Somali pirates caught by Russian Navy

[tonker]

And shortly to be having dinner with Spongebob....

LiveLeak.com - RUSSIAN NAVY CAPTURES SOMALIAN PIRATES (Expeditious disposal!)

[TBM-Legend]

No 'softcock' tactics there. How about inviting the crew of that DDG into London for a bit of "shore leave"...:ok:

[500N]

TBM

Was thinking exactly the same thing.:ok:


Pr00ne
The Video says they had 18th and 19th Century laws to go by,
do you consider this true or was it murder ?

The majority of people I talk to over the last year reckon the Russians
did well doing what they did. Interesting that no "do gooders" in the world have tried to take them to task over this and other actions (or quick justice) carried out against Pirates.

I wonder why that is ?

Pity the "Western" navies have one hand tied with restrictive ROE's.

A few more of "Seal triple shot" type justice where they don't return from a trip and a fair few might decide it might not be worth it.

[TBM-Legend]

the "Pirates" only understand one law and that's the law of the gun. :}

Summary punishment and execution is a'OK by me under these circumstances. Look at what is going on in Somalia itself. They show no regard for human life there...

The west is soft.:ugh:

[dallas]

Much is down to reputations; if you've got the Russians or Chinese feeling your collar I imagine you'd be pretty scared. If it's someone more fluffy you're probably due some medical treatment, a hot meal and could maybe discuss asylum.

[Jobza Guddun]

I wonder if the Russians remembered to take those Somalis with them when they went back to their ship...

500N,
Watched it through this site but following your tip...:ok:
no tears here I'm afraid!! You sow what you reap...

[500N]

I think the US is the only "Western" country to really kick some ass
and those it does capture process quickly.

"Five men convicted of piracy after trying to capture a US Navy ship were found guilty in November in a Norfolk, VA court. The sentence was issued earlier today by Judge Mark Davis. Not only are these men the first to be found guilty of piracy in the US since 1820, but have been given the longest sentence in US history for the crime (the last guy was hung). They will serve a minimum of life in prison for piracy and the judge tacked on another 80 years for firearms charges, just for good measure.
The Somali men are the first to be tried in a US court since the sudden boom of pirate activity in the Gulf of Aden starting in March 2010. But there will be more to come, as 13 suspected pirates have been indicted for the murder of the passengers on a private US yacht and will soon join their countrymen."


Why oh why do other countries get so tied up in appeals, rulings et al,
all BS.

Maybe a few Apache sorties / live fire "exercises" wouldn't go astray.

.

[500N]

Jobza
"I wonder if the Russians remembered to take those Somalis with them when they went back to their ship..."

Did you read the text underneath the Video ?

[sitigeltfel]

Why do you lie to me, this is not a fishing boat?
There is no indication the pirates were on board when their boat was sunk.

One can only hope!

[500N]

sitigeltfel

Agreed, but when that video first came out quite a while ago,
a fair amount of comment was also available.


Secondly, would you videotape it if you did what they did ?
I certainly wouldn't. I think it was a sensible idea not to.
Just look at the Flak the Israelis got into when they raided
the boat running the Gaza blockade - all because of a bloody video.

.

[pr00ne]

500N,


Old news and you are way off with what actually happened.

Nobody was shot in cold blood. If they had been then it would indeed be murder and I wouldn't like to be the next Russian crewman to be captured by a Somali pirate.


Sorry to satiate your pathetic blood lust.

The Russian sank the boat in exactly the same way that many navies have, including the Royal Navy.

[green granite]

The reason we don't arrest pirates is:

In 2008 the British Foreign Office advised the Royal Navy not to detain pirates of certain nationalities as they might be able to claim asylum in Britain under British human rights legislation, if their national laws included execution, or mutilation as a judicial punishment for crimes committed as pirates. :ugh::ugh:

[matkat]

500N the USA is not the only country to do this, a very good friend of mine works for a company that specialises in anti piracy protection he tells me that if any pirates are caught the never make it back to shore must be those old boats the pirates use are very leaky and dangerous don't you know:D

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe pirates should be landed at the nearest 'friendly' base and quietly tried there. I am sure some US judge would be happy to fly out to DG. They could even set up a camp there and save the cost of flying them around the world.

[Fareastdriver]

I am sure some US judge would be happy to fly out to DG

You would get a load of fluffies here complaining because it is British territory. They would be flown here by private aircraft so that their asylum applications could be processed in comfort.

[barnstormer1968]

I find this quote very interesting indeed:

"Nobody was shot in cold blood. If they had been then it would indeed be murder and I wouldn't like to be the next Russian crewman to be captured by a Somali pirate.


Sorry to satiate your pathetic blood lust."

I wonder if anyone has told the Russians this?
From my own living memory, as well as factual history (but not of the openly discussed kind) I don't think anyone has told the Russians about this 'murder' business, as they have shot/killed quite a few in cold blood (including their own civilians and military).
It must be great to live in fluffy-land, where quoting soft Western morals is supposed to change the way that things have/do happen in real life.

