Phasing out VOR's

[Pass your message]

Excuse my apparent ignorance. A pilot friend of mine told me last night that VOR's are being phased out in two or three years. and here I am doing my IMC! Is this right, what will replace them , will LHR still stack over LAM ( and therefore my house)?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Isn't it rather the NDB's that are being phased out?
Over here, we got a couple of new VOR's over the last decades (FLO was the latest, if memory serves), but only fewer and fewer NDB's (WW desactivated a year or two ago, BRUNO longer).

[BackPacker]

I know en-route NDBs are phased out. Maybe your friend is confusing those with VORs?

[Pass your message]

I kind of hope my friend is confused as I really enjoy VOR flying.

[Vino Collapso]

Most of the VOR's in the UK are owned and operated by NATS. They are 1960's technology for which spare parts are no longer available and any repairs have to be constructed from scratch.

Advances in navigation have rendered many ground based facilities as unnecessary. NATS had planned to turn off the vast majority of UK VOR's by 2015 but that timescale appears to be slipping (as always happens with NATS target dates). But they will be withdrawn in the next several years.

[mcgoo]

http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Consultations%20CAA%20DAP/NATMAC%20Consultative%20NATS%20plans%20for%20rationalisation %20of%20VOR%20Aug%202009.pdf

[Fuji Abound]

For some reason it just leaves me wondering how robust the gps system is in the event of a period of extreme solar activity and how the system would cope during a period of outage.

Inertial navigation and radar vectoring will presumably save the day but some ga pilots could be struggling.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I went to a lecture the other day by an American designer of GNSS approaches who admitted they'd had problems in the USA with GPS jammers around major airports that passed close to major roads. Many american truckers are using GPS jammers to stop themselves being tracked.

I just looked on eBay - well under 20 quid for a GPS jammer from Hong Kong !

The same lecturer told us that it's fairly straightforward to build a GPS jammer with a 50nm range.


So, me, I like the option of ILS, VOR and even NDB approaches. The more options, the more chance that something hasn't been mucked about by some arsehole who doesn't care about anybody else so long as he can avoid his truck being tracked. (Or does care, and wants to cause trouble!).

G

N.B. The IMC also qualifies you to fly GNSS approaches using a panel mounted GPS. They're becoming more common in the UK and are almost universal in North America. Yes, I know you can't use your IMC in North America.

[Whopity]

The same lecturer told us that it's fairly straightforward to build a GPS jammer with a 50nm range.I'd love to see a technical explanation of how this can be done together with some evidence that such a thing can actually work. It is not straightforward to jam spread spectrum transmissions.

[Gomrath]

See this
GPS jamming: No jam tomorrow | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/18304246)

[thcrozier]

I miss the Four Course Range. That continuous tone was so soothing....

Low-frequency radio range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_radio_range)

In my previous life....

[Whopity]

See this
GPS jamming: No jam tomorrow | The EconomistI said a technical explanation, not a load of inaccurate journalistic hype. It is easy to knock out or desensitise a GPS receiver within a few feet of you by simply making the active antenna switch off. Jamming the "system" and more distant receivers is a totally different issue, which is why the military keep trying! The "weak" GPS transmitters are actually 16 times more powerful than the average satellite TV transmitter.

[mad_jock]

I had put a diagram up of the circuit, maybe a bit silly.

Just a simple google search will pull up a raft of hits on designs. They are also linked in to jamming mobile phones.

They are good for about 1000ft on a 45mm antenna. I doubt it would have the same effect on an aircraft because the hull would be shielding the aircraft antenna. But low down or with a hill next to the approach it could get you I suppose. If they could get line of sight to the top of the aircraft.

There used to be one on the Isle of White in the solent that used to sometimes kick in but it never really affected aircraft on approach as we were on vectors by that point. I presumed it was someone yacht racing in the solent trying to stuff up other racers and not anyone out trying to get aircraft.

