RAF Weston on the Green

[zetec2]

RAF still operating (C130 dropping this morning) but RAF/MOD not renewed the lease on the civvy para club, with all the local talk & publicity about a new ECO town complex South of the M40 does this mean the end is in sight for WOTG ?? any info anyone ?. Regards, Paul H, Bicester.

[gijoe]

'Tis a long story.

Mil training in the Danger Area will continue as that is what it is for.

Adventure Training courses (i.e. sport parachuting for the military) has gone to other places.

Fun parachuting no longer available as the owners/operators couldn't wait any longer for the paperwork shufflers at Air to make a decision.

...All very puzzling...

G:ok:

[Top Bunk Tester]

Actually down to one arrogant, self important, selfish and blatantly incompetent Wg Cdr is the reason that there is no longer any sport para happening at weekends.

He is proof that the latest redundancies have been targeted at the wrong people :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[spectre150]

A real shame that a successful and popular club (and business) could not continue at Weston. Having done a static line course there in 1996, and then jumped there most weekends ever since it is frustrating to say the least that Skydive Weston had to fold. A previous poster has expressed a very direct view on one particular individual in the chain who many people hold directly responsible for this debacle and I know that that view is shared by others. Another previous poster commented that AT sports parachuting had been moved elsewhere (presumably Netheravon?). Is this true - I thought the ATF static line courses were still running.

[Exascot]

I am really sorry to hear this news. I spent many weekends down there para dropping. Great bunch of hooligans :ooh:

A statement:

Skydive Weston Closed until further notice | admin (http://www.rafspa.com/)

[Top Bunk Tester]

As far as I am aware JSAT(W) is still conducting AT Sport Para courses. They are also still dropping mil para at WOTG. The only change is that the w/e sport para operation has been kicked into touch by said ahole Wg Cdr, who it has to be said hasn't changed since he was a Flt Lt OC ATF at WOTG and this is a general opinion not just my own. I await my ban for exercising my freedom of speech with baited breath :oh: In the years that I've used PPrune nothing has really got my back up more than this.

[zetec2]

Believe Skydive are operating from Hinton in the Hedges near Brackley, still no news re Oxford Gliding Club , Hercs still dropping late yesterday, Paul H.

[Top Bunk Tester]

You believe wrongly, Skydive Hinton has no connection to Skydive Weston in any commercial sense. OGC have just had their lease at WOTG renewed and are continuing to operate.

[Exascot]

OGC have just had their lease at WOTG renewed

I am sorry, I do not understand this. Why not Skydive Weston then who have many military members and instructors. Please someone PM me with the name of the Wg Cdr Plonker I must have known him.

[likestofly]

Quite simply because of incompetence by some RAF Officers. They couldnt get their act together and actually save the MOD and most importantly RAF Weston on the Green / JSAT money. Skydive Weston offered up to £500,000 of income over the next 5 years but they said no.
They blindly gave the gliders a new 10 year lease, who dont contribute anything to JSAT or have offered any kind of income Thats no fault of the gliders who are a great bunch.
An obvious reason why the Defence Budget is in the state it is when you have incompetent Officers pretending they know how to control budgets!
As the RAF are the teachers of military parachuting, its quite bizarre they have no facility for their guys to do sport parachuting at weekends now, when the Army have 4.
Even the RAF Falcons had to go to a civilian centre to jump their own Charity tandems for the Parachute Jumping Instructors Benevolent Fund, as they were not permitted to do them at RAF Weston on the Green, No1 PTS own training drop zone!
As an RAF Officer said the other day "The RAF is coming to the end of its hundred year experiment"

[LFFC]

likestofly

As the RAF are the teachers of military parachuting, its quite bizarre they have no facility for their guys to do sport parachuting at weekends now, when the Army have 4.

Now that you've publicised it, I'm sure that the MOD financiers will start charging the Army for the privilage of using those 4 casual facilities - or even make some savings by disposing of them! Well done!

[Lima Juliet]

Likestofly

I think you have answered the question in your post. As the RAF Sports Parachuting Club it cannot make money - just like a Mess bar it has to be not for profit. It also has to run under a GAI with a Gp Capt or above as the Chairman. So if it was set up as a going concern, making £500k of profit over 5 years without investing that profit back into RAF Sports Parachuting for the Serviceman then it would be in breach of the arrangement for an encroachment on Crown Property.

