2011, 20:31
As everyone else has said. I took me ages being a glider jock to get it into my head that a sucessful field landing in a powered aircraft is one where you and the passengers walk away unhurt; whereas a field landing in a glider is just a normal landing where any damage to the glider is bad news.

I was always trying to do a 'glider' field landing when I first started doing PFL's instead of looking at maximising the chances of being unhurt and sod the aeroplane.

mary meagher
28th Nov 2011, 20:56
Quite right. When landing a glider in a field, you have plenty of time. Deciding at 1,500 feet, you have at least 30 to 1 glide ratio, and so about five minutes to plan and decide. No messing around trying to call Mayday, or attempting to restart the engine. So the choice of field can be carefully made according to the rules mentioned above.

But if the donkey stops in a power plane, the field picks you. Might even be a rooftop, or a clump of trees. Main thing, EFATO, DO NOT TRY TO TURN BACK TO THE AIRFIELD. It is the spin off the lousy turn that will spoil your day. Possible to land and survive on nearly any kind of terrain, forest, lake, housing estate if you land with full control of the aircraft, as slowly as possible.

However, using a power line as arrestor cable tends to spoil the approach.

Big Pistons Forever
29th Nov 2011, 00:51
A good landing in a bad field is more survivable than a bad landing in a good field.
.

Words to live by. Flying schools IMO spend put far too much emphasis on some elaborate protocol for selecting a field, especially arcane discussions about what kinds of crops are best, how to deal with furrows, water puddles, farm animals, etc etc etc. The criteria I teach for for field selection is
simple

-Close (so you are sure you can make it)

-Open (as in no obstacles on the approach or big rocks walls ditches etc on the field)

-Big (to give you more options if you are high or low) and

-Flat, in that order.

And remember better is the enemy of good enough. Go to the first "good enough" field you see and then concentrate on flying the aircraft to your chosen touch down point.

Finally a personal pet peeve is flying schools spend a lot of time about what to do when the engine fails but hardly any time talking about what to do with a partial power loss, which are far more common than total abrupt engine failures. In any case about 80% of all cases of total loss of engine power are directly caused by the actions, or inactions of the pilot, so I think flight schools should spend a lot more time working on students preventing the engine from stopping in the first place, rather than just what to do when the engine suddenly stops.

A and C
29th Nov 2011, 05:05
As an instructor I am carefull about the location of my students PFL's but if the practice is going well and into a good clear field away from people or livestock I am more than happy to go around at about 50ft.

Doing so lets the student know that they could have got safely into the field, having a blank "not below 500ft rule" makes the whole practice a joke as the student is never sure that he/she would have got into the field without having an accident.

Remember Rule 5 is a rule, not being able to land an aircraft without power is a death sentence.

Pilot.Lyons
29th Nov 2011, 07:37
When i did got about 100ft from field and thought.... "is he going to tell me when to power up?!)
The wind was bad.... From my ass

But now, i wouldnt have wanted it any other way
Just like when i was going solo on a runway with 12 inches of snow and the only way you knew where to land was from my tyre tracks from take off!

I enjoyed training more i think

IO540
29th Nov 2011, 08:20
I also think that, taking the "90+ % case" of flying over countryside, the best thing is to turn roughly into wind (that alone is likely to make a huge difference to the energy which one needs to lose on landing) and pick a series of fields that are lined up along your heading.

It is much easier to control azimuth than it is to control your rate of descent, the latter of which will in any case be largely determined for you.

The more technical method, also taught by the military (low key, high key, etc) is to pick a field nearly below and follow one of several specific procedures to fly a circuit into it. That's great if you are good and current and practiced, and has the advantage that you are better placed to survey it for obstacles etc, but I think most PPLs will not make such a good job of it when under pressure.

I know which method I would pick.

chrisN
29th Nov 2011, 09:53
One thing to add to the above. It was posted that “The only way to judge crop height is to assess how much of the ground you can see through the crop. If you can clearly see the earth, the crop is still small. If you can only see the ground in the tractor wheelings, the crop is maybe 2 or 3 feet high. Once the crop covers the wheelings, you should expect a low wing aircraft to be damaged during the landing, but the pilots should be OK.”

