Scilly Isles Route

[Life of Riley]

Are there any truths in the rumours that a new operator may be starting a new fixed wing operation from Newquay to the Isles of Scilly? Maybe BIH are looking at going fixed wing??????

[Aero Mad]

If Skybus have the yields which they currently have on the NQY route (operating other routes via there to keep the numbers up), I don't see why another operator would want to compete. Perhaps a little bit of summer only cherry-picking, but that would rule out BIH as they wouldn't go into fixed-wing just for that.

[Phileas Fogg]

If BIH were going fixed wing then why on earth would they only be building a new heliport and not a new airport?

[Aero Mad]

There's plenty of room for a Twotter at St Erth :)

[Life of Riley]

Are they building a new heliport and if so surely its two years in the planning???
Correct me if Im wrong but they need to sell the land their current heliport is on to have the funds to build this new site and their current buyer, Sainsburys, dont have planning permission for their proposed supermarket yet do they??

[GROUNDHOG]

Yes its true when I get back (if) from Canada I am bringing one of these Harbour Air beaver thingies with me and starting a fixed wing flight from Falmouth to the ISLES OF SCILLY.

[Wycombe]

A bit off-topic but is the heliport at PNZ really being sold to Sainsbury's?There's already a Tesco's and a Morrisons within a couple of hundred metres to the east and west.

[cornishsimon]

As far as im aware the PZE site has already been sold and planning permission is granted for the supermarket on the site

[Life of Riley]

Just found this on Cornwall County Coucil planning:

PA10/08714 | .Redevelopment of site incorporating new retail store, petrol filling station, car parking, park and ride, business units and associated works. | Heliport Eastern Green Penzance Cornwall TR18 3AP (http://planning.cornwall.gov.uk/online-applications/simpleSearchResults.do;jsessionid=D381CF3F17FB63A5B4FF96C6E2 C18165?action=firstPage)

So begs the question with all these delays in planning how long can BIH wait???????

[cornishsimon]

BBC News - Cornwall heliport 'noise pollution' challenged (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-15346774)

[Union Jack]

A bit off-topic but is the heliport at PNZ really being sold to Sainsbury's?There's already a Tesco's and a Morrisons within a couple of hundred metres to the east and west.

Perhaps they're all expecting a big run on Brazil nuts for Christmas!::)

Jack

[pennineuk]

Reported today (20.10.2011):

"Cornwall Council have approved Sainsbury’s planning application at the current heliport site [PZE], subject to conditions on the proportion of food and non-food items they’ll stock."

This is just the first step in the heliport's move from Penzance to St.Erth.

BIH have also submitted a planning application for the St.Erth site which is awaiting an outcome.

[Wycombe]

Why St. Erth?

Yes, it's still on the railway (1 stop east from Penzance), but is further from the islands than the current heliport is?

Unless of course, BIH need the money from the sale of the current site....?

[pennineuk]

BIH are selling the PZE site to raise capital to buy new machines to support their North Sea oil operations (without which they claim they can't support the wider business). I presume St.Erth will be leased hence creates the necessary capital.

BIH tried to relocate to Lands End, but the owners rejected their advances. Frankly Lands End would have been a disaster because of the greater levels of fog.

I think Newquay was considered, but imagine a prime consideration was to minimise the extra travel time. BIH claims the journey will be about 2-3 minutes longer. They've not said anything about fares going up yet, but watch this space.

[PlymouthPixie]

Although 2-3 minutes isn't alot, with BIH every minute in the air costs money.

I do know from an undisclosed source that they aren't making money on the route from PZE anymore, so perhaps a "little" further up the country might make a difference.

I worked out they make £2400 (ish) per flight from Penzance, each trip costs £1000 to run the chopper. Be nice to see some S-92's, or perhaps something smaller like the AW139? :ok:

[Life of Riley]

Taking all of the above into account, the hassle of obtaining planning permission for a new heliport, aside from the time to build such a site, the extra cost of the extended route and the fact they are losing money on the route already, going back to my original question, with an already established and loyal customer base would it not make sense for BIH to go FIXED WING?????

[cornishsimon]

with an already established and loyal customer base would it not make sense for BIH to go FIXED WING?????


from where?
my understanding was that the reason for not moving to St Just was:
A) noise
B) the existing fixed wing operator not wanting them to operate there

cs

[Phileas Fogg]

IOS Skybus own/operate Lands End Grassport, they're hardly likely to allow a competitor to use it.

And, if they went fixed wing, who would operate the Tresco route?

[PlymouthPixie]

Sad to see a group of people are protesting the new heliport, why is there always someone to dampen the fire?! :mad:

[Life of Riley]

Newquay? Couple of new Dornier 228NGs from Newquay faster then Skybus's Twotters could bring customers down from Midlands/Gatwick direct to Scillies.
Just a thought!!

[Phileas Fogg]

ISC is too short for loaded Do228NG's, Do228NG's need around an 800m runway.

Either Islander's or Twotter's or some of these:

Products - Griffon Hoverwork (http://www.griffonhoverwork.com/products)

[cornishsimon]

I am however surprised that Flybe hasnt tried to add a codeshare onto the existing NQY-IOS routes or that they havnt tried to get in on the route maybe by way of Loganair ex NQY allowing onward connections ex LGW, EDI and MAN through NQY

cs

[Baltasound]

It is not just the heliport they are protesting about. The ultimate plan for St.Erth international parkway (railway in joke in these parts) is for a monster pnr as part of the heliport with punters encouraged to abandon their cars and use the chuffer for St.Ives and PNZ.

The link to the Scillies isn't that heavily promoted off the train, I wonder if that will change?

[pennineuk]

A codeshare would be nice; it's the lack of a through booking that has always put me off from flying into NQY and then onto St Marys. However Skybus charge very high fares which are essentially flexible so probably makes little difference on the outbound journey- different matter on the return.

As for fixed wing, as others have said, St Marys airfield is too small for most operators. When BA ran Brymon they did explore extending the runway at St Marys but this was rejected (rightly so in my opinion) as being too invasive.

More importantly, fixed wing doesn't deal with the very wealthy clientele who use Tresco. The island is now virtually all timeshares, so a predictable number of people travelling on a regular basis. There are regularly 4 and even 5 flights a day for a large part of the year, although this drops to 2 a day in winter. My experience is that these flights are nearly always full and make a significant contribution to BIH overheads which, if lost, would make this apparently loss-making route something that would be ripe for complete closure.

[Phileas Fogg]

The problem, moreso, with fixed wing is when the Scillies gets fog.

Fog clears by the sun breaking through, warming the land, and the heat from the land clearing the fog. The trouble with the Scillies is that there's so little land that, by perhaps lunchtime, they might have just achieved perhaps 1500M visibility but the, fixed wing, approaches are still clagged up thus missed approaches, diversions, are moreso than at regular airfields.

[welkyboy]

I doubt because of their small land area that the Scillies would ever get radiation fog, which is cleared by sun radiation or stronger wind, the fog that the Scillies suffer is basically low cloud in warm sector conditions that cling to the higher ground, the same problem that Lands End airport suffers. No amount of sun or stronger winds will disperse this, only a drier airmass.
A lot of Islands suffer the same problem, all the Channel Islands for instance...

[Phileas Fogg]

Welkyboy,

Q: Have you ever worked in the Ops Department of a DHC6 operator operating ISC routes such as BRS, EXT, PLH & NQY?

A: I have and I know the operational problems associated with ISC operations!

[Seven Fifty Seven]

Yep, been stuck on ISC for 3 days waiting for the fog to clear..... Not low cloud on high ground.... Fog, stuff that sticks thick to the sea and envelopes the whole Island. Quick to form, quick to clear, it's just the bit in between that can take a while.... Sometimes in a 30 knot wind too! Good place to be stuck though! :-) I was LND based.

[Life of Riley]

Will BIH be able to build a new heliport at St Erth? There is lots of local opposition and you name the last airport/heliport to be built in the UK, it must have been back in the sixties??
Brings me back to my original point, despite all of the valid arguments above, will BIH not have to go fixed wing from Newquay if they want to continue operating this route if they dont get St Erth?

Local opposition - BBC News - Cornwall heliport 'noise pollution' challenged (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-15346774)

[Phileas Fogg]

Sheffield City Airport, London City Airport, to name but two weren't built back in the sixties!

[GROUNDHOG]

It would appear that St Erth is a non starter and BIH have officially dropped the plan, shame. Let's hope they find an alternative soon.

[cornishsimon]

BBC news is suggesting a temp move to NQY with the idea to buy some time to look at a new site.

I cant see NQY being viable for long as very poor rail conenctions into NQY, they will either need to move close to a mainline railway station or sort out some sort of codeshare with BE to feed the service ex NQY

cs

[jabird]

DSA is more recycled than new, but very much a 21st century arrival as a commercial entity.

[pennineuk]

I imagine that BIH will only ever lease a site, not buy it, otherwise it defeats the move out of PZE and releasing the capital value of the site to buy new machines for the North Sea and other operations.

[MADTASS]

Newquay from around April onwards on a Temporary Basis until a New Site is found, that"s what we told last Shift.

[Wycombe]

NQY will be useful if connecting to the islands by air, and it's not too far from the A30 for people driving into Cornwall, but by train will be hopeless (very slow and sporadic service on the branch from Par) compared to the current location at the end of the Great Western.

[Non Emmett]

Current return fare for the approx forty miles each way trip to Scilly is £179. How much will they need to charge if they operate from Newquay and in peak summer will there be sufficient time to operate the numerous trips the S-61s make at that time fo the year ?

[Life of Riley]

Non Emmett hit the nail on the head. What will BIH have to charge from Newquay, the current flight time from Penzance is 20 mins, NQY-ISC in an S61 must be 45 mins, over double the time, would this mean double the ticket price?
Takes me back to my origonal question, if rotary is too expensive then why not try fixed wing from NQY-ISC with maybe a shuttle from St Marys to Tresco with the rotary??????

[Aero Mad]

I don't think Brintel would be interested in going into fixed wing - especially not in competition with Skybus. They will have to find a new site which is closer to Land's End but near the railway.

[bazilbutler]

Isles of Scilly fear costly transport links will hurt economy and tourism | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/04/isles-scilly-costly-transport-links?)

Brymon MK2 can ferry the locals to and fro in a dash 7 if they extend 14/32 a little bit! :E

[Phileas Fogg]

Who manufactures DHC7 aircraft in this day and age, where is the additional ISC fire cover to come from and, were a runway extension feasible, who's going to finance it ... ISC can make comparisons to Scotland blah blah blah but in Scotland they're still operating Twotters on a sand beach but only when the tide is out.

The Scillonian (vomit comet) ferry is past it's sell by date, the Twotters are getting towards their sell by dates, PZE heliport is closing and the choppers will struggle to compete vs fixed wing on a NQY/ISC/NQY route, they might only survive on a Tresco route where no fixed wing can compete ..... So why not do away with this mixed bag of geriatric equipment and invest in some modern aircraft, namely hovercraft, equipment?

[GROUNDHOG]

Sadly Phileas whilst a hovercraft is a sound idea, having sailed these waters many many times the service would be very unreliable as the sea around IoS is notoriously rough. It stops the Scillonian in the Winter so a hovercraft has little to no chance.

[virginblue]

Who manufactures DHC7 aircraft in this day and age

You may want to have a word with VIKING, maybe you get them interested to not only re-start DHC6 production, but also DHC7 production.

Viking Acquires Type Certificates for de Havilland Canada Heritage Aircraft from Bombardier (http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/viking-acquires-type-certificates-de-havilland-canada-heritage-aircraft-from-bombardier-581493.htm)

[Heathrow Harry]

As the Penzance natives are still arguing about a new ferry terminal and a replacement for the Scillonian the whole place may be cut off ...........

[Bearface]

Hovercraft???? I choked on my tea when I read that.

This has got to be a joke, right?

[davidjohnson6]

The Scottish independence lobby has managed to make enough noise that Westminster feels obliged to give increased resource to Soctland. Where's the lobby group for an independent Cornwall when you need them ?