However, it could pay the 'going rate' with MOD Wider Markets and make all the profit it liked. But that is not in the spirit of how Service Sports Associations are run and how best value is offered to Servicemen of any rank.

Finally, you mention JSAT. If there was any mixing of Public and Non-Public monies (not that I know that there was or was not) then that is an easy way to be "expelled" from any agreement to use Crown Property. A lot of the JSAT organisations have to be exceptionally careful of this.

Maybe the Army have been a bit more cognisant of these things?

LJ

[Top Bunk Tester]

Leon
I'm sorry but if you knew the setup at RAF WOTG and the relationship between JSAT(W), RAFSPA & Skydive Weston then you wouldn't have posted the above. It has always been complex and having been involved for almost 30 years I know of what I speak. This debacle is down to one corrupt serving person and he deserves to be hung out to dry because of it. If you need to know or are closely involved then you would know the name. Whilst you are quoting chapter and verse, the RAF has lost it's way as being the premier sports para drop zone for the benefit of ALL servicemen in the UK. This is not about profit, but ploughing money back into the equipment needed provide servicemen with a unique adventurous training opportunity. Now this money will have to found from the public purse and I think we all know where this will lead in the current climate. I wonder if you have any conception of the costs involved to provide sports para as adventure training, I would hazard it tops the scale on a cost per participant basis of any other JSAT activity. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Lima Juliet]

TBT

You are right, I know not and I care not about the finer detail. I have no connection to WOTG. However, I do know that there are plenty of JSAT organisations that have similar large-scale budgets and manage to not mix public with non-public and keep it all above board; Hang-gliding at Crickhowell, Gliding at Halton and the Yacht Sailing mob.

From what you infer in your post surely someone cannot be completely culpable and the chairmen of the 3 organisations cannot have been completely blind to one individual, can they?

Anyway, it all sounds like a "done deal" now and so I guess we'll have to use Army facilities now if we want to jump out of serviceable aircraft as a hobby(why would you want to do that? I have no idea!). :E

LJ

[spectre150]

The RAF Sports Parachute Association has been in existence for many years but fundamentally changed in concept about 5/6 years ago. It is now like any other RAF sport association - funded by the RAF Sports Board focussing on development and in particular competing at the Inter Service Level. The Chairman is a wg cdr and the 'gp capt or higher' oversight is provided by a President. RAFSPA in its modern guise can seek (and is encouraged to do so by the Sports Board) sponsorship on top of its operating costs and equipment budget from Sports Board/Sports Lottery funding.

Under the 'old' system, public and non-public funded equiment were not properly seperated and it became very clear that this was unsustainable and would not stand scrutiny. Hence to the change.

Skydive Weston, a business and commercial entity, and the 'new' RAFSPA (operated by the RAF SPorts Board) were born out of the debacle that was weekend sports parachuting at Weston up until around 2006. That it has come to the present impasse is disgraceful and I agree totally with TTB's sentiments. Some Weston club jumpers do indeed continue to jump at Hinton (presumably because it is geographically convenient for them), but many others jump at other dropzones both in the UK and abroad.

I hope this sheds some light from the perspective of a recent ex-RAFSPA Chairman :)

[gijoe]

Were there any outstanding bills to be paid by Skydive Weston?

Rent, fuel...

...only asking! :ok:

[Top Bunk Tester]

IF there were then they could easily have been paid had not the afore mentioned corrupt Wg Cdr pulled the rug from under them :mad:

[likestofly]

TFFC, thankfully the Army have full support of their superiors and Defence Lands or DIO!and i know for sure that 2 of these centres put money back into the pot to support their own regiments involvement and promote the sport to service personnel. One has no JSAT money to fall back on but has a good business plan to operate a great centre without putting pressure on the already bursting defence budget.

Leon, all of Skydive Westons activities were under contract or lease that they had to bid for. The offer to support JSAT for 500k was to help the pot ( as such ) so public money didnt have to be used as Top Bunk Tester states. It would have been very simple to continue the centre as it was, whilst benefiting them at the same time without dipping further in the 'pot' and continuing supporting service personnel at weekends and during the week.
As Spectre 150 states,' its disgraceful' what has happened to RAF Weston on the Green and its once thriving community.

[LFFC]

So maybe there is more to this than meets the eye!

Although the proposed eco-town at Weston Otmoor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_Otmoor#External_links)was de-selected a couple of years ago, the plans seem to indicate that it would have had a big impact on Weston-on-the-Green. Maybe the plan was just parked, and if planning regulations get changed...........

Budget 2011: new planning rules ease path for developers (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/23/budget-2011-planning-regulations-eased-local-communities)

[Top Bunk Tester]

So maybe there is more to this than meets the eye!

More than you'll ever know, especially if a certain person is allowed to get away with his nefarious plan!

Although the proposed eco-town at Weston Otmoor was de-selected a couple of years ago, the plans seem to indicate that it would have had a big impact on Weston-on-the-Green. Maybe the plan was just parked, and if planning regulations get changed...........

Doesn't even figure in this plot, the eco village has been put to bed. Total red herring. Proof of which is that OGC have had their 10 yr lease renewed.

[LFFC]

I wonder what the future holds for Weston on the Green now?

Army chiefs' fury as Paras lose their parachutes: New cutbacks mean recruits will no longer be trained to jump (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290896/Army-chiefs-fury-Paras-lose-parachutes-New-cutbacks-mean-recruits-longer-trained-jump.html)


Parachute Regiment recruits will not undergo intensive training
Experienced soldiers will not do annual jumps to stay battle ready
Former officer and MP Dan Jarvis reveals plans to phase out parachuting
Army reduces size of parachute force on short notice to 80 men

[Flying_Anorak]

Weston is still very busy with what used to be the JSAT courses midweek - it's now the Forces Development Training Centre with new signage and stuff planned!

[oldmansquipper]

Bound to close then...New Signs etc? Nailed on certainty. I can see the "brown envelopes" being stuffed already...;)

[spectre150]

Should never have put Skydive Weston out of business :mad:

[Top Bunk Tester]

Spectre150

And we all know who was responsible for that :ugh:

[dragartist]

this tyre valve about the non para para reg comes round every year. Time the wheel fell off.

Not wishing to take anything away from these quys but would they ever go to war on a LLP? Overhead assault strung out over long DZs

Attended some very interesting meetings in main building on the topic over the years heard many arguments from various Colonels and Brigadiers about not being able to recruit soldires to the reg or not being able to feed pfp or SF. Sat on a number of MJPs where not one SAG scenario would be satisfied by para using LLP.

Go streight to AFF somewhere warm (San Diego probably).

For the uninitiated there really is a big difference between military and civie jumping.

Great savings to be had if the Military Task was restricted to fewer numbers. we would not need 3 PJIs for every trooper. or better still give the PJIs a gun. (probably not a good idea as Top bunk tester may shoot the wg cdr)

[Top Bunk Tester]

Dragartist

I am deeply offended that you appear to think that I am one of those unwashed aircrew impersonators that got handed their brevet from the bottom of a cornflake packet and didn't earn it like the rest of us :=

But yes if I had a gun then .......

[Trim Stab]

As Dragartist writes, it is nigh on impossible to come up with any credible scenario to maintain extensive static line capability. It is as outdated as going into battle on horses. Helicopters are much better - you get a two way ticket too..

Probably sensible to maintain a minimal core capabilty with a Herc full just in case.

[dragartist]

Yes I agree TS we need to maintain some form of FW capability. RW not that good for LRDI. but nor is a 130 (K?) when they were talking about real high stuff with enough fuel to return home whilst preserving adequate stall margins at low enough despatch speeds. A400M will be far better (the sales man told me and we all belived him).

What I think we still need is a couple of handfuls of airborne troops that can use squares both stand off an FF using o2. I don't think we need a tail 800+ long with all the "clingons" as my ex Gp Capt (who became the head of the sports board) used to call them, to support that capability.

LLP was optimised for under the radar cold war scenarios but now it is the other extream (high - above MEZ) the commanders who beat the para reg drum may be out of step but I would love to understand their costed business case / argument.

My argument may be defeated as the French did use Static Line round (Looked like T10s) to good effect in Mali to sweep up fleeing insurgents. but not in huge numbers. Like us they could not generate the Tac AT.