There is another way. If the wind is significant, wheat and barley (and even long grass) show waves of windswept tops running across the field. If you can’t see them, the crop is short (or it is not windy). If you can, the crop is long enough to make at least some difference.

Regarding stock, avoid if possible.

Horses – the landowner will be really upset if they are expensive and/or in foal. You may thtink horses are expendabale compared with people, but the owner may not agree. I was told once that a prematurely dropped foal could cost £500,000. Dunno if that’s true.

One cow in a field is not a cow, it’s a bull. Avoid if at all possible. If not, once out of the aircraft, hide behind it until the bull seems unlikely to be interested in you.

A lot of cows in a field may include a bull. (Been there etc.) Avoid eye contact with the bull should you have to go into such a field. Cows sometimes change where they want to eat, and if you pick the empty side of a field to land in, they may suddenly move into it. Happened to a friend of mine. Ditto sheep – and that happened to me once. (We both just got away with it).

The crucial thing, as said by others, is to maximise safety of people, not the aircraft. (While glider field landings are normal, and usually uneventful, in the end it is still a piece of sporting equipment that can be mended or replaced. People not so easily.)

In extreme cases:

If the field is short, it is better to hit the far end slowly, having lost some energy, than hedge/wires etc. at the near end at flying speed.

If landing towards unavoidable trees, aim the nose between them and let the wings hit the trunks.

Hedges are not as soft as you might think. In July, a glider pilot had to choose between a groundloop or going into a hedge. He chose the latter, thinking it would cushion his arrest. Wrong – the nose of the glider hit a stem/trunk of one of the bushes, and resulted in really bad leg fractures. A ground loop to put a wing into it (if it even got that far) would have damaged the glider but probably avoided pilot injury (been there, too.)

(I have landed in a glider in over 100 fields, so write with a bit of experience, though not all apposite to power emergency landings.)

Chris N

Gertrude the Wombat
29th Nov 2011, 10:44
I also think that, taking the "90+ % case" of flying over countryside, the best thing is to turn roughly into wind (that alone is likely to make a huge difference to the energy which one needs to lose on landing) and pick a series of fields that are lined up along your heading.

Round my way this is known as the East Anglia Method:

(1) Set up a circuit

(2) Work out which field you are going to end up in

(3) Tell the instructor/examiner that that's the one you've been aiming at all along

jollyrog
29th Nov 2011, 12:49
Even better, just fly a circuit, ignore all the fields and draw a mental picure of your your favourite home aerdrome approach. Fly it as you would.

At 500 feet, ask the instructor if you should apply power now. Apart from that question, don't communicate with him at all during the circuit.

Works every time.

Heston
29th Nov 2011, 13:04
Which is why instructors are trained always to ask the stude to nominate the field at the start of the exercise!

Gertrude's East Anglia method works for real, of course, as well as for PFLs (at least where there are lots of big fields - hence the name)

H

Pull what
29th Nov 2011, 13:04
GQ, to answer your question-crop or stock.

Stock is never good - if at all possible, avoid fields with livestock.
Not quite correct- sheep & horses are no real problem if they move out of the way! Avoid ostriches, cows & bulls.
Crop is OK if you land with the furrows, if you land across them you will probably overturn.
Most students seem to think they need to pick a field that looks like a 1000 metre private strip and is perfect-you just need the best clear area which is not going to damage you!

BackPacker
29th Nov 2011, 13:32
sheep & horses are no real problem if they move out of the way!

In case of an engine failure your aircraft has just gone completely quiet apart from some wind noise. And even if the animals see you coming, they will probably not recognise you for what danger you are and move out of the way. So I would not bet on animals conveniently creating a nice clear landing strip for you in your chosen field.

So in that respect any type of livestock in the field is bad news, unless you manage to avoid them.

Having said that (but now I'm a glider pilot talking), if you have the choice, sheep and horses are better (less bad) than cows and ostriches, indeed. Not because of the damage during the landing roll, but because cows and ostriches are very inquisitive and will damage the aircraft while trying to investigate what just landed in "their" field. Horses and sheep are apparently less inquisitive, or are more easily shooed away. At least, that's what I've been told - I have yet to make my first outlanding.

Genghis the Engineer
29th Nov 2011, 13:54
I did a precautionary landing into a field full of cows once, when I returned to fly out a few hours later the prop had clearly been used as a scratching post and the exhaust as a lick.

