Interesting new clause

[PAXboy]

I am researching a big Antipodean trip for October/November next year. So am making sure I have all the options checked out before the week that I want becomes available, checking using FFMs to upgrade etc, as well as the domestic and regional sectors for a trip that could easily have ten or twelve sectors. Since this is a holiday, it will be all on my own account - so am being very carefully.

I plan to go out with Air NZ and in their Y booking form (not going Y but might buy and upgrade) has this:
Cancellation: No refund
£150 penalty fee per adult in the event of a no-show (child and infant discounts apply) and ticket remains non-refundable

I would say that, adding a further £150 penalty charge, when they will have either carried the seat empty or slotted in someone else, is a marked change in the game. Or am I over reacting? Perhaps other carriers have had this for ages, and I've not noticed.

Naturally, they offer to sell you insurance to protect against this. :*

[Shack37]

£150 penalty fee per adult in the event of a no-show (child and infant discounts apply) and ticket remains non-refundable

Can this possibly be legal? How do Air NZ propose to collect this "Fee"? Sounds a bit like being condemned without a trial.
Will they pursue next of kin in the event of customer death for example.
The inmates have truly taken over the asylum.

[astir 8]

No show?? Think yourself lucky if ANZ only charge you £150 for another flight. Compare that with British Airways. They'd cancel the whole schedule,confiscate the money and tell you to :mad:off.

See "Time taken for BA to answer complaint" thread.

Or am I getting it wrong and ANZ are proposing to cancel the whole schedule, confiscate your money, tell you to :mad:off and charge you £150 more???

[PAXboy]

I was looking up details for a single (rtn from Oz) so cannot say.

[west lakes]

Or is to cover the case of a passenger booking A to C via B to get the best price, but only wanting to and turning up to fly B to C?
Strikes me you would get hit with the £150 charge at B to get on the flight!

[VS-LHRCSA]

That does sound pretty standard. It's basically a last minute change that you are paying a penalty for, like most changes. The ticket is non refundable but you are still able to travel on another flight. It's not like they've kept your fare AND slapped you with a fee. Your seat may well have flown empty, that could have been sold with warning, so I guess they are protecting their margin for that flight.

I forked out $850 for a bargain NZ fare from US to Australia but had to change due to a work screw up. I ended up having to no-show and write off the $850 because the changes ended up costing more than the fare!

[Shack37]

Or am I getting it wrong and ANZ are proposing to cancel the whole schedule, confiscate your money, tell you to http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifoff and charge you £150 more???


That's how I read it hence the "Angry of Tunbridge Wells" reaction.

[Hotel Tango]

Or is to cover the case of a passenger booking A to C via B to get the best price, but only wanting to and turning up to fly B to C?
Strikes me you would get hit with the £150 charge at B to get on the flight!

That wouldn't work anyway. If you fail to show for A to B, your B to C will automatically be cancelled.

[ExXB]

I suspect it also renders those things (third party taxes) that should be refundable, not-refundable. With UK PSC reaching incredible amounts, particularly to the anti-pods, they can tell you that they are deducting their no-show fee from any tax value remaining. Reduces their admin costs and boosts their cash flow.

[Chuchinchow]

Quite frankly, I do not understand what all the kvetching is about.

If you don't like it then don't buy it. There are plenty of other carriers out there.

[Shack37]

Quite frankly, I do not understand what all the kvetching is about.

If you don't like it then don't buy it. There are plenty of other carriers out there.



Very true but if one gets away with it the rest will soon have their noses in the trough.

[PAXboy]

CCC If you buy tickets for a theatre/concert and live show. You may expect that the venue will say, "No admittance after the start of performance, until interval." Most of us will have had the frustrating experience of being delayed by work and/or traffic and realising that the two £40 tickets are now worthless bits of paper.

What you do NOT expect is for the mgmt, as they turn you away from the door to say, "By the way, we've just charged you another £10 because we still have your credit card details."

Sure, I can choose another carrier - and I always choose my carriers with care and diligence - but to have a reputable carrier like ANZ start down this path? It indicates that they are showing the early warning signs of MBAnia and Accountancy-itis.

I was also irritated that their website told me that my browser 'may not be fully compatible with this website' They reccomend I.E 8.0 or later for Windows and Firefox for Mac OS but not, it seems, Firefox 6.0 for Windows. :*

[Chuchinchow]

OK, Paxboy, so what concrete steps do you plan to take (a) against ANZ, (b) against ticket agencies and (c) against "their"software designers?

I remember my very first boss's advice when I started work: "Don't bring me problems; I only want solutions".

I reiterate my earlier suggestion: boycott ANZ - and let them know exactly why. Whingeing, moaning and muttering here on this board are completely useless. If BA have taken no notice of Astir and his apparently justified complaint why should ANZ pay any attention to this thread?

Best wishes.

[ross_M]

Whingeing, moaning and muttering here on this board are completely useless.

Not really. Encourages other PAX to boycott them too. If really lucky it makes it to the local papers. Airlines hate that.

[PAXboy]

Overall, my usual plan is to boycott. I stopped writing letters/emails as they either get no reply or a standard one. So I don't waste my time telling companies what they do not want to hear. I've worked in commerce for 34 years and have some understanding of the world.

Don't bring me problems; I only want solutions. Ah yes, I've had that one too. It often (not always) means: "I won't help you find a good solution by which the company and it's customers can benefit. But I'll benefit when I present it to the next level of mgmt." I think it's disingenuous because the junior may not have all the information, experience or imagination to create the solution. They may know the problem and have several possible answers or part answers, but need more than that to find the full answer.

I don't take offence at your firm point and refusal to purchase is my standard reply - without telling them why as that has a teeny tiny chance of any effect. Modern corporations do not reply to individuals, only to public media campaigns and social networking uprisings on a MASSIVE scale, not humble PPRuNe.

This change in penalty really is a new step because the ONLY way to recover your costs is through a medical emergency. If your car breaks down on the motorway to the airport and you can't get a taxi? You could prove with receipts from the repair/relay company what happened but that won't count - you will STILL have lost another £150.

The problem is that, for the route on this once in a lifetime trip and the FFMs that I have available for an upgrade - all direct to this carrier alone. :(

My thanks to ross_M for his point.

[esa-aardvark]

Hello Paxboy,
I am an NZ citizen and visit NZ once a year, never flying Air NZ,
because of their bad attitude. Having said that I did once write to their chief executive (same one as today), and to my surprise received a perfectly polite, if unhelpful answer. So do try writing to him. I fly only Star alliance longhaul, and I suppose you could use your Air NZ miles via Star alliance somehow. I usually stick to the Asian airlines, who in my experience are much easier on
upgrades anyhow.

[peuce]

Wouldn't it be good if we could charge THEM $150 if they are late, or cancel ?

[PAXboy]

peuce I was just considering what I might reply to the latest postings - when yours arrived. PERFECT!! :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

ANZ used to be excellent and we used to fly with them a lot beteen HKG and LHR. But they've gone a bit 'Low Cost', both in their pricing structure and attitude. I particularly hate that the price you see initially is a long way short of what you are expected to pay.

Haven't used them for a while now. There are much better airlines.

[Chuchinchow]

Modern corporations do not reply to individuals, only to public media campaigns and social networking uprisings on a MASSIVE scale, not humble PPRuNe.

"Humble PPRuNe"????!!!!! That, sir, is pure heresy.

Be afraid: even as you read this a PPRuNe prelate, armed with bell, book and candle, is getting ready to excommunicate you.

[PAXboy]

PaultheparagliderI'm guessing that what ANZ are doing is charging you the fuel surcharge if you no showPossible but the surchage is incorporated into the ticket price before you pay.

I appreciate the suggestions that have emerged, when I had made a different point. In short: I have a Virgin Flying Club that I can either use towards an upgrade on ANZ to get out to Auckland (or pay all in cash) or I can use the VFC miles on Virgin Australia as I make regional flights during the trip. I'm adding up all the options and it will come down to money.