[Phileas Fogg]

bearface,

The waters around the Scillies are so shallow the Scillonian ius flat bottomed which causes passengers to vomit ... regularly ... and having, this morning, taken a wooden outrigger between Dapa and Surigao with the waves coming over the top of us ... I have every sympathy. :)

For fear of commercially advertising one can check out the specs, including craft sizes and acceptable wave heights, by visiting such a site as Products - Griffon Hoverwork (http://www.griffonhoverwork.com/products)

As for DHC7's, these remain out of production for some 25 years past, there are none on the British register and were a solitary DHC7 to appear on the British register then it might work an ISC route for perhaps 2 days per week during each summer and sit on it's bum each winter whilst other operators struggle to make a once a day Twotter or Chopper pay for itself ... and as for any DHC7 spares back-up ... well go figure. :)

[Ernest Lanc's]

A bit off-topic but is the heliport at PNZ really being sold to Sainsbury's?There's already a Tesco's and a Morrisons within a couple of hundred metres to the east and west.

That makes no difference..Where I live in the NW of England...We have a Morrisons, and Aldi and Tesco...Asda bought out a Netto and are bulding a huge supermarket a few hundred yards from Morrisons - The planners are stupid, I just pay their wages - What the hell do I know.

[jabird]

The planners are stupid

Don't blame the planners, they are merely trying to balance the demands of those who want to build (supermarkets, airports and so on) against those who don't (the usual nimby types, greenies and so on).

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Don't blame the planners, they are merely trying to balance the demands of those who want to build (supermarkets, airports and so on) against those who don't (the usual nimby types, greenies and so on). "

It's not always the case that planning departments are in the pockets of developers. Equally it's not always the case that planning departments are influenced by the so-called "tree huggers".

There are often occasions where councillors reject large planning applications, but the applicants appeal to the planning inspectorate in Bristol (central government).

Developers often employ the kind of expensive lawyers that district councils cannot match because they are constrained by limited resources (ratepayers money).

Consequently, planning departments rejections are overturned and the result is large supermarkets within 100 yards of eachother, clone towns, and dying high streets and town centres.

[GROUNDHOG]

Well you wont be going on the Scillonian today, this afternoons sailing is cancelled. F5 at the moment but possible gusts F7 which is not that exceptional.

[Bearface]

Phileas Fogg – Having been on the Scillonian, I am well aware of its deficiencies!

Returning to your earlier post:

Quote:

“The Scillonian (vomit comet) ferry is past it's sell by date, the Twotters are getting towards their sell by dates, PZE heliport is closing and the choppers will struggle to compete vs fixed wing on a NQY/ISC/NQY route, they might only survive on a Tresco route where no fixed wing can compete ..... So why not do away with this mixed bag of geriatric equipment and invest in some modern aircraft, namely hovercraft, equipment?”

Am I reading it correctly that you think a solution is to run passenger hovercraft from Penzance to the Scillies?

Forgive me, but I find this notion genuinely amusing. The old birds on the Dover – Calais route were as susceptible as anything to the weather before they were deemed commercially unviable. How would one operate said hovercraft in a Force 9 gale and a 20 foot swell with 4 meter waves?

This is the Atlantic we are talking about here, not the Serpentine.

[Phileas Fogg]

Bearface,

Yet but the hovercrafts on the cross channel service stayed in service until they were airframe time expired, as I'd be crossing on SeaFrance I'd watch them whizzing past on many an occasion!

So sea crossings to/from Scillies are far from ideal ... the future is fixed wing air travel where, during inclement (fog) conditions, the island airport may remain below operating minima for days at a time, the sun will be merrily shining above but because there is so little land to the islands there is indeed insufficient land for the sun to warm needed to lift the fog.

Someone asked the question a while back, is there an aircraft capable of shifting 20+ punters in/out of St. Mary's and, should the chopper service withdraw, what about the future of air services to Tresco ... Well tell me that hovercraft couldn't fulfill both of these.

[GROUNDHOG]

Phileas

You are going to have to be careful on that gorgeous tropical island your on, I think you should put a hat on when sitting in the sun.

As a qualified yachtmaster who has sailed these waters and the channel I promise you that there is no comparison, a hovercraft is a not going to work down here. I have been talking to a Canadian hovercraft manufacturer about the feasibility of using one in coastal waters around the Fal Estuary and even that is a challenge. Get a good easterly blowing and even the inshore ferries stop operating.

Enjoy your day and have another cold beer whilst I sit in the rain

[Bearface]

Phileas

I admire your creative sourcing of options, I really do.

Sea crossings are not ideal, neither is fixed wing flight when subject to such variable weather conditions. I don't think there is a simple solution but the fact remains that a hovercraft is a machine that requires fairly good sea conditions for it to be effective and commercially viable. This is the Atlantic we are talking about.

I'd love to jump on a Mark III SR.N4 next time I'm visiting the folks down in Cornwall. If it does happen, I'm not sure if I'll be plain shocked or rolling around on the floor laughing so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

However, the mere notion of hovercrafts operating such a route has added an element of hilarity to my dreary world, so on a personal level, thank you for that!

[Phileas Fogg]

Greetings GROUNDHOG ... and Bearface also,

This conversation came up at the suggestion of a runway extention and DHC7 operations in/out of ISC ...

Let's agree that it's best that we all go off and get drunk and pretend we never heard such a ridiculous suggestion. :)

[nonemmet]

This problem will only be solved with money, and quite a lot of it, spent on a (longer) runway at St Mary's with at least a Cat III equivalent landing system.

[PlymouthPixie]

Extending the main runway and asphalt'ing the shorter runway (currently half grass, half concrete) are currently being looked into by the Isles Of Scilly Council using European Funding....

[Phileas Fogg]

Yes,

But not even Brymon considered scheduled DHC7's on ISC routes, to round up groups of Y50's to head, point to point, to/from the guest houses of the Scillies would be nigh on impossible and, if at all possible, only on Saturdays (weather permitting) taking in to consideration that ISC is closed on Sundays.

Brymon only ever looked at the possibility of DHC7's in/out of ISC after a Saturday of fog when ISC would temporarily open on the Sunday to get as many punters in in as short a time as possible.

[Flightrider]

I seem to recall that Brymon did a proving flight with the Dash 7 into ISC when they were phasing out the Twin Otters (ha - G-BIHO still going with Skybus!) and the proving flight was sufficiently "interesting" to see the whole project abandoned. I can't think that, with all of the changes to EU-Ops and performance criteria which have taken place between then and now, the situation will have improved in any way.

And in any event, planning the future for the next 20-30 years around an aircraft type which is already obsolete is not a particularly good idea. Best bet is to get the runway to a slightly improved standard to be able to support operations such as a Dornier 228 and accept that any larger aircraft will mandate increases in fire cover, ATC, introduction of EC300-compliant security screening for pax and all sorts of other expensive infrastructure that the passenger throughput simply isn't high enough to generate revenue to pay for.

[PlymouthPixie]

The British Antartic Survey Dash 7 landed on St.Marys 4 years ago for a crew change.

The Brymon Dash 7 never landed at St.Marys.

[Phileas Fogg]

What do you mean "the Brymon Dash 7"?

Brymon operated THREE Dash 7's!!!

[Dooby]

Hi, found this thread whilst trying to do some research into possible alternatives to the Twin Otters operating out of St Mary's.
The local authority have just published a report on works at the airfield (primarily to resurface the main runway) but they investigated extending the runway to 1000m (not going to happen).
I remember being told that a Dash 7 would in theory be able to operate if the extensions at either end of the runway were widened to full width - bringing the runway length to 690m.
Having done some more reading (and speaking to someone that had Dash 7s advertised for ACMI lease) it seems its just not an option (not least because there just aren't any in the EU - but also because they would likely need to apply EASA-OPS meaning they would need 1000m anyway)

If anyone is interested, the report is here. (note I am NOTHING to do with either the authority, the airport or the airlines, just a resident who relies on the transport link to commute.

http://committees.scilly.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=629&T=10

As an aside, someone did bring a Dash 7 in for an Air Show when I was a kid, they landed it and it stayed most of the day for people to look at and left in the afternoon. I believe it was a Brymon one (they were still operating the Twin Otters on the route at the time).

[Dooby]

Ah, yes. Is was before the days of the tarmac runway.

Would be interested if anyone has any info on the minimum runway for a Dash 7 (assuming you could source one) - if you had, say, 700m, would it be doable for passengers? would you need to reduce the payload? or is it just impossible with current regs?

[Heathrow Harry]

Get the Missionary Air Fellowship from PNG on the route - those guys can land anywhere

[mad_jock]

They also have quite a few crashes as well Harry.

A beech 1900D could more than likely get a decent load out. But they are extremely expensive compared to the twotter.

Let410 although slow (but a bit faster than the twotter) could also be an option.

[Heathrow Harry]

yes but the Scilly islands aren't anywhere as basic as upcountry PNG - no 10,000ft mountains IIRC

[Phileas Fogg]

So what if a 25+ year old DHC7 were able to shift a week's worth of ISC punters inside an hour or few ..... what would one(s) then utilse the (215kt cruising speed) flying combine harvester for when compared to it's (Q400) modern day 'child' that enjoys a cruising speed of some 360kt?

[Dooby]

To be honest, it's more about whether there are options for larger/more efficient/faster/longer range aircraft that could use an (extended) runway that is more feasible than the 1000m in the report. The reason for asking about the Dash 7 is it's one I remember being mentioned in the past (another someone has mentioned is the Dornier-228).

As far as the age and availability of the aircraft, fair point, but the otters and S61 on the route currently aren't exactly spanking new either as far as I understand it (and at least you can get parts for the DHC aircraft now Viking have the type certificates, I am not sure you can say the same of the S61)

Utilisation? yeah would be a problem, but I don't think you would be shifting everyone in a couple of flights a week, certainly in the summer - and if the S61 stops, there are a significant number of passengers that I am not sure could be shifted with the otters and islanders even running flat out all day.

Of course, that is only looking at existing numbers, I doubt there are many that opt for the Bristol - IOS route currently as it costs 'from' £115 each way vs 'from' £60 if you fly from lands end (although £180 and £80 respectively seem more 'usual') - if there were an aircraft that could do it cheaper, maybe there would be more interest.

[Phileas Fogg]

Dooby,

The DHC6 'Twotter' is what it is, it can fly from wheels, floats, ski's etc. and atleast it is back in production so one may acquire new one(s).

The DHC7, with little more than 100 manufactured, was hardly a roaring success however it had it's day when turboprops such as F27's, HS748's, HP7's, VC8's had their cruising speeds at circa 200-240kts with the DHC7's own cruising speed of circa 215kts.

But technology has moved on with modern day turboprops enjoying cruising speeds of circa 350kts so a DHC7 would be pretty much unfavourable with operators and passengers alike unless in and out of short strip airfield(s) where nothing faster could operate.

But unless they are to build hotel complexes etc. on the Scillies then how could a 50 seater 'museum piece' be utilised dusk till dawn for six or seven days per week?

It was great technology to develop a 50 seater that could land on a sixpence, it would keep the spotters entralled for hours, but for this day and age it's a slow and somewhat uncomfortable to ride in museum piece.

You mention the Do228, like the DHC6 the Do228 is also back in production, similar size to the Twotter but faster cruising speed with wheels that go up and down ... but it needs circa 800m of runway!

[PlymouthPixie]

It goes without question that the airport on St Marys is need of modernisation but even my friends in high places are unsure why plans have been considered for a runway extension. A seaward extension will never become a reality, the duchy won't allow that eye saw on a site of natural beuty, never mind the residents. Although European funding looks to be available and if so the extension will go ahead.

As your aware the airfield is shut on a Sunday giving an oppurtunity to explore the site. The runway is and always has been in need of resurfacing to bring it upto speed with some of the latest friction and grip techniques and at a small price that can be acheieved, the same with the cross runway, asphalting the grass end has always been on the cards, according to my sources, improvements to the runway at a cost of £400,000 would significantly increase aircraft performance.

My idea with the extension would be to allow the interest of a certain Let410 operator in the UK to expand their network but given the exclusiveness of the airport I cant see the council or locals ever allowing another operator in the, same with having based aircraft as the report mentions about Twin Otters and new hangerage. Looking out from the Hugh Town pier, I'm sure a new RFS wouldn't look to pleasing!

