London Olympics

[Canary Boy]

From the Torygraph this morning:

'Missiles could be fired in London to protect the Olympic Games from terrorist attack, Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, announced yesterday.'

'He (Dr Fox) asked Mr Hammond to confirm that “there will be a full level of multi-layered defence and deterrence for the London Games, including ground-to-air based missiles in London”.

The Defence Secretary replied: “All necessary measures to ensure the security and safety of the London Olympic Games will be taken, including, if the advice of the military is that it is required, appropriate ground-to-air defences.”

Surely this is mis-interpreted? A defensive ring of SAM around London? :ugh:

[Clearedtoroll]

SAMs are useful for point defence against air threats - I would be surprised if they weren't considered.

[BEagle]

Since when did the UK have any substantial GBAD? And as for multi-layered...

Last I recall after Bloodhound went out of service and the USAF Rapier squadrons disappeared was that all the UK has is Javelin and whatever pusser has on his little grey boats....and a small number of pongo Rapiers?
"A full level of multi-layered defence and deterrence for the London Games, including ground-to-air based missiles in London"What planet are these people from?

Remind me again how much this fortnight orgy of a few sweaty jockstrappers running, jumping, splashing about and throwing things is costing the nation?

[Canary Boy]

Perhaps a screen provided by pusser's Grey Funnel Lines, strategically located around our shores may work. The falling debris is less likely to upset Joe Public. Now then, where did we put all those ships? Or maybe we could put Rapier on some inflatables. Words fail me.

[cazatou]

BEagle



ZARG?

[Mach Two]

No, no, Beagle. We can find some rockets to use, I don't think that's the problem. You can't put a SAM ring around London because all the traffic would have to enter it to get to Heathrow.

But it's OK, what we do is this. Let all the aircraft enter London's airspace because they're behaving normally and heading for LHR. Then, when they suddenly deviate from their approach and head towards the Olympic arena we engage them with Rapier so that they lose control and the burning wreckage lands in middle of the City. So we save the stadium at the expense of three crowded blocks nearer the centre of London.

I guess the choice is the athletes or the bankers. Hmm. Maybe I won't go there!!

[HTB]

When did we replace SAMs with GAMs?:confused:

Mister B

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Does the RN have enough ships with SAM (GAM?) left to put a defensive ring around anything?

Duncs:ok:

[Load Toad]

Can't we get some Barrage Balloons n stuff from Millets? Painted up in Union Jack colours n stuff obviously - sponsored by Stone Island.

And a pikey with a spud gun.

[Training Risky]

Can't say 'pikey' you know, pr00ne will be on here quicker than your average ambulance chasing lawyer to claim that you are a racist/war criminal/whatever.

[NutLoose]

Surely they could be positioned so all the misses and any wreckage could fall onto dead ground, Westminster would be an ideal area for this, just over the bridge and to the left......

[grandfer]

If we do find some rockets (Mach Two) where do we find enough milk bottles to launch them from now most of us get our milk in plastic these days .
As for the actual Limprick Games , I'll be glad when the whole thing is all over , what a total waste of money for 2 weeks of sports !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[cazatou]

TR

The top scoring Belgian Fighter Pilot serving in the RAF during WW2 had the nickname of "Pyker".

[500N]

"As for the actual Limprick Games , I'll be glad when the whole thing is all over , what a total waste of money for 2 weeks of sports !!!!!!!!!!!!!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif"

Don't worry, you then have to contend with the Post Olympic slump
as Sydney, NSW found out.

All the pollies and big wigs with the money put it all into planning and staging the Olympics and not a minute past when the accolades are handed out or decided, then they all p off and leave the mess to someone else to clean up.

Then someone decides that we had better start chasing some more activities / competitions / tournaments so that the venues are used but of course that takes time - normally years, by then a change of Government has occurred so they can blame the previous one.
.

[Ballast]

Sounds to me like the new Defence Secretary is being set-up for a fall by the ex-Defence Secretary?

Why ask a question like that only a few weeks out of the job, unless you already know the real, underlying answer and you are preparing a trap?

[cazatou]

Do the guns on HMS Belfast still work?

[Pontius Navigator]

Caz, according to the latest Olympics publicity picture HMS Belfast is no longer on her mooring. She may have been moved to a secret location for her pompoms and HA AA to be renovated and moored further down river.