There was, I think, an Auster a couple of years ago which did something similar and most of the fabric got eaten off.

G

thing
29th Nov 2011, 15:10
Cows are notorious for eating fabric/dope finishes.

shortstripper
29th Nov 2011, 19:12
Yep ... cows have very abrasive tounges! They're very inquistive and will destroy an aircraft in seconds! However, they're lovely and really don't mean to spoil your day. Once they're bored with the wreckage you'll find them layed around chewing the cud wondering what the next distraction will be :\

SS

Grob Queen
29th Nov 2011, 20:53
Hello all,
Thanks for all you replies so far, some useful thoughts there! Hadn't thought about the Bull issue!:ooh:

The more technical method, also taught by the military (low key, high key, etc) is to pick a field nearly below and follow one of several specific procedures to fly a circuit into it. That's great if you are good and current and practiced, and has the advantage that you are better placed to survey it for obstacles etc, but I think most PPLs will not make such a good job of it when under pressure.

In response to IO540 and the military "technical method" ref hi key/Low Key, "ARF" etc; this is indeed the way which I am taught. I admit that the theory of it sounds complicated, but it seems to make sense to aim for a set point in the field and then work your circuit in accordance with landing near that point

A and C, I like your point ref Rule 5 and totally see your point. When I quizzed my QFI on Rule 5 during the briefing, he implied that it was a rather grey area with PFLs. maybe as long as you are not over a person, structure, vehicle (Ostrich?!?) PFLs are OK. Will see when he tells me to go-around!

The actual physicality of the circuit seems to me pretty much like the glide circuit on an airfield - am I right?! My lunchtime reading this week is PFLs and hope to fly them for the first time on Friday...

Don't know what other flying clubs/schools do, but speaking personally, my QFI and I do spend time discussing why the engine could fail and how to try and prevent the engine from stopping... carb icing, FEEL cx etc...its just that we are usually doing so when in the Mess or clubhouse!

GQ

chrisN
29th Nov 2011, 21:33
Quote: “ . . . he implied that it was a rather grey area with PFLs”

I would be interested to know what is grey about it. If not landing, I thought Rule 5 was quite unambiguous.

Chris N.

Sensible Flyer
29th Nov 2011, 21:44
Speaking as an ex glider pilot and student PPL, it's not always that easy to tell the difference between various crops, and field suitability in general. Depends on all sorts of factors such as the wind, sunlight etc but mostly in my limited experience the stress level of the pilot is likely to be the deciding factor.

I have retrieved gliders from the most appalling fields. One had a 10% dowslope (they were lucky to get it down at all). The pilot landed there because they had seen another glider in the same field so assumed it was OK - but the first pilot ended up there because he'd forgotten his sun hat and had no water. Suffering somewhat from the effects of the sun he'd realised far too late his day was going to end in a field and accepted the least worst option.

Another friend landed in a boggy meadow with 2 foot high scrub - that was a "carry out". It was getting dark, stress had set in. He didn't relaise until the last few seconds that it was not the best choice.

On the converse, many people end up in fields that are better than some gliding site airfields. the deciding factor has always been that they have made the decision early enough that they aren't overloaded an stressed.

I myself had a particularly memorable field landing cocked up my GPS settings for a task and forgot to enter the coordinates for the last leg. At the end of a fun but tiring flight I started to panic and faff rather than take a minute to look at the chart and work out. Worse I was at the edge of the Cotswolds so hardly the best area for a field landing. Fortunately I made a decision in good time to forget trying to get back and find a safe field. There was one shortish straight into wind, half "green" and half brown. I convinced myself the green half was fruit bushes of some kind (backed up in my mind by some machinery which looked like fruit packing equipment) so went for the brown, hoping it was smooth. Doing my circuit I spotted on base leg power line poles, so ended up with a fairly narrow slot in which to land. Turned out to be the most finely tilled field I have ever seen, with the smoothest surface possible, baked hard by the sun. The green half was in fact grass. It was the farmwers new polo pitch, and I was told I would have been in deep trouble if I'd landed on that!

I often wonder how that episode would have turned out had I made my a decision to land out a little later. Would I have gone for a different field, one that was hilly or rocky? Would I have gone straight into the field I landed in? If so would I have seen the power lines in time to do anything about it? I don't know, but doubt it would have ended with a flawless landing and a smug taxi up to the gate at the far end.