[Dooby]

Phileas,
"unless in and out of short strip airfield(s) where nothing faster could operate" So, an airfield like St Marys then?

Yes the speed may be only around 200kts, but what is the Twin Otter? around 100-150? OK, only marginally faster, but faster all the same.

I realise it may be a stretch to fill the aircraft to capacity dawn till dusk 6 days a week, but the passenger numbers aren't that small at present, and if the S61 route was to go there is certainly scope.


PlymouthPixie,
My first impressions of the extension in the report were that it looked like the report was written by someone wanting to make the idea of an extension seem utterly ridiculous and put in the most extreme example to make it look laughable. The aircraft used in the example still couldn't land (or rather take off) on the 1000m runway. I would have hoped to have seen examples of what *could* land and take off at 700m, 800m 900m as examples, and not be restricted to aircraft currently flown by operators in the region, why not do something that would allow Skybus (or even BIH) to operate larger or more efficient aircraft?
The point about it being a bit 'closed shop' is very true, there is no space for a 'rentable' check-in desk etc for a third operator, so the best we could hope for would be some sort of sharing of resources between an operator wanting to come in from further afield on one of the existing ones (as used to happen with Brymon and the helicopter service iirc)

The runway is most definitely in need of a resurface, that much is very clear, you don't need to walk the runway to realise that, you can feel it. I am not sure if the grass runway will get replaced with asphalt or whether they will just renew the 'hardening' grid they have currently.

One of the other interesting parts for me is the potential instrumentation, fairly sure full-on ILS is out of the question, but hopefully they will be able to introduce some form of GPS landing (I am not sure what they are looking at, but I have seen reports of systems used in similar situations where you have a 'known location' GPS station on the airfield which relays corrections via VHF (basically DGPS) and that can be used for a form of ILS approach with the advantage it covers about 30miles with increased accuracy, hopefully something would allow flying in more borderline conditions and reduce the number of days when there is no flying at all (which has happened pretty frequently over the last month or so)

It is interesting you mention the Let410, according to the report that can already use the main runway - I am not sure the council would be the problem, but rather pressure from the other operators not to 'cannibalise' their trade.

I haven't looked in detail at the hanger, but my understanding is it would replace the existing fire shed over the far side of the airfield which is kind of tucked away, and also starts to disappear below the 'hump' in the airfield when viewed from the quay.

[Aero Mad]

FARNBOROUGH: Viking evaluates market for DHC-5 Buffalo relaunch (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/farnborough-viking-evaluates-market-for-dhc-5-buffalo-relaunch-374237/)

[Dooby]

That's interesting... I was wondering earlier about the other aircraft Viking have type certificates for, and the, given they already restarted making the Twin Otter, whether they would start up production of some of the other aircraft as the original airframes became too old to keep using, but there isn't any 'modern' equivalent.

[ATP_Al]

You could operate a dhc8 -100 or -200 comfortably from 1000m.

[Dooby]

but the runway isn't 1000m ( and I very much doubt it ever will be), its currently 600m - but an extension to around 700m may be more likely

[Phileas Fogg]

dooy,

The Twotter cruises at 150kt which is bl00dy slow due much due to it having a fixed undercarriage, the Twotter is also only favourable for short strip, water, ice/snow operations where other types may not operate.

The DHC7 was Canadian built primarily for the Canadian market, many Canadian airfields/airports are/were short (ish) gravel (or similar) strips, DHC products were in their element in Canada, operators could operate far and wide short strip operations utilising the aircraft dusk till dawn daily.

DHC products only became present in SW England due to PLH, ISC and LEQ and their short and/or grass runways and one isn't going to utilise a 50 seater STOL airliner dusk till dawn 6 or 7 days a week on an ISC route network!

Another problem on ISC is the lack of fuelling facilities, apparently Skybus have their own limited supply on the island, I guess for unforeseen circumstances, but without a common fuel supply there aircraft need to tanker in the fuel for their outward legs thus limiting their range and limiting any ISC route network.

[Aero Mad]

For heaven's sake people, in Alderney we would die for a Twotter. You're lucky you aren't confined to BN2s. You think 150kts is slow! Try 120kts with the engines at highest economic cruise setting and so much noise you can't hear yourself think. Yes, we love our Trislanders but wouldn't DHC6s be nice... yes, they would. My advice is stick with the Twotter and don't faff about with any serious runway extensions; any more than 700m of tarmac and you start eating up the island. If it ain't broke... ;)

[Dooby]

Phileas,
The fuel issue is one that is already called out in the report. As for the 'you wouldn't fill a DHC-7, again, maybe not all the time, but the idea would be to make the upcountry routes more practical, bringing in passengers that aren't currently accounted for - and again, the potential loss of the helicopter service would result in a significant increase in the number of passengers needing to be carried by an already busy fixed wing service.
It wasn't that long ago people insisted that there wasn't capacity for a couple of islanders flying in and out of lands end either.

Aero,

The runway is currently only 600m, whether extending it to 700m would help is the point. Yes, the Otters are great, however they do tend to be used primarily for Newquay and the upcountry flights, with the islanders being the main ones on the Lands End route.
Many would argue the system IS broken, due to the relatively high cost of the short flights, with the flights to Bristol etc being even worse. The main reason for looking at larger aircraft or more efficient ones would be in the hope that could bring prices down - if they couldn't then so be it, but it's at least worth looking.
Extending the runway (or other improvements) to allow larger/more economical aircraft to operate is one thing the authority could do to help bring prices down.

[Phileas Fogg]

Dooby,

"Upcountry routes"?

First there is the fuel issue, in Brymon days, once they'd started the BRS route, they'd tech (fuel) stop en-route in NQY, additional operating costs, landing/handling fees etc, I guess Skybus similarly tech stop in LEQ.

To fill 50 seats, except on a minority basis, it would need to multi and multi sector ... perhaps BHX/BRS/EXT/NQY/ISC and return ..... would this be an improvement upon a Twotter operating, moreso, direct services?

This is the quaint and beautiful Scillies we are talking about, it's not a 50 seater destination, there aren't 50 ISC punters getting off each train that arrives in Penzance nor Newquay nor Exeter etc. etc. etc.

[PlymouthPixie]

Skybus don't tech stop on long distance routes like Southampton or Bristol.

They do have fuel bowsers on ISC - bought in from Gry Maretha several times a week.

Fuel is always available for Skybus aircraft - but nothing else.

[Non Emmett]

I appreciate a Dash 7 on the Scillies route would not get much utilisation given the small size of the tourist market on the islands and my understanding is that numbers have fallen over the last five years. I tend to regard Scilly as eyewateringly expensive these days. But if the economics worked out would there not be scope for day trippers. In earlier days significant numbers used to go to St.Mary's from Penzance on the Scillonian before it got so expensive.

Day trip from say Newquay to St. Mary's anyone ? I wonder what fares would need to be charged to get sufficient bums on seats ?

[LN-KGL]

It wonders me why you only concentrate on an oldtimer like the DHC-7 when a newer 39 seat DHC-8-103 can be used provided the 14/32 runway is lengthened to 800 metres. To extend the runway with 200 metres will cost a bit money with a gully towards the Old Town Lane and the rocks/coastline in the other direction, but it's feasible.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23931688/Airports/Landing_at_ISC.jpg

[Dooby]

The only reason for talking about the Dash-7, is it's one I have heard mentioned in the past as *almost* being able to operate from the existing runway. If there are better (in production) alternatives then great.
I was always under the impression the Dash-8s needed around 1000m. I agree 800m is more likely than 1000m as an extension, however it would still be tight I think.

Nice pic by the way :)

[LN-KGL]

Widerøe Flyveselskap have used the DCH-8-103 for scheduled PSO flights to the 25 Norwegian STOLports for almost 20 years now. In other words this no news at all. All these STOLports had from the outset TORA/ASDA/TODA/LDA 799 metres when they were built between 1965 and 1990, but two of them have been lengthened afterward to also accommodate the larger 50 seat DHC-8-311 (ENBN and ENFL - both locations are vital oil bases with heli shuttle to offshore platforms).

I'm flying more and less on regular basis to one of these STOLports - Namsos - to do some work at one of our production sites. Namsos (OSY/ENNM) have only a LDA (Landing Distance Available) of 797 metres, and it has never been a problem to land except once due to visibility being close to zero. Below is a photo of one of these mini Dash-8s about to land at Namsos.

http://www.scanavphoto.no/_img/full_size/airliner/KGL_0049.jpg

Dooby, in case you want to know about the previous photo I showed - it was taken on a visit to St. Marys on 2 April 2012. We flew in from St. Just Land's End on one of the first flights that day, stayed for a bit over one hour and flew back again to LEQ. Later that day we also manged to get a return flight with British International from Penzance to Tresco.

More about Widerøe and the STOLport network:
Flights to Norway and the rest of the world - fly with Widerøe (http://www.wideroe.no/en)
Widerøe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wider%C3%B8e)

[Dooby]

Breaking News: Isles of Scilly Helicopter Routes To Close | Scilly Today (http://www.scillytoday.com/2012/08/01/breaking-news-isles-of-scilly-helicopter-routes-to-close/)

sad day

[PlymouthPixie]

Will have a huge knockon effect the islands and the rest of the world with contracts in the Falklands and with the Navy, wondered if it might happen but never wanted it o.

[cornishsimon]

Very sad day, I hope that BIH keep the mx facility at NQY

IOS will obviously still be served ex NQY by 5Y, TSO however will be left with no air links.

I also still think that long term a BE codeshare on 5Y services will be a good thing.


cs

[GROUNDHOG]

I don't think its over till the fat lady sings!

[Phileas Fogg]

Sounds like an opposite to the PLH situ, shut down the airline then close the airport ... PZE have got it arse about face!

Tresco has a 1,188ft runway, how much runway does a loaded BN2 need and any chance of a runway extension in to the pond?

[virginblue]

If I am not mistaken, BIH operates up to 9 flights a day to the islands, so that's a daily capacity of almost 250 seats. Don't know what the load factors are, but to make up for that shortfall in capacity, Skybus would need to operate something like two additional Twin Otters from NQY or dozens of Islander flights from St. Just. Or is the general belief that passengers will opt for the vomit comet, i.e. take the ship?

To me, it sounds a bit more like pressuring someone as the islands obviously cannot operate without a replacement for the transport capacity BIH has provided for decades.

[Phileas Fogg]

Twotters from NQY yet Islanders from St. Just ... How about Twotters from St. Just?

[PlymouthPixie]

The current Twin Otter fleet is maxed out as it is.

1 Islander operates from Lands End - St Marys
1 Islander in for check at Lands End.

The other Islander alternates with the Lands End - St Marys Islander throughtout the day.

1 Twin Otter on the Newquay - St Marys.

The other two operate the BRS, SOU & EXT throughout the day.

The S-61 is almost always full - about 26 seats - BIH make £2000 for every flight, £1000 of that goes on fuel and the chopper, the rest goes on staff wages and the upkeep of the heliport, hence the loss making - so even though the flights are full, they still make a loss becuase of the increased price of fuel.

[LN-KGL]

There is normally one Twin Otter based at St. Just (at least it was so as I made my flights in April), but as said above normally used to the more distant airports.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23931688/Easter_2012/Photo09.jpg

Here are two of them at St. Marys

The British International S-61Ns are getting old, and I suspect they aren't the most cost effective among the helicopters these days. It's sad to see them go, but this day had to come. Maybe why I did the trip in April just to have done it? I missed out Plymouth with a few days because of the radar coverage, but this time I made it.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23931688/Easter_2012/Photo19.jpg

Cabin view on the return flight from Tresco

[Heathrow Harry]

Penzance to Isles of Scilly helicopter flights ending

The service has been run since 1964 but will end on 1 November.


A helicopter service from Cornwall to the Isles of Scilly is to end, its operators have announced. British International Helicopters (BIH) is to end its service from Penzance, which has run since 1964, in November.



