Warning - That Kool Video = Loss Of Licence. [Archive]

Aussie Bob

17th Oct 2011, 05:19

The guy states that the flight went to 10,000 feet and I assume that that is legal. The clouds look like they are are ound 3000 feet or lower. The VFR at this altitude is clear of cloud and in sight of the ground (assuming class G). Look carefully at the clouds on take off. Are these towering to 10,000?

If you IFR guys have your heads buryied in the cockpit at 3000 feet on a day like depicted then I feel sorry for your pax and lament your flying skills.

IMHO if CASA even felt remotely like prosecuting this guy I would say they have far too much time on their hands.

I still maintain this is simply a trike pilot having fun :hmm:

baswell

17th Oct 2011, 05:33

Look carefully at the clouds on take off. Are these towering to 10,000?
No, but tops above 3000' in my estimation.

If you IFR guys have your heads buryied in the cockpit at 3000 feet on a day like depicted then I feel sorry for your pax and lament your flying skills.
Think for a second what happens when you are flying VFR just above the clouds while an IFR flight is climbing THROUGH said clouds. "heads buryied in the cockpit" has nothing to do with this problem. You can't avoid what you can't see.

IMHO if CASA even felt remotely like prosecuting this guy I would say they have far too much time on their hands.
I do agree with that, but a stern reminder of the rules might be in order.

VH-XXX

17th Oct 2011, 06:10

Why shouldn't CASA have a go at this guy?

If you are *dumb* enough to break the rules and put it on video for all to see then you get what you deserve. If you break the rules and don't put it on video, you also get what you deserve.

Low flying, yeah sure, you're not really hurting anyone except yourself and scaring some innocent birds, but buzzing around cloud where an innocent RPT operator or IFR job might be punching through, well that's a different story.

Ultralights

17th Oct 2011, 06:24

is it safe to assume he is on the correct area freq, in contact with (or monitoring centre freq) and aware of any IFR traffic in the area, if any at all?? or, god forbid a trike pilot actually calling up centre and telling them his location? so they can advise IFR traffic of VFR in the area....

Aussie Bob

17th Oct 2011, 06:40

Think for a second what happens when you are flying VFR just above the clouds while an IFR flight is climbing THROUGH said clouds. "heads buryied in the cockpit" has nothing to do with this problem. You can't avoid what you can't see.

I take your point here Baswell. I am unfamiliar with the area but if it is in the vicinity of an airport where an IFR departure is a possibility then he needs his arse kicked, but if he is in the middle of nowhere?

Really, how many VFR pilots are there out there that have never been close to cloud and is he really likely to make a wrong turn and end up in the cloud?

IMHO there will be far more incriminating videos around than this one.

PilotInPink

17th Oct 2011, 06:54

The thing that concerns me most is the guys who mess around, push the aircraft to its limits, bend the law, and then go on to be instructors... Just what kind of example are they setting? And who knows what they might be teaching their students!

I've seen video examples of a guy low flying (not in a designated low fly zone of course), and later doing aerobatic manoeuvres for which he was certainly not rated, both with a passenger who filmed the entire thing. And what did the chief instructor do? Ask him to remove the videos from youtube because 'it might bring a bad name to the flight school'. No consequences for the pilot of course.

Perhaps if the authorities did crack down it would send a message to these guys to sharpen up, or maybe they will just learn to cover their tracks better. :hmm:

T28D

17th Oct 2011, 07:21

Are ultralights limited to 5000 ft VFR ??????????

This clown by admission is going to 10,000 ft sans Transponder

TCAS has no chance of seeing him

Ultralights

17th Oct 2011, 07:58

Recreational aircraft are permitted to 10,000, not sure of Weight shift, as they are governed by a different body again, the Hang glider federation of Oz, and i have seen a few Hang gliders, non radio equipped, around 8500... while im cruising at the same altitude. (usually west of katoomba) now thats a far more scary thought.... :sad:

nitpicker330

17th Oct 2011, 07:59

You gotta love the quality of the Video, really sharp and clear.
Nice view too.

Now, if he had a radio and used it correctly so some poor IFR sod didn't have a Heart attack then I don't really see a safety problem.

VH-XXX

17th Oct 2011, 08:54

RA-Aus can now legally go over 5000 ft even if not required due to terrain, which was the prior arrangement.

I haven't fully perused the said website however this aircraft could potentially be registered through the HGFA and therefore different rules may apply.

j3pipercub

17th Oct 2011, 10:08

2 minutes on google will give you all the info you need, the aircraft is registered with the HGFA, the PIC is also a CFI of the microlight school at exmouth. If you have a look at the gallery for the website listed in the video, you will also see some interesting pictures with regards to distance to clouds and low flying.

Furthermore, if you were all indeed worried about the conduct of the pilot, you should have already been in contact with the HGFA's Operations Manager, his contact details are clearly available on the HGFA's website. That is what I did and they are investigating the matter.

j3

p.s. fyi, Hang Gliders are approved to 10,000ft OCTA

scroogee

17th Oct 2011, 10:21

j3- how dare you actually do some research, find facts and act upon your concerns in the real world- this website is for rumours, mud slinging, arm chair flying and general criticism...

