Private chopper coppers

[eltonioni]

South Yorkshire is losing its MD902 and it's brought up a semi-serious conversation over a lunch.

Since the Air Ambulance's are all (rightly) run through charitable donation are there any real obstacles standing in the way of operating a police helicopter in the same way?

[Osprey35]

Who would donate the money???? :O

[helihub]

Very good question, eltonioni, although it need not be just charitable donation, it could be through corporate sponsorship. It it reminds me that Dorset have long since carried sponsor logo(s) - see the red logo for Key Industrial Equipment (http://www.key.co.uk/) below...

http://www.ukemergencyaviation.co.uk/user/cimage/G-BXZK-006.jpg

[Spit161]

Interesting question.
However, I'm not sure they'd get the same amount of support as the Helimed!;)

cheers,
Jake.

[Geoffersincornwall]

When I put together the proposal for the AA in Cornwall in 1986 the contract with the local NHS Trust made provision for us to raise corporate sponsorship. This had a great deal of potential but unfortunately the process was hi-jacked by the local NHS manager who did it all wrong and we never did get much serious interest. Had they followed the WH Smith guidelines for corporate sponsorship which were available at the time through WH Smiths the book and paper shop, they would have been pointed in the direction of professional sponsorship raisers who specialise in working with marketing people to generate the required funds.

Maybe if funds were raised under the banner of 'Civil Defence' and made available to Police and Fire/Rescue you could get some takers. My motto has always been that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing..... and of course nothing ventured nothing gained. If I had listened to all the nay-sayers back in '86 the we would never have gotten the UK's first AA of the ground and look what happened in it's wake.

G.:ok:

[Planemike]

Surely Police helicopters should be funded from taxation if they are really needed.

Planemike

[EddieHeli]

As the nature of the police helicopter is seeing things from the air they don't need IFR capability so should use singles like they do in the USA bringing the costs down considerably. I'm sure some jobs can be done by cheaper fixed wings as well like the Northumbria Islander used to.

In the same way that the police now run sensible cars like Skodas and Cheaper 4x4s when they previously nearly always had top of the range BMW's and Range Rovers there must be a case for running cheaper helicopters.

Look at the success of Mike Smith's Robbo TV ships and tell me why that couldn't be used in a lot of the Police requirements. (Legislation apart - which could be changed).

[Gemini Twin]

A well equipped fixed wing like the Soloy Sentinal can do 90% of the patrol and surveilance work performed by a twin engined helicopter, at a fraction of the price. That's up front procurement price, maintenance and overhaul price, crew training price and fuel price. As suggested above 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing, well 90% of something is much better than 100% of nothing, especially if it's at 40% of the cost.

[ShyTorque]

Isn't there something called "victim tax"?

Gemini twin, it's an old argument. It's ineligible for police work in UK because of the legal requirement for two engines.

[Gemini Twin]

Bit of a Catch 22 situation then, when the only thing regulated to do the job is beyond the means of taxpayer funding.

Maybe sponsorship is the answer - "This law enforcement flight sponsored by Ambien. Woken up a nights by police helicopters try Ambien for a perfect nights sleep".

[Tankertrashnav]

Whatever happened to that Optica thingy? Saw one in the air once near Brum, think the local plod were trialling it at the time. Cheaper to operate than your average chopper I'd have thought?

[4468]

EddieHeli:
the nature of the police helicopter is seeing things from the air they don't need IFR capability so should use singles like they do in the USA bringing the costs down considerably. I'm sure some jobs can be done by cheaper fixed wings as well like the Northumbria Islander used to.

Whatever makes you think the 'twin' stipulation is driven by a requirement for an IFR capability? (Though if you think you only need IFR skills when you're in cloud, you are very wrong!)

The twin requirement is driven by the fact that the aircraft needs to operate over congested areas, by both day and night! You may wish to compare the relevant accident stats between UK police, and US police helos.

Having lost an engine over the centre of a very large northern city one dark night, at lowish level, I'm certainly glad I had two!

As well as being a police helicopter pilot over some considerable years, I also flew the Northumbria Islander. You and other posters here are correct that a fixed wing can do a large percent of the work, at a small percent of the cost. However it was definitely more difficult for a police officer to give accurate commentaries, and would certainly have benefited from the addition of a nitesun or similar.

Shame South Yorks have pulled the plug. I hope their short sightedness isn't a sign of things to come!

