Night Flight with US Validation

[Final]

Hi,

has somebody experience with Night Flying in US with an US Validation of an JAA Private License (Day VFR only). Is it definitely legal having done the US Night Requirements with US Instructor (3 hours, 10 Landings, XC at night?)

Regards Final

[AdamFrisch]

SoCal will be along in a minute...

[B2N2]

Definitely NOT legal.
Consider this:
There is no night rating or night qualification in the USA. It does not exist.
Night flying is part of the PPL syllabus and cannot be " added" to anything.


Your US certificate is issued under 61.75 and is a validation based on your JAA PPL and carries all the restrictions of your JAA PPL. In your case DAY VFR.
You can add an US Instrument rating, Multi engine rating or sea plane rating to your US certificate. But night flying is not a rating in the US so it can not be added after training. there is no such thing as a night-endorsement like a complex or high performance or tail wheel endorsement.

To legally fly as PIC at night you would need the night qualification on your JAA PPL prior to applying for the validation.
You can only legally fly night with an instructor.

If a flight school in the US told you any different, they are wrong.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't believe B2N2 that you need to have had the JAR night qualification before applying for the validation - that validation only refers to the licence, not specific content.
So, if I understand the system correctly, you can add ratings onto your JAR licence and can then use them within your FAA validation.
G

[ifitaintboeing]

has somebody experience with Night Flying in US with an US Validation of an JAA Private License (Day VFR only). Is it definitely legal having done the US Night Requirements with US Instructor (3 hours, 10 Landings, XC at night?)


You will have to get your Night Qualification added to your JAR-FCL licence, then a new 61.75 certificate issued.

[7of9]

OK, so i have the USA FAA licence on the back of my JAR/FCL/PPL. I now have my IMC & before I Fly in USA next years Vacation I will have my Night Rating on my UK Licence.

Am I to understand from some of the "Experts" on here that I can Fly Night & IMC in USA now? when I have been told & heard that they are NOT Valid in USA???

Confused:ugh::ugh:

[Contacttower]

Am I to understand from some of the "Experts" on here that I can Fly Night & IMC in USA now? when I have been told & heard that they are NOT Valid in USA???

Ignore the "experts". IMC rating is only ever valid in the UK.

You may fly at night in the US on a 61.75 provided your JAR licence has the words "the privileges of this licence may be exercised at night" written in it. Which it will do if you have done the UK night qualification.

You may have been told the night rating is "not valid" in the US because in the US there is no concept of a night rating...basic PPL includes it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ignore the "experts". IMC rating is only ever valid in the UK.

You may fly at night in the US on a 61.75 provided your JAR licence has the words "the privileges of this licence may be exercised at night" written in it. Which it will do if you have done the UK night qualification.

You may have been told the night rating is "not valid" in the US because in the US there is no concept of a night rating...basic PPL includes it.

I don't know the author, or anything much about him, but this page (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc-privileges/index.html) is very interesting in that regard.

G

[BackPacker]

IMC rating is only ever valid in the UK.

The IMC rating as a means to enter IMC conditions is indeed only valid in the UK. But... There is a restriction on a plain vanilla UK-issued (JAA or National) PPL that you may not fly out of sight of the surface, UNLESS an IR or IMC rating is held.

So having an IMC removes a restriction on your plain vanilla PPL, and that means that that restriction is also no longer present when flying on your 61.75 FAA PPL.

(Are we having fun with license restrictions yet?)

[BigGrecian]

Definitely NOT legal.


I asked the FAA in writing the following - due to a debate amongst instructors :

We have many students who have pilot's licences issued under 61.75 - but have not completed any night training as this is not required under JAA

These students when undertaking their night training are required to fly solo at night.

How can we send the student solo at night as they hold a private US certificate (based on 61.75) - can this done through an endorsement finding them proficient at night similar to that required for 61.87(o) and put their licence number?

Or would they have to do this on a student pilot certificate in accordane with 61.87 - but then this is in contradiction to 61.75 b) 3)
but could they get this student pilot licence issued after the process of 61.75 which states "may be issued" which implies before the FAA private is issued?

Otherwise it seems that a private holder from another country cannot come to the US to complete night training and then fly the required solo hours?


The FAA have put in writing the following :

Ref § 61.31(d)(2); § 61.75(e)(3); and § 61.109(a)(2) [for single engine airplane aeronautical experience at night] or (b)(2) [for multiengine airplane aeronautical experience at night]. I am assuming this training will be in an airplane. Correct?

Per § 61.75(e)(3), a person “Is subject to the limitations and restrictions on the person's U.S. certificate and foreign pilot license when exercising the privileges of that U.S. pilot certificate in an aircraft of U.S. registry operating within or outside the United States.” However, in your scenario the person is undergoing training (even though it is for JAA licensing) and will be exercising their § 61.75 private pilot certificate. So, § 61.31(d)(2) would be the controlling rule. Per § 61.31(d)(2), the rule states:

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must-
* * *
(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.

Again, I am assuming this training will be in an airplane.