VH-XXX

17th Oct 2011, 10:29

Yes J3, that's not the pprune way ! :ouch:

Aussie Bob

17th Oct 2011, 10:48

That is what I did and they are investigating the matter.

Oh dear, how distinctly un Australian, dobbing in to the authorities. Hope it made you feel special Mr. Wannabe cub pilot. I guess your flying is always perfect.

morno

17th Oct 2011, 11:10

Hey Bob, when and where are you flying next? Just so I know to stay right away from the area..... :ugh:

j3pipercub

17th Oct 2011, 11:13

Thanks Aussie Bob,

how distinctly un Australian, dobbing in to the authorities.

If I am un-Australian because I give a damn about the other pilots I share the sky with, the students this guy will teach and the passengers he will take flying, then I can live with that.

I guess your flying is always perfect.

My flying is very average, my last cyclic confirmed that! However I still remember what the Testing Officer who did my CPL test "Son, the rules are written in the blood of those who have gone before you".

Hope it made you feel special Mr. Wannabe cub pilot.

With regard to your 'special' comment, no I don't dob to feel special, I pay strippers to feel special.

j3

Jack Ranga

17th Oct 2011, 11:37

Oh dear, how distinctly un Australian, dobbing in to the authorities.

Are you serious mate? What would you have him do, wait on the ground then punch his lights out? That's a bit more Aaaaaahstrayan isn't it eh?

aroa

17th Oct 2011, 12:03

... its an unravelling wheat bag..Hang gliders trikes, IFR, clouds even.???

Meanwhile the helicopter pilot lost his CPL and his ability to earn a living, because some "experts" in the AAT agree with the "CASA must be satisfied" and "not a fit and proper person" line.
So from a video clip taken by a phoney wakner passenger, pulling Gs he said, (pulling something else in reality) in a Robbo deemed to be too low, or too steep a turn... and Robinson the manufacturer sees no problem at all, CASA has a retributive win, having lost in court before.
Interesting to note the CASA "experts" had so litle helicopter flying time, they wouldnt even get a job in the industry.

If like thinking continues the low level use of heli-mustering will have to cease because its just all too dangerous.

Its yet another case of the anally retentive punitive approach to "safety" so beloved by the regulator.

The pilot will move on, but not in this aviation industry under the current Soviet. :mad:

ps: stay away from clouds. :=

jas24zzk

17th Oct 2011, 13:24

Aroa,
as much as I agree with you, i also disagree.

This guy clearly crossed some boundaries. He clearly operated outside of the AFM/POH and some recourse is appropriate. Pulling his ticket?? i'd say no. A fine and some retraining i'd agree with.

we spend the price of a house on our tickets (depends where you are buying) even more so for helo jocks (unless ex-military) and to have the 'regulator' pull your ticket in this way is crap, they are taking away your right to earn a living.

Think about the fit and proper person legislation. You could accidently bust CTA, do the right thing and own up when centre calls, and uner this legislation lose your ticket....how fair is that?

if you wanna push it that far, then the cops can take your car licence for being 1kph over the limit, as you are not a fit and proper person. And that ladies is what we are talking about, as thats how they got this guy.

Reading the regs as they are, there is no room for, i f*cked up and made a mistake, its all sun or gloom.

Cheers
Jas

aerobatologist

17th Oct 2011, 20:19

The guy states that the flight went to 10,000 feet and I assume that that is legal. The clouds look like they are are ound 3000 feet or lower. The VFR at this altitude is clear of cloud and in sight of the ground (assuming class G). Look carefully at the clouds on take off. Are these towering to 10,000?
Above 3000' the VFR rules are 1000' vertical separation from cloud, 1500m horizontal separation, and 5km visibility - not just "clear of cloud and in sight of the ground". Its hard to judge distances in a grainy youtube video, but it certainly appears that the pilot busted this VFR rule.

Aussie Bob

17th Oct 2011, 21:58

I guess all this boils down to is the rift between GA and RAA. Here we have the ancient tin drivers from a dying industry, jealous of the modern breed of aviators who have the new machinery, the young clientelle and the fun.

You sprout forth inanities like "keep clear of cloud" when the rules permit "clear of cloud ops". Here in the real world VFR pilots fly "fin in the clouds" regularly but when some guy in a trike does it for fun you are outraged. Outraged enough to turn into judge, jury and executioner. Outraged enough to dob in a mate.

What you fail to see is a bloke having fun in some inversion limited Cu that in all liklihood is below 3000 feet. Look at the take off, note the wide angle lense. Hopefully the end result of dobbing this guy in will be someone with nouse looking at it and realising that the complaint is nothing more than hot wind from a safety vest wearing nobody in GA.

Real pilots respect all who fly and I note when I travel that it is the RAA pilot who is the first to offer me a lift into town, lend me tools, have a drink with me, invite me to his house, and its the RAA folk who are often the most interesting to talk to.

You mob should olso note: Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obeyance of fools.

baswell

17th Oct 2011, 22:23

I guess all this boils down to is the rift between GA and RAA.
I only have an RA-Aus ticket and own an ultralight. Rift does not apply.

Here in the real world VFR pilots fly "fin in the clouds" regularly
As do I all the time, somewhere between the Adelaide Hills hard stuff and the 2500' CTA step. Well below the LSALT where an IFR flight might descend onto me. And it's fun! I just do not go seek it out at altitude...