[Coconutty]

.... are there any real obstacles standing in the way of operating a police helicopter in the same way? YES ! - there's this thing called "Airwave" - the Police radio communication system :yuk:

Due to the security aspects of the system, a privately run organisation would not be permitted to
possess or use the equipment needed to communicate with "real" Police Officers on the ground :hmm:

Fixed wings have their limited uses, and could be cheaper to operate, but there are now only a couple left in operation - which says it all.
They need a runway to take off from and land on ( with the inevitable waiting for clearance to do so - unless it's a life threatening job ),
they can't land at the scene of most incidents, e.g. to arrest or Casevac, or hand over urgent recordings etc,
and can't hover very well without a reasonable head wind !

After Communications funding would definitely be the next biggest hurdle :
Aircraft purchase / leasing costs, Role equipment purchase, Operating base, Staff including UEO & Deputy,
Chief Pilot, Line Pilots, Observers, TRAINING, Maintenance, and obtaining an AOC of some sort from the CAA.

In principle I like the idea of taxing the bad guys, but in reality how many of them could afford to pay
( and therefore wouldn't pay ) the DOC's for the flight time that led to their prosecution ?

Privately / Charitably run Police Air support Unit(s) ? Nice thought but hey - it ain't gonna happen :oh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[helihub]

Coconutty - IMHO you're missing the point eltonioni was trying to make. This thread is not about private operation of police helicopters, but the feasibility of an alternate funding model.

Plane Mike - I think you're missing a point too. The same "pay for it from taxation" could be said for UK EMS, indeed many do, but the UK EMS sector is much the better for not being tied to the Government purse strings.

The only difficulty I see with sponsorship is the implied approval of the sponsoring company by the police force concerned. What if there was a police helicopter sponsored by News International, for example....?

Another funding idea sprung to mind. In the USofA there are some law enforcement units whose helicopters have been bought out of the "proceeds of crime" ie the cash realisation of selling assets which were obtained by convicted parties through illegal means. Where does that money go to in the UK?

[Fortyodd2]

Tankertrashnav,
"Whatever happened to that Optica thingy?"
It crashed and killed. Doesn't matter how cheap it is to buy or run, if it crashes it becomes the most expensive thing ever.

4468 - S.Yorks didn't pull the plug, they had it pulled for them. The hole that it leaves is too big, too busy and too far away from the surrounding forces to pick up anything other than planned/slow time tasks. More than half of S.Yorks tasking is within 5 mins of their base.

[ShyTorque]

Whatever happened to that Optica thingy?

It was infamously crashed by a Hampshire Policeman turned pilot; he turned downwind at low airspeed and stalled it in, near Guilford I think. Killed all on board.

The design was never taken up and the company went out of business.

[Planemike]

Helihub.........

Agree with you about the indepedence of UK EMS funding. In general it works fairly well and the public can see what they are contributing to.

To my mind the Police is an entirely different scenario. We pay our taxes, national and local and in exchange, among other things, we expect to receive protection, part of it provided by the Police. If the Police can't afford to run a helicopter, so be it: we as a society have to manage without.

Really wonder if ALL the Police helicopters can be justified and are necessary. One has the feeling there maybe a bit of "one upmanship" among some of the Police hierachy. One force has a helicopter so the neighbouring forces feel they can't be left out.

Me being cynical........maybe !!

Planemike

[Geoffersincornwall]

In my opinion we could benefit from the concept of Public Service Helicopters which take on a support role for ALL the emergency services. We need dedicated SAR and HEMS (AA) but there is a role for a good medium/light twin that provides a SAR-Support, AA-backup and 'support to the civil power'.

There are role models in France (Protection Civile) and Germany (Katastrofenschutze). Our problem is the turf war syndrome of "that's my patch - hands off.

There are various roles that police choppers perform that could legitimately be done by such an organisation even if it is 'commercial' rather than para-public such as missing person searches (maybe 30% of police hours?? just guessing!!) and back-up medevac, Police-type phot missions (subject to security issues I know but that could be covered by the disciplinary code for all involved a la Police Community Officers/Special Constables). Maybe some surveillance and assistance to the Fire and Rescue service. Moving their casualty extraction equipment by way of rapid response is an issue I know.

Sponsorship of community help in this way is surely acceptable.

G. :)

[Gemini Twin]

"Really wonder if ALL the Police helicopters can be justified and are necessary. One has the feeling there maybe a bit of "one upmanship" among some of the Police hierachy. One force has a helicopter so the neighbouring forces feel they can't be left out."

Planemike. Hit the nail on the head.

[TipCap]

"Whatever happened to that Optica thingy?"

ShyTorque

The original Optica for the Hants Police Force based at Lee-on-Solent was carrying out Police observation work over Ringwood. It seems as if during operational orbits the Optica went into a deep stall from which they never recovered. The pilot held a PPL (dispensation from CPL for Police Aircraft)

They got another Optica but I seem to remember that it had an engine failure on take off on RW23 at Lee and contrary to all training the pilot managed to turn it 240 degrees and glided to land on RW 35. I think it was Bob R that was the pilot but my memory may not be up to scratch.

I was based at L-o-S with the CG SAR when we took over from the Navy in 1988. I remember that the Optica was still there until 1990 but after Bob's incident the Optica was replaced by a twin engined BN Islander

JohnW

[Senior Pilot]

Whatever happened to that Optica thingy? Saw one in the air once near Brum, think the local plod were trialling it at the time. Cheaper to operate than your average chopper I'd have thought?

A quick search (yes, it still works ;) ) gives this post (http://www.pprune.org/6643330-post1815.html) on the 16th August, explaining the demise of the Optica:

Mimma, Actually it was the "Edgely Optica", the reverse of what you called it. I flew in it several times when we were trialing it and the only good thing I can say about it was that it gave a superb view.

But it was single engined, so could not be used for Police work in the UK. It wasn't very fast, we lost several speeding cars that got away from us when we were struggling with a head wind. It couldnt fly very slow either.I recall that it was fairly critical on C of G. The Pilot would adjust the amount of metal weights that he carried in the tail according to the weight of the single observer.

It could never carry all the Police Role equipement that Police a/c are expected to carry today.

In other words no use at all as a Police Aircraft but probably OK for Pipeline and powerline inspections.

I recall one very strange aspect of flying in the optica. The cabin was very low slung at the front of the machine. As a result the seats themselves were only about .7 of a metre above the runway so at take off, and even more at landing, you were almost expecting a burning sensation in your rear end as it scraped along the ground! The view forward was outstanding, the prop of course was behind you in its strange cowl. The engine noise was odd too, more of a loud buzz than anything else.

Altogether a weird machine but one with a very limited aplication. And because of those many restricting limitations, one that was never really going to succeed.

whitehead06

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for all who posted in reply to my query on the Optica. Only saw one once, in 1989 I think, and certainly shan't be seeing another, by all accounts!

[Coconutty]

Helihub,
IMHO you're missing the point

Aren't I stupid interpreting the thread title "Private Chopper Coppers"
and thinking that it wouldn't be operated by proper Police Officers ? Sorry :ugh:

How about changing the title ( for dummies like me ) to :
"Private / Charitable funding for Police Air Units" ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[ShyTorque]

How about changing the title ( for dummies like me ) to :
"Private / Charitable funding for Police Air Units"

Yes, we could send them our old clothes or something....like they do locally for the Air Ambo.

Trouble is, the scamming bar stewards who arrange the so-called charity collections round here are after stuff for the wrong county despite the "Support YOUR local air Ambulance" logo on the bags. :hmm:

[helihub]

Coconutty - I agree the thread title is misleading

[eltonioni]

Coconutty, whatever you might think of the title :rolleyes: the police radio system wouldn't be an obstacle just like it isn't now. Plenty of civilians use police comms and anyone that's got a CAP413 paperweight is perfectly able to use anything that's required of a 19 yo constable.

In any case, I can't see any difference to current operations with its mix of civilian and plod resources. It's the private funding model that the AA's / RNLI use that's interesting to me.

Just look at all them logos.
http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/ambulance/dsc10329.jpg


A combined service certainly has attractions. Might it attract the wrong sort of attention (especially when on the ground) if the same machine is used for both life saving and scrote nabbing?

[J.A.F.O.]

Tankertrashnav

Don't be so sure, I saw BOPO and John Edgley last summer and both seemed in fine form.

Optica designer seeks manufacturing partners to relaunch aircraft (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/09/13/315743/optica-designer-seeks-manufacturing-partners-to-relaunch.html)

[[email protected]]

I seem to remember that it was Hampshire Police insisting (to save costs) that the Optica could be flown by a police officer trained as a pilot rather than a pilot trained as a police officer and that low (PPL) level of experience was a contributing factor to the crash.