In order for a holder of a Private Pilot Certificate with an Airplane Single Engine or Airplane Multiengine rating to be allowed to fly solo at night, that person must have received night training from an authorized flight instructor on at least the following:

[For Single Engine Airplane Aeronautical Experience at Night]
(2) Except as provided in § 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes-
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

or

[For Multiengine Airplane Aeronautical Experience at Night]
(2) Except as provided in § 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a multiengine airplane that includes-
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

[Contacttower]

I don't know the author, or anything much about him, but this page is very interesting in that regard.

It was IO540 I believe...

[BackPacker]

It was irony I believe...

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or possibly that I didn't know IO540's real name? (Or probably did once but forgot).

G

[MartinCh]

What if a person is not allowed to fly solo (insurance, policy etc) after the required night training (as for full FAA PPL in category and class), holding validation and not having done night training before, intending to have ASEL commercial training done and licence issued?

[BackPacker]

Find an aircraft with an insurance policy that does allow you to fly solo NVFR?

In any case, the "required night training" you mention specifically requires solo take-offs and landings. So if your insurance states you can't do solo NVFR for whatever reason, you can't even use that aircraft for your night training in the first place.

[B2N2]

I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong but be carefull with the source.
Regulations change and interpretations and rulings change also.

The following would be possible and in agreement with what BigCrecian posted:

Enroll in a course of training for the full FAA PPL certificate.
Meet all the pre solo requirements of 61.87(d), complete the night training requirements and be allowed to fly solo at night under a solo night endorsement.
Big difference here that you are now flying on a FAA Student Pilot Certificate (& medical) and with a solo endorsement.
You are NOT flying on the priviliges of your piggy back 61.75 certificate.

Solo night you would be limited to pattern work as no instructor in their right mind would endorse a student pilot for night cross country.


But that is a sidestep from the original question which dealt with night flying on the 61.75 to which the answer is still NO.

[BigGrecian]

Enroll in a course of training for the full FAA PPL certificate.
Meet all the pre solo requirements of 61.87(d), complete the night training requirements and be allowed to fly solo at night under a solo night endorsement.
Big difference here that you are now flying on a FAA Student Pilot Certificate (& medical) and with a solo endorsement.
You are NOT flying on the priviliges of your piggy back 61.75 certificate.


That's not possible. You can't hold the student pilot certificate and the 61.75 Private at the same time.

Also that's not what the FAA said they said :
In order for a holder of a Private Pilot Certificate with an Airplane Single Engine or Airplane Multiengine rating to be allowed to fly solo at night, that person must have received night training from an authorized flight instructor on at least the following:

The inspectors I asked at the FSDO recommended an endorsement to say you've given the training.

Every inspector and DPE I have ever met are all on the same page - do the training as listed give an endorsment and send them.

Same as how you can send a pilot solo in aircraft solo in an aircraft class in which they are not licensed/certificated on.

It's done under 61.31(d)'s regulation on serving as pilot in command.

[Whopity]

So having an IMC removes a restriction on your plain vanilla PPL, and that means that that restriction is also no longer present when flying on your 61.75 FAA PPL.That depends on which licence you hold. It is indeed true for a JAA licence, but not for a UK licence where Para 2 c (iii) out of sight of the surface is limited to the UK. ANO Schedule 7(1) Subject to paragraph (2), within the United Kingdom an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes) rating entitles:
(a) the holder of a United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane without being subject to the restrictions contained respectively in paragraph (2)(c) or (f) of the privileges of the United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) (2) The holder may not:

(c) unless the licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane:
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace if the flight visibility is less than
three km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10 km
except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of
this sub-paragraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface;

[MartinCh]

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience. (for CPL single engine) - as of 9/26/2011

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Well, I don't know about the night rating in the UK reqs - not my priority, as I don't have UK PPL and don't aim at fixed wing commercial in the UK or Europe - for now. I've got 'piggyback' fixed wing PPL.

In the case of non-towered airport, one would still have to fly to nearby Delta airspace before the ATC guys call it a day for the patterns.

The excerpt of 14 CFR 61.129 is to show that nowhere in the FARs it is mandatory that the night experience is to be solo.
Without something official, being endorsed as having received the 3hrs of night training with 10 landings/takeoffs incl pattern, etc, it'd not be kosher to log the further 5 hours night with instructor onboard as PIC, or would it?

So the last post of BigGrecian suggest, contrary to some other opinions, to have endorsement, that'd automatically fulfill the FAA PPL night training requirements, then one can log the further 5 hours night as PIC as sole manipulator of controls/performing duties of PIC with instructor onboard.

[Contacttower]

So my understanding of BigGrecian's post is that provided that it is done under the auspices of an instructor solo flight at night in the US on a piggy back licence is possible without a JAR night qualification.

However surely that doesn't change the fact that that once you have done the training you still need to have the 'Day Only' restriction removed from your JAR PPL until you can act as PIC at night in the US without an instructor's authorisation to fly solo.

[Zulu Alpha]

Enroll in a course of training for the full FAA PPL certificate.
Meet all the pre solo requirements of 61.87(d), complete the night training requirements and be allowed to fly solo at night under a solo night endorsement.
Big difference here that you are now flying on a FAA Student Pilot Certificate (& medical) and with a solo endorsement.
You are NOT flying on the priviliges of your piggy back 61.75 certificate.