Clouds below 3000'? My eyes are wide angle too and and I know very well what 3000' clouds look like from the ground, seeing them above the 2000' hills all the time.

If this was all below 3,000' and he did not break any rules, I guess they guy would have said so instead of pulling his video off the net.

VH-XXX

17th Oct 2011, 22:28

This discussion, pilot, etc have NOTHING to do with the RAA.

The aircraft is registered under HGFA - The Hang Gliding Federation of Australia. Different rules, different registration.

Question for the smart ones here: Do you think that this kind of flying "clear of cloud" in the video shown is ok, as long as you are below 3,000ft? (rules and regulations aside), as in right next to the cloud with a wing almost in it, regardless of aircraft type? Can't someone else still smack straight into you?

j3pipercub

18th Oct 2011, 00:38

Aussie,

I also have an RAA ticket along with my ATPL, argument invalid. I do wear a high vis vest, all major airports and companies tend to make sure of it to reduce their liability in the event of an accident invloving baggage/freight tugs and people. And yes, I may very well be a nobody in GA, however I'm proud of my hot air. I have used the CAIR system and 225'd GA guys as well as RAA. I make no distinction between registrations if somebody is being dangerous.

The entire reason I report people is not to feel powerful, it is so I can sleep at night. If I say nothing, the offender continues unchecked and perhaps even spirals into more dangerous behaviours, resulting in injury or death. On the other hand, if an individual is reported, even if all that happens is a talking to, it may arrest the dangerous risk taking behaviour. I have sat back an said nothing in the past and it resulted in the death of a pilot. It isn't a nice feeling.

Also Aussie,

I've just figured you out. Your '25 years' of aviation has been spent in Aero Club bars as a 500 hour PPL wonder. Perhaps the CFI gave you a CPL safe in the knowledge you'll never use it, apart from bragging rights at said bars. You tell war stories about fly-aways, think that 15 knots of crosswind is huge and have never flown anything bigger than the amount of fuel I carry as tempo fuel (about 900kg). The Instructors think you are a hazard but anyone with less than about 30 hours thinks you're a hero (that is until they ge more than 30 hours).

You forgot what the first 'P' in the website name stands for. Think you should be contributing to the forum below

Recreational Flying Forums (http://www.recreationalflying.com.au/)

j3

glekichi

18th Oct 2011, 01:04

Appears the couple of months off PPRUNE hasn't calmed J3 down any.

Towering Q

18th Oct 2011, 01:18

FWIW, and I'm not condoning illegal behaviour, the location in this instance is relevant.

The video seems to suggest the pilot is operating well north of Learmonth. If this is the case, then IFR flights on descent shouldn't be an issue. Any IFR flights arriving into Learmonth from Karratha or Onslow will be crossing the Exmouth Gulf well away from the "cloud surfing" activities.

have never flown anything bigger than the amount of fuel I carry as tempo fuel (about 900kg).

Oh dear....

mcgrath50

18th Oct 2011, 01:29

Do you think that this kind of flying "clear of cloud" in the video shown is ok, as long as you are below 3,000ft? (rules and regulations aside), as in right next to the cloud with a wing almost in it, regardless of aircraft type? Can't someone else still smack straight into you?

If you are clear of cloud, and that can mean your tail is skimming in the cloud, then yes it's legal. Obviously you are compromising safety to a certain extent. Really by how much depends how you mitigate it. Transponder on, Radio on to Centre and CTAFs, good look out, lights on in a relatively quite area. I'm comfortable, if it's for a reasonable amount of time, I don't want the whole flight to be like this. Usually I will be flying like this due to 'stress of weather' ie; cloud low, terrain high (such as showers sitting on a ridge) and you are going somewhere between 500-1000ft.

Ultralights

18th Oct 2011, 01:58

so before dobbing him in, i take it you have acertained he has no transponder, or hasnt used the radio correctly and told others of his whereabouts, is close to IFR waypoints/approaches etc. as said before, fin in the clouds is still legal below set altitudes.

VH-XXX

18th Oct 2011, 02:20

I assume the clear of cloud below 3,000ft reg only exists so you aren't expected to keep 1,000ft below it down low and as such putting yourself unnecessarily close to terrain. When you think about it, being "clear" of cloud by 5 metres is just as unsafe as being clear of cloud by 5 metres at 10,000 ft so the same rigours should apply.

Any IFR flights arriving into Learmonth from Karratha or Onslow will be crossing the Exmouth Gulf well away from the "cloud surfing" activities.

To suggest that IFR flights won't be arriving into Exmouth from a certain direction is utterly ridiculous.

J3- that forum is pretty much dead now. 90% of the active users left there last week after the operator kicked off / banned a number of the regular contributors. Thousands of posts have been deleted and at the moment there are around 3 or 4 regular posters. Some would say Karma. He is reportedly kindly trying to invite them all back again :ugh:

Jabawocky

18th Oct 2011, 02:57

The video seems to suggest the pilot is operating well north of Learmonth. If this is the case, then IFR flights on descent shouldn't be an issue.