[aeromys]

Strangely the AAIB recorded the Optica accident in the Helicopter category -

Air Accidents Investigation: 1/1986 G-KATY (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/1_1986_g_katy.cfm)

[Planemike]

A combined service certainly has attractions. Might it attract the wrong sort of attention (especially when on the ground) if the same machine is used for both life saving and scrote nabbing?

If the Police cannot afford to operate a helicopter from their own resources then they have to manage without. Mixing up life saving with Police operations is just not viable.

The majority of the public are happy to support EMS and other life saving operations but just cannot see them putting their hands in their pockets for the local Force helicopter, and why should they?

Planemike

[Geoffersincornwall]

I think you are coming at the problem from the wrong direction. A 'Public Service' Helicopter is one that is staffed by folk who are not Policemen but provide airborne support for them in certain roles that are not associated (directly) with crime. A valuable role is searching for missing persons and there are other roles that can be added that will assist the Fire Service (those that were associated with the London Fire Service Bk117 trial can attest to its potential), the medical services (taking the local AA out of service for long distance inter-hospital transfers denies that service to the local population).

The crews can have Community Service Officer status or even be Special Constables but the prime purpose is not to fight crime directly by getting involved in feeling collars but indirectly by making resources available on the ground that would otherwise be consumed in ground searches. Just look at the vast numbers of cops that used to be called in for such searches. Photography and some surveillance can also be undertaken along with overhead control and command roles during major incidents such as fires and floods etc.

Having been intimately involved with HEMS, Police Ops and SAR I know a little bit about the subject and having had a number of fruitful discussions with the management of the London Fire Service some years ago I have some understanding of their problems too.

A Public Service (Civil Defence) Helicopter Unit (PSHU) has a lot to offer so please don't discard the idea out of hand. As with the AA and the RNLI service it's not the idea that is the problem, its not the funding concept that is the problem - it's getting started that is the hurdle. Trying to initiate the service with any kind of government funding will not work because those who hold the purse strings (Police Forces, Fire Service, Local Government and Central Government) will not part with monies that are committed elsewhere and because the 'turf-war' element that characterises our public services prevents cross-service co-operation.

We solved the problem in the AA world by direct action. Stephen Bond personally agreed to give me a Bo105, suitably modified for HEMS, free of charge for 3 months and when we went to the local NHS and said you can have it free they were unable to resist and we got the go-ahead. The 3 months became 5, then 9 then 12 and then we were self funding and the knock-on effect around the country has to be seen to be believed. All based on actual performance and local public support.

We just need the opportunity to prove it can work and I am sure the model will catch on.

G. :ok:

[eltonioni]

Thanks G, very informative.

Can anyone give a quick % breakdown of utilisation for different police heli tasks - ie crime related tasks, SAR, incident support, etc?

I appreciate that different forces will have different profiles but an indication would be interesting when thinking of the public service aspects.

[J.A.F.O.]

Geoffers, interesting post.

[PANews]

Tip Cap you have the story correctly and it was Bob R in charge.

There were various further attempts to bring the Optica back over the years but they all more-or-less failed on technicalities. It was a great concept but poorly engineered from the start. The main fault with major incident 2 was not engine failure but fan failure.... it had a pusher fan.... the assembly just disintegrated. After sitting at Lee for a couple of years the same airframe went off to a succession new 'manufacturers' [FLS being one] who used it as the prototype for things that simply never happened. It did a couple of Farnborough's but I do not think any more were ever built new, it was just the existing stock repainted.

They did improve it and actually got a FLIR turret fitted but it never got its act together in time for the market. The Uk market is long lost [one engine] and even the US Border Patrol plan [Optica Scout to be built in Texas to patrol the southern borders replacing Piper Cubs etc] foundered shortly after the project was launched at the HAI Heli-Expo over 5 years ago.

That 'great concept' angle will probably mean it will reappear from time to time but I think we need to just see it as a 'haunting'..... it will only be a niche project.

[zorab64]

eltonioni - you're quite correct that different areas will produce different profiles. As a rule of thumb, I think you'd find the closer a unit is situated to a large metropolis, the higher the crime element will be. Generally, I would estimate that you're looking at and on-task figure of around 30:30:20% for Crime; Searching for vulnerable/missing people (we can't do "Rescue") and other/planning/photographic etc. The remaining 20% can be spread around, but would also include maybe 5% training.

Much/most of this is being discussed at some length in the Police Budget Cuts thread, so I'll refrain from repeating stuff from there!