This would only allow you to fly solo ie no passengers.

Rather than do the piggy back think its a good idea to get the standalone FAA licence. This does require a flight test and the US exams, but this is not much more than the checkride that any school will put you through before they will rent you an aircraft. If you have the required number of night hours in your logbook then your US licence will be valid after dark. These night hours can be done in the UK or in the US.

You get the temporary licence straight away after a successful test!!

[B2N2]

That's not possible. You can't hold the student pilot certificate and the 61.75 Private at the same time.


Yes, you can. It is specifically allowed if the 61.75 certificate was issued prior to the issuance of a standard US pilot certificate, ie a student pilot certificate.
Source:
Flight Standards Information System (FSIMS) (http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=SubjectCategories&area=05&subject=02&regulation=all)
FSIMS Document Viewer (http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=05EA9A36061255FF8525734F00766662)
5-597 U.S. PILOT CERTIFICATES THAT MAY BE ISSUED TO A PERSON WHO HOLDS A FOREIGN PILOT LICENSE.
Look under C (3)

So after you have met the pre solo training requirements, which can be completed in 2-3 flights and the night flying requirements met you can be allowed to fly solo at night on a solo endoresement. No passengers.
You are now excercising the priviliges of a US student pilot certificate and not your 61.75 certificate.

So during the day you carry passengers and you can go anywhere you like and during night you are solo and limited to what your instructor has endorsed you to do.

The FAA will answer the question that you ask, everything stated by BigCrecian is correct (almost everything :ok:) but the "FAA answer" given may not specifically apply to 61.75
By their own admission the FAA is not the most standardized institution in the world. Some regulations are very specific and some are vague and open to more interpretation. You may even have a letter of authorization from the FAA that was issued based on incorrect or incomplete information.
You may have a letter of authorization from the local FSDO based on correct information provided but a wrong interpretation and it is revoked later.
Wouldn't be the first time. Doesn't make it right.

61.75 is a validation based on your foreign qualifications. It carries the restrictions of your foreign license.

I. Added Ratings to a U.S. Pilot Certificate. If a person requests that a rating be added to his/her U.S. pilot certificate on the basis of meeting the appropriate pilot certification requirements of part 61 (i.e., the practical test and the knowledge test, if applicable), those requirements must be accomplished before the issuance of that additional rating. However, if the person requests the added rating on the basis of that rating having been added to his/her foreign pilot license, no knowledge test or practical test is required. The authenticity of the foreign license must be verified before adding the appropriate rating.


So "night priviliges" on the 61.75 can only be "added" after a night-rating has been added to the foreign pilot certificate.
A new application and license verification must be completed.

So if you really can't help yourself and you have a letter from the local FSDO authorizing it, go ahead. Doesn't make it right.

You can't have everything in life.

*** I don't want to be an @ss about this, but I am ready to stand corrected if you bring a reliable source or reference. As in on this date this Inspector (initials fine) sent me an email of which I now quote (copy and paste) the following:Remember people are asking us for advise and may very well only use our answer as a reference and get in trouble as a result of it ****

[dublinpilot]

However, if the person requests the added rating on the basis of that rating having been added to his/her foreign pilot license, no knowledge test or practical test is required. The authenticity of the foreign license must be verified before adding the appropriate rating.

But a night qualification is not a rating under the JAR system, nor is it a rating under the FAA system.

[B2N2]

OMG semantics......:ugh: it's an operating privilige which is the same thing with a different name. JHC :ugh:
If your European certificate states maximum 2000kgs, that's not a rating either so can you now fly a heavier aircraft in the US after you've done training with an instructor?
Dublin pilot, congratulations , you've found my button.

http://www.brainsturbator.com/img/postalCat.gif

[dublinpilot]

Sorry B2N2 but it's not a semantic. There is quite a bit of difference between a rating and a qualification. That is why they are given different names.

For example, with a qualification, there is no theory, no test, no renewals.

Likewise if I asked the FAA to add a night qualification to my FAA certificate they would tell me that there was no such thing.

To ignore that is to ignore the facts to suit your argument.

[Contacttower]

I can't remember whether it would or not, because I think I did my 61.75 after doing my night qualification but the answer the debate over whether a new FAA cert would need to be issued or not surely hinges on whether the original one specifically said 'Day VFR only' on it.

If it didn't then (which I suspect it wouldn't) then there would be no reason to go through the 61.75 process again.

[B2N2]

What I stated earlier was copy and paste (no interpretation) from what was fromerly known as the FAA Inspectors handbook order 8900 and is now online as FSIMS.

the debate over whether a new FAA cert would need to be issued or not surely hinges on whether the original one specifically said 'Day VFR only' on it.

Absolutely agree with you.
I would expect that a change of operating priviliges or the addition of a rating would mean reissuance of the original beacuse of some added text in which case a new 61.75 should be issued.

Certain issues will always be skewed.

To the original poster: let us know how everything worked out and if you enjoyed your flying holiday in the USA :ok: