Birth Certificates - RAF Brats born overseas

[Ogre]

Folks

Mrs Ogre is a RAF Brat, she was born in Malta when her Father was stationed over there in the 60's, to be precise she was born in the navy hospital at Luqa. She has a birth certificate which is an RAF form, gives all the details of her birth and was signed by the RAF Register officer for Malta.

Now, she currently needs to get a copy of her birth certificate, so a bit of a google search directed her to the General Register Office. As we are not in the UK, she sent off the forms and today received a reply.

Basically, the GRO can't find any record of the birth. She phoned then, and was basically told they do not hold military birth records (even though the National Archive website says they do), and was told to phone the British High Commission in Malta.

We did some further digging, tried Kentigern House, tried the RAF disclosures office at Cranwell, and no-one can tell us who holds the birth records and can provide a copy of the certificate.

So great and wise forum, has anyone out there tried a similar quest? Has anyone tried to get a copy of a birth certificate for a child born overseas to serving military personnel. If so, where die you go?

Ogre

[howiehowie93]

Mrs HH93 is also a Scaley Brat born in RNH Malta in early1960, she has a UK Birth Certificate - I've seen it. It looks exactly like mine from Leeds England vintage 1960; all hand written in Red Boxes etc.

My kids were dorn in Gib and they have two each, a Gibralter ones & the standard UK one too both types issue in Gib.

Not the help you are looking for I know but................

[Army Mover]

Same as the above, but born at a British Military Hospital in Germany, both got UK birth certificates issued at JHQ; both subsequently got their own UK passports with no problem at all.

[Shackman]

Looking at my children's Birth Certificates, they also direct you to the Registrar General of the GRO (as you have done). The only other information of note (apart from the basics) is that of the entry number in the Register of Births (also numbered) held by the appropriate Air Headquarters. As to what happens then though, I have no idea; but by the sounds of it I had better not lose them!

[teeteringhead]

Senior daughter was born in Germany,the only teeterling born outside of UK. She has a Birth Certificate issued by the British Consul General in Hanover (nearest to Rinteln) - much grander than that of her siblings - big red seal etc.

It is registered at the GRO, but the "Consulate Births" are indexed separately - she has had no probs finding it, getting copies etc. I would have thought all "furriners" would be similar? [NB - this was 1976]

[Abbey Road]

..... and was told to phone the British High Commission in Malta.I take it that you tried this? What was the answer?

[Hilife]

Have you tried the Forces Family Services at Innsworth – details below, as I believe they now look after many of the overseas registered births and may have an archive?

Good luck

Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre
Imjin Barracks
Building 182
Innsworth
Gloucester
GL3 1HW

[Q-RTF-X]

Ogre - Many years back I had to go through the process with my eldest son who was born in PMRAFH Akrotiri. There was no problem getting him a copy in the UK, though I cannot now remember the process.

More recently (say three days ago) I have been lending a hand for one of my daughters who was born a civilian in Dubai. She was first registered by the hospital and later I registered the birth with the British Consul General. We need document the birth and the process has already been started; we have yet the hear anything. What I do feel is that your case is very clearly detailed in the FAQ;s on the GRO web site.

Q1. What records are held for overseas births, marriages and deaths?

Births, marriages and deaths registered by the British Forces and the British Consul or High Commission in the country where they took place, from 1849.

Deaths that occurred in the Boer War and both World Wars.

British Army Regimental records of births, baptisms and marriages dating back to 1761.

Marine Births and Deaths, from 1837, which took place on British registered vessels.

Aircraft Births and Deaths, from 1948, which took place on British registered aircraft.

I have been away from the UK for so long I admit to being a little out of touch with the mindset of government employees, however, reading the above, my feeling is that if they have no record for your case then there is a problem on their side and it should be their responsibility to seek the information they require to make their records complete ! They have a lot more resources and clout to chase wherever they need to close any gaps.

Whatever, I wish you all the best and hope you manage to resolved the issue.

[Mmmmnice]

My daughter was also born at Rinteln while I was getting some winter sun early in 1991 - green walled room, no pool or aircon.......
She has a birth certificate issued by HQ BAOR - signed off by a Maj Frank Crabtree. Looks fairly official to me and worked fine for getting passports etc

[ShyTorque]

My daughter was also born at Rinteln while I was getting some winter sun early in 1991 - green walled room, no pool or aircon.......
She has a birth certificate issued by HQ BAOR - signed off by a Maj Frank Crabtree. Looks fairly official to me and worked fine for getting passports etc

Ditto for my son, who was also born at Rinteln, in the early 1980s. The name Major Crabtree rings a bell, too.

[dagama]

Ogre - My line of inquiry would be the British High Commission in Malta and Somerset House in London. Goggle them.

I was born in Kenya to civilian parents and have a certificate issued by the colonial administration of 'Kenya Colony'

My son was born at the RAF Wegberg while I was servivng in the then W Germany. The hospital staff very strongly advised us to get his birth registered at the British Consulate Dusseldorf before the host nation 'conferred' German nationality on him. At the time all German nationals had to do 2 years of National service. As we did not wish our son to guard some barracks in Schelswig-Holstein in the future, I scooted off to Dusseldorf and got him registered as a British national. No problems since.