The company blamed the decision on uncertainty created by legal challenges to its sale of land to supermarket giant Sainsbury's.


St Ives' Liberal Democrat MP Andrew George has called the announcement "appalling" and a "disaster". BIH has to move from its 15-acre site at the end of October because of the Sainsbury's deal. It planned to use the proceeds from the sale to buy new aircraft and bid for new business. But the company, which has not operated services this week, said the decision to close the route was "finally triggered by legal action taken by Tesco and two private individuals".
Analysis

Neil Gallacher BBC South West Business Correspondent


No surprise that this has rattled an island community that already feels itself to be stuck out on a limb. The helicopters take about a third of the passengers that go to and fro each year. Aeroplanes owned by the Steamship Group also operate, but BIH's helicopters carry more passengers.


And the islands' ferry route doesn't operate in the winter.


But there's some reassurance: the Steamship Group says it has plenty of spare capacity for now, especially in the winter when its aeroplanes are less busy.
And it's extending the life of the current Scillonian ferry "until at least 2018".


Two crunch questions remain for now.
- What'll happen to prices under a Steamship air and sea monopoly?
- And, in a few years, what replaces the Scillonian and its current ancient port facility in Penzance?



It's a lot of uncertainty for a small community to shoulder. It said potential delays caused by the challenges "created too many uncertainties for the passenger service to continue".



BIH said the closure would affect employees and that a formal redundancy consultation process had begun with staff.


The independent Cornwall councillor for Porthleven and Helston South, Andrew Wallis, said BIH's decision was a "kick in the teeth" for the communities of the islands and west Cornwall.


He said: "To me, this is two supermarkets squabbling over a piece of land and the communities of Penzance and the Isles of Scilly are the ones to miss out."
Mr George said he had called for an emergency meeting over the link.


Conservative-Independent led Cornwall Council said it was "extremely disappointed" by the decision to end the service, which has offered as many as 40 flights a day and is thought to be used by up to 130,000 people a year.
It said: "We are keen to continue to talk to BIH about the future of the helicopter service and to see what support can be provided."


The Isles of Scilly Council said it was "deeply saddened" at the move.
The unitary authority said it was pleased services would operate until the end of October because it "ensures there will be no disruption to the holiday season".



It added that its immediate priority was to "ensure the stability of our transport infrastructure" and that "steps are already under way" to do so.


The Scillonian ferry service to the islands from Penzance remains, as do Skybus aeroplane services from Bristol, Exeter, Land's End, Newquay and Southampton.


Both are operated by the Isles of Scilly Steamship Group.
Group chairman Andrew May said the company would work with the Scillonian community in an attempt to compensate for BIH's pulling out.
Sainsbury's said it was still committed to bringing a store to Penzance.
BIH said anyone with a flight booked after 1 November would be given a full refund.

[devonish]

i think BIH were looking for an excuse to get out of the loss making scilly route, with the FOST dauphins going to Hms raleigh, Newquays facility will go next.
BIH are streamlining to probably focus on offshore/ mil contracts. this has been smoke and mirrors for the last couple of years from BIH as they never really intended to go to Newquay either

[cornishsimon]

When was it decided to move the Fost aircraft from
NQY ?

[pennineuk]

I agree the proposed juidicial review was just the excuse BIH were looking for to drop the service. Although they spoke about a NQY-IOS service, flights were only loaded through to January 2013, not even to the end of W12 season. I always had my suspicions they planned to drop the service. A great shame.

[virginblue]

What surprises me is that the location of the current heliport at Penzance appears to be such a lucrative piece of real estate that it would have been able to finance the relocation of the whole operation to St. Erth, including building a new heliport (or was this supposed to be paid from public funds?). I mean the area is next to the main road and railway track and not exactly in an uptown living area, if I am not mistaken.

[Dooby]

@virginblue, this is the kind of thing that led many people to believe that BIH had no intention of continuing the service, and were just looking for an excuse/way to blame it on someone else. The speed at which they pulled out of the St Erth plan added to that.

I can see a way it would have worked financially, in that I believe they had a debt that was about to mature, the revenue from the sale would have allowed them to pay off that debt and avoid crippling interest payment, possibly making the route profitable again.

One thing to note is that one of the big concerns people are voicing is whether Skybus has the capacity to pick up all the passengers that were being carried by BIH (70,000 is the number floating around, although I suspect that is passenger segments not return trips).

[virginblue]

Another challenge - the lower minima of the fixed-wing VFR-operation: The S61 often still operated when Skybus operations already had to be suspended. So much bigger impact of the weather in the future if there is only Skybus or the ferry.

[Phileas Fogg]

Regarding weather minima ... in the old days ISC had a minimum RVR (RUNWAY Visual Range) of 1,500m yet with a runway of a mere 600m (ish) 1,500m was barely practicle.

Back in the Brymon days EXT had a habit of attracting fog on the approaches yet the Brymon Twotter(s) would be overhead looking down on a crystal clear airfield ... correct me if I am mistaken but I'm of the impression that fixed wing and rotary wing have the same minima's to adhere to.

And let it not be forgotten that it was 1983 that BA Helicopters lost an inbound to ISC with a significant loss of lives, Brymon Twotters hadn't yet managed to get in to ISC that day, a chopper tried it and the rest is history ... R.I.P.

[Dooby]

The big difference between Skybus and BIH is the base on the mainland, Penzance is FAR less prone to fog problems than Lands End (which is a positive fog magnet)

Going back to that report I posted, nav aids are something that was already being investigated as part of the airport upgrades, I think GPS based nav (with EGNOS) is one possibility.

re: the crash. I still remember that day very vividly. The call came through to the coastguards as we were heading back up from the quay on St Agnes after having met the launch, at that time they thought it was at the back of Gugh, we also thought my aunt was the stewardess that day.

The fog was so thick that, when waiting for the launch, we couldn't see Gugh from the quay, that is possibly less than 100m.

I believe a significant number of changes were made after that day.

[LN-KGL]

Conservative-Independent led Cornwall Council said it was "extremely disappointed" by the decision to end the service, which has offered as many as 40 flights a day and is thought to be used by up to 130,000 people a year.

Well, seems like the Conwall locals don't know the latest passenger number for the two carriers. In 2011 BIH flew 81,120 passengers and the Scilly Skybus 58,899 passengers. I don't know if all passengers to both carriers flew to/from the Scilly Isles, but combined we are talking about 140,019 passengers. Had all this traffic been flown with Dash-8-100s as I have suggested earlier in this thread, this would have equaled to 3,590 fully filled flights with a 39 seat Dash-8-100 and that again equals to five return flights per day. Since you can't fill the aircraft to the top all the time, this would with a more normal load correspond to an average of eight or nine return flights per day to the main land.

The St. Just Land's End Airport will be difficult to use for such a type of operation. The Dash-8 don't like grass fields and the longest runway (16/34) there is only 792 metres long. An in addition to that I might also say the airport is in the middle of nowhere. The purpose of these flights are to connect the Scilly Isles to the rest of the world, and then flying mainly to Newquay. This is 110 km/68 miles flight and a corresponding flight distance made by Widerøe with a Dash-8-100 give a scheduled flight time of 25 minutes. In other words a Dash-8-100 can fly a return ISC-NQY in 90 minutes included turnarounds at both ends. From this only one Dash-8-100 is needed to cover these flight if the eight round trips would have been the case all year around. But I suspect we are mare talking 10-12 daily round trips in the Summer and 5-6 daily round trips during the Winter, then a second Dash-8-100 would be needed to cover the peak season. With two Dash-8s the Scillians could also fly further afield than Newquay to airports like Exeter (to link up with flybe) or to Bristol and in addition have spare capacity enough to cover for maintenance that can be performed during the Winter months.

In other words two Dash-8-100 can replace the existing fleet used to serve the Scilly Isles - 5x S-61N at BIH and 3x Twin Otter and 3x BN Islander at Skybus. The only problem now to solve is to do something to the airport at St Marys since today's runway can't be used for Dash-8-100s.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23931688/Airports/EGHE_new_runway.jpg

Here we go - a new runway turned more in accordance to windrose at ISC can be built. The runway above is 1,000 metre long and 30 metre wide (same measurements at the larger Norwegian STOLports). I know about the seven Scillonian entrance graves at Porth Hellick Down, and I have tried to avoid them all. The inlet to the Porth Hellick don't need to suffer since it is possible to build a concret bridge construction over the inlet for the runway and safety zones in stead of dam construction that had blocked off the whole bay from the sea. Existing terminal facilities can be use, the apron may have to be extended to make place for the larger Dash-8 and existing runways can be converted to taxiways. The length of the new runway (06/24 ish) to the east of the crossing with the existing 14/32 runway exceeds 600 metre, and this part can be used during closure of the old runway and link up the two ends of the new runway. This means the drainage problems the old runway has can be taken care of in the same process without interrupting the normal traffic.

The new runway will cost a lot of money, and I guess the Right Honourable MP from Brentwood and Ongar, Eric Pickles (Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government) will be helpful with funding this regional development that may lead to not needing to classify the flights and ferry operation a PSO (Public service obligation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_service_obligation)). To make the new runway even more reliable for the Scillian population, EP may even take a closer look at this Widerøe shoots world's first approved precision GPS approach (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/widere-shoots-worlds-first-approved-precision-gps-approach-219066/)

[Dooby]

I think that kind of route/service could work, but I really don't think we could realistically get a 1000m runway in no matter how you align it. I reckon you *may* be able to get a 700m one in, preferably aligned to the prevailing wind direction, but failing that perhaps along the line of the old 18/36 runway that is only allowed to be used currently as a heli take off/landing zone or even the current part grass runway 09/27. both are closer to the prevailing wind direction than 14/32 as I understand it.

*EDIT*
Actually, I reckon you might be able to get 800m along 09/27 without going into the sea or into farmland (although you would have a LOT of earth works to level the two ends.

[PlymouthPixie]

I can't see any runway extension happening at St.Marys, it's an area of natural, outstanding beauty and I don't think i'd be allowed by the dutchy - what would be the real point anyway, the current aircraft can already operate out on full loads and the local council wouldn't allow another fixed wing operator in!

The idea behind the resurfacing of the cross runway, all asphalt instead of half grass was to allow the use of it for Twin Otters in dodgy weather conditions, currently with it half grassed it's a bit tight in anything under than perfect weather.

[Dooby]

Where do you get the idea the council wouldn't allow another operator in, given that we have just lost one - and anyway, this isn't just about another operator, its about the remaining operator being able to utilise larger aircraft.

I agree that getting a runway extension would be tricky given the AONB status etc, but there are already being questions asked as to whether the lost capacity can be picked up by the Twin Otters, even if more were bought in.

[Dooby]

@LN-KGL

To the other points you made, PSO - indeed, this is possibly the one silver lining in all this, that the route now has a single company operating the only transport services (the Scillonian Ferry and Skybus having the same parent company).
DGPS/LAAS approach - indeed, I remember discussing this with someone a few years back, unfortunately I believe it is still very expensive to have the kit installed on the airfield. An EGNOS based approach seems far more likely [http://www.essp-sas.eu/downloads/bwssqb/essp_com_5768_01_00_press_release_alderney_lpv.pdf]

[Dooby]

Just one point, the Isles of Scilly doesn't have a government, it has a local council, granted it is a unitary authority, but they still aren't quite a government (however much some of them may think they are :) )

[LN-KGL]

Dooby, a maximum 600 metre long runway is feasible for 09/27. The reasons for this is the regulatory requirements for safety zones at the ends of a runway (inhabited area to the west and terrain drop to the east).

[Dooby]

ah, ok, that makes sense, although I was thinking some kind of elevation of the terrain drop off at the east end might be a possibility.

*edit* actually, extending 09/27 to 600m and making the whole length a hard surface would still help with one of the problems facing the Twin Otters, which is the times they cant use the other runway due to crosswinds (but then, they probably wouldn't need 600m).

[Phileas Fogg]

Regarding another, a replacement, operator coming in to operate the routes.