[ninja-lewis]

BEagle:
Last I recall after Bloodhound went out of service and the USAF Rapier squadrons disappeared was that all the UK has is Javelin and whatever pusser has on his little grey boats....and a small number of pongo Rapiers?

How very fitting!

http://www.lboro.ac.uk/sport/hall-of-fame/images/photos/steve-backley.jpg

Ballast:
Why ask a question like that only a few weeks out of the job, unless you already know the real, underlying answer and you are preparing a trap?

Sir Humphrey: Bernard, what is the purpose of our defence policy?
Bernard: To defend Britain.
Sir Humphrey: No, Bernard. It is to make people believe Britain is defended.
Bernard: The Russians?
Sir Humphrey: Not the Russians, the British! The Russians know it's not.

[Grimweasel]

I visited the Type 45 when parked up in the Docklands for the recent Defence Show (DSEI). Very impressed. The radar and range are impressive indeed. All the civilians who also visited will no doubt have been impressed with the 'war room' too. I think there may have been some PR involved hoping that the story of its reach would get out and thus deter any lunatic with questionable intentions during the 'limpics!

No point deploying the Rapier now the Army are in charge of GBAD (go figure?!) - they would be shooting down the Typhoons mistaking them for SU-27s!! :{

[Roadster280]

Last I recall after Bloodhound went out of service and the USAF Rapier squadrons disappeared was that all the UK has is Javelin and whatever pusser has on his little grey boats....and a small number of pongo Rapiers?

USAF Rapiers? Really? Or RAF Regt Rapiers deployed to protect USAF airfields? Either way, the RAF Regt jacked Rapier.

It does however continue with the Royal Artillery who have 57 of them in two regiments. Somewhat more than the the "small number" of 24 fielded by the RAF Regt. Six per squadron, 4 squadrons.

Not that I'm suggesting Rapier alone is adequate. Combine Rapier and T45 and you start to have a layered system, no?

[Pontius Navigator]

We know how Pprune is advert friendly and offers adverts associated with the thread.

Well I noted at the bottom of this thread:

Doctor Fox online pharmacy and then it went on to cover sexually transmitted diseases. How very appropriate given the no doubt potential for STD next summer. What Defence would the former Sec Def suggest for that?

[Wrathmonk]

Come on, 20 posts in and the real answer to the problem has not been posted.

Dust off the SHAR, either base it at City Airport (land based .... never, not on WEBFs watch;)) or on board whichever 'carrier' we have left and you have 24/7 all weather long/medium/short range AD for the whole country. You would only need a slack handful of RN pilots (6 at most) because they don't have any crew duty / crew rest regulations to worry about.:E

And what's more I'm sure that nice man Lord Coe would pay for it all.:D

Now where's my medication ......

PS - if the sales speak is to be believed then surely 1 x T45 would do the job. Or you could always remove their weapon and radar systems and land base them. The RAF have plenty of FCs hidden away in bunkers various ....;)

[Wensleydale]

We place the Royal Family onto the flying program and orbit them in continuous CAP over London. Once we declare "Purple Airspace" then no-one can penetrate to the Olympic Stadium. QED.

[Willard Whyte]

At least the E3 would be re-carpeted.

[Tourist]

"This country (UK) has absolutely no Surface to Air missile defences since Bloodhound was decommissioned in 1991"


Except for all the RN ones and the Army ones, of course.


How "outdated" do you think rapier is?

[ricardian]

How about a few pikeys with lasers?

[Torque Tonight]

Can we expect a 2012 campaign medal?

[racedo]

Had a few days break in Athens in 2004 when Olympics on and took the Bus one evening to Basketball Arena. Ittrundled past a military base when lo and behold there was a AAM battery set up with quite a few people around it and lots of armed security.

Very visible, very obvious.

Course it was exactly 1 year and 1 day after the opening of the 2004 Olympic games that Helios Airways Flight 522 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522) crashed.

Given the circumstances of the incident I wondered what would have happened had the incident occured during the Olympics.

[Roadster280]

Given the circumstances of the incident I wondered what would have happened had the incident occured during the Olympics.

Outcome likely not much different.

[cazatou]

SAMXXV

How is life on Zog?

I assume that you are from the Planet Zog as none of your Post's appear to be related to the Planet Earth.

