Logging time as instructor?

[G_STRING]

I'm really not sure on the following, so hope someone can offer some advice:

Can you log instructor time (in some sort of supervisory capacity), If you are flying in command on the R/H seat with a qualified pilot who cannot exercise the priviledges of their licence due to having no current medical?

Or, do you just log the flight as P1 with nothing in the instructor column?

Thanks

[Whopity]

ANO Art 79:(3) The information recorded in accordance with paragraph (2) must include:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder of the log book embarked on and
disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight
when the holder was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted,
including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) information about any test or examination undertaken by the holder of the log
book whilst in flight.Capacity relates to PIC etc; there is no specific requirement to log "instructional time" in a separate column, though it is a good idea to do so. You can enter what ever you like, you must know if you are acting as an instructor or not. Assuming of course that you are an instructor!

[Pilot DAR]

I'm sure that the privilege to log time as an instructor begins with being qualified as an instructor. If you are an instructor, then you know your privileges. If you are not an instructor, then you cannot act or log time as one.

If the other person has lost their medical, they cannot be a "qualified" pilot, so if you are qualified on that type of aircraft, you log as PIC, because they are not, and cannot log the time. Make sure that you are actually prepared and skilled to fly and land from the seat you're in if you have to, however unfortunate, that person lost their medical for a reason.

You may find that when you dig deeper into the regs, you're not entitled to allow the other person to fly the aircraft at all, unless you are an instructor, because then you are giving instruction, which you are to entitled to do. I was accused of this, in exactly this situation by the authority some time ago. They gave me a warning, but otherwise did nothing.

If you are flying as PIC, then you are. Be sure you are insured and entitled to fly that aircraft, because the other person is not. If you're not insured, and they are not entitled to fly, the aircraft is flying uninsured, and you're flying it.

Though not likely an issue, be sure the aircraft type permits the PIC to fly from the "other" seat. A few actually specify the PIC must be it a particular seat.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure that the privilege to log time as an instructor begins with being qualified as an instructor. If you are an instructor, then you know your privileges.

I can't honestly say that this issue was covered in my recent (and very well run) instructors course - so I think it's a fair question.


If you are not an instructor, then you cannot act or log time as one.

You can't log it. Nothing to stop you talking about how to fly the aeroplane - for example - which is arguably acting as an instructor.

If the other person has lost their medical, they cannot be a "qualified" pilot, so if you are qualified on that type of aircraft, you log as PIC, because they are not, and cannot log the time.
Surely somebody who is not a qualified pilot can log time as student?

Make sure that you are actually prepared and skilled to fly and land from the seat you're in if you have to, however unfortunate, that person lost their medical for a reason.
Which certainly comes back to being an instructor.

You may find that when you dig deeper into the regs, you're not entitled to allow the other person to fly the aircraft at all, unless you are an instructor, because then you are giving instruction, which you are to entitled to do.
Certainly here in Britain, this is not true. You are not unless an instructor entitled to give loggable instruction, but you are entitled - whilst retaining all of the responsibilities of Captain - to let a passenger handle the controls. Sooner or later you probably must, even if it's just the intercom volume control or an air vent.


I was accused of this, in exactly this situation by the authority some time ago. They gave me a warning, but otherwise did nothing.
Probably because they hadn't a leg to stand on unless you were taking money or telling somebody to log it.

If you are flying as PIC, then you are. Be sure you are insured and entitled to fly that aircraft, because the other person is not. If you're not insured, and they are not entitled to fly, the aircraft is flying uninsured, and you're flying it.
And flying uninsured is definitely illegal in Britain.

Though not likely an issue, be sure the aircraft type permits the PIC to fly from the "other" seat. A few actually specify the PIC must be it a particular seat.
Agreed.

G

[G_STRING]

Hello, and thank you for the replies.

To just clarify the situation, I am an instructor, but quite a new one, (still restricted, only qualified this year), so am fine to fly from the right hand seat.

The situation I have is that I occasionally fly with a chap who has lost his medical, so cannot fly on his own. I know that he could fly with anyone with a licence, but prefers to fly with me because of the fact that he can sit left seat, as opposed to right seat, and it is perfectly legal for him to handle the controls with me present. (He does most or all of the flying).

With this person, I don't give instruction as such, (say like I would if he were a student), but I do act as safety pilot, in a supervisory capacity.

At the moment, I log the time as PIC, without putting anything in the instructor column. What I need to know is, should I put anything there, or is it fine as it is?

Thanks

[neilr]

My voew on this ... He is flying under your license as he has none of his own - so you are entitled to log it as intsructional time - your choice whether do so or not

[Whopity]

You are an instructor, he is a student, and can log the flight as dual instruction. What you put in the Instructor column is your choice.

As a FI(R) you should have a supervising instructor who is there to answer such questions.
He is flying under your license as he has none of his ownA student never flies on the Instructor's Licence, only in accordance with the exemption granted in Article 53

[G_STRING]

Whoppity

Thanks for reply. Unfortunately, the CFI doesn't know the answer to this one either, he says it's an unusual situation.

If, as you say I can log the time as instruction, what could I put in? Obviously not stuff like ex4 or ex6, as the guy concerned is an experienced pilot, who has been unfortunate enough to lose his medical.

We nearly always fly cross country, so could I log it as as ex18, or would that be taking the mick, given that the guy has probably flown hundreds of NMs on his own, without the need of an instructor, (before he lost his medical obviously).

I just want to do the correct thing. Obviously it would be nice to log it as instructional, but I don't want to do that if it is either dodgy or unethical

Thanks again

[BillieBob]

According to JAR-FCL 1.001, the definition of 'Dual instruction time' is:

Flight time or instrument ground time during which a person is receiving flight instruction from a properly authorised instructor.

Since, by your own admission, the other pilot is not receiving instruction and you, although the PIC, are in practice acting only as a safety pilot, the flight time is not dual instruction time. The flights could equally well take place with a pilot other than an FI as PIC - there is nothing to prevent any pilot acting as PIC from the RHS so long as he can reach all of the controls and provided that there is no restriction in the POH. Furthermore, it is difficult to see how it might be thought reasonable to count such time (during which no instruction has been given) towards the 100 hours of flight instruction required to remove the restriction from your FI rating.

In the final analysis, however, it is entirely up to you what you record in your logbook and up to the Authority to determine that any time claimed towards the requirements for issue of a licence or rating is valid.

[Heston]

Hmmm...
well he's not qualified as he has no medical, so you can't be acting as safety pilot.
Are you being paid? If not then you are PIC and he is a passenger. If you are being paid then its instructing (you could log it as Ex 3 if you wish).

H

[madlandrover]

Not quite that simple - it's perfectly possible to instruct without being paid :}

As for exercise numbers it's not necessarily relevant. The "standard" exercise numbers reflect flights in various courses, eg PPL/NPPL for Ex 1-19, IMCR for 19A-19D, aeros courses for 21, etc. As the flights you're doing aren't part of a course and won't count towards a licence for him then you can fill the remarks column as you wish. Of course assuming you are actually instructing - back to the crux of the problem. Are you delivering instruction, in which case you are P1 and he is P/UT, or are you just conducting flights, in which case you are P1.

[topoverhaul]

It is perfectly possible for a pilot to fly as P1 with an OSL medical rating. The Operational Safety Pilot Limitation means that the pilot is still P1 but must be accompanied by another qualified pilot, not necessarily an instructor. This briefing sheet refers and you will note that the safety pilot can not log any time unless they are required to take over control.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_SafetyPilotInformationSheetToPilotWithOSL.pdf

[Heston]

Indeed, but that's not the situation as described by the OP - OSL is a limitation applied to the medical certificate and the question related to someone without a medical at all (I believe).

I would have thought that the school, club or owner's insurance would have some relevance too.

Of course instructing can be unpaid - but if you are getting paid then surely it must count as instruction?

H

[athonite]

This is really simple, if the other pilot has no medical, you are P1. As to instruction, if you are a FI or FIR, log it as instruction. As a FI(QFI) I always log any flight as instruction, if there is anyone else in the aircraft to keep the CAA happy, including my young children and mrs athonite, only exception is when in the past I have dropped parachutists, partly because there not there for the whole flight and the P2 seat is removed!

[puntosaurus]

Are you working under an AOC ? If not I think you have to log it as instruction, otherwise you open another can of worms in relation to public transport.

[madlandrover]

As a FI(QFI) I always log any flight as instruction, if there is anyone else in the aircraft to keep the CAA happy, including my young children and mrs athonite

That may not keep the CAA happy - what instruction was being delivered, was the aircraft appropriately insured, etc...

[S-Works]

As a FI(QFI) I always log any flight as instruction, if there is anyone else in the aircraft to keep the CAA happy, including my young children and mrs athonite, only exception is when in the past I have dropped parachutists, partly because there not there for the whole flight and the P2 seat is removed!

Did I miss April 1st?

[athonite]

To Madlandrover

The CAA are rarely happy, but it is legal, and of course the documents, records, insurance, would be in place, otherwise it wouldn't be an instructional flight. Incidently I don't ever instruct or log it as instruction when there are passengers in the back not that you can't I just don't agree with doing so.

Just wondering if someone is going to argue that if say a child cant reach the rudder pedals it can't be instructional flight.

What is more concerning is 'trail' lessons operated as pleasure flights with passengers in the back, which is questionable whether it should require an AOC, but the CAA have turned a blind eye to that for years!

[mad_jock]

I always used to work on.

If you are flying in accordance with normal school guidlines ie

1.public cat aircraft
2. licensed airport (although that doesn't hold true now)
3. Under the oversight of a FTO
4. the person didn't have a license

You could log instructor with any person be they under 14 or over 100.

If the person did have a license you could log it in anything as long as I had access to the controls and I was legal to instruct on it in the particualr conditions. ie not if we went IMC then I would be PIC unless they held a IMC/IR and then they would log PIC or a tail dragger.

If it was a check ride for school reasons I used to let them log it as PIC. It seemed to remove a whole heap of animosity and pilots were more likely to go up for an hour with an instructor occassionally thus improving general safety. They didn't seem to begrudge paying for my time but the PIC bit seemed to raise folks hackles.

These days I try not to log it in anything unless the person needs a 1 hour or its a proper lesson with an instructor because it causes issues with FTL's .

[BillieBob]

Just wondering if someone is going to argue that if say a child cant reach the rudder pedals it can't be instructional flight.I can recall a number of students who might just have well been unable to reach the rudder pedals for all the use they made of them!

[mrmum]

What is more concerning is 'trail' lessons operated as pleasure flights with passengers in the back, which is questionable whether it should require an AOC, but the CAA have turned a blind eye to that for years!
It's not really questionable, the CAA have taken a considered position on the issue, rather than turned a blind-eye and published guidance on the matter.
GASIL 1 of 2002
Trial Lessons
Some years ago we published an article on trial lessons in this magazine. In the light of apparent recent misunderstandings of the position, it has been suggested that we print it again, so we reproduce it here.
First of all there is no such thing in law as a “trial lesson” as opposed to any other sort of flying lesson. A “trial lesson” is simply a first lesson which may or may not be followed by subsequent lessons. It follows that it is an instructional flight and should be conducted as such; and an abbreviated exercise such as “effects of controls” or “straight and level” should be taught. If no instruction is given and the “student” who paid for the flight is merely a passenger, the flight must be classed as public transport.
Secondly, there is nothing in law to prevent the carriage of non-paying passengers on an instructional flight, apart, of course, from solo flights by a student pilot. If any passenger has paid to be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC (aircraft operators certificate).
Some years ago, the CAA’s Operations Advisory Committee considered this subject, and concluded that there were occasions where the carriage of non-paying passengers would be beneficial; for instance, fellow students observing a navigational exercise. Similarly, a husband, wife, fiancé(e) or other close relative could be considered to be closely connected with the outcome of the “trial lesson”, and therefore would benefit from being a non-paying passenger.
To summarise:
a. A “trial lesson” is an instructional flight and should be conducted as such.
b. Non-paying passengers may legally be carried on such a flight.
c. It may be considered good practice to carry only non-paying passengers who should derive some benefit from his or her carriage on the flight.

[athonite]

Thanks MrMum

I must have missed that one, that clarifies the position.

I suppose it's down to the individual instructor and the insurance liability. I once did a 'trial lesson/air experianceflight/intoductory flying lesson' whatever you call it with a consultant surgeon and his two young children, and on advice of my solicitor, and tried to avoid them thereafter on the basis that there was unlikely insufficient insurance, in place, worse scenario three critally injured occupants of the aircraft. Food for thought.

[Mavis Enderby]

I agree with posts #4 and #10, key here is the medical.
If the person simply hasn’t got around to renewing their medical then they arguably could be fit to fly. It could then be considered an instructional flight, the poster books P1 and instructional time. The student Put.
On the other hand if the person’s medical has been revoked. Then it has been proven that they are unfit to fly. The ANO is quite clear. That person cannot act as crew. The person is then a passenger and cannot book any time. The poster then books P1 but not any instructional time.
Who owns the aircraft? Is money involved? An owner may employ the services of a commercial pilot to fly them in a private flight. Other than that if money is involved I think it going to be an AOC job.

[Whopity]

Then it has been proven that they are unfit to fly. The ANO is quite clear. That person cannot act as crew.Except in accordance with Article 53, if they are receiving flight instructionwithout being the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order, if the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied.

[Pull what]

Or, do you just log the flight as P1 with nothing in the instructor column?If you are giving instruction it is an instructional flight and should be logged as such in your log book because your log book is a record of your personel flying experience.