What's the moral in all this? For me I do the PFL drills as I am taught. But if it ever happens for real my primary concern will be to modify that drill in order to reduce my stress levels ASAP to make sure my decision making and flying skills are as good as they can be. If I'm at a realitively low level, that might mean dispensing with attempting to restart and concentrate on the flying instead. Might be better off picking the least worst field, thinking about where to aim to touchdown and positioning for that, and then touching down with as little energy as possible.
I would avoid livestock (in particular sheep, a sudden shadow can cause them to leap into your path). But really the things that are going to kill you are ditches, power lines, severe slopes, landing downwind and running into the hedge/wall.
Landing in tall crop will trash your aircraft but it will not kill or seriously injure you so frankly the crop would be the lest of my considerations, particularly given that engine failure will likely be a high stress situation and therefore difficult to identify crops. And in any case what are you going to do about it with perhaps 3 minutes left until you hit the deck, far less if you start significant manouvering? Might be better off to brief the pax for a rough landing and make the best of it?

I suppose we will all have different views. There will be times the drill is absolutely the right thing to do, but there will be times when it is absolutely not the right thing to do. All IMHO.

stiknruda
29th Nov 2011, 22:03
Jeez - bulls do get some bad press from you glider-types!

I'm generally equally as wary of a cow with a calf at foot, esp if you have a small dog with you - probably not a factor with a glider!

Stik

Grob Queen
30th Nov 2011, 14:50
Thankyou P Boyall, that sounds like the answer to what my instructor was referring to when he said that there were "Grey areas" wrt PFLs and Rule 5.

I think my instructor may also have been referring to whether PFLs do or do not come into "Normal Aviation Practice". Logic would have told me that they did......:confused:

Anyway, i'll know more when I've flown some PFLs with him....

GQ

mary meagher
30th Nov 2011, 15:05
Good point raised that the more likely happening is a loss of power rather than a dead stop! In the Supercub, 2,000' over Banbury, the examiner, who I know to be one of the most crafty and knowlegable of pilots, told me that I now had only half the usual power, and what was I going to do about it?

I was already aimed at the airfield, 7 miles away, so decided to carry on, as not yet losing a lot of height....and as the wind was not all that strong, I made a straight in downwind landing. That surprised the examiner, who had expected me to go for a complete circuit and screw up a final turn....

But in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking. Other things being equal, it is worth considering. In fact, any instructors reading this, have you tried it lately?

Big Pistons Forever
30th Nov 2011, 15:58
Good point raised that the more likely happening is a loss of power rather than a dead stop! In the Supercub, 2,000' over Banbury, the examiner, who I know to be one of the most crafty and knowlegable of pilots, told me that I now had only half the usual power, and what was I going to do about it?

I was already aimed at the airfield, 7 miles away, so decided to carry on, as not yet losing a lot of height....and as the wind was not all that strong, I made a straight in downwind landing. That surprised the examiner, who had expected me to go for a complete circuit and screw up a final turn....

But in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking. Other things being equal, it is worth considering. In fact, any instructors reading this, have you tried it lately?

The Cessna 150/152/172 POH's explicitly allow landings with up to 10 knots of tailwind component. I try to get all of my CPL's to do at least one max component tailwind landing. This gives them the feel of what a downwind approach looks like as well as the actual experience landing with a tailwind.

With respect to partial power failures, my experience is almost no one knows what the approximate minimum RPM (or Manifold Pressure) their aircraft requires to maintain level flight. In the event of a partial engine failure, you should be able to look at the power gauges and know right away whether you can continue or whether you are going down, as the decision making process will be different for the two possibilities.

Jan Olieslagers
30th Nov 2011, 17:27
[[off topic]]
in the US, at gliderports, gliders and tugs land downwind all the time, to save walking

And so do their counterparts at LFNA Gap, and even more worrying so do the paradroppers there too in Twin Otters and Turbo Porters. Makes one prefer NOT to land at the a/d if suddenly faced with a power outage, especially if/when flying NORDO.

SEP Flyer
30th Nov 2011, 17:41
Originally Posted by mary meagher
Good point raised that the more likely happening is a loss of power rather than a dead stop! In the Supercub, 2,000' over Banbury, the examiner, who I know to be one of the most crafty and knowlegable of pilots, told me that I now had only half the usual power, and what was I going to do about it?