[Avtur]

I was born in RNH Mtarfa, Malta GC in 1966 and have the same paperwork you describe.

Back in the 80s, I contacted Somerset Hse to ask about getting a copy as I was concerned that should the day come when I needed a copy, I would have a faff getting one: They said the British High Commission in Malta would provide it. Sadly, I never followed through with getting a copy, so would be keen to know if they do indeed provide them.

Good luck, and regards to Mrs Ogre, who may like to know the old place is still standing but in need of some TLC.

[Whenurhappy]

Our daughter was born in Naples a few years ago - so she has a US Navy Birth certificate, and Italian one (which doesn't have space to name the father, thereby avoiding embarrasment in Italy of illegitamacy) and I then started the tedious process of trying to get a UK birth certificate through BFG in Rheindahlen. Time was against us becasue of another move (and therefore needed a passport ASAP) so I simply asked the local Consular staff to register the birth. Euro 75 later, the business was done and a passport issued - all in about a week (the process takes longer now that passports are now solely produced in the UK). Months later I was still getting queries from RO2 I A M Jobsworth Maj (Rtd) from Rheindahlen 'demanding' that I registered her birth with BFG. I told him to go away, quoting Rex Specilatus.

[stackedup]

Mrs Ogre would have been born in RN hospital Mtarfa (not Luqa) and the birth would have been registered with HQ NEAF. That's not much use now but the records must be somewhere ! My first son was also born there and the birth had to be registered at the local police station and for the fee of one shilling I was issued with a form stating I had performed an act of birth !

[A2QFI]

I was born in Switzerland 2 weeks before WW2; my birth was registered with the consul in Zurich but I never had a birth certificate. After the war I needed one and my Father and I went to Somerset House; my record was located in an Odds and Sods section which dealt with births and deaths abroad, those drowned at sea etc. That said I do not think that there has been anything at Somerset House dealing with these matters for years, it was all moved up to Southport SFAIK.

My daughter was born In Akrotiri and as it was British territory (SBA), she got some variant of a normal UK Birth certificate

Link to Southport Office

Copy of birth, death and marriages certificates (http://www.sefton.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=3806)

[Tiger_mate]

Contact the Director of Public Registry, e-mail address: [email protected] with details that you have - full name and date of birth and if they find the record it could be order through their website http://www.certifikati.gov.mt

Birth certificate request form
https://secure2.gov.mt/certifikati/Images/Forms/birth.jpg

^^should read ../Images/Forms/birth.jpg^^

Maltese Public Registry Office

The Director
The Public Registry
197 Merchants Street
Valletta
Malta CMR 02

From Google:
The Malta Family History website, http://www.maltafamilyhistory. com, is a real boon to those researching British individuals with Maltese connections, including soldiers serving in the British Army and their families. On this website, you'll find nineteenth- and twentieth-century registers of baptisms, marriages and deaths in Malta, indexes of the names of those buried in cemeteries on Malta, as well as of British soldiers who were stationed there, an illuminating article on the army chapel-schools in Malta and more besides.

My daughter also has the British Consolate Hannover Certificate and has often wondered about duel nationality; well until National Service (Conscription) is mentioned at which time the subject is usually dropped.

My son has a Northern Ireland Cert and is able to claim Eire Nationality if he so wishes as are all persons born within the shores of Ireland north and south.

My other son has a Welsh Certificate. Enough said; especially when the labour was long enough for me to have got down the A55 into civilisation.

Tel: 00356 21 225 291/2
Fax: 00356 21 249 234

[deltahotel]

I was born in Oz in 1959 - deltahotel snr being on Op Grapple. My birth was registered via the High Commisssion (I think). More importantly, when I managed to lose the original, I sourced a replacement via Somerset House, so that would be my suggested starting point.

Good luck

[GreenKnight121]

Dagama, Tiger_Mate... Your kids don't need to worry about German conscription.

If neither parent was a German citizen, and the child was born before 1990, then they cannot be considered German citizens by birth... they would have to go through the full naturalization process.

If the child was born in 1990 or later they would have to formally apply for citizenship... it is not automatic.

[Ogre]

Folks

Thanks for the pointers.

The initial response from the GRO was that they could not find any record from the information we had given them. So, after raising a complaint on the GRO website we phoned (in no particular order)

Service Personnel and Veterans Agency
RAF Disclosures, Trenchard Hall Cranwell
UK High Comission, Malta
Maltese High Commission, Malta
National Archives
Disclosures Navy at Whale Island (because it was a Naval Hospital)
JCCC at Innsworth (Thanks Hilife)
MOD Main Building
....and back again

Everyone we spoke to said "Speak to the GRO" apart from the Public Records Office in Malta who directed us to a website (Thanks Tiger_mate, same place) which gave us an on-line form to fill in. We'll see what comes back from there

Eventually in desperation we phoned GRO again and actually spoke to a helpful human being. They knew exactly what we were talking about, could not see the problem, took all the details and will look into as a priority.

