Filing flight plans France to UK

[Haka99]

Hi All,

Wondering if someone could help out. I am flying to Le Touquet for the first time next week and have all the details for filing the flight plans on the outbound leg from the UK, but have no idea how to file the flight plan for the return (home) leg. Is there an on-line French flight plan site that you can file flight plans via or can it be done instead at the airport for example? Thanks in advance for any knowledge on this

[Mark 1]

Most French airfields will have a computer set up to file on OLIVIA (http://olivia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/index.php?lang=en&ref=olivia).

I suggest you have a look and get yourself familiar with it.

[IO540]

Whatever method you use to file the outgoing FP can be used to file the return FP, at the same time, or at another time.

UK pilots are "encouraged" to use the AFPEX online system, which is a little "opaque" but is easy enough once somebody has showed you. Some notes on online filing and here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/online-flight-plan-filing/index.html) and in addition there is RocketRoute (http://www.rocketroute.com/).

[IanSeager]

You have some options...

- Do it at the same time as you file your outbound flight plan
- Fill in a paper one at Le Touquet and hand it to the desk
- Use their free wifi to file via the net (Afpex, SkyDemon, Rocket Route)
- Call a BRIA and read it over the 'phone (Lille in this case)

I don't think there's an OLIVIA terminal at Le Touquet

HTH

Ian

[Whopity]

Funny how something that was very simple 30 years ago has been made more difficult by technology!

[IO540]

That's true in the UK, for most pilots.

For those who walk around with mobile internet, it is probably more convenient. Whether it is "easier" for IFR is doubtful because the whole Eurocontrol business has made the actual filing operation rather moot, because it is preceeded by a fairly involved process of getting a valid route.

Also, I think it is true everywhere outside the UK that you can simply write out a flight plan on the paper form and hand it in. The time that falls over is when there is nobody around at the airport :)

[Jan Olieslagers]

Funny how something that was very simple 30 years ago has been made more difficult by technology!

If it is being made more difficult, it's not the technology as such that is doing so. Behind technology and its application are minds, human minds mostly. It seems to me these human minds have made less progress over the last couple of decades than the technology they are supposed to control.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I think it is true everywhere outside the UK that you can simply write out a flight plan on the paper form and hand it in.

I don't think so. There's plenty of aerodromes on the European continent with no permanent facility whatsoever for filing a flight plan. But one can always call the local authority and file the flight plan by word of mouth. The simplest of mobile phones will do the job.

[IO540]

Yes; I was thinking of "international" airports.

Plenty of little places around but one can't fly to/from those and the UK.

[Contacttower]

The bewildering variation in the number of different places French airports seem to hide their flight planning facilities is a constant source of annoyance I find.

The most common arrangement though is a simple telephone usually placed near to where the big yellow 'C' symbol is which usually has a direct line to the regional flight planning office. However I have encountered everything from absolutely nothing to the aforementioned Olivia system in various places. The safest option since it gets you talking to a real human being is to have the number of the regional flight planning office so that you can always call them if technology defeats you.

At Le Touquet you shouldn't have a problem, have your return route written down and then if it isn't obvious just ask someone were the computer terminal or phone is to file it.

[IO540]

It doesn't matter how one approaches this old topic... there is just one reasonably elegant solution and that is a laptop with internet connectivity.

Everything else is just a hassle (at best) or a big problem (at worst).

Even if the airport has a GA office where you can just hand in a flight plan, you will probably prefer to file it from your home or the hotel the night before.

Especially if it is an IFR one which can get chucked out by Eurocontrol and if this is going to happen you want to find out the day before and not when you are about to go out to the plane.

This is what I have been doing since 2004 and, subject to getting an internet connection, it has always done the job well.

Before that, I used to do it the old way and, with VFR flight plans, quite a high % simply vanished if I used the DOF/ specification on them. On one 4-leg trip down to Spain, 3 of the 4 vanished.

[patowalker]

The most important telephone number to have when flying to small customs airfields in France is08 10 437 837. You are going to need it to close your FPL outside AFIS hours, in order to avoid the cost of a SAR operation. :ouch:

[wsmempson]

Just ring Nantes BRIA and file a flightplan over the phone.