I note, however, that we are in agreement in respect of your intelligence!!!

[Bunker Mentality]

Racedo

Everyone on board would still have died. I doubt that you could blame prolonged loss of cabin air pressure resulting in annoxia on SAM/GAM however cynical you are.

[Pontius Navigator]

The problem with GBAD, gravity wins everytime.

[racedo]

Outcome likely not much different. For Pax and aircraft agree but would it have been brought down rather than crashing ?
or
Would there have been widespread panic on 1st full day of games about an incident such as this, bearing in mind 9/11 was only 2 and a bit years previous.

[500N]

"Furthermore, why should a pathetic few public schoolboys decide that the British public wish to spend several BILLION pounds to build ridiculous structures (like the dome) for one month of idiots running, jumping & generally taking the p**s as they can't hold down normal jobs......"

SAMXXV
Sounds like you have a serious chip on your shoulder. Did you mean "a pathetic few public schoolboys" or were you so intent on denigrating people that your brain and hands were not coordinated and you actually meant to say "a few pathetic public schoolboys".


"Where the UK Government would "obtain" any SAM capability, other than numerous shoulder launched line of sight missiles is beyond my limited intelligence."

The last 3 words of that sentence just about sums up all your posts on here.

[British Grenadier]

Can't we get some Barrage Balloons n stuff from Millets? Painted up in Union Jack colours n stuff obviously - sponsored by Stone Island.

And a pikey with a spud gun.


Olympics :mad::mad::mad: don't get me started , i've been paying an extra £25 per month on my :mad: poll tax for the last 4 years , and will be paying for it for a furthe god knows how many more , ...... and i didn't get any sodding tickets either ......:ugh:

[ex-fast-jets]

You wrote:

or was you so intent on denigrating people

The grammar police are after you!!

[Willard Whyte]

Except for all the RN ones and the Army ones, of course.

How "outdated" do you think rapier is?

I'd rather have a few batteries of PAC-3s pointing skywards.

[M609]

Buy a couple of NASAMS II systems.....it has allegedly protected the US president...and not just during the Nobel ceremony in Oslo ;)

[Willard Whyte]

I prefer SLAMRAAM.

[racedo]

Racedo

Everyone on board would still have died. I doubt that you could blame prolonged loss of cabin air pressure resulting in annoxia on SAM/GAM however cynical you are.

Not doubting that, questioning what action Greeks would have taken and potential impact on Olympics.

[jamesdevice]

"and potential impact on Olympics."
Unfortunate choice of words there methinks

[NutLoose]

Perhaps we could enter a British Army team in the Javelin, they might pick up a medal and can always double up against a ground attack.. :)

[Roadster280]

The judges would need a hell of a long tape measure!

[500N]

" The judges would need a hell of a long tape measure!"

It would be called a foul throw as the Javelin didn't return to earth and make a mark :O

.

[NutLoose]

Well we would beat the bod on the end, that hasn't quite figured it out yet...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJmq67Flj4k&sns=em

[500N]

That's a novel way to handle a live grenade.

.

[MAINJAFAD]

I'd rather have a few batteries of PAC-3s pointing skywards.

I would concur with that statement, as at least it has been proven to be able to shoot down an aircraft (Comments about Patriot's performance in GW1 are irrelevant, as a modified Scud coming in at IRBM speed is a very unlikely threat in this case). Do we need to rent some off the Spams, hell no, just offer the Dutch some tickets as long as they bring some of their PAC-2 batteries with them, failing that we do have an agreement with the French, and they did bring along an IHAWK battery last time I was involved in an exercise in the UK that included MSAM in the mix.

SAMXXV
How is life on Zog?
I assume that you are from the Planet Zog as none of your Post's appear to be related to the Planet Earth.
I note, however, that we are in agreement in respect of your intelligence!!! .

"This country (UK) has absolutely no Surface to Air missile defences since Bloodhound was decommissioned in 1991"
Except for all the RN ones and the Army ones, of course.
How "outdated" do you think rapier is?

Since when did the UK have any substantial GBAD? And as for multi-layered...
Last I recall after Bloodhound went out of service and the USAF Rapier squadrons disappeared was that all the UK has is Javelin and whatever pusser has on his little grey boats....and a small number of pongo Rapiers?