Addenddum: Email this morning from the GRO. When we raised the complaint we pointed out that (in 250 characters or less) we knew chapter and verse what register and entry it was as our hand writen copy tells us. We offered to send a scanned copy, and lo and behold the email asked us if we would be so kind as to do so.

So, if you are in a similar situation beware of getting a replacement if you lose the original, if/when we finally get it resolved I'll let you know where from.

P.S. I told her, if she ends up getting dragged back for military service in Malta I will not be happy....

Ogre

[teeteringhead]

My daughter also has the British Consolate Hannover Certificate and has often wondered about duel nationality; well until National Service (Conscription) is mentioned at which time the subject is usually dropped.

My son has a Northern Ireland Cert and is able to claim Eire Nationality if he so wishes as are all persons born within the shores of Ireland north and south. ... sounds like a good rotary family!

We too have one from Rinteln, one from Lagan Valley and one from Copthorne!

Turning to nationality problems, I do know of an Army mate who had some problems with his descendants - but you really have to try hard.

His son (born in Germany) married another Patch Brat - also born in Germany. Son had joined up and produced a grandchild for the Army mate - born guess where - Germany.

They did get it sorted, but after lots of paperwork, as the child and both parents were all born in Germany!

[dagama]

Dagama, Tiger_Mate... Your kids don't need to worry about German conscription.

GreenKnight - Thank you for the reassurance. Though he had more than a soft spot for the 'vaterland' in his teens, he is now very British, which is nice!

[mad_jock]

I thought the germans had just given up on it anyway?

Apparently it has completely screwed up there university intakes this year as they have 2 lots looking for places instead of the usual one.

[Lukeafb1]

My grandson was born at the U.S. Air Force hospital at Lakenheath, but transferred after two days to Norwich civilian hospital because of 'complications' (both my daughter and son-in-law were serving in the U.S.A.F. at Lakenheath) and has a U.S. Birth Certificate and Passport. However, when he is 18 (he's currently 8), he can choose whether he wants U.S. or British citizenship, apparently.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Though tracking down the relevant records may be tiresome, I don't think Mrs O has anything to worry about. My brats were born in Rinteln and Wegberg, my Dad in Singapore, my mother in Malta and my aunts and uncles in China and India in the days when we had an empire. None had any problems with certification.
I myself was nearly born in Malaya, in which case I would now be either dead or speaking Japanese.

[Union Jack]

My daughter also has the British Consolate Hannover Certificate and has often wondered about duel nationality;

Sounds like she might have a fight on her hands!:ok:

Jack

[Tiger_mate]

Its an internet forum FFS; not ISS/JOD or whatever this weeks catch phrase is :mad:

Get a life.

[November4]

I was born in Steamer Point hospital, Aden. Totally throws the questioner when I say it is now in the Republic of Yemen. That is when they have worked out where Yemen is.

A couple of years ago the Government did a study to see where people were born so that they could use this data to "target" funding for those who were born overseas. Amongst the data,

Wiltshire, Colchester, North Yorkshire and Aldershot - all centres of army life - have a combined Germany-born population of 12,000 people.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/html/overview.stm)

7.5% of people living in Britain were born abroad.
You can find out where they come from and many more key facts throughout this database - the most detailed set of immigration figures ever ssembled.

My bold

So appears that we are classed as Immigrants.....

[Unusual Attitude]

Born in Aug 74 at RAF Akrotiri, bailed out at about a week old apparently due to the Turkish neighbours getting a bit feisty.... I wonder if the driver of the VC10 is on here !?!?! Now that would be weird....

[Fitter2]

My wife was born in March 1950 in the British Military Hospital in Ceylon (family legend has it they switched off the lights and locked the doors behind them as she left) and has only a Ceylon birth cert.; that was no handicap when it came to getting a full UK passport in 1979. Previous excursions to Europe had been on the old pink card system.

[ShyTorque]

One of our Torquelet sprogs was born in Hong Kong, after the handover so a Chinese territory. She wasn't allowed local citizenship and has a British passport.

[fantom]

Mine born Bruggen. No problems with paperwork.

[bspatz]

I was born in Egypt in 1949 and my birth certificate shows the place of birth as the MF Wing Abyad Hospital with the birth registered at HQ No 205 Gp MEAF by a staff officer in the HQ - never had any problems until after I had retired and then visited Plymouth dockyard for a work meeting where I was treated as an alien!

[alisoncc]

I was born in Nottingham, but appears I can have any nationality of my choosing. Birth certificates are available in Hindi, Swahili, Sanscrit and, on special at present, Egyptian cartouche.
:ok:

Got to be an RAF brat 16 years later.

[Ogre]

The saga continues. Email this morning from the GRO, thanking us for the scanned copy of the original. Allegedly they have now found Mrs O's details and will dispatch replacement post haste. Allegedly the details were ommited from the indexes, but it has subsequently been added.