0033228002570

[Whopity]

It seems to me these human minds have made less progress over the last couple of decades than the technology they are supposed to control. How right you are. I have a nephew in IT you lives not far from you who says most IT projects fail because of poor project management. He recently left Euro-control saying they were a total shambles.

[IO540]

Eurocontrol has always been a bunch of technocrats who apply the most complicated solution to everything.

You start at their access control system, where each person stands in a tube, and at the base of the tube is a mat which has sensor pads in it which are connected to a computer which works out how many feet are standing on the mat - to prevent more than one person squeezing in. Fairly obviously, one could defeat it by each of two people standing on one leg each.

It's no wonder they have implemented a horrendous routing system which ATC do not operate on the day anyway.

[IanSeager]

The reality is very easy if you have internet, and very easy (in France at least) if you have access to a telephone (wsmempson - it's the BRIA at Lille that covers Le Touquet +33 (0)3 20 16 19 65/66).

Peter (as I am sure you know), with Rocket Route or Eurofpl even IFR is easy if you have a 'phone with a 3G connection.

Ian

[ronturner]

Just picking up on a point raised in one of the above mentioned replies.

DO NOT FORGET TO CLOSE YOUR FLIGHT PLAN WHEN LANDING IN FRANCE. It could be very expensive.

As President of Atlantic Airpark I am telephoned frequently by Nantes or Bordeaux if somebody landing here has not closed within a short time of intended landing time. Not only that, it seems that every "G or N" reg 'plane that fails to close with an intended landing anywhere near here, I get those calls too.

Its nice to know we are being looked after, but its a pain for me, especially if I have to get out of the pool to answer the 'phone. Bons vols.
RT

[echobeach]

If I was the original poster this would all sound very complicated to me, and I would be worrying about my first trip to le touquet. Filing in Le Touquet will be easy for you. Do not worry !

Filing a flight plan in Le Touquet could not be made easier. They are very helpful, and that is one of the reasons apart from being a great short trip across the water, that they are my favorite weekend bimble.

Simply fill in the paper flight plan on the table to the right as you enter the arrivals hall. Give to one of the people behind the desk. They send to the tower. Go into town and enjoy the bike ride etc.

On return I usually ask if all is ok with FP and they check with tower.
Fly back. In France its usually all made easy for you.

Enjoy your first trip. You will go back often.

EB

[CJ Driver]

For the original poster - don't be put off, because as echobeach says, the traditional way still works in LFAT.

When I first went to Le Touquet, some time in the last century, the only way of filing a flight plan home again was by writing it on a paper form and handing it to the person behind the desk.

Now as various people have pointed out, you can also do it on AFPEX, on your Blackberry, on a dedicated terminal, from the business centre of your hotel, and by telepathy probably. If you have one of these toys, this is great - I'm all for progress and alternatives.

Fortunately however you can also still write it on a paper form and hand it to the person behind the desk! :cool:

Enjoy your trip.

[dublinpilot]

You can
File
change
or close

a flight plan at anytime in France in English, with one simple phone number

0810 IFR VFR (0810 437837)

Works from a mobile phone too (assuming you have roaming).

This covers flight plans in all of France, not just one area.

[proudprivate]

Frankly I don't understand the problem. If you can file a flight plan from the UK to France, why can't you file the return leg with the same internet application or over the same phone or fax machine with the ATC authority that you filed the original one ???

If there is a delay, or a change of plan, you just phone the responsible ATC authority. That can be the "BRIA" for the French region from which you depart, but I can also be the original UK ATC authority (who is just as interested in this delay).

OLIVIA is an internet application. Getting access is a doddle, and you just need internet access, not a computer at the airport. So you can file from your mobile phone (blackberry style) anywhere there is a gsm mast within reach, or from your hotel or from an internet café. The confirmation message will contain the BRIA you need to call for updates, questions or whatever.

Off-topic:


He recently left Euro-control saying they were a total shambles.


Eurocontrol recently implemented some large cuts that hit IT particularly hard. So your friend most likely left because they told him so.

He might be right about the total shambles, though, with many key resources wasted because of boneheaded management and stupid political games. Not as bad as EASA, though.