SAMXXV has a point, with the exception of Sea Dart, and what's being fitted to the T45's, everything else in British service is a short range firework compared with Bloodhound 2 type MSAM. As for Javelin, sorry Beagle, to the army, that is now a US built anti tank missile (or anti motorbike in at least one case in Afg). Try Starstreak (or HVM).

Tourist, Rapier FSC is indeed streets ahead of what went down south in 1982, and even has the option of a proximity fuzed warhead , though in both cases the small warhead's of Rapier and HVM may not do enough damage to an airliner doing a suicide attack to stop it from hitting its intended target (last Airliner to be hit by a MANPADS that I know of was that DHL Freighter at Baghdad and the pilots managed to walk away from the landing).

The effect of a big SAM like Bloodhound on an airliner on the other hand would look something like this.

http://www.brasscheck.com/OKBOMB/controd2.jpg

Photo is from a web site by some nut who thinks TWA800 was brought down by a large SAM. Don't subscribe to that myself, but the model he built does demonstrate what a large Con-Rod warhead as fitted on Bloodhound 2 would do to a 747 type target. Needless to say, I don't think an airliner being flown by a suicidal pilot would make it to the target if hit by a large MSAM.

However, at the end of the day, the whole purpose of the active air defence is as a backstop to the front line of the defence which is the intelligence efforts in stopping the terrorists while they are still planning such an attack, plus sending a message that such an attack will not be successful. So could the British currently defend a five mile by five mile area near to a very large river from very limited air attack????

Humm let me think about that???

Radar Cover. Take your pick, good ATC area cover, Naval radar cover if AAW asset deployed, AEW asset if you so wish, Deployable AD Radar cover if you so wish. Deployable TACC and data links available if you really want to co-ordinate your air and Land based GBAD asserts with direct face to face contact. In fact there are a whole host of AD and Naval radars parked on a hill within 30 miles of the place (if you know southern Essex).

Air Asserts. AD Aircraft forward based and on CAP (a perfectly good RAF airfield within 5 minutes flying time of the place, no requirement for the non existant leaping heaps).

GBAD. Area Defence - No need for anything not currently operational on one of HM's destroyers parked in aforementioned river. SHORAD - No need for anything not operated by the cloud punchers.

[Bunker Mentality]

Racedo

The Greeks already had F16s alongside the doomed airliner so I imagine they would have been the first choice of weapon if the aircraft was judged to pose a threat - whether to the Olympic Games or anything else.

[ShyTorque]

Many years ago our squadron took part in a long term trial (a month, might even have been three months, it was nearly thirty years ago). G/A missiles were deployed along a belt of land (quite a long one). We were given IFF codes to squawk and were not told where the G/A missiles were.

If transitting the belt, i.e. en route to our daily tasking, we were briefed to depart through the belt at a non-tactical altitude and switch on the correct code for the time of day (friendly mode). On the way back in were to fly tactically, as if in enemy mode (i.e low level, IFF off).

The results? Not one "kill" claimed on the way in (enemy mode). However, many "kills" were claimed on the way out, in friendly mode.

I hope things have improved...... :suspect:

[Willard Whyte]

I don't suppose we had a Miss Bloodhound back in the day? Or was she a bit of a dog?

http://www.radomes.org/museum/MissBOMARC.jpg

[Halton Brat]

Q: What do Linford Christie & the first transatlantic aviators have in common?

A: They were both Alcock & Brown.

(Please excuse tenuous link to affairs Olympic.)

Hat/Coat etc.

HB

[racedo]

The judges would need a hell of a long tape measure!"

It would be called a foul throw as the Javelin didn't return to earth and make a mark http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Reckon a reappraisal of Newton's Law of Gravity may be required on that basis :p

[MATELO]

I feel a solution is near..........

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIiRR4Q4izVyRdrawKdAuQspjlpLpCT-SxcF9pS6-Jszxoi70EEg

[jamesdevice]

more credible risk than a rogue airliner is a mini submarine (of the type used by Columbian druggies) passing the Thames barrier with who-knows-what on board.
I take it the Thames doesn't have a SOSUS array, and with no Nimrods and dwindling Sea Kings theres not a lot to police the estuary or its approaches
Maybe they'll shut the barrier for the whole of the Olympics and turn the Thames into a lagoon??

