Rent, share or own?!

[Storkeye]

Hi,

Firstly, I'm sorry if this has already been posted, I couldn't find it after a couple days of searching.

I am a fairly low hours ppl looking to fly a lot more and spend a bit less (aren't we all!). I am wondering if it might be worth buying a plane or a share in a plane instead of renting one. As it stands I rent from an excellent club and pay about £120 per hour wet for a PA28-161 Warrior.

Buying or sharing: To keep the answers fairly simple, lets imagine that I were to buy a Warrior. When would the aircraft be due a service? When I look through the classifieds there is much mention about TT, airframe hrs and prop hrs etc. The question is what does TT stand for? And at what hours does work need to be done? Engine hours: how many hours before a new engine? or overhall? What are the average costs of the annual?

What are the key milestones for GA aircraft? Does it change for complex singles instead of simple types?

I suppose what I am trying to do is create a kind of business plan, but it's hard for a newbe to get a grip of the costs in advance and thus understand the cost undertaking fully.

I appreciate, like many things in GA, this may not be a simple question but any guidance would be gratefully received.

Many thanks to anyone who undertakes this question!!!

:D

[jxc]

TT = Total time

How many hours do you intend on flying a year ?
I would say you would probably be best to buy a share in an aircraft and learn about aircraft ownership that way plus the bills are easier on the wallet

[thing]

If you're doing 4 or less hours a month then you're better off renting. There was a share in one of our a/c going and I worked out all the sums, around 4 hours was the break even point. Being as I'm only planning on doing around 50 hours per year it wasn't really worth it. If I was doing say 10 hours per month then I would have snapped their hand off.

[McGoonagall]

I'm sure there will be lots of responses but here is my twopennorth.

Firstly, identify what you want to do with your license. If it is to bang a PA-28 to the gills with four people and go fly then you will not be going too far. If however there will be you and one other then look at a syndicate around a Eurostar or similar Rotax powered machine. Often classed as microlights they are in effect a vastly more efficient C150 or PA-38. Average costs run around £3k for a share, £60ish a month contribution and around £30/35ph wet.

TT in adverts means 'total time', TBO = Time Between Overhauls, TSO = Time since overhaul and lots more. If you are flying purely for fun then I would err towards a permit to fly aeroplane rather than a full EASA type, lots about and generally vastly more fun than standard trainers, and a lot cheaper in the long run.

Before you make a choice go and try a few out. Many schools have a different type of permit aeroplane so go fill your boots then choose what is right for you.

[The500man]

TT is total time as a few others have already mentioned. In case you're wondering that is the time on the airframe. Engines are usually listed seperately as they normally are overhauled after a predetermined number of hours whereas airframes go on and on until they fall to pieces (or no one wants to get in them anymore). For a complex type, you should also expect to see the number of hours on the propeller.

I would advise you to talk to other owners of the type you are interested in buying into to find out what to look for and get type specific information. Any flyng school could probably tell you alot about ownership of a Warrior!

In terms of costs, on top of fuel and wear and tear per hour, you will have to pay fixed costs such as insurance, parking or hangarage, and maintenance. Which altogether may come to around £7-10k+ per annum depending on the type and your location. You would probably need to fly alot of hours to make it cheaper to own over renting if you break the fixed costs down per flight hour.

Shares will be cheaper to buy into and you will be sharing the fixed costs with other people so that is generally what most people do. If you need the freedom to go where you want when you want though outright ownership may be worth the extra cost to you.

[Storkeye]

Thanks for the replies so far, I've had my PPL for 7 years and I'm looking to move up a notch. If it helps, here are my av-goals:

a. fly as much as possible to build hours & experience (i'm a bit of a perfectionist ;)).
b. visit as many airfields/airports as possible (why not?)
c. do some european xc flights with my wife and 2 kids.
d. rent the plane to the club when I'm not using it (keeps the engine warm, eh!).
e. get my FI (with CPL probably) and teach in 5 years time or so.
f. help teach my kids to become Airline Pilots when they grow up. (well that one's more of a dream than a goal!)

