PFA Aircraft comparison spreadsheet

[BobD]

I am interested in either the outright purchase, or a share in a PFA Aircraft, and wonder if anyone has done a comparison spreadsheet of the aircraft available, before I start compiling one of my own. Having done a search in the forum, and on the web, I am looking for something similar to this (but for PFA Aircraft only):

http://www.arising.com.au/aviation/AircraftComparison.htm

Any suggestions of suitable aircraft would also be welcome. I guess I am looking for a 2/4 seater capable of carrying two adults, light baggage, approx 3-4 hrs endurance, 100+ kts.

TIA

[NigelOnDraft]

Bob...

Firstly the PFA is no more and now the LAA ;) Website (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/)

I don't know of a comparable spreadsheet, but what's wrong with the one you link to as a starter? When you find types that look interesting, check whether they are LAA types here.

For details on a type look at the TADS via Link (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/aircraftList.html), or just scroll through this list (and the Vintage aircraft one).

Questions I'd add to you list would be:
Aerobatic? Taildragger or Nosewheel? Short field capable? Decent even "high" performance e.g. RV, or more sedate / cheaper e.g. Rotax types?

Your <<for a 2/4 seater capable of carrying two adults>> is rather broad. There are numerous 2 seaters fitting the bill, but 4 seaters are few in number, and a different league in terms of costs etc.

Any more questions ask away here, and hopefully will get answered. I'm biased and would tend to steer people towards the RV family ;) But they are at the higher performance / pricey end of LAA arena.

NoD

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are various tables on the LAA (formerly known as PFA) website, but nothing that quite does what you're describing.

I'd recommend spending £6 or whatever it currently costs on the World Directory of Leisure Aviaition - available from the usual shops and suppliers, which is the nearest the little aeroplane world has to Janes, as well as being vastly cheaper!

As for meeting your spec, the aeroplane on the LAA fleet that first comes to mind would be a Jabiru J400. Several of the Vans aircraft will also do this, but are somewhat expensive.

G

[Rod1]

BobD

I can work with the spec, but you missed off one bit point, what is the budget? I can think of aircraft ranging from £20k ish to £110k. Also are you thinking of building or are you buying a complete aircraft? Plan or kit?

Rod1

[BobD]

Thanks for the comments guys.

I am aware of the LAA Website, and the TADS link, but I to save me trawling through all the types, and compiling a comparison spreadsheet, I was hoping someone had alrady done it. Hoping to prevent 're-inventing the wheel' (or just plain lazy) I guess. :)

Preference at my experience level would be for a nosewheel, not too concerned with short field capability, moderate performance, probabaly rotax powered.

Good suggestion about World Directory of Leisure Aviaition. Someone bought me Jane's Aircraft Recognition Guide for my birthday, but it doesn't really cover the aircraft I am interested in

Budget I guess is £20-30K, which could get me an outright purchase on an older aircraft, or a share in a more expensve one. I am looking for an already built aircraft, not a kit.

I have been looking at a Europa, and a Zenair, but wanted to open up the options a little, hence the requirement for a comparison spreadsheet.

BobD

[Zulu Alpha]

If you haven't operated an LAA aircraft before then I would suggest getting a share.
That will allow you to see what's involved. For your 20-30K you should get a share in an RV. This should also be easily to sell if you should decide that you want to go in a different direction (aerobatics, vintage, open cockpit etc).

If you want to do quite a bit of touring then I would suggest that 120kts + should be a requirement and also a fairly high wing loading as this will reduce the bouncing around from turbulence.

Some of the very efficient LAA aircraft do achieve this with very low wing loadings and are not so comfortable in turbulence.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think if I was spending that much money, I'd spend days, probably weeks, on pulling together my own information!

I also, incidentally, agree that starting with a share is not a bad idea if you are new to ownership, or the LAA.

G

[Rod1]

I think a good Europa may stretch your budget a bit. Have a look at Zenair and Jabiru.

Rod1

[Dan the weegie]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the assertion that if you have never owned a Permit aircraft before it's sensible to buy a share. A share in any aircraft comes with it's problems, primarily that you are sharing it with other people which always leads to mostly small but sometimes large conflicts of interest. It's not that unheard of for people in syndicates to fall out.

That said if you have never owned any aircraft then a share is definitely a low risk way of getting to know the pitfalls of aircraft ownership. Just be prepared for a little bit of politics and quite a lot of over protectiveness of "the baby" when you join the syndicate.

There are plenty of people and companies willing to help with permit aircraft so don't let lack of knowledge put you off but definitely do your homework, get to know your maintenance people and your inspector. There's a good chance they will already know of local planes that may well be a good purchase. Go to a local strut meeting, I can't encourage people to do this enough, almost always a lovely bunch of people who are really into flying and fixing planes :).
My recommendation to anyone buying an aircraft who isn't sure is as follows:)
1. Always buy something below your budget, not AT your budget because running a plane is expensive and it's not unusual for people to let a plane go U/S because they can't afford a replacement part :) This is a spiral descent into dead plane territory.
2. Buy something that is fairly popular, a VANs, SportCruiser,Cub etc., for two reasons firstly because parts are much easier to come by and secondly because it will almost certainly be easier to shift on than something that is unbelievably rare.
3. Bells and whistles are brilliant but the more kit it has, the more stuff can and will go wrong :) Buying something simple will make the learning process much more straightforward.
4. Try lots of different types, get to know the LAA guys near you and go look at lots of aircraft just to get a feel for them, you'll be surprised at some things you might find out.
5. Opinions are like arr-soles, there's an awful lot of them about and many of them are full of she-it :D.
6. Tailwheels are better, it's that simple ;)

[Maoraigh1]

"A share in any aircraft comes with it's problems, primarily that you are sharing it with other people which always leads to mostly small but sometimes large conflicts of interest."
I've been a member of the same group (6 - was once 8) for almost 22 years. You are the most important one to control whether the conflicts are small or become large. You could lose many of the benefits of being on a permit if problems have to be handled on your own - or possibly passed to a repair organisation. (e.g. in July, a cracked exhaust on a strip away from our home airfield and hangar.)

[Rod1]

BobD
You are about 60 miles from me. If you want to meet up I can talk you through how the LAA system works, show you some LAA aircraft and maybe even give you a ride in a Rotax powered machine.

Rod1

[BobD]

Rod, Thanks for the offer, I'll PM you to arrange a meet.

I have had a couple of flights in a Europa, and am waiting for one in a Zenair (its tech at the moment).

At present, I hire and fly out of Gamston Retford (C150, PA-28, TB9). I am planning a trip to Netherthorpe, to get a bit of short field practise with an Instructor, and to see what's available at that airfield.

One thing I have noticed in all the advertisements, is that there appears to be a shortage of shares available 'up north', most of the shares (and aircraft) for sale appear to be in the south of the country.

[Rod1]

There are generally less shares in the north midlands, but the cost of operation is less than south of Watford so there are a lot of sole owners. You are likely to find a number of shares at Netherthorpe, but most will be TW. I would not necessarily see this as a problem as 5 hours conversion will get you up to speed and with multiple grass runways you would be in a “friendly” TW environment.

Rod1