[MAINJAFAD]

Humm, there is no need for SOSUS or Sea kings as there's a destroyer parked the river to give your MSAM cover. Quick blast of active sonar on a regular basis, along with a passive listening, see anything that's a threat, send out some Bootnecks with hand grenades in RIBs from said warship to provide the active defence (we are not trying to to sink a double hulled Soviet nuclear submarine in the mid Atlantic here). 10/10 for outside the box thinking on the threat analysis though. :ok:

[jamesdevice]

have we a spare destroyer to park there? I thought the plan nwas for a type 45... which is an anti-aircraft destroyer........does its sonar even have that capability?
And how well would it detect a plastic hulled battery powered mini-sub? Especially one running upstream behind a commercial vessel?

[diginagain]

......have we a spare destroyer to park there?
No, but Babcocks have had a work-party on Belfast for the last couple of weeks.

[500N]

Jamesdevice has been watching that spook series on TV which had that exact scenario.

[Willard Whyte]

No, but Babcocks have had a work-party on Belfast for the last couple of weeks.

Maybe the toilets were blocked.

[A and C]

OK who wants to be the one to write the RoE for launching a SAM into the London TMA ?

[Evanelpus]

I wouldn't want to be the one that gave the order to fire a missile!

The other week I was walking through Trafalgar Square and noticed the Olympic countdown clock. Nice touch for visitors I thought until I looked more closely and realised that the amount of days to the Olympics differed, depending on which side of the clock you stood.

Reading this thread makes me worry that if we can't get a poxy clock right, how are we going to manage to make a call about firing a missile?

I'll be glad when the Olympics are over.:ugh:

[APG63]

I wouldn't either, but we really don't need to worry. It's never going to happen. The whloe thing is just too complicated and the chance of targeting the wrong aircraft or no aircraft or causing huge collateral damage is to massive to consider. Chances are that if anything were to happen, it would be all over before we could react to it anyway.

Still, a target-rich environment for Typhoon QRA.

I'm off to the beach.

[Evanelpus]

I'm off to the beach.

I'll see you at the bar then!

[APG63]

Best plan I've heard all thread!

[Evanelpus]

I'll be the one in a tin hat.:ok:

[tonker]

The current armament of the Type 45 destroyer is a Vickers 4.5 inch gun, and some light cannon. The Aster 15-30 are still not ready or have yet to be deployed i believe, so apart from it's radar...........

[jb5000]

The other week I was walking through Trafalgar Square and noticed the Olympic countdown clock. Nice touch for visitors I thought until I looked more closely and realised that the amount of days to the Olympics differed, depending on which side of the clock you stood.

Agree with the sentiment, but in fairness I think one side is for the Olympics and the other for the Paralympics..

[Evanelpus]

jb, thanks for that. D'ya know, I never realised that could be the reason. It's amazing what the good posters of PPRuNe know!

[NutLoose]

Would appear the outer London defence ring is in hand..... allowing for the UK budget etc... :E

Guns Of World War Two Destroyer HMS Cavalier to fire once again | Culture24 (http://www.culture24.org.uk/history+%26+heritage/war+%26+conflict/world+war+two/art362716)

[NutLoose]

wigans sights - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=wigans%20sights)


:E

[Green Flash]

Any suggestions for an interesting weekend in Wigan instead?

Just sit back and be glad you're not in London? ;)

[Krystal n chips]

Here you go TTN.....;)

Wigan Things To Do - Attractions & Must See - VirtualTourist (http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Europe/United_Kingdom/England/Greater_Manchester/Wigan-302921/Things_To_Do-Wigan-TG-C-1.html)

And if the above fails to impress, if you are a student of anthropology, you can write a thesis.... after you've met the locals....

A nice summation there P P...:ok:

[NutLoose]

What next the Wigan Olympics?
whippet racing, 100 yards black pudding hurling, the ecky thump heavyweight championship and the mushy pea 100 yards freestyle?.

[Self Loading Freight]

As a Londoner, I intend to spend the Olympic fortnight up Saxa Vord - purely because ye canna get no further away...

[MAINJAFAD]

No point going all the way to Saxa, its shut!!!!

[Willard Whyte]

T'was ever thus.

[TEEEJ]

Rapier battery noted at Biggin Hill.

View topic - Rapier battery at Biggin (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38962)

[Willard Whyte]

Does Bernie know?