Well Tresco is about to lose ALL air services and with only a 1,188ft grass runway it can only be served by rotary wing but with PZE about to close and St Just owned/operated by Skybus then, and unless Skybus are about to go rotary wing, then the nearest mainland licensed aerodromes are Perranporth, NQY and Bodmin for any rotary wing to operate from/to, additional flying times = higher and non competitive fares.

At least St. Mary's can take fixed wing Twotters/Islanders so perhaps there is opportunity for an alternative fixed wing operator to fill the gap but, again, the nearest mainland licensed aerodromes are as already mentioned, Skybus aren't about to allow a competitor to use their Lands End aerodrome.

[pennineuk]

Exactly, in the same way Skybus didn't allow BIH to relocate to Lands End.

[cornishsimon]

Not to confuse Tesco with Tresco but you have got to love to spin from Tesco


BBC News - Tesco heliport challenge 'was to safeguard Penzance service' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19124771)


cs

[LN-KGL]

It's all up to the around 2,200 Scillonians what they want - to stay in the past or to move forward. I don't know what was decided in the Coucil of the Isles of Scilly meeting on the 21 June (the minutes isn't published yet) with the regards of what to do with ISC - resurfacing or do nothing and hope they will pass the upcoming friction test in September. Clearly something has to be done with the airport if Isles of Scilly don't want to slip further in to the past.

The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company Ltd will become the sole provider of all transport between the mainland and the Scilly Isles with BIH is closing down their helicopter flights. Fair enough around 500 of the 1,000 share holders are living on the Scilly Isles, but the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company Ltd is a commercial company and they will not necessarily act in the best interest of the all Scillonians. I suspect this will be a case for Competion Commision, and they may end up with a decision to end the monopoly by breaking up company in two - one for air travel and one for maritime transport. This will give a more healthy competition hauling people to and fro the islands. An other alternative will be to make the ISC-mainland a PSO route with carriers having to bid for tenders lasting three of four years. Here is an example of an "Invitation to Tender" that the Norwegian Ministry of Transport and Communications have out now (still 10 days left to the bid end): http://www.regjeringen.no/Upload/SD/Vedlegg/Luftfart/Anbud/tenderinvitationrorosjune2012.pdf

But a tender doesn't solve the main problem - an airport that can only handle old and small aircraft types with rather high crew share (1 to 8 for the Islander and 2 to 19 for the Twin Otter). The average age of Skybus Twin Otters are 32 years and the Islanders are 22 years (the 2 Romanian build BN2Bs are the youngest), but the design of both aircraft types started almost 50 years ago. The Dash-8 design is 20 years younger. Also the twice as high cruise speed of the Dash-8 compared with both the Islander and the Twin Otter is a plus, not that important if an updated St Just is used, but if the mainland activity is moved to Newquay the difference will be significant.

[virginblue]

How could there be a PSO if a commercial service from St. Just to St. Marys is provided by Skybus?

[LN-KGL]

The question is: Would it be really commercial or would it be a form of extortion with their monopoly? To find out if the latter is true will be a task for the Competion Commision, their mission is to prevent the abuse of firms' dominant market positions (Article 102 TFEU). You may have noticed that they decided against BAA - LGW had to be sold off, EDI likewise and now is STN up for grabs. MAG plc is one of the bidders for STN - maybe they sold Humberside Airport to Eastern Group to prevent getting in the Competion Commision search lights?

[Phileas Fogg]

LN-KGL,

But with a geriatric 36 (ish) seater aircraft an operator isn't going to be in a position to offer the frequency of services and load factors, particularly during winters, will be p1ss poor.

[on time all the time]

I have found this article which simply makes me laugh. Since when Tesco is interested in transport and the well being of the Isles of Scilly residents?
BBC News - Tesco heliport challenge 'was to safeguard Penzance service' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-england-cornwall-19124771) >

[on time all the time]

I am trying to go the the Scillys early sept.
I looked at the air fare on friday and found that they had gone down. There were £47.5 and £52.5 one way fares.
I was about to book the next day and found that they had all gone up...£80 one way for a 15 mn plane ride from Lands End. That is an absolute joke!
There is a decrease in the nb of people going there.... it is not surprising!
B&B are the same. Expect to pay £80 to £90 for a tiny room.
Hotels are also extortionate. There is a 2* where there is just space to move around the bed for £160 a night!
I know the season is short but the prices are so outrageous that The locals are killing the business.
And £190 return on BIH does help either. The article mentions that the money BIH would make selling the piece of land would enable them to buy new equipment......maybe a 1/4 of a helicopter!
For those who know where the heliport is there are already 2 hypermarkets there, Do they need a 3rd one?
And why did Skybus/Lands End refused BIH to restart the business from Lands End.
Everyone seems to be shooting in their own foot.

[diginagain]

Nothing at all surprising in your posts, on time, to those of us who live in Cornwall. Hope you have a nice holiday, but you don't have to travel all the way out to the Scillies to enjoy yourself.

[PAXboy]

I have to agree with on time all the time. For several years, a friend and I have been wanting to visit and the air fares are the stopper. The ferry is not an option for me, so it's fly or nothing. Thus far, it's nothing and no sign of change.

For 26 years, my mother lived on the IOM and I saw the prices slowly come down but still high per mile. Eventually, the did manage to expand Ronaldsway but the costs of making a short notice trip to see became unsustainable for us.

Incidentally, I read in the thread about the possibility of splitting the Steamship Company? Problem there would be that one company can use one set of back office people for admin, IT and so on - if you have two companies that means two lots of back office and that means two lots of costs for the pax to pay. I sit to be corrected.

If your Council does not want more tourists, they are suceeding!

[andy_smith89uk]

Could any of FlyBE's Loganair fleet use the runway length available at St. Mary's?

[LN-KGL]

Only the Loganair Twin Otters are in the flybe colours, but I think they are busy doing beach landings. Loganair has also Islanders.

[Aero Mad]

Nobody's going to compete with Skybus on ISC routes as the volumes have been falling for many years anyway - it's not like they've been flooded out and have all their seats full, all the time. However, another hypothetical contender would be Aurigny which as a Trislander operator might be rather more suitable... however their fleet is, like Loganair's, already otherwise engaged.

[onyxcrowle]

What about a dash 8-100 like those used on some Nordic short runways ? . Maybe if it was extended toward the sea . Wasn't Madeira extended over the sea ?

[Heathrow Harry]

LN-KGL is talking sense - it's really up to the islanders

as I see it the real problem is that you have a largish village of 2000 people which, together with tourism, generates circa 140,000 passenger trips a year that wants an air service

that is probably enough for someone to make a living providing an air service but only if they all use the same route. Right now you can think of it as a single point at one end of the network and many source points for the passengers - Cornwall, Exeter, Bristol, London etc etc. Either you go for a very small Caravan/Islander type operation into Cornwall or something like a Dash 8 to Bristol or maybe LGW

In the long run I suspect the route will be charter only unless someone kicks in a big subsidy

[LN-KGL]

Here is some information about the passenger traffic to the Scilly Isles

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23931688/Tabeller/Scilly_pax_May2012.jpg

Souce: UK Airport Statistics | Aviation Intelligence | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&pageid=3&sglid=3)

From the same souce We also learn that ISC had 3,260 passengers in January 2011 and 16,603 in August 2011. In other words it's 5 times as many passengers in August compared with January. From this it's easy to estimate the base line for the local use and with that also know that around 68,000 of 107,000 passengers at ISC are tourist visiting the islands. I guess it would have been the same share of tourists on the flights to Tresco.

Since someone above talked about Aurigny and their Trislanders. Aurigny is French word for the island Alderney. Alderney have around half the number of passengers as the St Marys and Tresco combined. Alderney is not as tourist dependent as the Scilly Isles - the ratio between summer and winter is only 2.4x (there are a number of larger airports on the mainland that have the same ratio as Alderney, but non as high as St Marys and Tresco).

Still there a lot of similarities between Alderney and the Scilly Isles, like population 2,400 vs 2,200, almost equally remote from the closest airport, only one airline company serving (from November for the Scilly Isles) ...
But there are also a number of differences, like the the runway ar ACI is both longer than 800 metres and oriented according to the prevailing wind directions, it is possible to lengthen the existing runway with ease, lower ticket prices for flights compared with ISC, ...

[Wycombe]

....would a BN3 get in and out of ISC? I don't think it has quite the STOL capabilities of the BN2?

Was down in West Cornwall a couple of weeks ago.....when you look at the location of the existing supermarkets in PZ, did BIH not think that Tesco's or Morrisons might object to Sainsburys wanting to build another store right between them?

Or, as others have said, maybe this is the excuse that BIH were looking for??

[Phileas Fogg]

Let it not be missed that it was a Robert Maxwell owned BIH that took over the PZE operation from BA Choppers ... perhaps the modern day BIH has long since realised that there's little, if any, HONEST money to be made from the operation!

[LN-KGL]

The Trislander needs a 450 metre long runway to take off. Neither the Trislander nor the Islander is getting younger as time goes. Here is a 37 year old Trislander at Jersey taken in April.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23931688/Aircraft/840/G-RLON.jpg

Just remember to bring with you ear protection while flying these - last row seats below the third engine are extra noisy.

[davidjohnson6]

There has been talk of the Competition Commission getting involved in transport to/from Scilly.
BIH are leaving the market of their own accord. I have yet to see any suggestion of significantly foul play by Isles of Scilly Travel.

Thus, would the Competition Commission *really* view this as a matter of sufficient concern to be worthy of an investigation ? The length of any airstrip on Scilly alone is really a matter for the people of Scilly (and maybe the CAA or Conwall's local Govt) to decide, and not something on which the Competition Commission is qualified to give any recommendation

[Phileas Fogg]

LN-KGL,

The BN2 Islander is back in production, as is the DHC6 Twotter, as is the Do228NG, is the DHC8-100 back in production of late? :)

[adfly]

Well the DHC8 200/Q200 only went out of production 3 years ago, and the 100 did so just 2 years before. Would the 200 be a better option for IOS, I would have thought the more powerful engines vs the 100 would help it on very short runways!?

[fairflyer]

Only hope to do something sensible is to extend the runway into the island (forget going out into the sea - phenominally expensive) - 600m simply is not enough for anything useful other than the Twin Otter.

However, who would pay? - is this part of the Cornwall Council portfolio or is it Duchy of Cornwall-owned land - i.e. are we going to ask Prince Charles to stump up the £1.5 to £2m or so costs to just add 300 or so metres to the runway? Who owns/leases those fields to the north and would the local authority move the road at the end to squeeze an extra 60 or so metres more? Could they get European EEC funding for such a prject, or at least a contribution?

To the first road you'll extend to about 800m licensed length, to the second road about 850m - depends on Runway End Safety Areas (RESA) deemed necessary. Read somewhere the land dips notably inland though so additional earthworks will ramp costs up significantly.

That just about brings it into the realms of a practical Dash-8-100 commercial operation - with limitations on passenger load/range.

[Hansard]

Why are we all assuming there's something wrong with the current set-up? Why do we need a longer runway and larger aircraft? The Twin Otters and Islanders have been operating successfully for decades. The Islands are attractive to many because they're small-scale, quirky, remote, exclusive, old-fashioned, untouched by mass tourism, etc., etc.

[Heathrow Harry]

interesting numbers from LN-KGL

"We also learn that ISC had 3,260 passengers in January 2011 and 16,603 in August 2011. In other words it's 5 times as many passengers in August "

So 10 people a day in January and maybe 50-60 a day in summer

even a Trislander will be struggling to make money in winter with loadings like that - and I'd guess a Dash 8 would be marginal in summer

[Heathrow Harry]

Hansard

I agree the islands are attractive etc etc - the problem is that providing the air service is not attractive - its pretty marginal and now new kit and/or new bases are required on the mainland

Unless you can find a sugar daddy (e.g the Bearded One who owns Neckar island) or the UK Govt to stump up for a social service, it's going to be back to the boats or a charter operation

I'd have thought that in past times the EU might have come up with some cash for the runway (although the press they get in Cornwall is pretty off-putting TBH)

[LN-KGL]

Heathrow Harry, I think we say 105 passengers per day in January 2011 and 535 passengers per day in August 2011 ;)

[fairflyer]

Hansard - both the Twin Otter operation and the S61 helicopter are not cheap on the seat cost front. The Twotters just about stretch to Bristol/Southampton with limitations. Bigger aircraft (facilitated by more runway length) means lower costs, better connectivity further up the country towards London and beyond. I think the French would quite like a connection too.

Of course if the islanders want to keep out the 'riffraff' by maintaining the limitations imposed by having to use small aircraft and limit the volume of tourists, that's fine. I suspect however that there are islanders that wish it wasn't so expensive to escape and island-based businesses that would wish to see a few more visitors on the islands.

Islanders need to debate those pros and cons, then, if it's to be a longer runway, work out where the money comes from and the return on the investment. Again, who would pay if the latter?

[LN-KGL]

fairflyer, lengthening the existing runway will include in average a 10 m (33 ft) high landfill. Using only Google Earth as a land survey instrument, the orange area below has to filled out with compacked stone.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23931688/Airports/ISC_profil.jpg

In addition to this three tunnels for the existing roads has to be built. The existing runway has to be widened from 23 m (75 ft) to 30 m (100 ft). 60 m (200 ft) wide safety zones to the east and west of the runway have to made (maxium slope angle for these are given by the autorities). And then there is the overrun safety zones at the ends of the runway, and for such small airports they now have to be 150 m (492 ft). The A3110 is border line to not crossing inside the overrun zone, but it has to be covered since it is angled relative to the runway centre line. In the south end (sea side) of the runway today's overrun zone isn't good enough and has to be corrected so that you don't end in the drink. These overrun zones can be shortened if EMAS (engineered materials arresting system) is used.

If there are no silt or clay and only a thin soil covering the bedrock, we are talking about between 700,000 and 800,000 metric tonnes stone masses for this landfill to fill the gully for a lengthened runway. This will mean a rather large quarry to get all that stone.

[Phileas Fogg]

LN-KGL,

The Scillies are an area of natural beauty and, with all due respect, some of us prefer our green and pleasant land to remain green and pleasant and not to be concreted over UNECCESSARILY !!!!!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Much as I love flying into these type of destinations, I agree, that the tourists should continue to arrive by chopper, and boat.

Keep the natural beauty, and lets not polute either by building a BIG airport, or by increasing the noise.

Glf

[LN-KGL]

Phileas Fogg and Gulfstreamaviator, my last post about lengthening the existing runway was to illustrate the madness to even concider do so.

I think it also was suggested to lengthen the runway to the south in to the sea, but then you have to struggle with water depths of more than 40 metres. The costs will be big, both for the purse and nature.

The last point this time: The aircraft types used today are among the noisiest used for passenger traffic today. With so few on board each aircraft, the exposure (the number of flights) is also very high. In other words, any change will reduce the noise levels.

[Phileas Fogg]

What?

So a 'thundering fart' BN2 Islander is noisier than, let us say, a B747?

[LN-KGL]

We are after all talking about aircraft capable of landing on a 600 m or 800 m long runway - and that excludes most aircraft that don't have prop(s).

[adfly]

No but the Twotter, Islander and Trislander are a good deal noisier than the Dash 8 100/200 being suggested as a replacement. And while they are obviously less noisy than a 747 i'd happily bet they be worse off if the noise was measured as decibels per tonne or passenger! :ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

That's ridiculous ... If we were measuring noise per seat then the noisiest aircraft would likely be single seater's!

I live on an island, the other side of the island from the airport so don't often see nor hear the twice weekly ATR72 but when we do it's a kindly reminder that we are connected to civilisation.

Do we complain about any noise it may make whilst it's bringing in the tourists that we're making money from? ..... Well go figure. :)

[Heathrow Harry]

or the noise made by those oh so silent helicopters..............

[Red Four]

I hear Viking are studying restarting DHC Buffalo production. Would a passenger version of that be any good on existing Scilly runway?

[adfly]

Twotter 400 anyone? Viking have also restarted the Twotter line with the upgraded '400' series which has been going for not very long.

[Toxic Thrust]

The fact is there are 80,000 odd passengers to be picked up by someone that are currently carried on the heli service. The immediate answer to me is to ramp up the number of rotations on Twotters and Islanders to plug the gap. If there are 80,000 pax for the taking then believe me someone will respond to the need. Everyone is going on about how 'old' they are but the fact is there are hundreds of Islands and mountain locked communtities that have aircraft like Twotters,Islanders,D228's and Let 410's as their link with the outside world. You start using aircraft above 19 seats and they come into the NASP and you have to have oodles of security kit and staff to handle a couple of Dash 8's a day and I can't see that being particularly cost efficient either.

TT

[adfly]

How would a D228NG perform? I would have thought those or Twotter 400's would be the best direct replacements.

[ATP_Al]

Surely the point of introducing larger aircraft would be to enable flights to other destinations, rather than simply to replace the helicopter and sky bus flights? With a dhc8 100 you could add connections to London and Manchester (perhaps with a tech stop at NQY outbound from ISC). Or is this the problem, that the islanders don't want to more connected to the outside world?

If a dhc8 operation was established, there are plenty of qualified crews in the south west.....

[Phileas Fogg]

ATP Al,

In the old days one could fly LON/ISC/LON with a connection via PLH, one could route from anywhere to LHR and/or LGW to fly to ISC via PLH ... and then a BRS/ISC service was added to serve those driving down the M5/M6 side of the country who didn't fancy the summer congestion of the Devon/Cornwall roads.

All that went when Brymon got rid of the Twotters. Since then PLH has gone, Land's End is not suitable, I don't think EXT would work because would need to carry round trip fuel EXT/ISC/EXT but then NQY has up country routes, all it might take is a BH2/DHC6 operator to set up in NQY and fix a schedule around the arriving and departing up country routes.

That said Brymon didn't make, indeed lose, their money on a sole ISC operation and I think any incoming operator might struggle to make ISC profitable on an all year basis.

[LN-KGL]

I don't think the number of passengers heading to and from the Scilly Isles can sustain an Air Southwest version 2. With a 800 m long runway a DH8A will have weight restrictions and both LON and MAN will be too far afield for a direct flight.

[Airbanda]

So the analysis so far is that extending ISC to over 800m with modern overrun etc protections is physically impossible and would in any event present planning/conservation hurdles. Even if it were possible there are further security and logistical (handling, fuelling, transport to Hugh Town) problems with a/c in the 40seat category.

So the solution is likely to be a high frequency shuttle in a sub 20 seater.

The next problem is a mainland terminal. St Just has it's own problems, Newquay and Exeter are too far. A new 'drome, even small and with tight operating restrictions a la LCY, is going to get mired in planning.

How difficult would it be in planning, security and road access to use RNAS Culdrose?

[LGS6753]

Revolutionary thought -

Why not replace the helicopter service with...

another helicopter service?

Can't St Just be improved to handle pax-carrying choppers?
Surely there are more economical helicopters available than 40-year old S-61s?
That would no doubt be cheaper than extending the runway at St Mary's - even if that were possible.

But what do I know?
Nothing, I hear you shout.
I'll get my coat.

[GROUNDHOG]

There is an airport at Truro or failing that I have a couple of spare acres they could land in, problem is the neighbours might not be that keen!

[Phileas Fogg]

LGS,

But Skybus own/operate St. Just airfield and they've already refused one chopper operator to operate from there ... they're keeping any opposition/competitor out of their little grass aerodrome!

Airbanda,

One problem with Culdrose, indeed Predannack airfield also, is that there is no railway and the roads become congested.

Redruth has a railway and the A30, there's always Portreath (Nancekuke) airfield ... but that's another story :)

[on time all the time]

That is what I am saying.
Everyone is shooting in their own foot by being outrageously expensive, refusing competition and Tesco defending the islanders.....since when Tesco has been interested in transport and since when a piece of land can help buy such expensive machines.....Everyone seems to be either lying or suicidal!
My theory is BIH could not afford buying new helicopters and was closing the business anyway. Any other option was no way as good as the actual Heliport so why would they want to get rid of it. Land's end is few miles away from Penzance(the train brings a lot of custom), Truro would add expenses, flights being longer....

[Phileas Fogg]

But every little helps :) ... Whilst Tesco pay their reduced taxes in (non UK) Switzerland :)

[PlymouthPixie]

West Cornwall MP, Andrew George, has revealed that talks are underway with an unnamed helicopter operator to save the rotary link to the Isles of Scilly and would launch next Spring. He claims this particular helicopter operator is one of the biggest in the world...

[GROUNDHOG]

Hence my post number 92 .... I repeat..... "It's not over till the fat lady sings" and she hasn't even got on the bus yet.

[Martin the Martian]

So, how are things going now that Land's End has its brand new hard runways?

[cornishsimon]

Well LEQ only reopened on Tuesday over a week later than scheduled due to issues with the surface so probably a little early to tell how things are going.

[pennineuk]

ISSC is to start a helicopter service in 2018, Lands End to Scilly, presumably to challenge the Tresco Estate plans to reinstate Penzance-Scilly.

https://www.islesofscilly-travel.co.uk/

[davidjohnson6]

I very much doubt there is room for 2 competing firms to provide helicopter service to Scilly. I imagine the 2 firms involved probably believe so as well. I would refer anyone of a different opinion to the situation in the Scottish islands with Loganair, Eastern and Flybe.

We are thus left with the question as to which of the 2 firms with commercial responsibility for any losses from helicopter charters will blink first and back down

[pennineuk]

Penzance has the better weather options, but the question is whether it is up and running soon. Clearly this is a calculated attempt by the ISSC to undermine the option. They’ve had around 4 years (?) to start the service...why wait until now?

[cornishsimon]

I’m not sure lands end has facilities to hangar a chopper to be honest. Which would then suggest that it would position in from elsewhere ? NQY ? I believe it’s to be operated by the same company that operates the cornwall air ambulance so being NQY based would fit ?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Lands End has hangars, who's to suggest that those hangars are only for fixed wing.

And it seems that St. Just is some 25% nearer to the islands than a new PZE would be, less fuel burn, engine hours etc. so if it there became a price war, which is always good for the consumer of course, I know who my money would be on winning.

[cornishsimon]

The reason I query the hangar space at LEQ is that from memory I don’t think the existing structures have the height to accommodate choppers.

It might just be an illusion when your in the hangar but BN2 & DHC6 yes no issues. I could be mistaken. What’s the height difference between the two based models and the proposed chopper ?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Well it seems the AW169 is 4.5m/14' 9'' tall and the DHC6 5.94m/19' 6'' tall

[cornishsimon]

Fair play. LEQ it should be then

[Heathrow Harry]

Damn sight easier to get to Newquay or Penzance from up country than lands End.

[GROUNDHOG]

I wish Mr Dorrien Smith every success, Penzance is by far the most logical place to operate from being on the end of the main rail line, travel to the Isles of Scilly has for far too long been in a monopoly.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Well according to AA Routeplanner LEQ is only 6.9 miles and 15 minutes from Penzance whilst the rail station to a new PZE heliport must be 5 minutes.

The flying time shall be shorter from/to LEQ, if Skybus could lay on a rail station courtesy bus they could certainly give a new heliport a run for their money.

[cornishsimon]

Don’t believe everything you read on the inter web. You won’t do penzance to LEQ in 15 minutes. Maybe at 0330 in a car with blue flashy lights but certainly not during daytime flying hours

[Harry Wayfarers]

But from my day down that way the Emmet's would in the main be creating the world's second largest car park, after the M25, on the A30!

[Wycombe]

if Skybus could lay on a rail station courtesy bus

I believe they already do https://www.islesofscilly-travel.co.uk/plan-your-trip/bus-transfers/

[Jetscream 32]

Is it only me or am I missing something here...... The existing operator of the twotters / Islanders are planning on using an AW139 on the same routing as their fixed wing aircraft?

I find it very doubtful that the Tresco estate owners who want to operate their own service from Penzance will allow the incumbent operator to land on their estate? Which means they only have 1 landing site which will be St Mary's that they already fly to, confused dot com!

[cornishsimon]

Spot on JS

Add in the fact that LEQ suffers more adverse weather than penzance and the entire thing seems quite bizzare

[jensdad]

My feelings exactly. When I read about this I just thought, 'Why??' The only sensible reason could be that they feel a need to boost capacity but can't get their hands on another suitable fixed-wing. Surely not?

