Mail: "RAF & RN Pilots In The Cockpit On Your BA Holiday Jet"

[SoleilRumRation]

Royal Air Force and Royal Navy pilots in the cockpit on your British Airways holiday jet (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/article-2025662/Royal-Air-Force-Royal-Navy-pilots-cockpit-British-Airways-holiday-jet.html)

FlyBritishAirways's Channel - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/FlyBritishAirways)

BA Recruitment (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/baweb1/tpl_ba01.asp?s=MvXuAFcPnEQvSsEnk&jobid=34103,9834343446&key=31864813&c=124834543498&pagestamp=seewnmqeowcdieyjws)

[MaroonMan4]

No real story here......we have always known that the recent pilot redundancies will result in a farce for the MoD. At least we have kept the FRI (as the RN have put their's on hold) as sadly this is exactly where we will be again in a couple of years, more FRIs or scrabbling around to keep our experience from haemorrhaging to the airlines.

Does AMP get it yet-800 BA pilots, 400 ab initios with 400 from RAF/RN and other sources. Let's assume that the not all 400 will come from RAF/RN, but from other airlines providing BA with a ready pool of pilots - the Virgin, Monarch, Easy Jets will soon mop up the remaining RAF/RN aircrews, especially as the recent Air France airspeed blockage/stall is allegedly citing basic aircrew flying experience (rather than over reliance on automation) as a possible contributory factor-making the military training not only more cost effective for the airlines, but also aware that automation comes after many hours of rudimentary flying skills (regularly practiced).

We will always get the young kids through the door, keen as mustard, but however much the MoD attempts to run the RAF like a business it will always be out done by the more dynamic and true strategic HR planning found in the airline industry.

It will be our experience that will suffer, and in comparison to the private sector we are well and truly shooting ourselves in the feet as we erode service life that balance the pure financial incentives offered by the private sector. The 2000 hour plus, QHI/QFI/QWI/QHTI 3rd tour plus, married with working wife, couple of kids, 30-45......these are the ones that will just do a simple cost v life comparison and walk into very open (and increasingly accessible) airline arms.

The airlines managed to absorb the recession and plan for growth in a approximately 2-3 year timeframe. The MoD will be still be trying to sort it's short term, cost driven cutting activities for many years ahead. Hopefully those drawing parallels to the 1930s depression/recession are wrong, as otherwise the way Defence is going we will be in the same as 1936-which wasn't a good place, and this time we will not have the US to come to the rescue as they will be just as screwed as us.

[Trim Stab]

especially as the recent Air France airspeed blockage/stall is allegedly citing basic aircrew flying experience (rather than over reliance on automation) as a possible contributory factor-making the military training not only more cost effective


Err, one of the pilots was ex-military actually. The factors in that incident were more complex than you are implying here.

[Bob Viking]

I just love the comment that says "it's well known that military pilots make dangerous commercial pilots". Apparently we're all risk takers. Someone's been watching too much Top Gun I think!
Unless I'm wrong and he's right.
BV:eek:

[BEagle]

Err, one of the pilots was ex-military actually.

Oh really? Not according to the report. Which pilot do you allege was 'ex-military'?

[MaroonMan4]

Now steady on....

My point was purely observing that on reading industry publications (e.g. Flight) and attending some of the recent airline recruiting seminars that there appeared to be an active HR strategy to recruit as many ex-mil pilots as possible. There is a reported belief within the airline industry that due to the significant cuts in current and future mil aircrew types that this experienced pool would begin drying up at a time when many 60-65 year old airline pilots would be retiring coincidental with a marked increase in airline growth (especially SE Asia and Middle East).

There is also general comment that the way the military trains it's aircrew has a quality that is potentially cost prohibitive or unrealistic for the civilian sector, but a business model would benefit from a balanced mix of relatively cheap and inexperienced ab initios and more experienced ex military types.

At no stage was I pre-judging any Air France/Airbus inquiry or commenting on the skills/experience of those on the flight deck, and if this the way that this post is construed then I apologise and will remove.

I was purely highlighting that the airline industry is circling the shrinking pool of experienced aircrew with offers of a quality of life and financial remuneration that the MoD has no idea how to deal or compete with.

