do i need to worry about landing at samos airport

[swivelhips]

i have flown in to samos airport twice in the past 6 weeks, on each occasion the landings where aborted, the first time the pilot made 2 attempts to land, conditions a biy windy but a beautiful sunny day, the second occasion it was a flight with company Tor Air from gatwick airport in england, it was a very old 737, we were delayed for 11hours whilst a new battery was fitted, we eventually took off at17 50 hours, the cabin crew imformed us that the closing time for samos airport was 21 00hours but they were staying open to welcome us, upto this point the pilot hadnt given us any imformation about the journey, how long it would take us etc, the flight was a comfortable one,nice meal, free drinks offered to us because of the delay, the seat belt sign is illuminated, there is a grunt from the front of the plane, we are imformed by the cabin crew we are about to land, down down down we go tossing and turning, i had already briefed the passengers around me about my previous experience, then the roar of the engines tells me that we are about to go up up up, the lady next to me was clinging onto my arm as if her life depended on it, sounding mr out for reassurance that everything was ok and were we heading for Rhodes airport, because we had kept a fairly sraight path i told probably yes which was then comfirmed by the cabin crew, not the pilot who we later found out couldnt speak a word of english, in the ladys eyes next to me i was her hero . the reason i am telling you this tale is that i went back to samos to see if i could rent a property there as i fell in love with the island, but because of my experiences they are trying to make me change my mind and find a property somewhere else. i am hoping that somebody out there can reassure them that samos airport is a safe place to fly into.

[Denti]

In my company samos is put into the "C" category meaning it is a difficult airport. It is commanders landing only and they have to do a training flight first before they allowed there with a normal crew composition. Additionally the company decided that night operation is not allowed and no A321 and A330 may be dispatched there, only smaller aircraft like boeing 737 and A319/A320. All in all kinda demanding which can explain a much higher than normal missed approach rate.

[jabird]

Swivelhips, I think you need to separate out the difference between the airport, which does have a short runway, and the airline, which appears to be responsible for most of the problems you allege.

However, English is the language of international aviation, all pilots must speak it.

[adfly]

Agreed jabird, I haven't heard anything about Thomson, Thomas Cook, Monarch having the same series of problems and they face the same runway and surroundings as Tor Air do on arrival!

[G-AZUK]

this will give you an idea of how it should look on a windless day http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXzPTE9pdCQ

The Meltemi winds pick up mid afternoon so any arrival after about 1500L is likely to be affected. I have sat at Pythagorion and watched an unnamed German 757 operator have two attempts at 09 followed by a g/a on 27 followed by a landing.
I think the problems you mention with Tor Air were probably exacerbated by the communication (lack of) from the F/D. There isnt much choice of carrier to SMI, but there is a choice.

[BlueTui]

I wouldnt let the flight put you off this wonderful island. The lack of operators is what adds to it's charm- no high rise hotel blocks or mass. Tourism like some other islands in Europe.

Landing at Samos is perfectly safe I've flow countless times to Samos and I'm still here. I wouldn't worry.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Swilvelhips... Best to sit quietly rather than "brief" everyone around you because you honestly don't know what's happening. The pilot must have spoken sufficient English for aviation purposes.

[PAXboy]

Thank you G-AZUK. The captions (whoever put them on) are illuminating to say the least. Also the wind information you give.

[Load Toad]

I wonder if the pilot could type English to the high standard of the OP?

[Nicholas49]

Swivelhips: please learn to use the full stop at the end of a sentence. A comma does not serve the same purpose as a full stop. And start a new sentence with a capital letter. I had to read your post about three times. It really does make life easier. :ok:

And as Load Toad says, I dare say your pilot's written English is better than yours.

[easyflyer83]

I'm not going to make judgement too much as I weren't there. It's always nice to hear from the flightdeck in such situations but communicating is always at the bottom of the priority list. That is ultimately the safest way of doing things. Work load must have been high in the flightdeck. As cabin crew, the crew in the cabin could/should communicate very well with the passengers. It doesn't always need a detailed response as to the in's and outs to reassure passengers and if there was any 'real' problem it will have been communicated to them from the pilots. As part of the crew, a PA from the cabin crew would be perfectly reasonable even if a flightdeck PA is more desirable.

The pilots will have been able to speak English without a doubt. English language is a must as it's the international language for aviation. Also, especially if the cabin crew are British (not sure with Tor Air) then the ability to speak English will have been a must otherwise CRM (Crew Resource Management) would be straight out of the window.

And finally, I mean this in the nicest possible way, don't start "briefing" passengers. It can only spread unnecessary panic in the cabin at worst and misinformation at best. And ultimately, it could lead to you looking stupid if you got things wrong.