[A and C]

The NDB's are disappearing and we are soon to see the same happening to the VOR's but it seems to me that the future is bleak for GA with IFR navigation all being done by GPS.

Some might say that with the European GPS system we have two systems available however both are easy to attack and a ground based navigation system is required so as most ILS systems have a DME attached it would seem like a good idea to do as the airlines have and mix DME data into the navigation plot. Most modern FMC system have this GPS, DME mix ( the B737 NG has five DME's three of them permanently attached to the FMC).

It would seem to me that the answer is for someone to make a DME/GPS interface that can feed the multi DME position into the aircrafts GPS unit, the pilot would navigate in exactly the same way as when using a GPS the only difference being that the position of the aircraft is determined by a mix of GPS & or DME data. The loss of GPS or DME data would not effect the navigation in any way.

OH !! It slipped my mind such a unit was available to the GA pilot but we were all to obsessed with the new and cheap GPS units to see the advantages and robustness of the multi-sensor navigation system, NARCO remember them? Made a thing called the STARNAV it had within the box GPS, VOR & ILS but also connected to DME and used a mix of GPS, VOR & DME to fix the aircrafts position and you could also feed a remote LORAN into the mix!

It would seem to me to be time to revisit the NARCO STARNAV concept to provide a more robust GA navigation system, it should not be to hard to do, I would think that a remote double DME unit could feed position data into the curent crop of GPS units via the data ports and most of us would not even know it would be fitted!

[Pace]

But we already have a sparse scattering of VORs? Take an IFR flight over Europe and how many existing intersections /waypoints sit on top of a VOR?
I can well remember flying a 1991 Citation 2 with glass from Nice to gatwick! the screens went black. It took a few hundred miles before we managed to get everything up and running.
I was given direct to a VOR some 200 nm away missing out scores of VOR less intersections.
I cannot see a time where VOR/DME will go completely especially in terminal areas but we already have a situation where they are more sparse.

Pace

[IO540]

I was given direct to a VOR some 200 nm away

Did you actually receive that VOR from 200nm?

[Pace]

Not quite but soon after ;) Amazing how far you pick up indications at FL370

Pace

[mad_jock]

I reckon you would have to be above 280 to get anything. using 1.25x sqr(alt difference)

well outside the DOC though.

Must of been fun though an hour on standby instruments I have only had the screens go black after we had finished the star on vectors.

[IO540]

The sqr() formula fails for long distances because the omnidirectional pattern square law attenuation takes over the earth's surface curvature as the dominating factor.

I don't think you will pick up a VOR at 200nm, with the flag not showing, on a properly calibrated VOR receiver.

Same with DME.

I have asked old airline pilots how they used to do it, pre-RNAV. They used to fly headings. It worked because it is kind of hard to miss Spain when flying say 190 (or whatever it is) from the UK :) Then they would pick up a VOR somewhere... But you can't do that anymore. Any apparent loss of precision nav today, and ATC are onto you.

There are now of the shelf inertial nav (fibre optic gyro) products which are directly usable with any moving map device that has an NMEA input, but I cannot see anything appearing for less than £20k, and that is a "portable" unit. A certified unit would be a lot more.

[Pace]

10540

Practically you will take a heading and wait for the thing to come in then rectify the course but we were given a direct to the VOR which was 200 NM away after explaining the black screen problem.
It must have been about 170 NM from memory when the thing started coming alive.
I cannot remember precisely as I was throttling the first officer at the time who had caused the problem :E not fun at night loosing the screens especially with all the STARS into Gatwick ahead.

Pace

[mad_jock]

The flags do go out at long distances. You get more range with a EFIS system than you do with an old unit which I presume pace was on with his standby instrument but then again it may only be servo driven from the feed to the EFIS.

DME can be got stupid distances away depending on what the transmitter function is.

ie if its an ILS DME its got bugger all range but the likes of St Abbs you can pick up crossing the channel at FL220 on the east coast. St Abbs does seem to be strange one though, I don't know what it pumps out but you can always get it. MAN also seems to be a bit of beast.