[EastMids]

So the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company lodged an objection to the application for a new heliport to be built in Penzance to support rotary winged flights to the islands. Then last year IOSSC claimed there was insufficient demand for travel to the Scillys beyond what was already available via boat and fixed-wing flights. It subsequently forced a judicial review of the plans for a new heliport in Penzance, that were unanimously approved by the council. So the plans for the new heliport are currently bogged down in red tape.

But now it is launching its own helicopter service from Lands End Airport - quite a change of viewpoint.

For what it's worth, IOSSC owns the boat that provides sea crossings to the islands, it owns SkyBus that provides the only scheduled fixed wing flights to the islands, and it owns Lands End Airport from where most of the fixed wing flights depart.

[GROUNDHOG]

Nothing whatever to do with Penzance vs Lands End this is just a blatant strategy by IOSSC to protect the monopoly they have held for 50 years.

If Penzance airport was to get the go ahead why on earth wouldn't IOSSC operate rotary flights from there as was their choice for many many years.

If the new service starts what odds when the bluff is called IOSSC make no effort to start a new rotary service from anywhere.

[Wycombe]

to protect the monopoly they have held for 50 years.


I wasn't aware they operated the S61's aswell!

[cornishsimon]

They didn’t.

It was BA then British international.

Slight bit of trivia but the BI S61s still operate over cornwall, mAinly I understand for the MOD now based at NQY.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I wouldn't call a 8-10 seater chopper increasing capacity significantly in lieu of a Twotter, Twotters are in production again and I'm sure there are a few available on the market somewhere.

The LEQ chopper has to be destined for a Tresco route, I can't believe that it would be for St. Mary's.

The talk of PZE vs LEQ weather when the biggest problem is ISC fog, the minima is/was an RVR of 1500m which is pretty much impossible on a 600m runway, fog clears by the sun heating up the land and lifting the fog but in ISC there is so little land the approaches remain clagged up, in such conditions the choppers were more successful at getting in than the Twotters, they could simply go in to the overhead and drop in!

One concern I would have is that the proposed LEQ chopper is from a Gloucester based operator, ISC has it's own somewhat unique weather problems, Brymon had some 'special' Captains that knew the place like the back of their hand, one Captain 'Doc', all he had to do was sight his rock that he used as a navigational aid and he could get in, I believe they still refer to it as 'Doc's rock' :)

But the S61 that went in was crewed by an ABZ based crew, apparently they became disorientated and the rest is history, it should take local pilots with a local knowledge in such conditions.

[Wycombe]

It was BA then British international.

Yes, well aware of that thanks. Just a gentle jibe that IOSSC have only had the monopoly since the S61's home was built on by Sainsburys!

[GROUNDHOG]

Rather a senior moment and mistype there, I am well aware it was not IOSSC who operated the rotary service from Penzance, perhaps they merely tolerated it. Nothing happens on air routes to IOS without their influence, I go back to 1967 operating flights there and it was no different then.

[Jetscream 32]

They may well have just shot their own foot right off.... Calling a Judicial Review, then actually starting your own heli-service is just bonkers! Any legal QC is going to probably make a call of "if its good enough for you to do it - then its good enough for others"

Would also be a very expensive operation that will be incredibly short lived in all probability because they will be paying for SAS to have crews locally based, and due to the number of rotations and days of the week, that will be at least 2 crews on rotation of probably week about.

It will also be operated according to SAS ops manual and for scheduled pax ops / it won't be the same as HEMS or PAS.

On an outsourced basis with such high cycles versus flight time and probably an avg load factor of 7 or less then that is loss-making from the start - and that is without the cost of sales, and IOSSC overheads

If you speak to any of the AW139 SAr guys that operate the same type, operating over / in a salt water environment all day soon takes its toll on required line maintenance - which will be intense..... and thats the same for both operators if they compete!

[virginblue]

There is talk about 8 daily flights from Land's End, so they cannot all be for Tresco which never saw a lot of capacity back in the golden S61 days. Which begs the question - which type of passenger are they targeting if the same company offers fixed wing aircraft flights on the same route to ISC for half the price? While I hear claims that Land's End is closed for fixed wing ops 1 in 4 days on average, it would appear to be a rather bizarre business plan to mainly target stranded plane passengers once or twice a week (plus giving Tresco an - at this point unwanted - airlink). Is there not enough airlifit capacity to/from ISC since the demise of BIH so that people have to resort to the vomit comet and go by ship? Both heli proposals will add capacity to ISC, but will not make travel to/from St. Mary's cheaper.

[Harry Wayfarers]

It doesn't say 8 daily flights from Lands End ... What is says is "up to 8 daily flights", take-off until landing is one flight, clever marketing but that could suggest just 4 rotations, i.e. 4 departures from Lands End with the other 4 departures being from Scillies, and it is up to 8 flights a day, the 8 flights might only be on a Saturday with the rest of the week perhaps 2 or 4 flights daily.

[jensdad]

They are still being very coy about where the heli flights are actually going. Everything I can see on their website or facebk page talks about a service from Land's End 'to the Isles of Scilly'.If they were reintroducing a heli service to Tresco after so many years, would they not be making a bit more noise about it? I don't know... It all leads me to wonder if even they have decided whether they're going to do purely LEQ-ISC or LEQ-ISC-Tresco!

[Harry Wayfarers]

According to the Tresco Heliport wiki page in the old days of a summer it would receive up to 6 S61's, that's somewhere around 120 seats so 8 x 10 seats isn't so silly as it may sound.

[cornishsimon]

I personally can’t see the skybus chopper service ever operating to Tresco simply because the heliport is owned by Tresco estate which is behind the PZE plan

[Harry Wayfarers]

But Tresco is dependant upon tourism and if you were a Tresco hotelier, or other tourism related business proprietor, and an air operator were refused permission to bring in the tourists to you would you lie back and think of England or would you kick up a stink?

[virginblue]

IIRC correctly back from my visit, Tresco is pretty much a one-man-show owned and run by Robert Dorrien-Smith. As Tresco in the past relied to some extent on day visitors visiting the gardens and the abbey, he understandably is keen to re-estalbish the heli link and thus is behind the new Penzance heliport. I suppose these days the number of daytrippers is somewhat more limited. So unless the IoSS heli venture ruins his business plan, he will not allow island helicopters to serve Tresco.

[pennineuk]

Correct, RD-S holds a long lease on Tresco and owns the hotel on the adjacent island of Bryher.

There were up to 6 choppers a day a few years ago, although the Gardens on Tresco now get many visitors from visiting cruise ships.

Ultimately the chopper service is about operating in poor weather, which is why PZE is a better options than Lands End. The ISSCo initiative is a rather childish spoiler in my view and won’t last long, if indeed it really starts.

[virginblue]

There appears to be some bad blood involved with IoSS being the bad guy. Reminds me a little bit of the recent Flybe - Loganair saga up in Scotland where the public obviously voted with their feet/wallets.

For example, Tresco advises visitors that they can no longer book flights on Skybus for a package holiday for a fixed fare, but simply have to book flights based on live pricing for the general public. Apparently IoSS is no longer willing to cut Tresco a deal. I also noted that IoSS since 2016 no longer offers partial refunds for passenger of flights cancelled due to adverse weather if those passengers opt for alternative transport on the Scillonian - something they apparently did in the past when they had competition.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Wow, the Scillonian is the same company as Skybus and they won't transfer tickets!

Get some competition in there, BN2 or DHC6 operator from NQY, last I checked Bodmin was a licensed airfield, it doesn't cost GBP100 for one way travel to from the islands to operate and Bodmin, despite it's weather problems, has a mainline rail station

[rog747]

virginblue

pretty much correct -

in the old day of BEA/BA s61's they served both the islands ISC and TSO and not some fat cats who are now having a major
cat fight!

[virginblue]

Wow, the Scillonian is the same company as Skybus and they won't transfer tickets!


My understanding is that they transfer tickets, but do no longer refund the difference between the much more expensive airfare and the cost of the trip by its passenger ship as they did in the past.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Well as they say weather is an act of god and we can rebook you on the next available service in a day or few from now, technical or similar the we can refund you in full .,.. I'm in a similar business myself and can understand that.

[pennineuk]

The Tresco Estate have just confirmed that the ISSCo helicopter service will not serve Tresco in 2018. The heliport is Tresco is closed and will not be ready for service until 2019 when hopefully the new Penzance heliport is open.

[Flightrider]

If that is what Skybus are doing in bad weather then I think they need to have a serious re-read of the EU 261 regulations.

[virginblue]

That is their take on it:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/trescoisland/pdfs/Skybus_Weather_Disruption_Statement.pdf

[Flightrider]

The letter as it stands is non-compliant with the EU regulations and it would be interesting if anyone chose to challenge it.

In the event of a cancellation for whatever reason, the carrier is obliged to re-route the passenger to their intended destination under comparable transport conditions - which is held to be by air. Clearly this may not be possible if the next flights with seats available are several days away.

If the carrier is re-routing via transport conditions which are not comparable - an air journey is undertaken by ferry instead - then it has taken the step to fully refund the passenger for their air journey and rebook them. ISSCo should therefore be refunding the difference between the airfare and the ferry fare, less any reasonable costs for transport of customers between the airport and the ferry pier which it may provide.

The current policy is wishful thinking by someone on the basis of what they'd like EU261 to say, not what it actually does say and require.

[cornishsimon]

Rival helicopter link to Isles of Scilly 'cannot land' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-43182903


cs

[Martin the Martian]

Wow, the Scillonian is the same company as Skybus and they won't transfer tickets!

Get some competition in there, BN2 or DHC6 operator from NQY, last I checked Bodmin was a licensed airfield, it doesn't cost GBP100 for one way travel to from the islands to operate and Bodmin, despite it's weather problems, has a mainline rail station

The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company control all commercial transport to the Scillies, whether it be air or sea, passenger or cargo. They also own Land's End Airport, which makes the possibility of anyone else starting up a service from there unlikely as they can pretty much block it any way they like -hence why the people behind the new heliport scheme were not at all keen on running it from there even before weather considerations were taken into account.

Bodmin may be licensed but not, I think, for airline ops. Newquay is the only viable alternative.

[cornishsimon]

It would be great for someone to start up a BN or DH6 service ex NQY and offer codeshares and onward connections to allow through bookings.

It would open the islands up to much more traffic.

[GROUNDHOG]

Float plane anyone?

[rog747]

It would be great for someone to start up a BN or DH6 service ex NQY and offer codeshares and onward connections to allow through bookings.

It would open the islands up to much more traffic.

**ahem cough**

Brymon did it from back in the 1970's via NQY or PLH (and EXT too i think) to LHR or LGW using the Herald and Dash 7 (lovely a/c)

I handled BC at LHR 1977-1985 good times
always loved it when pax turned up with a ticket LHR-NQY-ISC and we tagged their bags right through to the island

sometimes we got interliners from ISC to NQY then into LHR on the evening service bound for CPT BKK or SYD - bags tagged through and we would do a tarmac transfer for the pax straight to their SAA or QF jumbo on the T3 stands
happy days

[Harry Wayfarers]

**ahem cough**

Brymon did it from back in the 1970's via NQY or PLH (and EXT too i think) to LHR or LGW using the Herald and Dash 7 (lovely a/c)

I handled BC at LHR 1977-1985 good times
always loved it when pax turned up with a ticket LHR-NQY-ISC and we tagged their bags right through to the island

sometimes we got interliners from ISC to NQY then into LHR on the evening service bound for CPT BKK or SYD - bags tagged through and we would do a tarmac transfer for the pax straight to their SAA or QF jumbo on the T3 stands
happy days

I worked for Brymon 82-85, they operated LHR to PLH & NQY with onward connection and from LGW to EXT & PLH ditto, they also operated from EMA & BHX to LGW to connect with the ex LGW services etc., later they operated BRS/NQY/ISC ... they couldn't do BRS/ISC direct cos no fuel available on ISC. ... Oh back in the old days :)

[rog747]

I worked for Brymon 82-85, they operated LHR to PLH & NQY with onward connection and from LGW to EXT & PLH ditto, they also operated from EMA & BHX to LGW to connect with the ex LGW services etc., later they operated BRS/NQY/ISC ... they couldn't do BRS/ISC direct cos no fuel available on ISC. ... Oh back in the old days :)

Brymon
fred taylor and his daughter heather was cabin crew Herald on LHR
CP was harry Gee - saw him do the London Dash 7 Stol landing on the royal docks 1982/3?
keith bastard (he came to us in BD eventually on the viscount)
colin henshall to name a few

also ISSCo used to do direct SOU flights to ISC (did they have to stop at EXT?)