As to missing the flight on the day? I may well have shackled myself to the check in the day before so as not to miss it! However, as a line in the sand, this change in terms of carriage is significant.

[RevMan2]

This is the commercial logic. I think.

You have a booking on a non-refundable ticket.
You no-show.
You can't get your money back, but you can use the ticket at a later date.
They'll charge you a rebooking fee and if there's no difference between the old and the new ticket prices, you're flying at a later date with no significant cost increase.

They have guaranteed you a seat on your original flight, turning down reservation requests from other passengers who might have been willing to pay more for your seat.
You don't turn up for the flight, Air NZ can't sell the seat so not only have they achieved no revenue from that seat on that flight, they also achieved no opportunity revenue from the unfilled demand from other passengers competing for that seat.
For this inconvenience they charge you £150.
They COULD of course overbook massively to compensate for your unreliability, but if the RM algorithms get things horribly wrong, the airline ends up paying DBC.

So isn't it more logical to NOT overbook the non-refundable tickets, knowing that they've got the revenue anyway and just charge you for the inconvenience?

Smart move by Air NZ and undoubtedly coming to an airport near you...

[PAXboy]

Yes, RevMan2, I agree but, as I read it:You can't get your money back, but you can use the ticket at a later date.I'll look again at booking time but I saw: Lose the money + Lose the ticket = Tough luck.

I sit to be corrected.

[RevMan2]

Air NZ booking engine
£150 penalty fee per adult in the event of a no-show (child and infant discounts apply) and ticket remains non-refundable

You still have a ticket, you can use it at a later date, but you pay a penalty of £150 for messing them around

The thing to do is not to no-show.....

[PAXboy]

Thanks RevMan2, a slightly different complexion but they must know how many how much money they are going to make from this!

[RevMan2]

A mint!
No-shows and ticket class are eminently quantifiable, they'll be able to tailor the buckets on future flights to ensure that no seats at the original price are available, so not only have they got compensation for the foregone marginal contribution, they've also locked the passenger into a higher revenue band. And at some stage the validity of the ticket expires. All that money for doing nothing PLUS £150 on top!

And now you know who's responsible for the delays on the Piccadilly Line.

I did something similar in the cargo world a long time ago - got shippers to share the risk of no-showing with shipments larger than 20% of capacity by formulating something like a split-charter agreement: cancel up to 2 weeks in advance at no penalty, up to a week 50%, within a week 100%.

Phoney bookings disappeared

[PAXboy]

Interesting RM2. This simple clause could well be about switching the no show and overbooking/DNB situation through 180 degrees,

If this IS what we are discussing, then there is no doubt that it will spread to every legacy carrier on the globe. :ooh:

[RevMan2]

It's already there for LCCs....

[PAXboy]

Indeed, that was my thought! I should have been specific in that it is a way for the legacy carriers to catch up with the LCCs in one area of revenue generation. Of course, with the LCCs (for the most part) you lose the ticket too. Some will rebook you if you are few minutes late but that is at discretion/PR value.

[Hipennine]

PAXboy, exactly what ticketing class (not cabin class) was quoted for the fare ? There may be different conditions depending on the ticketing class being offered, with different flexibilities on re-booking, and the notice required to re-book. Different carriers have different rules for this, and sometimes the online booking systems will only offer the least flexible, especially if you search on price, rather than flight time.

By contrast, I booked some return flights on BMI yesterday and was presented by a mind-boggling matrix of Y and J fares of different flexibility, some of which were only available in one direction, some non-refundable, and some allowed re-booking subject to a re-booking fee.

[PAXboy]

Short answer = I don't know. I need to travel in october 2012 (wish it were August to get awy from the dreaded sports nonsense here) and so I am just checking routes and prices in principle, before booking when the time slot opens.

There is no doubt that the booking class is a very powerful money generating tool. :ouch:

[Hipennine]

Try booking through Opodo. Quite often this will give you a whole range of fares for the same flight (all through the same airline, not code-shares), even if the airline's own website doesn't, and it isn't until you get deeply into the flexibility allowances by looking at the individual ticket prices that the differences become apparent (it is a long laborious process to do this though !).