During a checkride a few months back with an instructor in a C152, we were climbing at full power (after a stalling exercise) and about 15 miles away from the airfield, when he told me to imagine the throttle cable had snapped, so the engine was kept at full power - the cloud base was at about 3,000ft, we were practically back at 3,000 and the airspeed got faster and faster - and I am VFR only. What should I do?

As ppl training seems to concentrate on loss of engine power and how to deal with it, it did throw me! (I'm a low hours ppl so am still learning a lot!)

The answer was of course simple (ok, the instructor told me) - full flaps to reduce speed, fly back to your airfield, then full idle cut off to stop engine and do a glide approach.

It was a very good example to me of having something thrown at you that is completely unexpected and not covered in basic training!

Jan Olieslagers
30th Nov 2011, 18:02
Couldn't you have reduced power by twiddling the mixture and/or by switching to one single magneto, too?

((but I do realise it is much more easy to type this at my leisure than to think of it at unawares and under stress!))

SEP Flyer
30th Nov 2011, 18:31
What about VFe? Seems a bit dodgy to me, unless you get those flaps down sharpish (or sling it into a steep climb then put the flaps down).

Yes, you're right - he did say that I should climb to get speed down then extend flaps - we did pop up into cloud for a few seconds, thankfully he was next to me so done safely!

thing
30th Nov 2011, 19:26
It was a very good example to me of having something thrown at you that is completely unexpected and not covered in basic training! Interesting that. My immediate thought would be to fly back to the airfield at full power and stooge around until it ran out of fuel then do a glide landing.

Grob Queen
30th Nov 2011, 19:50
Interesting reading the thread change (not that i'm complaining, its an interesting one!!) I suppose you cannot prepare for all eventualities, but I guess PFLs, glide and flapless circuits all prepare the pilot for the USUAL emergencies.

On the emergency front I have so far also covered the Emergency break and later on i'm promised maximum rate turns. But on a Skills Test, I would hope that the examiner does not throw something really unexpected at the student? Any examiners out there want to assure me that they wouldn't for a Skills Test??

Thing - Fly back to the airfield and stooge around - .....don't know about yours, but if I stooged around in our MATZ just burning fuel, I think the Tower may have something to say...especially if there is a fast jet or slightly nutty King Air pilot in the vicinity... :\

thing
30th Nov 2011, 20:03
But all of your nutty Bling Airs are usually in my vicinity....:ok:

You would of course call Pan in an eventuality like that.

GeeWhizz
30th Nov 2011, 20:08
If you call a Pan-Pan you can do whatever you like at places like Cranwell and Waddington, and pretty much everywhere else ;) Stuck go-go button = fun :D

Edit: FWIW I'd position in the overhead cut the mixture, carb heat on, and do an AFL to the runway (if capacity permits the grass on the Northern at Cranwell perhaps? Wouldn't want to Black the runway in use if possible) if it happened for real. At full power flying level in a straight line flying at a speed within the caution range isn't going to be an issue (upon reaching Vne I'm unsure, but a climb will sort that out).

Grob Queen
30th Nov 2011, 20:49
Ohhhh, yesssss, silly me! That just proves that I haven't taken my FTROL yet doesn't it, of course the call of Pan Pan would be made!!

Geewhizz - I take your point about not wishing to black the main runway at one of her maj's airfields, but our North airfield is quite small and on good weekends practically always has gliders on it! We also have a grass strip and my instructor has indeed suggested when practising glide circuits that it may be better sometimes to go for the grass strip in a real emergency.

Oh, and our Bling Airs just like to spread their favours around...wouldn't want other stations to feel they were missing out!!!;)

GeeWhizz
30th Nov 2011, 21:16
I take your point about not wishing to black the main runway at one of her maj's airfields, but our North airfield is quite small and on good weekends practically always has gliders on it! We also have a grass strip and my instructor has indeed suggested when practising glide circuits that it may be better sometimes to go for the grass strip in a real emergency.