Two further things of note, the first was that the register number they listed was different from the one on the certificate (which was actually written in words not numbers, which makes it harder to believe a mistake) and the second was that their email could not even get my wifes surname right!

So if register and entry number are that important, you would think the on-line form would ask for them (if known)....

So currently we have copies coming from the Maltese public records and the UK GRO, let see if they actually match the original.

Tune in next week for the next thrilling installment.

[Robert Cooper]

My youngest son was born in Singapore and my wife was born in Habbaniya, Iraq. In addition to the local birth certificates they also have British birth certificates. My mother-in-law is buried in the british military cemetery at Habbaniya, which I believe has been desecrated.

Bob C

[Chalfonts]

I was born at the David Bruce Military Hospital at Mtarfa in Malta in 1959, my father was in the RAF and my mother is Maltese. I have a British birth certficate signed by a Mr (Flt Lt) Harold Edward Cowen who was the register of births RAF Malta, so I suspect that the certificate you are looking for must be a British one, good luck with your search.

[Blacksheep]

I was born in South Africa and was registered in Cape Town, with my parents getting a copy of the South African Birth Certificate. Dad was in the Royal Navy at the time, serving at Simonstown Naval Base. I was also registered at the British Consular Office in Cape Town and entered into my mother's passport as a British Citizen. Twenty years later in 1967 I applied for a British Passport but was told that there was no record of my birth in the British Consular Records and I could not have a British passport as I was a South African citizen. [I was presumably also an illegal immigrant, having entered UK in 1950 on a false passport :uhoh:]

I eventually claimed British Citizenship By Descent by proving from my documents that I was the legitimate child of parents who were British by birth and that my father was the legitimate child of a father who was a British citizen by birth. The citizenship law has, since then, become even stricter.

Our youngest was born in Brunei in December 1982 and under the new citizenship law that came into force at midnight on 31st, she would not have acquired British citizenship either by birth or by descent. She made it by just two weeks! As my wife is Malaysian and I am not British by birth, this could have repercussions on our children, should they move abroad to work and have children born abroad. So far all our grandchildren have been born in UK.

[Ogre]

First passed the post was the Maltese Public Records Office! From ordering to delivery it took seven days, Mrs Ogre is now in possession of two full Maltese birth certificates. Funnily enough they contain more information than the UK full one does, such as Grandfathers name(s)

We are still waiting for the UK version to turn up........

[OldnDaft]

My 2 were born at Viersen when I served at Bruggen - no problems with registration etc.

[Pontius Navigator]

This has been going on forever.

GF PN was Irish and serving in the Indian Army. PN's mum was born in Calcutta pre-Irish independence. The bureaucrats tried to make out she had Indian nationality - nothing changes.

[Pontius Navigator]

I eventually claimed British Citizenship By Descent by proving from my documents that I was the legitimate child of parents who were British by birth and that my father was the legitimate child of a father who was a British citizen by birth. The citizenship law has, since then, become even stricter.

Our youngest was born in Brunei in December 1982 and under the new citizenship law that came into force at midnight on 31st, she would not have acquired British citizenship either by birth or by descent.

While BS is correct in that citizenship is not passed on if the parent is a citizen by descent I believe that service in Crown service supercedes that.

The relevant leaflet is BN6:

BN6 - Children who are born outside the United Kingdom to parents in crown, designated or EC institution service (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/britishcitizenship/informationleaflets/bnchapters/bn6.pdf)

[84nomore]

My son was born at PMRAFH Akrotiri in 2001 and we had no problems getting a birth certificate, however, one problem arose later.

On entering the USA, the Border Control officer would not let him enter stating that as he was Cypriot (place of birth Akrotiri Cyprus on British Passport:rolleyes:), he was ineligible for the Visa Waiver Programme. A very concerned Mrs 84 and a very irate me, we eventually got through to them that as a serving RAF officer, I was highly unimpressed with their treatment of 'foreign' military personnel and questioned if the same applied to the children of American military personnel serving overseas. After much discussion, a most enjoyable family holiday to Disney followed:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

On entering the USA, the Border Control officer would not let him enter stating that as he was Cypriot (place of birth Akrotiri Cyprus on British Passport:rolleyes:)

Not quite the same but I had my passport renewed (for free) at the BHC in Nicosia. A couple of years later I presented at the Yugoslav border on the drive home and was refused entry. Our co, my navigator for the drive home was OK. It was pointed out that I did not had the stamp "Right of Entry to the United Kingdom" in the passport.

I pointed out that it was thus written in sky blue ink with the magic words. No good. The British Embassy had instructed the authorities that only passports with that STAMP were permitted as too many people were driving from places well to the east and then camping out in the embassy grounds.

I had to return to Thesalonika and get a visa.

PS, you were lucky as they are not noted for their SoH or tolerance. A friend entering the USA, as he did frequently, had a plaster on his finger. When asked why he replied "Cut myself perhaps?" He was lucky they let him in but they delayed him for nearly an hour.