The wagging of headings still goes on occasionally when spelling and finger trouble start occurring. Its surprising how actuate it is. Its not unusual to be within a couple of degrees and under 5 while the box of tricks has been beaten into submission. And that's without a moving map.

[tdbristol]

I remember seeing an EASA presentation a while ago that the long term plan in Europe was that the only navaids were eventually going to be:
- GPS
- DME/DME
- ILS & DME

So the idea was to phase out VORs and NDBs completely in Europe, IIRC in 10-15 years

[Captain Smithy]

ENR NDBs are gone and buried but the little 50 Watt ones (locators) are still in widespread use on/near airfields. Still useful IMO but will probably go within the next decade or so I suspect. Or such is the plan.

VORs are getting phased out as spares for the old Racal Mk IIs that NATS have all over the place are long extinct and so keeping them running is becoming increasingly difficult, hence the move to decommission a large number of them (in order to free up spares), those will probably go over the next decade too however. IIRC the grand plan is to, over the next decade, move to GPS/DME Nav.

Interesting times, but I await with interest to see what effect these tecnological developments will have on private GA. Mode S anyone? :\

Smithy

[mad_jock]

I hope they do keep airfield locator NDB's they are extremely useful for situational awareness. You don't realise how much you use them until you fly somewhere that doesn't have something on the field be it VOR or NDB.

Have they killed off NGY yet?

[chubbychopper]

I'm just wondering what Pace's co-pilot could have done to make ALL of the screens go blank in flight. I guess he must have done something pretty awful if it was not possible to get them restored in a short space of time.

I guess also that it must have been a VERY expensive mistake if no easy/quick fix was possible....please elaborate.

[BillieBob]

ENR NDBs are gone and buried You mean like HEN, WCO, WHI, etc?

[wsmempson]

I think that WOD goes in the next six months, shortly to be followed by the ones you mention....

Incidentally, if you fly a practice hold at WCO (orientated to mimick the hold at Cranfield) you may find your middle marker beacon going off; clearly this is on the same electrical circuit as the WCO beacon and someone forgot to switch it off when the field was decommissioned.

[Pace]

ChubbyChopper

You dont think I am going to play that game do you? ;)

If you really want to know we were watching a movie on the screens at the time!
Think it was "death at 30000 feet".
The movie was flickering so the co took off his shoe and hit the unit.
The result?? Black screens and the loss of a good movie :E

Pace

[chubbychopper]

Pace,

Was simply interested because it is extremely rare to lose all screens, and prior to you mentioning it I have never heard of such an occurrence except in cases where all electric generation has been lost, and then only after depletion of battery power.

I do however wish we could get movies on our screens. We have to move back to the cabin for that creature comfort - and that possibility only arises on empty legs!

[mad_jock]

Don't know turning the avionics switches off might cause the effect. GAwd only knows how long it would take for the AHARS to sort its life out afterwards and stop giving you multiple comparator errors.

[Pace]

For certain reasons and because of the CP in question I dont want to go into detail but MD is in the right direction but happily the whole thing did sort itself out worst scenario conventional flying which suits me :ok:

Pace:ok:

[deefer dog]

I'm back on the Citation now for a while (Bravo) and can't for the life of me think what a co-pilot could possibly reach that would cause the screens to go blank. There is NOTHING on his side that I can see that would cause such a problem. Everything related to ac and alectrics are on my side.

@Pace, it seems you don't want to drop your co-pilot in the sh1t (which i completely understand and admire), but please, for my peace of mind tell me what I should "look out for" to stop a brand new 200 hr co-pilot from doing the same. Please don't mention any names, but give me an idea what I should do to prevent such a serious incident happening, as I would really not want to be fishing around in the dark trying to sort out a problem that someone here could help me avoid. Many thanks for any flight safety advise.

[Pace]

Deefer dog

will pm you

[cessnapete]

Recent CAA letter states an ADF fit in an aircraft will no longer be required for IFR flights. ANO change by December.