TQ, just lets think about this a bit more, if you were IFR and inbound to Exmouth you could justifiably be using the grid LSALT of 2500 or the MSA from Learmonth as a pilot calculated LSALT of 2300, so it may be that you find a RFDS King Air or an RV10:E (and I have been there...nice place too :ok:) or any number of other IFR arrivals. So you can't just consider Learmonth as the only threat.

mcgrath50

18th Oct 2011, 03:41

Whether or not there is IFR traffic is around is irrelevant, rightly or wrongly the rules say above 3,000ft you need 1,000ft vertical clearance and 1,500m horizontal. By the looks of this video, he is breaking that. If he is, I dont think we can excuse that because it's fun.

VMC criteria have been made for a reason. It wouldn't be the first time someone was flying close to clouds, got distracted, head down (or turned around to wave at the camera), flew into cloud and ended up disorientated. The end result? A crash.

If you think the buffer is to big, work to have it changed. Personally I think the speed limits on the hume highway are way to low, but that wouldn't be a good excuse to give to the cops when caught speeding!

Towering Q

18th Oct 2011, 03:50

To suggest that IFR flights won't be arriving into Exmouth from a certain direction is utterly ridiculous

How dare one suggest such a thing, how utterly contemptible of me!!:eek:

I was simply suggesting that, due to Learmonth's (and Exmouths) location at the NW corner of WA, there wouldn't be much in the way of IFR traffic arriving from the north or west.

The exceptions would be; the choppers servicing the gas platforms, the rare international flight using YPLM as an alternate, and the RAAF Orions returning from maritime patrols.

Jaba....not too many RFDS King Airs over this side of the country anymore.

waren9

18th Oct 2011, 04:53

So there we have it.

Cloud at that location for less than 10% of the time. Number of flights diverted to anywhere near there, inbound from the north west roughly 0.00001%.

Therefore the chance of this guy being anywhere near an IFR aircraft on any given day is 0.000001%

Furthermore, if you are an IFR pilot that voluntarily flies through that little bit of cloud when the rest of the sky is empty you deserve to get hit.

jas24zzk

18th Oct 2011, 05:02

Similar odds/chances of winning the lotto, but people still buy tickets.....

How often do we hear a story of disdain, finished with, "what are the odds of that" It is a simple matter that when the odds of something are miniscule, and the situation is ambient to it becoming more possible, murhpys law will step in and finish the job.

And as for an IFR pilot avoiding that cloud? Hmm if i was based there in a lightie, i might be tempted to go and make use of that piece of cloud, to practice something i rarely get to do.

waren9

18th Oct 2011, 05:10

Well he was minding his own business a million miles away. Shame a few holier than thou dont do a bit more of it. I'd wager that there is not one poster on here that hasn't bent a rule or two ever ever ever in their lifetime.

Get real.

Jabawocky

18th Oct 2011, 05:30

waren

If you have ever flown anything...you have broken some rules. If you have a prang, its just which rule that you broke. That is not the point.

Deliberate and blatent rule breaking as distinct from your "bending" and then posting it on youtube and using that material on your aviation business website is not setting a good example.

JMAC himself probably bends or breaks one or two every time he gets in his YAK. But I bet he does not do it in such a manner that is likely to be of a svere nature nor posts it up on CASA's website for all to see.

There is a long way between a bit of fun and stupidity....just don't leap across that ditch.

baswell

18th Oct 2011, 05:31

And all he'll get is a please explain letter and/or a stern talking to by the HGFA ops manager at most and all will be forgotten.

It's not like this guy is going to actually lose his license over this or be fined or thrown in jail, is it?

A little perspective, people...

flighthappens

18th Oct 2011, 05:44

If you want to go cloud bashing its pretty easy to do it right... get an IFR clearance for airwork from 20-40NM north of Location XXX from the XXX Radial to the XXX Radial....

That way when anyone is coming in, you get a heads up, they get a heads up, and together you can sort out some deconfliction....

Waren9/Aussie Bob - so by your reasoning when/where is it not appropriate?? If it is okay at Exmouth, is it okay further south? Next thing someone will be doing it at Jurien Bay, then Kalbarri, then Geraldton, then...

Here is a case study of where "bending the rules" gets you...
Industry CRM Developers - Situational Awareness Management Course Outline (http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm)

flighthappens

18th Oct 2011, 05:47

Why should an ifr flight avoid enroute cloud that won't affect them getting visual, especcially when they dont know that there is a knobber in a microlight smashing around the edges?
EOCvictim - Fixed it for you

waren9

18th Oct 2011, 06:46

Risk perception and the concept of context clearly varies amongst folks. Given the context of the behaviour and its location and its frequency, I dont personally consider it as overly risky. I certainly wouldn't dob anyone for it.

Anything coming in from the NW would hardly describe that as

enroute cloud

Ultralights

18th Oct 2011, 06:46

isnt everything about flight about risk management?
Therefore the chance of this guy being anywhere near an IFR aircraft on any given day is 0.000001%
what are the odds of an engine failure? heart attack? stroke? birdstrike?, ****e, walk into the wrong pub at the wrong time....

if you want to eliminate all risk in your life, shoot yourself now..

There is a long way between a bit of fun and stupidity...

just dont forget which one is which, sadly almost all of todays modern society has labeled everything in the stupid category. Flying after a few beers? stupid! enjoying a scenic flight around the clouds a million miles from anywhere? ...

Aussie Bob

18th Oct 2011, 07:36

Waren9/Aussie Bob - so by your reasoning when/where is it not appropriate?

I don't think I have posted anywhere that this behaviour is appropriate.

The behaviour I see as inappropriate is you guys blowing the whole thing out of all proportion, like he has commited a major sin. Certainly I don't think dobbing him hin was appropriate either, a phone call or email direct to him would be more appropriate but I forgot, some folk just like to play policeman.

Guess I will head back to the aero club bar and tell the newbies the seriousness of posting flying vids on Youtube ...

flighthappens

18th Oct 2011, 09:09

Ultralights - yep, all about risk management. But IMHO disregarding rules that have often previously been written in blood is like lining up a couple of the holes in the cheese all by yourself..

Soooooo Waren9 - apparently it is not appropriate but its not a big deal? As a hypothetical question if it is not "overly risky" at Exmouth where/when does it become overly risky?.... And when does the guy with 50Hrs get the experience/knowledge as to when and where to decide to do it after seeing a CFI set the example? Maybe we should have designated "low risk zones" where you can make up the rules yourself... Call it class Z....

Personally I don't give 2 beeps about this guy because I don't think that I am likely to run into him. I think the point that a number of people are trying to make is its a real slippery slope when you start bending/disregarding the rules, especially if you are in a position of leadership...

donpizmeov

18th Oct 2011, 09:53

I am quite jealous of this fella, as he still seems to be able enjoy aviation. Looks like he is having a blast. If you can't do that in the middle of b@mfeck Western Australia there is little chance of anybody having fun anymore.
I really don't mind being away from Australian aviation anymore. Suggestions that you should get an IFR clearance to cloud bash for a few minutes just shows how the Australian "common dog f@ck" attitude has all but disappeared. :ugh:

Move on people, there is nothing to see here. Except of course someone enjoying the best bits of being able to fly an aeroplane.

The Don

nitpicker330

18th Oct 2011, 11:58

Some of you guys need to take a chill pill.

The only thing he "may" have done wrong was not making any RT calls to make sure no IFR A/C came along……..

1000' and 1500m from cloud???? yeah so what???? Who here hasn't run their wingtip through the odd cloud or 3 in their career???? Cloud surfing can be fun if done appropriately and with due diligence in the right place. I mean he wasn't doing this over Melbourne was he!!

Surely a little common sense can sometimes be used………

I guess you guys never speed too???? or tell fibs????

Perfect world then :ok:

morno

18th Oct 2011, 12:16

What get's me is the amount of people on here (presumably professional pilots) who don't think breaking rules "is a big thing".

Worries me greatly, :=.

I enjoy my flying and I have fun, but I do it within the rules and regulations set out by the regulator, whether you like them or not.

morno

Slippery_Pete

18th Oct 2011, 13:50

Nitpicker, are you drunk?

Cloud surfing can be fun if done appropriately and with due diligence in the right place.

Are you saying someone deliberately breaking the law in this case is taking "due diligence"?
Is it taking "due diligence" if you get drunk and then just drive the quiet backstreets home because you are less likely to hit someone? How is this different?

Read j3pipercub's earlier quote:

Son, the rules are written in the blood of those who have gone before you.

Those rules aren't there to make your flying less "fun", they are there to protect human life based on experience - AND THEY ARE NOT OPTIONAL.

donpizmeov

18th Oct 2011, 14:19

"Is no one hearing that aircraft use the northern track on a daily basis? Yes... Middle of nowhere... Next to one of the largest strips in WA, with several RPT flights a day, with a southerly blowing, at the start of the arch for the 18 VOR."

Aircraft fly here on a daily basis? really? I think you may be in the wrong profession Ecovictim. Do you get this scared of the pelicans that fly around there too? They also will ruin ya day if you hit one. These videos were made in day CAVOK. He is not scud running. Even when IFR you need to look out the window to see and avoid, or did you miss this part of your training? To suggest he is doing this in congested airspace is one of the greatest stretches of imagination I have ever heard.

Perhaps its a generation thing. When I went to school taking peanut butter sandwiches to school was not considered dangerous. We were of the belief that if you were allergic to them you would not eat them. We were encouraged to think for ourselves. Now I see there is a law saying that this is also dangerous. And now, the prodigy of the nanny state that is modern Australia, are fearful and outraged that some motorised hang-glider can fly close to a cloud.

Its a hang glider. If he was doing beat ups or cloud bashing whilst on a charter or RPT with Pax on board I too would be asking that his licence be examined. But he is solo, in a hang glider, with a motor.

If he is flying this thing IFR (really) without a radio on crappy IFR days, then I take it all back Eco. But if he is doing that, I don't think he will be a problem for very long.

Its a big sky mate, keep ya eyes out as you never know whats out there. Tcas doesn't see half of whats happening.

If your not enjoying your job ECO you are doing something wrong.

The Don

Sunfish

18th Oct 2011, 18:46

A picture is worth a thousand words......

Aussie Bob

18th Oct 2011, 19:09

A picture is worth a thousand words......

This quote sums up the whole thread. You guys postulating about IFR really need to cRefully look at the cloud in the video again. Note the 5/8 sun on the ground, note the inversion and note that there is really not much cloud around at all ....

Back to the bar ...

Shrike135

18th Oct 2011, 20:03

and note that he avoids that and flies right next to the cloud where he can't be seen.

An idiot, like the one who flew through the trees at a caravan park in Queensland.

Doesn't say much for HGFA if that's where their training comes from.

Jabawocky

18th Oct 2011, 21:30

Aussie Bob

Clearly you are out of your depth arguing that one.

If he was cloud surfing at 1500 feet you could argue he is now out of the range of any legitimate IFR aircraft either inbound to learmonth or Exmouth.

But it is quite clear he was not. When I posted yesterday I looked at the 18VOR and the DME/gps arrival plates. They give plenty of scope to whack these guys below 3000 even, so despite rules and regs, this is a dumb place to do what he is doing.

My recent trip around OZ surprised the heck out of me at the traffic levels over there. The Aluminium to Air ratio is smaller than I thought:uhoh:

morno

18th Oct 2011, 22:54

AussieBob, let me get this straight.

You're saying, that because I'm IFR, I should be avoiding that little bit of cloud, because I might slam into some VFR IDIOT who's breaking the rules by flying in that cloud?

By your reasoning, maybe they should change the rules around. IFR should be required to remain clear of cloud etc., and VFR can go punching through them whenever they want.

You are a hazard to society old mate. :ugh:

morno

Towering Q

18th Oct 2011, 23:38

if I'm joining the arc for 18 practicing a VOR in otherwise VMC I still would not expect to see a hanglider 5milliseconds before I slam into him

I went back to the video for another look...it appears he's operating up between North West Cape and the Exmouth townsite.

That should keep him clear of the 12 mile arc for the 18 VOR.

I would hope that he is monitoring the radio if anywhere near the YPLM CTAF.

nitpicker330

19th Oct 2011, 01:59

Nope not drunk!!

Yawn.........

Why are we still debating this crap????

VH-XXX

19th Oct 2011, 02:07

If you aren't qualified to, your aircraft is not certified for it and you want to smash through cloud, go and buy a $59 airfare and fly from Melbourne to Sydney on an airliner whilst looking out the window. There's a good chance you'll smash through some kind of cloud.

nitpicker330

19th Oct 2011, 06:28

Apart from maybe not advising any IFR a/c of his position nothing he did was remotely dangerous, so get over yourselves and move on.:ugh:
Would I encourage a low time Pilot to do this? Certainly not but this guys was quite experienced.

Who made you the fun Police anyway.:*

Nanny state wanna bees.....:=

Harro

19th Oct 2011, 11:28

The risk might be very low, nonetheless if your IFR and your on the opposite side of the cloud to the Hangglider, look as hard as you want your not going to be able see and avoid.

You quite rightfully enter the little bit of cloud not expecting any un-identified traffic in and around the cloud yet you might be at risk of collision because hes lurking around there enjoying his cloud surfing adventure.

Rules are rules , makes perfect sense to me why this one needs to exists.

MakeItHappenCaptain

19th Oct 2011, 13:51

But isn't one of the benefits of RA (or hang glider fed or whatever defence you want to use) that you DON'T have to follow the rules?:ugh:

Funny, seems to be the impression many of this guy's defenders present here.

And yet RA want's to have all the GA privileges, such as airspace, night, CPL training......

RA will kill you just as fast when you f:mad:ck it up.

Not saying there aren't RA operators who do take their activities seriously, but is it any wonder there seems to be this conception that GA looks down on RA?

You're a lot less likely to get killed by following the rules. That's what they're there for.:ok:

donpizmeov

19th Oct 2011, 17:17

Good one Nitpicker you have upset all the kids here. How dare you hang your widebody in Class A airspace (bet you do it non standard too!) :E

Still wanna try of one these little machines. Will have to drive up there though as it sounds far too bloody dangerous to fly.

The Don

Shrike135

19th Oct 2011, 18:25

MakeItHappenCaptain, this person doesn't belong to RA and doesn't fly under the rules of RA, or have any more connection to RA than an RPT does.

Here's the link to the HGFA (Hang Gliding Federation of Australia) website
HGFA - Hang Gliding Federation of Australia (http://www.hgfa.asn.au/)

You'll notice a little shot of the thingy he's flying towards the right of the page.

If you want to see what a sensible post looks like, you couldn't go further than InTheWeeds #75

josephfeatherweight

19th Oct 2011, 20:16

Just goto Youtube and search for Agnes Water flight or 1770 flight etc.

Ooodles of backpacker posted vids of that clown doing aeros in a 172 etc.....

Silly

These vids appear to have been posted in 2007 - anyone know if these antics caught up with this clown?

VH-XXX

19th Oct 2011, 21:07

Yes Joseph, apparently he was disciplined. Flying without an AOC was merely one of the offences.

nitpicker330

19th Oct 2011, 22:42

I spend a bit of time each year flying for fun in GA and its both IFR and VFR. So the last thing I would want is a near collision with someone VFR in cloud!!!

However if you care to re read my posts you will see that I mention use of the RADIO by this Pilot to advise ATC of his location. IF he had done that then I don't see any problem.

Ok?

machadotaughtme

20th Oct 2011, 06:42

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfqxuqAvQhU&feature=fvwrel

Just move to south africa :E

Aussie Bob

20th Oct 2011, 07:20

You're saying, that because I'm IFR, I should be avoiding that little bit of cloud, because I might slam into some VFR IDIOT who's breaking the rules by flying in that cloud?

Buddy, I aint saying that at all and this guy is not IN those clouds.

Question: The base is 3000 and its 8/8 solid. Someone is cruising along, VFR, fin in the clouds legally. How are you going to avoid them on your approach?

The trike pilot is a professional and I am assuming he is monitorng a radio.

Its a big bad dangerous world out there, you'll all take care now.

Yawn, sigh, zzzzzzzzzzzzz no more to say on this thread zzzzzz

slow n low

20th Oct 2011, 08:03

Machadotuaghtme...

Wow a bunch of low flying... I am so impressed :hmm: I trust no "Aussies" were involved in this.

What a bunch of amateur clowns. Anyone with any low flying/formation experience would be able to spot the dozens of times these idiots left themselves no "outs" with their small d@ck routine.

They should go mustering, spraying or join the military if that's what excites them. At least they will learn how to do it properly. I wonder if the insurance company has seen this footage := I can't think of a reason why a C210 should be flown in such a manner. Tools.

Not implying you endorse this, just referencing your video.

Rant over

nitpicker330

20th Oct 2011, 09:14

What's the Va of a C210 again????

One day they'll find out the hard way.

Now this I don't condone.

VH-XXX

20th Oct 2011, 09:34

Fun to watch, some good flying, some good filming and ok with me as long as they do it in THEIR country not mine!

Ultralights

20th Oct 2011, 11:01

MakeItHappenCaptain

20th Oct 2011, 11:21

Shrike,

Wasn't referring to any one person in particular, more the mindset.:suspect:

likes2fly

20th Oct 2011, 22:56

When i see these video's it reminds me of why we do this, and i think some of you long into a tedious RPT career have forgotten these motives. Why can't we watch some one on a beautiful video bashing a cloud in the middle of nowhere, or some clown beating up the beach in another country without picking the crap out of it. I loved it, and great to see some flying out of the box. Nothing terribly unsafe there. Enjoy flying....Isn't that why we got into it?? Certainly wasn't for the money haha

404 Titan

21st Oct 2011, 02:44

likes2fly
When i see these video's it reminds me of why we do this, and i think some of you long into a tedious RPT career have forgotten these motives.
I’m sorry but that is just plain BS. It is because of the lessons learnt by those that have preceded both you and I that we have the rules we have. All I see in videos like this are a bunch of idiots flying aircraft driven by testosterone and a rush of blood to weenie sized brains rather than a well planned and executed flying display with strategic ways out if all doesn’t go to plan. Namibia isn’t known for its aviation safety and this video confirms it.

Regarding the nupty flying his trike outside the rules governing VFR flight, you may have removed the offending video but unfortunately for you, you haven’t removed the evidence. It is quite clear from the HD video that you were flying at up to 10100 ft in violation of the VFR. These rules apply to all of Australia’s airspace, not just the busy parts and displays at least a flagrant recklessness on your part and raises serious questions as to your suitability to maintain your position as a CFI licensed under the HGFA. If the HGFA doesn’t take action against you then in my opinion CASA should. Just because others have been just as reckless as you doesn’t make it OK. Unfortunately for you the evidence is there and in my opinion an example should be made of you.

slow n low

21st Oct 2011, 03:37

And whos to say they are Not low level endorsed, or military fast jet pilots during their day job, and are quite comfortable doing the same at 500kts?

and after reading some of the crap on this thread, its easy to see who would be good company at the bar, those who have lived, and those who are bitter and twisted wishing they could have lived and known how to have fun. there even video of guys doing the exact same thing as the trike pilot, but in a 747! we can't we all just appreciate the video for what it is someone actually having FUN while flying, now theres a novel thought... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/bah.gif

Well they may be...who's to say. But I ask you why? :confused:The sort of profiles a fast jet pilot is likely to fly would be far more risk managed than a simple "hey let's see how low we can fly". There is a huge difference between the average joe punter in his C210 beating the beejesus out of everything he sees, and the professional aviator that is doing the job for a specific reason. Hours upon hours of map recce, flight planning, mission orders and mission rehearsals go into an average low level sortie (for mil ops). Not too mention the stringent SOP's and rigorous training and checking and retraining that goes on. Then there is the authorisation process which risk manages even further. That's even before an engine is turned.

I have spent a good chunk of my last 1300 hrs at 200 feet or below. It is a busy place and not very much time is given over to "wazzing" The crew is constantly considering options for the "what if's?" What are my escape options? How high can I climb? Which side of the valley do I fly down? Who am I calling in an emergency and on what radio? Whats the heading to fly if we go IMC? The list is endless.

So those are just some of the differences between the "hey let's have a go at this" approach (ie the novice who has had very little time to appreciate the wider consequences of his/her actions) and the "ok we have a job to do at low level or in form in a high risk environment, let's do it properly" approach (ie the pro who takes his/her time in examining as many of the possible outcomes as possible, then applies appropriate risk management plan...then rehearses...then fixes the plan..need I go on?)