[Shackman]

84nomore:
You and your son were lucky; my son, also born in TPMH but some 20 years earlier was also refused permission to enter the US when travelling on his British passport as he had put RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus as his place of birth in the ESTA and was therefore also ineligible for the Visa waiver programme. After a fairly intense interrogation he was imprisoned for 24 hours then deported - handcuffs and manacles to the airport, and 'restrained' on the aircraft until clear of US territory.

On a positive note he has now acquired a full visa to enter the States, although still has a stamp on EVERY page of his passport stating he was refused permission to enter the USA, and has a fairly heavy interview with Homeland Security on every visit.

[daviddb]

Father was pupped 1913 when Grandad, a soldier, was stationed at Weihaiwei on the North China Coast. A couple of years later in 1915 Granddad had reason to be in Tientsin (Tianjin as it must now be known) popped into the British Consulate and give or take a few inexactitudes on precise dates and places that vexed Granny no end got Dad a birth certificate that covered the essentials

Happily this proved to be no obstacle when Dad joined the RAF in 1938 or indeed I (pupped at Halton in '54) when I proposed to take a Queens Shilling of a more salty complexion in '68.

Perhaps all three of us were lucky not to run into the demon Jobsworth. :ok:

[84nomore]

Shackman,

Since been back to the US with no problems. Can't remember what I put on the ESTA, but probably missed out the RAF bit as it doesn't say that on the passport.

[Whopity]

RAF Brats born overseasFor as long as I can remember an RAF Brat was a nickname used to describe a Halton Apprentice (http://www.87thhalton.org.uk/Tribute.htm) not the offspring of Service people.

[daviddb]

Not 'Trenchard Brats' ?

Hey-ho. Language moves......

[212man]

You and your son were lucky; my son, also born in TPMH but some 20 years earlier was also refused permission to enter the US when travelling on his British passport as he had put RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus as his place of birth in the ESTA and was therefore also ineligible for the Visa waiver programme. After a fairly intense interrogation he was imprisoned for 24 hours then deported - handcuffs and manacles to the airport, and 'restrained' on the aircraft until clear of US territory

That's curious, because I have been entering the US several times per year for the last 16 years, with entry points East, central and Western, and never had a query or problem. Looking at my passport right now, I see I have the place of birth as simply "RAF Akrotiri" so perhaps that's part of the answer.

[radar101]

For as long as I can remember an RAF Brat was a nickname used to describe a Halton Apprentice (http://www.87thhalton.org.uk/Tribute.htm) not the offspring of Service people


To be correct, us RAF offspring were Scale E brats!

[melmothtw]

I have Mtarfa, Malta, as my place of birth in my passport and have never had any trouble entering the US on my UK passport.

Having entered the country through numerous entry points I have only been questioned once about my place of birth. After a 30 second explanation I was waived through.

Maybe Malta is part of the waiver scheme while Cyprus isn't, not sure...

...and having just checked, Malta is indeed eligible under the waiver scheme, while Cyprus is not. That explains that then.

[philrigger]

;)

To be correct, us RAF offspring were Scale E brats!

This term comes up for discussion every now and again.

Nobody has ever convinced me of the correctness of the term Scale E. Scale E of what? When? and Where? What were Scales A, B, C and D? Someone did try and tell me that it was an admin type scale, possibly pay accounts. I have used the term 'scaley brats' but never had the original meaning proved to my satisfaction. Someone did try and tell me it was some form of accounts scale but no one in accounts could find anything on it.

The term military brat is an English-language colloquial or military slang most notable for its usage in a pejorative context, used in several countries to describe the children and teenagers of active-duty military personnel, wiki

I was brought up on the airman's married patch (1940s-1960s) and lived/worked for all but 5 years of my 63 year life on RAF stations and the term brat was used both forms. Even in my time as a Boy Entrant the training staff (Non ex Halton) referred to us as Brats!

I know the ex Halton Brats do not like other people to be called by this name.

Just thought I would throw it in the ring.


Phil.

[teeteringhead]

In addition to Scaley (or possibly Scale E) Brats, I've heard the term "Patch Brats" for service children ....

[Lyyne]

Hi... i was born in Malta in 1964, won't bore you with the many complicated issues this has thrown up for the duration of my entire life (lol) but i have had the same birth certificate problem haunt me through many challenges so imagine my surprise to finally track down my very own British b/c which had been held in..Portsmouth for my full existence...hopefully this helps, if not, it has to be out there and its a very strange feeling seeing it for the first time ..aged 44.

[plans123]

I had more trouble gaining my initial UK passport as my birth certificate states BMH Dhekalia, the gentleman of foreign persuasion who dealt with the case at the Newport passport office said I was a cypriot not British and thus not entitled to a passport... Right up until I waived my 1250 under his nose and pointed out that it was/is a British Military base...

Never had an issue entering the USA though with Dhekalia on my passport though.