Fair point. Frankly if my capacity was maxed out with an emergency (as it probably would be as well as some uncomfortable squelching in my pants) I'd black any runway in the country if it meant my passengers and I lived, runways can be replaced and my face is more important ;)

Grob Queen
30th Nov 2011, 21:23
As one who did indeed nearly render some runway lights inoperable on 26/08 earlier this year..and still got mentioned in Station execs the next Monday morning.... I totally agree!!

I think, even as a student, I would land anywhere thats possible...then explain it to the Stn Cdr!

A and C
1st Dec 2011, 07:16
Pboyall has just about covered this, there was a statement in GASIL to the effect that the CAA would not take action if PFL's were being conducted is a sensble way.

The reason for this was that a court case that took action aganst a flying instructor failed in some style and in the view of most people should not have been taken in the first place.

In this case the instructor was teaching EFATO when a person (who was known for complaning to the airfield) got together two witnesses, the CAA took the action on the basis of these people's evidence.

When the case came to court the main complaners wife failed to turn up (calling in sick) his evidence was sutch that you would have the wheels of the aircraft just a few feet above the house and the third witness (remember the aircraft was just above the house by only feet) could not tell the court if the aircraft was a high or low wing type!
It became clear that from evidence of other complants made by the main witness that there was an agenda that had nothing to do with low flying.

Quite frankly after sitting through two days of this case it was clear to all that the CAA's leagal team had built a very poor case and had to pay the defendants costs after the verdict had been reached.

The GASIL statment was writen aganst this background so I take from this that your most likely way to get into trouble with PFL or EFATO work is to repetedly use the same location for the practice as it is unlikely that a bystander will get your registration or take action on the first pass.
I go around above 500ft if I spot livestock or people in the area or if the student has picked a field near buildings.

If the above conditions have been made and a safe landing could be made in the event of the engine not responding I am quite happy to let the student go down to 20-30ft before going around.

It instructors should keep in mind that they have a responsability to provide realistic training so that in the event of the student having an engine failure they are fully equiped to carry out a forced landing, this is a duty of care that instructors have not only to the student pilot but also to the PUBLIC ON THE GROUND who might be unfortunate to be in the location of an aircraft that has suffered an engine failure.

BackPacker
1st Dec 2011, 07:32
Seriously, if it is an emergency - which a jammed throttle arguably would be - you will have called Mayday and the Tower should render all possible assistance

That assistance can (and should, in case of a low-hours pilot) also include phoning your operating base, getting your instructor (or for that matter, any instructor) on the frequency, to calm you down, to reassure you and to give you advice such as this.

Heck, if experienced pilots are monitoring the frequency (and in case of an emergency, you can expect they will) and they figure out you're close to panicking and the tower doesn't do anything about it, they will jump in with some sensible advice. (Remember that the tower controller, although the authority on the frequency, might not be a pilot himself, and might not know tricks like the ones mentioned.)

As others said, in an emergency all rules go out the window. (I was assisting in an emergency a while ago and accidently flew too high, into class A airspace. Didn't hear any word from the tower about that, although they were radar vectoring me to the scene so they must've noticed. Only until the - fortunately undamaged - aircraft and occupants were in sight did I get the polite question whether I would be able to descend a little.)

horizon flyer
1st Dec 2011, 16:42
I think going into a field is a different mind set to landing on a set runway.

1 Landing to the right or left of the field centre line is OK if no obstructions
go corner to corner if more space needed.

2 A curved approach I believe is better, as the RAF teach, gives more options for height ajustment and error correction see 1.

3 Only apply flap and slow down when you know you can make it
or lower it when crossing the hedge, it can strech the glide that 100 feet of distance,that can make the differnce and gives a shorter slower landing run

4 Keep the speed up in the turns, don't spin or stall it in on approach.

5 Remember 180 turns burns 500 feet.

6 Learn how to sideslip even if its the only time you need it.

7 try to pick a field that is green or brown/green, watch out for the old medieval wavey topped field systems.

8 If you miss seeing any cables till to late, then plan to go under them, don't stall it in going over, just remember the tail sticks up.

I have force landed from 750 ft took 60 seconds and 1.5 miles, had to pull a 100 degree left turn, hopped it over the far hedge from the chosen field, rolled 165 yard but walked away.

A late friend had an engine failure on climb out at 300 feet tried a 180 and stalled it in from 50 feet, at the end of the turn. See 5.

Hope the all ideas have helped