TBT, I was a bit worried but I did not have you down as a swimming pool attendant. Do I expect some fall out from Spectre 150? If I recall Spectre was the high teck string we used instead of dacron on some chutes. It was a bit hard on the rag packers fingers and very kinky!

[Lima Juliet]

Seen some highly effective PAFs with 30-40 odd blokes in Afg - couldn't have done it with choppers as the targets would have burned through noise. Sadly these PAFs do not make the news unless you read Wikileaks! :eek:

The exfil was done my helos.

LJ :cool:

[spectre150]

Do I expect some fall out from Spectre 150?

Drag - it is still a bit early for me so I am slow off the mark in responding to your banter. Truth is I cant work out what fall out you are expecting from me :)

[dragartist]

Exactly the type of thing I was on about Leon. You don't need the large force some are advocating to persecute that type of action.

I think the buzz word may be coherance. someone at the top makes the big handfull decisions and that needs to be affordable.

but what I saw happening in my last 14 years in that sphere was a lack of ballance where we had aspirations for a large para reg without the airlift. Honestly it will be no different when A400 comes on line. I recall exactly what the para Colonel in town said when C17 arrived. Some wanted to exploit it tactically as the US do without any appreciation of the cost

Need to preserve what is important. but what is important to one branch is not to another. hence the willy waving that is going on.

Time for another beer I am beginging to sound incoherent!

[swingy1]

Well they've just signed a new contract for the Skyvan to use 470hrs this financial year, worth around £1 million pounds. So i cant see it slowing down just yet as thats a lot of parachuting! Cant imagine SF using it all so they'll be plenty for paras to use also?

Its also been doing a lot of trials work at Marham and Leeming and theres talk of it being used for Oxygen jumps!

[swingy1]

Ive heard the same guy, that got Weston closed, is now being pursued legally by the Army Parachute Association for the JSAT contract there.

The Air Force must be so proud of him!!? :D

[spectre150]

Swingy - who is 'they'? The MoD or somebody at a lower level? Not having a pop at you, genuinely interested.

[millerscourt]

Are they still Gliding from there? Went solo in a T21 around 1961 and got my Silver C Ht in an Olympia 2b from there. Happy days.

[Lima Juliet]

Oxford Gliding Club is based there. No RAF or Service Club, though...

Oxford Gliding Club Home (http://www.oxford-gliding-club.co.uk/)

[dragartist]

Swingy, Welcome to Prunne. We had Interim o2 on the Skyvan quite a while back used with the HL versons of GQ360. I had a devils own job with the MAR for Skyvan para when we moved responsibility from DPA into SMG/DLO/DE&S. would have been far easier had we adopted CAP660 for certification. All this was pre the MAA. I have been away from it all now for a few years. I hope it all works out for you. Limit exposure to risk by only subjecting those who have a real war role to jump.

[floppyjock]

Why would the APA pursue anyone over the JSAT contract. RAFSPA run Weston not the APA.

[spectre150]

RAFSPA run Weston not the APA.

The RAF Sport Parachute Association does not run Weston. RAFSPA is funded and administered by the RAF Sports Board like just about any other sports association (lower case initials) in the RAF. It has no authority and no assets. This was not the case until 2006 (ish) when RAFSPA in its old guise 'ran' the drop zone, but things have moved on a long way since then.

[floppyjock]

Still don't see the connection with the APA

[swingy1]

JSAT is run by 22GP RAF and there are centres at Weston, Netheravon and Cyprus. There used to be one in Germany but that has recently been closed.

When the new JSAT contract came up for renewal at the Netheravon centre, there were a few applications to supply an aircraft, pilot etc etc.
The APA have been supplying this for many years but this year it was awarded to someone else.
The APA are contesting the award to the same company that supply an aircraft to Weston. According to reports the APA is pursuing the RAF Officer in charge of JSAT at 22GP. This is the same Officer that was meant to start a new RAF parachute club after refusing to allow Skydive Weston to continue there but never has.

Top Bunk Tester has posted a shot of the Skyvan with a collapsed nose gear from a landing incident last Friday with PJIs on board but no one else. No one was hurt. The airframes are starting to show their age!! This is the same airframe that also had a landing incident at Weston back in 2008 when the pilot made a very hard landing and had to divert to Oxford to perform a landing without the right undercarriage!