[dublinpilot]

Frankly I don't understand the problem. If you can file a flight plan from the UK to France, why can't you file the return leg with the same internet application or over the same phone or fax machine with the ATC authority that you filed the original one ???



Most likely becaue he simply handed a paper flight plan to someone at his departure airport, and doesn't know if that will be excepted at his destination for a return flight. If it won't he doesn't know how it will get a copy of that paper plan back to his original departure airport (now his return destination airport) and even if he can, will they accept it from him given that it's not his departure airport for the return leg.

So he is quite rightly trying to find out how others do things rather than waste lots of time on the ground in France trying to figure it out.

dp

[proudprivate]

Most likely because he simply handed a paper flight plan to someone at his departure airport, and doesn't know if that will be excepted at his destination for a return flight.


1) Why can't that "someone" then handle the return flight plan as well ?

...will they accept it from him given that it's not his departure airport for the return leg.

Why should the flight plan be filed with the departure airport ? Surely UK briefers talk to French briefers ? (And vice versa : both legs could be filed through OLIVIA, no need to see your UK airport chap).

2) With cost efficiencies being implemented across the board (abolishing MET offices at regional airports and increasing charges to offset unavoidable costs), I'm amazed at the fact that a UK airport would still employ "someone who handles paper flight plans".

I'm not criticizing the thread initiator for trying to find out how to avoid wasting time on the ground in France. That is of course commendable.

[IO540]

There is another angle on this:

Assuming this is VFR we are talking about, and let's say you are doing an overnight stay somewhere.

If you file the return FP on the day of departure (using whatever method) then the return flight plan needs to have a DOF/ on it, for the correct date.

Now, how is DOF/ implemented on VFR flight plans?

Errrmmmm, it isn't...

The flight plan is delivered immediately to all the addressed stations, and it is their responsibility to hang onto it and fish it out on the specified DOF.

This is done using the proverbial nail in the wall, onto which you stick flight plans which are forward-dated, and somebody has the job of checking the nail each morning.

The experience of myself and many others is that this is a crap process which often results in the loss of the flight plan.

Not a problem at LTQ because half the people flying to LTQ have probably forgotten to file a FP and the other half probably forgot to bring their passport :) :)

But it is a good reason to have a more robust procedure for this sort of thing.

IIRC, only Homebriefing (https://www.homebriefing.com/aes/login.jsp) solves this, by hanging onto the FP until the date on it and transmitting it to the addressees only on the morning of that date (or a few hours before, or something like that). That makes the DOF/ irrelevant.

AFPEX does not help in this case because it is a direct interface into the AFTN so the FP gets transmitted immediately. I don't know if EuroFPL or Rocketroute do anything in this area.

IFR flight plans have a DOF implemented in the Eurocontrol computer so it all "just works" - up to 5 days ahead. You can get some hilarious scenarios where an IFR routing worked when you filed the FP but would not be accepted (due to airway rule changes etc) had the FP been filed nearer the DOF :) Due to pure luck, I was able to get out of LTBH in Turkey while most others (it was a fly-in) were slightly stuffed... One pilot complained that the only accepted routing - a nice "tour of the Aegean" - would cause him to run out of fuel; the Turkish ATCO just shrugged and smiled.

[Jodelman]

IIRC, only Homebriefing solves this, by hanging onto the FP until the date on it and transmitting it to the addressees only on the morning of that date (or a few hours before, or something like that). That makes the DOF/ irrelevant.

I have been told that Homebriefing only sends VFR flight plans to the departure airport and relies on them to do the job properly.

Ok perhaps if the departure airport is a large one but no good if you are departing from a rural strip.

[dublinpilot]

Why can't that "someone" then handle the return flight plan as well ?

...will they accept it from him given that it's not his departure airport for the return leg.

Why should the flight plan be filed with the departure airport ? Surely UK briefers talk to French briefers ? (And vice versa : both legs could be filed through OLIVIA, no need to see your UK airport chap).

Well the reason is becaues (as you ask in part 2) in the UK nobody at the airport is employed to push paper. They have given all pilots, and airports access to an online system called Afpex which many people find quite complicated.

So many airports helpfully put the flight plan into the system via their Afpex account on behalf of the pilot. However they might not be so happy to do that for the pilot for the return flight. They might be happy to, but they might not. They are less likely to be happy to do it, if the return flight has an intermediate stop, meaning that the flight plan isn't one that involves a landing at their airport.

Of course the pilot should learn to use the Afpex system themselves, but even if they had, this still leaves the question of do they have access to an open computer at the airport at the far end.

Even saying "use Olivia" which is a very good system, still leaves the original poster with the question "Is there access to a computer than I can file a flight plan on Olivia with at the far end".

I think the question is reasonable.

As the pilot gets more experience they will either come to the realisation that most reasonable sized airports have some means of filing flight plans and getting weather briefings for visiting pilots. They will also come to the realisation that having your own means of accessing the internet and filing this stuff online is the least troublesome method in the longer term.

dp

[gasax]

Rather than indulge in the usual 'I can *iss higher up the wall than you' pprune practice.

From memory transiting LFAT last year, there is a pilot briefing room on the left - on the way out of the terminal to the apron - just before the rack of hire bicycles. In it is a PC with internet access - so notams, weather and Olivia.

Additionally the terminal staff are very helpful and most have more than enough English and aeronautical expertise to help you in the event you need it.

Enjoy your trip!

[IO540]

I have been told that Homebriefing only sends VFR flight plans to the departure airport and relies on them to do the job properly.

Yes; I recall something like that too.

As the pilot gets more experience they will either come to the realisation that most reasonable sized airports have some means of filing flight plans and getting weather briefings for visiting pilots. They will also come to the realisation that having your own means of accessing the internet and filing this stuff online is the least troublesome method in the longer term.

Very true. This (visiting pilots) is also why AFPEX is not the solution hoped for, because the people who brought it in seemingly forgot that there are loads of foreign pilots who cannot get an AFPEX account :)

Rather than indulge in the usual 'I can *iss higher up the wall than you' pprune practice.

Can you give an example?

[mm_flynn]

once you move beyond UK/France filing VFR plans seems to be a nightmare. from the UK the departure airport just looks at the plan tand doesn't do any further processing so you need to address it to all other interested parties. whereas if you file a VFR plan for departure from Spain addressed to anyone else, they will have the hump as it is their job to processes it to everyone else.

[david viewing]

There is good advice here about handing in written FPL forms, but a point not made is that in some places it can take an hour to clear. Remember to hand in the FPL after arrival, not when you are ready to walk back to the plane!

I've personally resorted to handed in FPL's in a number of Baltic type places recently simply because it's such a faff to dig out the laptop, get an internet connection, stagger through AFPEX's login and possible download slam, and so on. All this would be different if AFPEX worked on iPad, of course, but it ... doesn't.

[manix-cs]

I file my flightplans from SkyDemon at the same time as I check the TAFS and METARS for the return trip, but as has already been pointed out by a few posters, at Le2K you can just hand a paper plan to the airport reception staff as you are booking in and they'll file it for you.

[IO540]

I've personally resorted to handed in FPL's in a number of Baltic type places recently simply because it's such a faff to dig out the laptop, get an internet connection, stagger through AFPEX's login and possible download slam, and so on. All this would be different if AFPEX worked on iPad, of course, but it ... doesn't.

My Q would be: if you haven't got an internet connection, how do you get weather?

IME, a common procedure is to plan a flight the day before (or earlier), make a provisional go/no-go decision the night before, file the flight plan then, and make the final go/no-go decision on the morning of the flight (some of the best data is not available the day before). One needs internet for all of that, generally.

One can run Afpex on the Church of Jobs gadgets but only via a remote desktop solution like Citrix. The client end appears easy enough but setting up the server is not something you want to do at home :) But there is no point. I use EuroFPL, with Afpex as a backup, but haven't had to use Afpex for more than a year.

[Haka99]

Hi All,

Very many thanks for all of the feedback and good to know the paper form at LFAT is still an option! We will be landing back at a non ATSU designated airport in the UK for the return flight, do you know how we close the flight plan that we filed in France?

Thanks....

[patowalker]

See item 8 here:

Safety Sense Leaflet 20: VFR Flight Plans | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1174)