The last thing I want to see when I am getting around at 50' while I am trying to get to a target...on time...in formation...whilst managing the tactical scenario, is for some clown crest the hill in front of me at zot feet having some "fun" :*

As for the poor old IFR jockey who has just on the end of his 5th sector for the day joining the arc for his umteenth approach this week, he/she does not expect to see old mate VFR hanging about a bit of fluffy cu as they commence the descent. :=

The same principles apply, they are busy getting on with the JOB of flying.

As for being good company, love to hear about exploits as much as the next bloke over a beer...from those who have a sound appreciation of what could go wrong. I still love my flying, I just have a very grown up approach to it. I have scared the cr@p out of myself and had others do the same.

Someone get me a ladder... I need to climb off this high horse.. :E

Bing Gordon

21st Oct 2011, 05:03

Sorry to intrude on this supremacist IFR commercial pilot love in, but I have a few musings that I've noted below.

You've broken the rules, I've broken the rules, Mr Chopper has broken the rules, Mr Hang Glider has broken the rules. Heck Mr Jetstar, Mr Virgin and even Mr Qantas have broken the rules. At what point do you decide your rule breaking is different to Mr Hang Glider? Indeed to the point where you feel you need to dob him in? Did you dob yourself in when you broke the rules? Will you? Will you dob in a mate? Or just this guy because he's an easy target, even if he is on the other side on the continent. Why stop there? What about all the military jets (not just fast jets) buzzing their mates in the desert? Might want to get going on that too. What about the driver on their phone? Dob them in too, they'll definitely kill you faster that a guy in a hang glider 5000km away. What about alcohol? That'll kill you.

People don't always understand the gravity of decisions they make at that very point in time, indeed it may take a long time for them to realise that they probably shouldn't have done what they did and they'll make an effort to better themselves the next time it happens. Are you the person to make that decision? Why? Because your life is at risk? Look around, I think they call it 'life'. It'll end in a flash, and the least likely place it'll end is while sitting on your arse 'on the clocks' while punching through a bit of fair weather cu at 5000 on the extremities of the WA coast. I want to mitigate risk I hear you say, then take everyone out of the air, including yourself.

In aviation you meet some really great people, and there are always others you just want to get away from really, really bloody quickly. It seems this thread has gathered them all in together, for a party. Don't dance though, bloody slippery these floors.

Follow the rules as you always will, just like the rest of us. And always remember, for every 1 video on youtube of a guy pushing that rule, some rule, any rule, there are a million instances of it going on off air, by people like you.

Pontius

21st Oct 2011, 06:04

Jeez, what self-righteous, micro-managing bores some of you are.

Looking at some of the manoeuvres flown by the 210 guys over the sand, I'd be willing to bet a fair few $$s they are military trained and have a pretty good idea of how to operate at low level. But don't let me stop 'experts' pontificating and having a 'go' because the 'sinners' are flying GA aircraft :hmm:

Hours upon hours of map recce, flight planning, mission orders and mission rehearsals go into an average low level sortie (for mil ops).

Clearly the military has changed then. Once upon a time (not that long ago either), one was expected to receive the targets and within 2 hours be dropping bombs/simulated bombs on them. There wasn't time for map recce or rehearsals, you plotted the targets, joined them up with a low level line on the map and, much more importantly, spent time on the weaponry. Low level flying was/is just a means to an end. The point is to get the bombs on target on time and the bit in between is just SOP. Spend time trying to plan every aspect of every mission and you'd become as inflexible, unimaginative and, frankly, as useless as the US Air Force who can't do anything 'outside the box'.

But that's enough of the military side of things; I look forward to reading how you can't possibly do anything without planning to the Nth degree and ensuring you are regulated to do so. I suggest some of you forget flying and either take up a Government job where you can dissect every aspect of a flight, even though you weren't there but are jolly good at studying UTube or write a book citing implausible scenarios where someone perhaps, maybe didn't fly straight, level and in a nice straight line in Class G :rolleyes:.

DBTW

21st Oct 2011, 06:12

Well said Bing!

Not sure where or when we Australians became overwhelmed by wowsers? I thought we put them to bed back in the last century. (next they'll make sensible people put silly dayglo surcoats on to make them think it will stop them from walking under an aeroplane!:{)

Hopefully, deep down, most Aussie pilots still have enough self belief to realise it is their skill at flying which will save them, rather than a continual battle to stay on an extremely narrow set of rails defined by series of regulatory documents which are clearly not meant to be referred to in flight because they are written for lawyers and not pilots.

On the topic of the imminent collision with a hang glider? One day it will probably happen, but I do not believe it is likely enough to lose sleep over. Not at all sure we should try to regulate every risk out of our lives, and I certainly believe we are regulating too much right now. The chance of the hang glider hit happening to any individual is pretty slim...definitely not worth any of the angst displayed on this thread.

More broadly, this forum seems to be filled with people trying to cite regulations as a means of ruling everyone else out of the sky. Well I haven't heard of a massive increase in G class airspace mid air collisions of late so wonder why we have developed such overstated "risk awareness." When considering the amount of flying that does go on, there never have been many mid airs in Australia. That is despite the fact we all seem to agree there was more flying going on in the past! If anything, because there are fewer aeroplanes and less flying these days, maybe we should consider significant de-regulation?!

Anyway, knowing what pilots of all makes and models do for kicks (naughty little tikes), I am thinking it isn't the regulations saving us, more likely a big empty sky, and occasionally falling back on common sense.