[lj101]

Dubois' co-pilots on Flight 447 were David Robert and Pierre-Cedric Bonin.
Robert, 37, joined Air France in 1999 and had 6,600 flight hours with the airline, becoming qualified to fly A330s seven years ago, in April 2002.
Bonin, 32, joined Air France in 2004. He had 3,300 flight hours and had qualified to fly A330s last June.

TrimStab

Which pilot at the controls was ex military? - assuming the above is correct, their ages don't give much room for joining the military and going through flying training before joining the airlines.

[LFFC]

There are some important points here; not least of which is that the airlines are rediscovering the fact that military training brings with it experience that, until recently, has been in short supply in the civilian training world. The advent of Upset Training (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/18/351831/klm-student-pilots-to-undergo-mandatory-upset-training.html) is the result of hard lessons learnt:

The concept of required upset training has been gaining momentum in the USA, spurred by the February 2009 loss-of-control accident of a Colgan Airways Bombardier Q400 in New York.

Moreover, several British airlines have realised that it's hard to expand their fleet by just pumping new, low-experienced pilots into the right hand seat and promoting their first officers to captaincy. You can, of course, do that to a certain extent, but overall experience levels drop very quickly if you do. The answer is to buy-in experience and the military is an easy option because they don't compete on pay and conditions at the top end of the scale.

[hudjunkie]

This BA recruitment phase will, I think, be a double Whammy for the MOD. Not only will front-line operators, who have a significant amount of experience, be leaving to join as part of the 400 First Officer slots. But we also have a number of students in the training pipeline who have seen a recent cull amongst their colleagues, and are hearing rumours of what the next phase will entail. They have seen a significant number of those who were cut, being offered Cadetships with Cathay. So with the BA recruitment push with 400 Cadetships on offer, you can't blame the guys for considering their options, and if I was 22 again and part way through an ever restricting training pipeline I know which option I would be taking....!:ooh:

I spoke a week or two ago with an AMP briefing team member who told me that the increase in PVRs was only a PPRUNE rumour, I was able to quote him the names of 7 colleagues who had PVRd in the past 10 days. However he was having none of it, and this was before the BA announcement. You just couldn't make it up.....:hmm:

[BEagle]

I spoke a week or two ago with an AMP briefing team member who told me that the increase in PVRs was only a PPRUNE rumour, I was able to quote him the names of 7 colleagues who had PVRd in the past 10 days. However he was having none of it...

Not surprising, given that these are standard issue at 'Manning', it would seem:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/LaLaHeadband.jpg

Also ideal for one-sided conversations involving the Axminster Shuffle.....:uhoh:

[Anonystude]

As one of the recently 'deselected' studes I know one or two of my colleagues have had phone calls from a few major flag-carrying airline recruitment departments. The future may be bright, but it sure as hell isn't Light Blue any more.

[JliderPilot]

Just been chatting to the 'Air Mann FgJOs AT AAR' bloke trying to get a firm PVR date and he tried to spin me a story that overall there had not been a lot of PVRs and he also did not see any significant increase since the BA advert.

Something smells fishy to me. The only people to gain out of this are the airlines, yes experienced mil guys will get jobs but the pay has been forced downward in the last few years.

[ralphmalph]

Had a look online tonight at GAI 1028 AL3, couldnt find a later AL.

I might be reading it incorrectly; but it seemed to me that RAFCARS and Managed Path are the same thing.

Also on the Annex used to register it mentions the point at which you exit, it lists PVR as an option?

Does anyone have a copy of a later AL? I looked on the main RAF Intranet, so I imagine this is the latest.

Regards

Ralph

[Biggus]

Question:


If, as Manning now appear to be saying, there has been no appreciable increase in recent pilot PVR numbers, why has the pilot PVR time just been increased from 6 to 12months?





Answers on a post card to:

RAF Manning
..........
.........
........

[LFFC]

"That's the spirit Blackadder; if nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through". BAAAAH

:D

[racedo]

Why does the age old joke about German ATC abusing a Pilot about having the been here and the "Yes but it was 1944 and I wasn't landing reposte" come to mind when I hear this......

Not met a pilot yet who wanted to take off and not land...............guess that idea never enter Mail journos head.

[brit bus driver]

Agree - old news, but can confirm that the grass is, in fact grass, not astro-turf! Still, 800 over ten years still won't get you into the LHS!!

[LFFC]

As noted a couple of weeks ago, people are now realising just how important real handling experience is.

Pilots are so reliant on computers they are forgetting how to fly, airline safety group warns. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031883/Pilots-reliant-computers-forgetting-fly-airline-safety-group-warns.html)

[Basil]

military pilots make dangerous commercial pilots
Some rag quoted a BA manager as saying mil pilots were 'mavericks'.
I made an issue of it and, funny old thing, they both denied and blamed each other.

[4Greens]

Some potential pilots join the military for a short service career in order to get into civil airlines the cheap way.

[Lockstock]

Some potential pilots join the military for a short service career in order to get into civil airlines the cheap way.

Some pilots fly for free to gain hours in order to get into civil airlines the cheap way.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

4 Greens,

If you have a short service career nowadays, it won't qualify you for a "cheap" way into the airlines! Especially not if you end up on fast jets.

[MrBernoulli]

Some potential pilots join the military for a short service career in order to get into civil airlines the cheap way. Really? Who is it 'cheap' for? Serving in the military is certainly not 'cheap' - it subjects one to an awful lot that just doesn't happen in civvie street, so I wouldn't call it 'cheap' at all. It is pretty 'expensive' in terms of pressures, demands and standards.

[fincastle84]

As a long retired Nimrod Nav (voluntary redundancy 1993........yippee!) I spent nearly 30 years in a rear seat being kept aloft for over 7,000 hours at varying altitudes & attitudes & in all weathers. I have always had the utmost respect for the members of the 2 winged master race who kept my *rse out of the 'oggin & the training regime that provided them with the necessary skills so to do.

It gives me great satisfaction & confidence that many of these gentlemen are now occupying the left hand seats of several major world airlines. BA & its customers will gain a great deal from the MOD's loss.

[talkpedlar]

.. just to be 100% clear, the present BA Future Pilot Plan is expressly for applicants with little or no flying experience. Period.. not negotiable!
Good Luck and God's speed to you all :ok:

[FODPlod]

Any RW vacancies?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Ditched_helicopter.jpg/220px-Ditched_helicopter.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ditched_helicopter.jpg)

[Wwyvern]

Ah, I see that the sea anchor tested so many year ago actually worked in other than test conditions. The open box under the co-pilot's window was where it was positioned.

It was designed to keep the helicopter from falling over at engine shut down on the water.

Icons available do not include a smug grin, unfortunately.

[Redcarpet]

Talkpedlar,

You seem to have omitted the fact that BA have just finished their latest DEP application process and that they are still using the managed path scheme to accept applications from service pilots. With that in mind I would suggest your good luck wishes should be directed to the MOD/RAF. :ok:

[talkpedlar]

..you are quite right but I was simply referring to the current recruitment campaign (FPP).. I appreciate your response and sentiment all the same. TP

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Talkpedlar,

Where does it say that "the present BA Future Pilot Plan is expressly for applicants with little or no flying experience. Period.. not negotiable!"

A quick glance at the site says that you can't apply if you have a CPL or have begun an integrated scheme of training with an FTO. No mention of even significant levels of military flying experience?

You can also apply up to 55. So I might dust off my A level certificates, polish the 1700-odd hours in my logbook, and give it a shot! Be fun to be a cadet, I'm sure.

[talkpedlar]

BA Recruitment website for FPP..quote..

"aspiring pilots who have little or no flying experience..."

Seems clear enough... they say elsewhere that upto PPL is acceptable..

Just trying to help.. TP

[old-timer]

Personally speaking I'd prefer to have Mil' trained aircrew up the pointy end :D
:D :D

[racedo]

Personally speaking I'd prefer to have Mil' trained aircrew up the pointy end

I'm just happy that the Pilot knows which is the pointy end :E

[old-timer]

The clever part is keeping the pointy end pointy & not to blunt it by hitting anything hard - also to point it in the right general direction too :D:D