So with all those goals in mind, I think owning a plane or a share would be my best option. I'm currently flying 4 to 5 hours per month, but I would like to fly about 6 to 10 hours per month, ideally.

Hope that helps with the rationale.

TT = What's a good TT and what's a bad one? Is it comparible to mileage on a car, ie 200,000 = scrap yard?

[Humaround]

Worth pointing out that the main operational difference between Certified and Permit types is that you can't currently fly in IMC in a Permit type.

You don't say if you have, or are planning to get, an IMCR so the point is moot.

I fly a nice (very nice actually) Jodel 1050 which is a Permit type with 2+2 seating (ours is insured for P1 +2 pax, but for a little extra I would be able to carry P1 + Mrs H + 2 H-lings). I estimate with my yearly hours at about 70 the cost is £55 ph wet.

[B2N2]

Stork, spent some quality time with your freindly maintenance person at your local airport.
A simple offer to buy lunch will go a long way. Bring a note pad.
Be prepared to be in shock and awe afterwards.
This thread will water down into opinions iso facts.

[Rod1]

To try and put some numbers into this.

30 hours a year at £120 is £3600

A 1/5 share in a pa28-140 running cost will be typically;

30 Hours at £85 per hour is £2550
Monthly cost £90 is £1080
Total cost £3630

Plus the capital of around £4k

The 1050 would typically be (1/5 share);

30 hours at £50 per hour £1500
Monthly £50 is £600
Total £2100

Plus Capital of around £5k

Both aircraft will do European VFR touring at similar speed with two adults and two children but the 1050 is restricted to daytime VFR.

Outright ownership running costs of the PA28 would cost about £9k all in, the DR1050 would be about £4.5k (for 30 hours).

Rod1

[Redbird72]

If you're doing 4 or less hours a month then you're better off renting. There was a share in one of our a/c going and I worked out all the sums, around 4 hours was the break even point.

To be honest, the break even point depends largely on what you're renting and in what part of the country. I'm currently renting a PA28-180 in the South East, and found that with most local shares for non-complex 4-seaters (including more capable aircraft) the break even point was at 25hrs per year.

Home landing fees should always be factored in as they have a significant effect on the hourly rate.

[2high2fastagain]

Storkeye,

Some opinions and thoughts on addressing your goals.

a. fly as much as possible to build hours & experience (i'm a bit of a perfectionist http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif).

I guess this depends on what 'as much as possible means'. When you rack up the hours there'll be a breakpoint when outright ownership is worth considering. I suppose it's difficult to make a case that this is ever cost effective, but if the aircraft is booked out when you want to use it all the time...

b. visit as many airfields/airports as possible (why not?)
c. do some european xc flights with my wife and 2 kids.

This combo can be satisfied with a C182 (biased owner here). You can get in anywhere with it pretty much no matter how short the runway is, and it's great for a long european flights with four up and load of luggage with good range and a crunchy cruising speed.

d. rent the plane to the club when I'm not using it (keeps the engine warm, eh!).

Watch the insurance on this one. It might not end up not being cost effective. The other thing that would worry me is that kind of usage it might get - bashing circuits will wear it out, or people breaking things and not telling you. If you fly frequently as you suggest, I'd think carefully about whether this is necessary.

e. get my FI (with CPL probably) and teach in 5 years time or so.

Maybe a complex is a good idea. Wobbly prop and tuck away wheels. That will at least keep you interested if you want to build up your skills.

f. help teach my kids to become Airline Pilots when they grow up. (well that one's more of a dream than a goal!)

Take 'em flying when you go anywhere but make sure they can see over the front panel (otherwise they will be sick - hard experience of this). However, make sure it's their dream rather than yours. One of mine hates flying, so I don't push it.