[Frank Williams]

As a passenger on the same flight I can vouch for the fact that the whole thing was extremely scary so one or two of these replies seem to me to be just a little patronising: grammar is hardly the issue here.

Maybe I could provide further information and ask another question of any airline pilots who might be able to help. We came in to land at approximately 23:30 with very strong winds from the north. (I have been unable so far to establish the actual strength.) I discoverd afterwards that we came in from the east so that when the pilot aborted we were heading west directly towards the surrounding hills. I assume it was this that required the pilot to go into a very steep ascent and bank sharply to the left at the same time. I should like to know, therefore, how often do aircraft actually land from the east and take off to the west in very strong northerly winds? And is there a recommended maximum wind speed?

[Piltdown Man]

It appears that you have been flown by pilots who prefer to throw away a landing rather than possibly accept one from an unacceptable approach. It says a lot about their attitude to flying. As for a go-around, you apply all the power you have and then follow the appropriate procedure. For Samos, it appears that that a go-around would be followed by a turn to the south as soon as practical, remaining visual with terrain. I also notice the following advice on an approach plate. It is self explanatory.

CAUTION: Moderate or severe turbulence may occur on final when North winds of 20-25 KT prevail.

As for a surface wind limit, that depends on the operators, their pilots, the status of the aircraft, the characteristics of the runway and so forth. Typically I'd expect something like 30-35 kts crosswind, up to 10 kts tailwind (but probably less than 5 kts with a runway of this length) but no overall wind limit. However, I reckon that a stiff wind from the North, but within landing crosswind limits, may make an approach so unstable that a landing may not even be attempted.

PM

[Rwy in Sight]

I have flown there either in turboprop or -once on an A319 about once a year since 2007. Most landings are from the west.

I am told it is tricky airport but this does not make it a dangerous one. On landings from the East there is procedure that is used by the Greek pilots and works quite well.

Going to an alternate; I have never seen it as a problem.

Rwy in Sight

[Irish_Avro_Driver]

"pax dubbed "hero" after briefing others they are heading to alternate airport after a non English speaking pilot, who tossed and turned the a/c on approach, aborted the landing at Samos"

[reclining now]

I was also a passenger on this flight. All I can say is - the pilot didn't speak to my knowledge during or after the incident so I can't comment on his use of English.
The cabin crew were urgently (ie running) ensuring all seats were upright and armrests down before belting themselves in at the mid emergency exit. The steward addressed the aircraft from the aisle, telling us to remain calm and this was normal for Samos - he did not go to the rear to use the PA.

[easyflyer83]

I was also a passenger on this flight. All I can say is - the pilot didn't speak to my knowledge during or after the incident so I can't comment on his use of English.
The cabin crew were urgently (ie running) ensuring all seats were upright and armrests down before belting themselves in at the mid emergency exit. The steward addressed the aircraft from the aisle, telling us to remain calm and this was normal for Samos - he did not go to the rear to use the PA.

After the go-around? Cabin Crew should have been in their seats and would have had little reason to be out of them during/after a go-around. A PA is normal procedure at most airlines however and takes into account that the workload on the flightdeck might be such that a PA from the Captain isn't possible.

But after a go around why would crew by ensuring armrests down etc etc when this would have been done before final approach? That just doesn't make sense.

[Load Toad]

Incidentally on Chinese airlines the flight deck never make announcements - the cabin crew only do it.
It's kind of disconcerting at first but I guess the attitude is 'Their job is to fly the 'plane chat to the passengers'.

[butter13fly]

As a flyer on the flight in question I am surprised that many of your correspondents do not acknowledge that the pilot was trying to land several hours after the airport normally shuts down, since, as I understand it, Samos has no facilities for night landing:bored:

[Rwy in Sight]

Who says it doesn't? The airport service are not staffed after the announced time but staff can remain or recalled from home should their services are needed.

Rwy in Sight

[Shack37]

But after a go around why would crew by ensuring armrests down etc etc when this would have been done before final approach? That just doesn't make sense.


The poster you have quoted did not mention the go-around so could be referring to the first approach before the go-around.

[Mariner9]

Quite a coincidence that so many first-time posters on this thread were all "on the same flight"' especially as the original poster did not state the date of the flight in question :rolleyes:

[TightSlot]

Couldn't agree more Mariner9 - a truly remarkable coincidence. I have been checking IP's for a couple of days, but there are no obvious clues.

I rather think this thread may be reaching the end of its' natural lifespan.

[reclining now]

For Easyflyer83
Have thought about your comments. The sequence was more likely
1 Crew announced preparation for landing - towards 2300 local - and checked seats upright, armrests down etc, went to seats.
2 First attempt unsuccessful, steward left seat and probably DID go to PA as engines were very loud. To reach PA it looked like he was running as it was downhill for him. Following announcement he returned to his seat pushing down at least the armrest for the empty aisle seat next to me and others on his way.
3 Second attempt unsuccessful - divert to Rhodes.

For Mariner9
Anyone on this flight would recognise it from the details here.

[easyflyer83]

There still should be no immediate requirement for the crew member to get out of his seat after a go around......not least to use the PA as every crew seat has a PA/Interphone.

[TightSlot]

Going back to the Original Question - "Do I Need To Worry About Landing At Samos Airport?" - the answer has to be "No".

Landing at any airport can be a challenge, under different circumstances: Samos has some challenging features but so do many others - Google "landings" at Saba, Gibraltar, Funchal, Skiathos, Mykonos, Lukla, Toncontin, Kai-tak, Courcheval or JFK Canarsie... and there are plenty of others. Some may surprise you - La Guardia on a busy day can be hard work for pilots: London City requires special procedures and virtually anywhere can be a challenge if neither weather nor ATC are co-operating.

Should you decide to Google as suggested, one thing becomes apparent very quickly: Many of the videos relate to "dangerous" incidents that are only "dangerous" in the perception of the person involved: To aviation professionals, they are routine if not ordinary. It is the perception of "Danger" that matters more than the actuality. For this reason, I believe that it was inappropriate and frankly insensitive for the OP to apparently "brief" surrounding passengers about previous experiences.

The people that fly you around are highly trained professionals who have no wish to die in a crash that they are responsible for: You either trust them, and fly, or don't trust them - in which case you should not fly.

Back to Samos - Below is another flight deck video of the landing (rather long, sorry - suggest you start about 5 minutes in), and beneath that, a view from the passenger cabin. Same approach and aircraft type - Looking forwards it all seems pretty under control: Look sideways and it's quite different. The wing wobbles and flexes, bits of it move up and down, there are bells in the cabin and thrust changes, Olive trees apparently at the end of the wing, a firm touchdown and people applauding a successful landing. Add a bit of weather and your own pre-existing concerns and the whole thing becomes something that it never was.

Landing at Samos - YouTube

TUI 737-700 landing at Samos september 7th 2009 - YouTube

[Shack37]

[COLOR=#008080]For this reason, I believe that it was inappropriate and frankly insensitive for the OP to apparently "brief" surrounding passengers about previous experiences.



I entirely agree with the above and would like to add that the ability to comment (or brief) in these circumstances is usually reduced to a variable intensity gasp.
Hammerfest and Tromso in November can be added to to your list.

[PAXboy]

For both those landing videos, I have teh same observation:

Holy Smoke!!! That has to be the definition of 'short finals'!!!!! Practically no time from the last turn out to ensure your line up is stable. Also, the strip looks short, and with a beautiful blue sea at the other end, there is a clear need to get the wheels talking to the tarmac in a meaningful way. :D

[butter13fly]

For those requesting the information, the flight in question was Torair OAI141 on 22/9/11 dep 06:20 which was delayed initially until 12:00 by the Greek traffic controllers strike, then for a further 5 hrs because the aircraft had a flat battery. Other regular passengers advised us that Samos was not equipped for night landings and shuts down at dusk. The aircraft was a 737 (I think) subcontracted from AURELA? airlines, a Lithuanian one?
With regard to the pilot, he may have been fluent in Aircraft English but the only sound we heard from him sounded like an oath in an unknown tongue as he aborted the landing. Observers on the ground, waiting at the airport, felt he was trying to land on a narrow but well lit lane parallel to the runway when he aborted.

[TightSlot]

How did you hear the "oath" - was it made on the PA system?
How could the observers on the ground see the aircraft and judge its' intentions if it was landing in darkness?
Do the observers have any kind of professional knowledge with which to make such a judgement, or were they just people watching from a car park?

[TightSlot]

Bueller Bueller Bueller - YouTube

[butter13fly]

In answer to moderators queries, The "oath" came over the PA system
The "Observers" were the holiday reps who had seen aircraft land in daylight for the previous few months, and would collectively have some idea of a normal landing proceedure.
The aircraft would surely have been visible with the normal aircraft landing lights and some lights from the passenger cabin.
It has also been reported by one or more reps that at a second attempt at landing the plane appeared to be heading for the control tower, certainly a long way different to the first attempt which was aiming at the lane parallel to the runway.

[TightSlot]

I think this has gone on long enough.