[Stampe]

I remember flying as a pax SOH -ISC direct in a Twin Otter it was virtually full and the weather was not that good we were told we were going to nip into Plymouth to pick up a couple of pax that were stranded there but we carried out a missed approach having had no ground contact whatsoever and carried on to ISC breaking cloud at relatively low level I was watching the the DME indicator count up from LND beacon.My wife is a nervous flyer and really did not enjoy the lengthy flight! SOH was a very bad pax experience and they have done well to drop it.Eventually I noticed a change in the experience profile of the Twin Otter fleet and preferring not to be flown by Ray Ban clad teenagers we changed the annual flight to the BIH S61 operation for many happy and safe years.Overall the S61 was the safest and most reliable operator on what is a very challenging route we miss it greatly nowadays generally flying over in the family light aircraft if the weather is suitable.What a superb holiday destination but very expensive!

[Harry Wayfarers]

I remember flying as a pax SOH -ISC direct in a Twin Otter it was virtually full and the weather was not that good we were told we were going to nip into Plymouth to pick up a couple of pax that were stranded there but we carried out a missed approach having had no ground contact whatsoever and carried on to ISC breaking cloud at relatively low level I was watching the the DME indicator count up from LND beacon.My wife is a nervous flyer and really did not enjoy the lengthy flight! SOH was a very bad pax experience and they have done well to drop it.Eventually I noticed a change in the experience profile of the Twin Otter fleet and preferring not to be flown by Ray Ban clad teenagers we changed the annual flight to the BIH S61 operation for many happy and safe years.Overall the S61 was the safest and most reliable operator on what is a very challenging route we miss it greatly nowadays generally flying over in the family light aircraft if the weather is suitable.What a superb holiday destination but very expensive!

I recall Skybus operating a SOU route, Skybus do, or they did, have a stock of fuel on ISC whereas Brymon didn't so not sure if SOU was direct or not.

You say the S61 is the safest but not so, Brymon nor Skybus have lost an aircraft and lives on the route whereas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_British_Airways_Sikorsky_S-61_crash

[canberra97]

SOU was via Newquay was never direct, Skybus used to advertise SOU as a quick and easy way of getting to London and the route usually had good loads but was rather long flight in the Twin Otter.

[pennineuk]

New Penzance heliport planning finally approved
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-45042511
l am looking forward to a first flight in 2019....although it feels ambitious to have it up and running so quickly.

[awwdabaaby]

I remember them operating to Glasgow, this was the late 90s I'm sure as I was in the airport with work experience from School and I remember that one of the guys i was with said that it was the only aircraft that can technically push back itself

[chaps1954]

If you go to US you see aircraft push themselves back ( DC-9 and MD-80) and I have seen it at Manchester but not for a long long time (Britannia)

[Scottie Dog]

I love the thought of an aircraft being able to physically "push" itself back. I think the terminology that you want is "power back" and yes I can recall a number of prop aircraft doing that at Manchester until it was, I believe, deemed to be dangerous.

[Egda]

Eastern used to do it with their Jetstreams at Aberdeen when I last flew out of there in 2006

[gkmeech]

Eastern J41’s still power back at SOU from some stands

[rog747]

New Penzance heliport planning finally approved
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-45042511
l am looking forward to a first flight in 2019....although it feels ambitious to have it up and running so quickly.


S19 Chopper Ops canned due low bookings

Skybus would have been better to go for a bigger fixed wing aircraft - ?

The 50 seater Dash 7 of Brymon was earmarked for the ISC route in 1980 when I handled with them at LHR, but was deemed too big back then when the island airport was still fledgling.
Today with the new longer hard runway they would have been real people movers and possibly even served a London direct service

[davidjohnson6]

Is it the helicopter from Penzance that's been cancelled or the one from Land's End instead ?

[Jersey32D]

Is it the helicopter from Penzance that's been cancelled or the one from Land's End instead ?

It's the Skybus helicopter service from Lands End only.

[davidjohnson6]

Last summer the Isles of Scilly Skybus helicopter / Island Helicopters operated by Specialist Aviation Services to St Mary's left from Land's End and not Penzance. My understanding was that Penzance heliport would be used for a service to Tresco maybe this year but more likely beginning next year.

So does that mean the helicopter from Land's End to St Mary's has been cancelled ? Or has something changed since last summer ? Or have I got very confused ?

[EGTE]

The helicopter service that has been scrapped was operated by Skybus.
The Heliport at Penzance is for a different operator.

[chaps1954]

Why are they still advertising then as the advert is the helicopter that was operating from LEQ last summer

[RedhillPhil]

This week's "Cornishman" is reporting that the I.O.S. Steamship company are scrapping their helicopter service due to low passenger numbers. At the prices they were charging I'm not surprised. They only introduced it to get one up on the proposed rival.

[pennineuk]

Lands End to St Marys helicopter marketed by Skybus has been cancelled from 2019 season onward. It was a spoiler for the 'other' service.

The other service is the Tresco Estate-sponsored service that will operate from a new heliport currently under construction at Penzance, just metres away from the old heliport. Services will operate to Tresco and St Marys. Service and Penzance heliport open in 2020.

[virginblue]

Could just as well have been the acknowledgement of a failed strategy to make the other proposed service to re-think the investment. Apparently this has failed, so there really is no point to continue this service.

[rog747]

S19 Chopper Ops canned due low bookings

Skybus would have been better to go for a bigger fixed wing aircraft - ?

The 50 seater Dash 7 of Brymon was earmarked for the ISC route in 1980 when I handled with them at LHR, but was deemed too big back then when the island airport was still fledgling.
Today with the new longer hard runway they would have been real people movers and possibly even served a London direct service

Following on from a discussion on Pprune rotor heads I thought here would be better to share...


I think at the time (1981?) it was thought the DASH 7 could go anywhere where the Twotter could, but St Mary's then, was found to be out of limits - I think there was one test fight with Brymon. Capt Harry Gee iirc. But they were not happy.

Today I think with it's hard longer runway built in 1991 a DASH 7 would be fine, but they are old and almost out of service, and I guess ISC would need upgraded to add security Etc and other needs to operate a 35 - 50 pax aircraft.
These costs and extra personnel would likely be not cost effective, unless some sort of exemption could be allowed for ISC?

Not sure is the smaller DASH 8 -100 or a -300 would be permitted for ISC with it's 600m - ?

Edit
re DASH performance
The Dash 8 design has better cruise performance than the Dash 7, is less expensive to operate, and is much less expensive to maintain, due largely to having only two engines. It is a little noisier than the Dash 7 and cannot match the STOL performance of its earlier DHC forebears, although it is still able to operate from small airports with runways less than 3,000 ft long, compared to the 2,000 ft required by a fully laden Dash 7.


Tyrolean Dash 7's and 8's and Olympic Dash 8 did send theirs to tiny Greek island airports - Paros (old airport 720m) and Kastelorizo (800m) but am sure the DASH 8's were payload limited.

Great video here of DASH 7 ops into old Paros around 1985 (New Paros airport built 2015 with 1400m)

Go in at 7m 00s to see the airport and landing and take off etc of a Tyrolean DASH 7 (full flight) in 1985 at Paros OLD airport
I think Tyrolean operated back to Austria via another Greek island to pick up fuel
https://youtu.be/0zc-1REM3gI

Just read that last summer Travel Service (SmartWings) Boeing 737-700 flew in and out at Paros via Preveza !!!
The direct charter flights (Tuesday and Friday), from June 2018 . The Prague-Paros route will be served by a Boeing 737-700 with a capacity for 120 passengers. It will distribute tourists from four Czech travel agencies to the islands of Paros and Naxos.
First flight had 88 pax
https://youtu.be/K4mY5DvkqS0

[virginblue]

The Norwegian STOLPorts served by Wideroe with DHC8-100/200 have a standard minimum runway length of 880m. A few are even shorter. 830m is, IIRC, the shortest.

[Alteagod]

Sorry off topic but re Paros airport why is it so heavily pixelated on Google earth?

[Flightrider]

ATR were working on a STOL version of the ATR42-600 largely as a replacement for Dash 8-100/200s for Wideroe, but I don't think the numbers of brand new high-cost aircraft versus keeping older Dash 8s running were fully viable (yet). Even so, an aircraft of that size into ISC will be a definite challenge.

[rog747]

The Norwegian STOLPorts served by Wideroe with DHC8-100/200 have a standard minimum runway length of 880m. A few are even shorter. 830m is, IIRC, the shortest.

Yes OA fly their 35 seat Dash 8-100 into Kastelorizo 800m (from Rhodes a 25 mins flight) but they are payload restricted down by about 5-10 seats iirc

[rog747]

Sorry off topic but re Paros airport why is it so heavily pixelated on Google earth?

''New'' Paros only opened a couple of years ago - runway lengthened to 1400m which you can see on GE - albeit highly pixalled

The old national airport is the same location and runway was 700m as seen in the 1985 video

[virginblue]

Sorry off topic but re Paros airport why is it so heavily pixelated on Google earth?

This - and quite a few similar stories - may give you an idea:
BBC News | UK | Greek tragedy for jailed plane-spotters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1697862.stm)

[jensdad]

''New'' Paros only opened a couple of years ago - runway lengthened to 1400m which you can see on GE - albeit highly pixalled

The old national airport is the same location and runway was 700m as seen in the 1985 video
Nearly in the same location - the old airport is to the South East of the new one. The runway at the old one is still extant and visible, albeit also pixellated, on GE. No idea what they're trying to hide - neither are military as far as I know?

[rog747]

Nearly in the same location - the old airport is to the South East of the new one. The runway at the old one is still extant and visible, albeit also pixellated, on GE. No idea what they're trying to hide - neither are military as far as I know?


Ah thanks - I was lead to understand the old runway was extended cheers!

I can see it now

[pennineuk]

Tickets now on sale for the new helicopter service from Penzance to St Marys and Tresco, See here. (https://penzancehelicopters.co.uk/) Services start in 2020. Interesting to note £1.9m grant from the EU. Probably one of the last to be given in the UK!

[FQTLSteve]

They don't deserve the grant as they voted Leave in Cornwall. Try getting that replaced by a right wing market worshipping UK Government. Enjoy it while you can Cornwall, the reality of Brexit is just around the corner, a very different world awaits you.

[cornishsimon]

Get real https://www.pprune.org/members/367186-fqtlsteve

Cornwall suffers the same issues as any other part of the country that voted to leave. Same as parts of the US that voted for president trump doesn’t mean all Texans should be spoken too in the same way or generalized against

same as not all Cornish voted to leave

cs

[SARF]

You do realise the EU’s money is actually ours, less what they decide to spend a large wedge of it on elsewhere in Europe.. and obviously less all the expenses and salary’s for,fat Eurocrats who decide to let us have a small percentage back

[chaps1954]

Yes but if the UK had spent it, it would be on south east not Cornwall or north of watford

Ian

[AirportPlanner1]

Sadly SARF has been lost to decades of right wing press indoctrination. There’s no saving them.

[inOban]

There's an old mantra in the advertising business that, if you repeat a claim often enough, people will believe it, its truth becomes irrelevant. You can't do this in advertising nowadays, but it's the basis of most political campaigns. Most of SARF's statements fall into this category.

[tibbs87]

Sadly SARF has been lost to decades of right wing press indoctrination. There’s no saving them.

Enough of the blame game on 'political indoctrination' as it happens on all sides of the political sphere - let's stick to aviation shall we...