[chopd95]

Number one son was born at Mtarfa (says so on his driving licence) , seem to recall that the birth was registerd at a maltese police station and with the Royal Navy admin people. There was a slight glicht at some stage with the pasport office, but after much loft searching and production of the original docs - no problem with his worldwide travels thereafter

[ian16th]

July 7 survivor faces deportation from Britain - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9514323/July-7-survivor-faces-deportation-from-Britain.html)

An Army brat, buy still a consequence of stupid laws.

[Twon]

Ian16th,

I'm sure there will be some complex legislation that the Home Office can quote stating Prof T is in the wrong. However, it stinks, particularly in the light of other decisions on "asylum"!

My daughter was born overseas as a scaley; I will now be thoroughly checking her status even though I was previously informed that there will not be an issue in the future (she holds a British birth cert and one from the country of birth!)

It wouldn't be the first time the Government/civil service has shown such duplicity.

[ian16th]

A significant part of these problems is that the current generation of not so civil servants are utterly unaware of the circumstances of married service life in the 50's and 60's.

Is this not a case for the Veterans Agency to be roped in to do a little liaising with the Home Office?

[Shackman]

Not so much a case of not so civil 'servants' as the computer it says NO'. Tick boxes rule, and it is much easier to deport law abiding tax paying members of the community than the many thousands who have gone off the radar and then claim human rights to stay if they are found.

[BizJetJock]

My sister rarely leaves the shores of Albion, her passport having the lovely words "Place of birth - Benghazi, Libya". You can imagine the trouble that used to cause....

[JSavage]

Folks

Mrs Ogre is a RAF Brat, she was born in Malta when her Father was stationed over there in the 60's, to be precise she was born in the navy hospital at Luqa. She has a birth certificate which is an RAF form, gives all the details of her birth and was signed by the RAF Register officer for Malta.

Now, she currently needs to get a copy of her birth certificate, so a bit of a google search directed her to the General Register Office. As we are not in the UK, she sent off the forms and today received a reply.

Basically, the GRO can't find any record of the birth. She phoned then, and was basically told they do not hold military birth records (even though the National Archive website says they do), and was told to phone the British High Commission in Malta.

We did some further digging, tried Kentigern House, tried the RAF disclosures office at Cranwell, and no-one can tell us who holds the birth records and can provide a copy of the certificate.

So great and wise forum, has anyone out there tried a similar quest? Has anyone tried to get a copy of a birth certificate for a child born overseas to serving military personnel. If so, where die you go?

Ogre
Hi
I wonder if anyone can help me..
I was born at the David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa, Malta on 08th July 1973..
My father E.J.J Sav**e was a seamen serving the The Crown Royal Navy and was commissioned on "The Rhyl" at that time of my birth. My mother M. Sav**e is Maltese..
I am finding some difficulties to get a British birth certificate.. I do not know who signed off my Birth at David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa on 08th July 1973.. In this instance my mum has given me an indication that the Cesarean section doctor who gave birth to me was Dr. Jackson at the time which i am assuming he registered and signed off the Royal Navy births at David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa, Malta back in 1973.. Is there anyone who can help me and maybe indicate where i can get and find this information as it is very important and I need get this Birth Certificate to pass it on to the Home Office.. Now, I currently need to get a copy of my birth certificate which I have made contact with the General Register Office (GRO) earlier today, but the GRO can't find any records of my birth at David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa, Malta.. I done some further digging and tried The UK National Archives and I`m not getting any positive feedback either who holds these birth records for overseas births and can provide me with a copy of the certificate.
Can anyone who`s experienced the same issues please help me..
Thanks
JSavage

[sarahrosierose]

my mum was born in rinteln germany 5th april 1960.
why we confused as family secret to who her father was and what secret about her birth.

she was born in military camp when her supposed father served royal air force.
she has two birth certificates with different information.
two different birth registered dates one was 1 year later, and two different father rank signed as notification.

Where can we find out her true birth record and information on this matter?

[Nolongerin]

I’m afraid that I can only address one question. Rinteln Army Hospital was used by RAF personnel who were stationed in that area, the main camp being RAF Gutersloh.

[Ninthace]

If the certificates you have are copies of official records then going to the source is unlikely to show anything different. Such records as Wegberg or Rinteln held are likely to be in an archive.

[bspatz]

I was born in Egypt in 1949 and my birth certificate was issued by HQ 205 Group RAF MEAF signed by a Wg Cdr at RAF Shallufah and a Sqn Ldr at HQ 205 group. I have taken great care of it as I am not sure whether I could ever get it replaced! If nothing else it is now probably a rare historical document.

[Heidhurtin]

My daughter was born in Kuala Belait, Brunei, in 2007. We had to take the Bruneian birth certificate to the High Commission to get a UK version, then get her UK passport, then the residence stamp, (all within 60 days or she'd have been classed as an illegal resident). Slightly complicated by the fact that Mrs Heidhurtin is Belizean by birth, although naturalised UK citizen at the time of birth. Sorted by the BHC who were great.

My daughter's travelled with me many times to the USA using the ESTA process and never had a problem despite putting Kuala Belait as the place of birth. I haven't, however, tried to obtain a copy of her birth certificate, both originals are closely guarded. This thread is a useful pre-warning......

[Ninthace]

We keep all documents of this type. plus passports and insurance policies in a lockable fireproof box in a locked steel filing cabinet - belt & braces. We also have copies of the photo page of our passports on our phones. Now where did I put the keys?

[212man]

My daughter was born in Kuala Belait, Brunei, in 2007. We had to take the Bruneian birth certificate to the High Commission to get a UK version, then get her UK passport, then the residence stamp, (all within 60 days or she'd have been classed as an illegal resident). Slightly complicated by the fact that Mrs Heidhurtin is Belizean by birth, although naturalised UK citizen at the time of birth. Sorted by the BHC who were great.

My daughter's travelled with me many times to the USA using the ESTA process and never had a problem despite putting Kuala Belait as the place of birth. I haven't, however, tried to obtain a copy of her birth certificate, both originals are closely guarded. This thread is a useful pre-warning......
I don't think the place of birth will be an issue - it's the citizenship they look at

[212man]

My sister rarely leaves the shores of Albion, her passport having the lovely words "Place of birth - Benghazi, Libya". You can imagine the trouble that used to cause....
I should have been born in Tobruk, and often wonder what the ramifications of that would have been. Fortunately - if you can say that - my mother had Preeclampsia and had to be MEDEVAC'ed to Akrotiri.........

[steve_oc]

I was also born in Malta at the RNH at Mtarfa (incidentally now a secondary school) to serving British parents (RN) and have a Maltese birth certificate. Never any problems with UK passport or travel.

[Heidhurtin]

I don't think the place of birth will be an issue - it's the citizenship they look at
Agreed, I was referring to an earlier post, copied below 'cos I don't know how to quote 2 posts in one reply, but just realised that it's from 2011.......

"On entering the USA, the Border Control officer would not let him enter stating that as he was Cypriot (place of birth Akrotiri Cyprus on British Passporthttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif), he was ineligible for the Visa Waiver Programme."

[212man]

Agreed, I was referring to an earlier post, copied below 'cos I don't know how to quote 2 posts in one reply, but just realised that it's from 2011.......

"On entering the USA, the Border Control officer would not let him enter stating that as he was Cypriot (place of birth Akrotiri Cyprus on British Passporthttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif), he was ineligible for the Visa Waiver Programme."
Ah, yes I see it now, and my earlier response! BTW we were in Brunei together (I was there 2005-2013)!

[Heidhurtin]

Ah, yes I see it now, and my earlier response! BTW we were in Brunei together (I was there 2005-2013)!
[Thread drift warning]. You made 8 years? I managed, by some methods which I will strenuously deny if questioned, to stretch my 2-year posting to 4; 2006 - 2010. Absolutely the best (and final) tour of my somewhat extended career.

Fond memories of the 212's and 7 Flt, all gone now I hear. Replaced by Pumas, I wonder how well they're doing.....

[Mil-26Man]

"On entering the USA, the Border Control officer would not let him enter stating that as he was Cypriot (place of birth Akrotiri Cyprus on British Passporthttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif), he was ineligible for the Visa Waiver Programme."

It would be interesting to know exactly how many people now in the UK who were "born overseas" are forces brats. There must be tens of thousands, and it must impact the immigration figures without anyone realising it.

[Gordomac]

Curious read. Caught my attention on a housebound day, but get this folks. Yes, agreed ; the US Visa waiver stuff is based upon citizenship, not place of birth.

The Brunei case was a flashback. Based in Bahrain, we had tons of expats living illegally in the Kingdom. Some had kids born there and fell into the 60 day grace period.

My case is a right larf. Born in British India pre-partition, of British parents (Dad a Major in the British Army, oft called the British Indian Army (!). I entered the earth plane existence in Secunderabad, a Princely State within Hyderabad and, technically, not part, therefore of "British India" but it is where the British Military Hospital was. Gees, immagine, over the years, the fun I have had with that little lot.

Travelled all over the world on my parent's passports. Holding a UK passport does not, necessarily mean that one is a UK Citizen. Don't know if it is still in use but we were all issued with UK passports but it had on the title page, "British Subject with the right of abode in the United Kingdom".

As a Viscount First Officer with Northeast Airlines at Leeds Bradford, my middle Sis warned me to change my status to "citizen" as there was something going on that I was blissfully unaware of. Big sis escaped the toxic home environment to Elba, Italy, married at the first opportunity to a local waiter ,kept her Brit Subject status but was warned that she would have to choose between Italian status or British status under the new rules

I investigated and was offered quick paper-work and interview to become a UK Citizen or become an Indian. I would lose my right of abode too. Blimey, not making this up. I asked the Leeds lot that since I was seeing a Russian chic, could I be a "Red-Indian" but nische bloke from Wakefield didn't even giggle.

Interview was even funnier. Middle-aged Lady with delightful hat covered in plastic fruit stepped me through the swearing-in process in a luvley northern accent. Faced with a Secunderabadian, (turned out looking like the Head-waiter from the Balti..........another really long story...........) she was very slow and deliberate in asking me to repeat her words. Astonished by my cut-glass BBC accent(southern) she nearly fell of her chair, expecting an Indian accent. She looked in admiration and said; " May I say Gordon, you do have a loovlee accent "..

So, all you lot born in British Military hospitals in places that were not under British Rule, check you are not holding a passport that shows you to be a British Subject.

Awaiting the Nazeem of Secunderabad to tell me that I am in line for a massive "local" citizen share of millions of rupees. I will drop the "Bort I'm BRITISH.....thru and thru...." !

[Mil-26Man]

the US Visa waiver stuff is based upon citizenship, not place of birth.

In the application form it asks specifically for your place of birth. I know as I am a forces brat born overseas to a serving RAF father, and have come up against this issue personally. I was born in what is today a friendly EU country and so the 'problem' is usually squared away quite easily, but had my father been based in a now not-so-friendly Middle East country, I imagine it might not be so simple.

[Gordomac]

Mil ; It probably also asks, specifically for "Citizenship" detail, then, place of birth. With the waiver programme, had I pitched up with a British passport showing place of birth as Secunderabad and British Subject status, I too might have been in for some serious jail potential Q and A's.

When the programme started, I was planning on USA leave. I checked with the British Council & the American Embassy. Both were very clear that the waiver was for "Citizens". Were I to have had in possession the old passport with "British Subject" status I would not have been granted entry.

Leeds, 1972, I obtained a certificate of registration changing my status. Subsequent passport renewals just showed " citizen "automatically...

I never had any problems but got some seriously funny looks at Border Security, mostly USA and UK (would you believe) when close inspection of my Brit passport, as a Brit Citizen, showed this very odd place of birth. Never denied entry anywhere but in the UK, one time, pretty Indian Security Officer had to call for Supervisor in case me, looking like an Aab terrorist, in my best Amani going away suit, resident of an Arabian Gulf STate was all that I said I was. It was just after 9-11.

Cleared, asked her if she fancied a curry but got a real dagger look.

[Mil-26Man]

Mil ; It probably also asks, specifically for "Citizenship" detail, then, place of birth. With the waiver programme, had I pitched up with a British passport showing place of birth as Secunderabad and British Subject status, I too might have been in for some serious jail potential Q and A's.

When the programme started, I was planning on USA leave. I checked with the British Council & the American Embassy. Both were very clear that the waiver was for "Citizens". Were I to have had in possession the old passport with "British Subject" status I would not have been granted entry.

Leeds, 1972, I obtained a certificate of registration changing my status. Subsequent passport renewals just showed " citizen "automatically...

I never had any problems but got some seriously funny looks at Border Security, mostly USA and UK (would you believe) when close inspection of my Brit passport, as a Brit Citizen, showed this very odd place of birth. Never denied entry anywhere but in the UK, one time, pretty Indian Security Officer had to call for Supervisor in case me, looking like an Aab terrorist, in my best Amani going away suit, resident of an Arabian Gulf STate was all that I said I was. It was just after 9-11.

Cleared, asked her if she fancied a curry but got a real dagger look.

The only issue I have ever had was a few years ago, coming back into the UK through a quite minor sea port I was pulled aside by an immigration officer and taken to a room where I was quizzed about my place of birth. Having explained to their satisfaction how I came to be born in the particular hospital and country I was, I asked why I had been singled out for questioning, to be told, "You're the fifth person to come through this port today who was born in that hospital, and it was beginning to look a little suspicious!"

[Mogwi]

Hi
I wonder if anyone can help me..
I was born at the David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa, Malta on 08th July 1973..
My father E.J.J Sav**e was a seamen serving the The Crown Royal Navy and was commissioned on "The Rhyl" at that time of my birth. My mother M. Sav**e is Maltese..
I am finding some difficulties to get a British birth certificate.. I do not know who signed off my Birth at David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa on 08th July 1973.. In this instance my mum has given me an indication that the Cesarean section doctor who gave birth to me was Dr. Jackson at the time which i am assuming he registered and signed off the Royal Navy births at David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa, Malta back in 1973.. Is there anyone who can help me and maybe indicate where i can get and find this information as it is very important and I need get this Birth Certificate to pass it on to the Home Office.. Now, I currently need to get a copy of my birth certificate which I have made contact with the General Register Office (GRO) earlier today, but the GRO can't find any records of my birth at David Bruce RNH, Mtarfa, Malta.. I done some further digging and tried The UK National Archives and I`m not getting any positive feedback either who holds these birth records for overseas births and can provide me with a copy of the certificate.
Can anyone who`s experienced the same issues please help me..
Thanks
JSavage

Surgeon Commander Mike Jackson RN was my father-in-law. Small world!

Mog