This attitude reminds me of the many protests I see in the UK about third world or Middle Eastern leaders.....I am always bemused why these 'die hard' protesters have meetings in my pretty safe country with its democracy, freedom of speech and unarmed police....Why don't they protest in the country they are accusing of all kinds of nasty business!.....:E

EDITED TO ADD: Of course I can't personally say if anyone WAS or WAS NOT shot in cold blood, as I was not actually there:ok:

[500N]

Pr00ne - I never said they were "shot" and I don't have a "pathetic blood lust."
I was only using the Gaza ship video as an example of when NOT to video things - like on base sometimes, what goes on "behind the wire" stays behind the wire !!!

I somehow don't think the Russians worry too much about the "next Russian crew man". The Russians and the US will do what they do, again and again.

I just believe summary justice is sometimes the right message to send.
Although on a lower level, when our past PM put his foot down re Asylum Seekers, instead of a nice friendly welcome, they got the hard boot. Word spread back, the number of boats coming decreased. As soon as the Policy was changed, the flood gates opened.
Sometimes a bit of head banging and hard nosed activity does work.

Pr00ne - I somehow think you and I will never see eye to eye.

PN
This "island" camp etc is BS - We try it here with Asylum Seekers, creates MAJOR Problems because of the do gooders - and then the AS riot, set fire to the place and other general BS.

matkat
Good to hear.

.

[Load Toad]

Some of those pirates didn't look very....Somalian either.

Two video's innit?

[jamesdevice]

the Russians made a mistake in boarding the boat They should have simply sunk it. No questions then. Or evidence

[Really annoyed]

This has bugger all to do with Military Aviation, just like the two riot threads. They should all be on Jet Blast.

[BEagle]

The Sovs have always had rather a robust response to terrorism.

On September 30, 1985, four Soviet diplomats were kidnapped by the Islamic Liberation Organization in Beirut. One, Arkady Katkov, was killed by his captors while trying to escape. The other three, commercial attache Valery Mirkov, press attache Oleg Spirin and embassy doctor Nikolai Seversky, were released unharmed a month later after a relative of the terrorist leader's was kidnapped and killed by the Soviet KGB.

The terrorist leader's relative was actually his four-year-old son. A Spetsnaz team took the boy from his home. They then delivered the boy’s cut off ear to his mother with a video of the cutting. On the video was a message that if the remaining three Soviets were not released unharmed, the next video would be of the boy’s castration. The Soviets promised that if the diplomats were released, the boy would not be castrated.

The remaining diplomats were released. The Soviets then simply shot the boy in the back of the head in retaliation for the murder of Katkov. However, the KGB did keep its promise and the dead boy was not castrated.

After that, no Soviet diplomat in Lebanon was ever threatened again.

[500N]

Really annoyed
Re your post re Jet Blast, I don't disagree with you but we don't make or implement the rules.


BEagle
Very good example.

[TBM-Legend]

This has bugger all to do with Military Aviation, just like the two riot threads. They should all be on Jet Blast.

Well don't be a dork, don't read this thread.....:{

[hunterboy]

I seem to remember that Aeroflots SOP to hijacking was to resist to the death.
Perhaps if the West had had a similar SOP, billions of dollars, a couple of pointless wars and thousands of people would still be alive?

[The Heff]

I agree, this thread really needs something to do with Military Aviation to justify its position here, so voila...

‪Somali piracy surge: Spain, France send maritime patrol aircraft‬‏ - YouTube]

[TEEEJ]

The video has been doing the rounds for some time now with various dodgy claims that the pirates were handcuffed to the ship when it was sunk.

In the original video the Russians can be heard asking the crew who is Pakistani and later on asking for Iranians.

See following video for Russian news item.

Russian warship frees Iranians - YouTube

Investigation has revealed that all the suspected pirates are not from Somalia and some are fishermen from Iran and Pakistan. It is not clear whether Iranian and Pakistani fishermen are working as navigators for Somali pirates for monetary gains.

Also Russia is not able to decide, where and how to proceed with these suspected pirates.

Update: May 05

Russian missile destroyer Admiral Panteleyev has freed eight Iranians who were part of the 29 suspected pirates. It is reported that Iranians were kept as hostages by the suspected Somali pirates for more than three months.

From

Somali Piracy: Suspected Pirates are Also from Iran and Pakistan (http://www.marinebuzz.com/2009/05/03/somali-piracy-suspected-pirates-are-also-from-iran-and-pakistan/)

Russia was considering trying those detained.

Somali pirates could face trial in Russia | Russia | RIA Novosti (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090430/121388549.html)

In the end the Pakistanis and Iranians were returned to their respective countries.

Russia hands over Somali pirates to Middle East states — RT (http://rt.com/news/russia-hands-over-somali-pirates-to-middle-east-states/)

TJ

[overun]

Any one else remember the Royal Navy fat birds being snatched by the lranians ? With a frigate watching ?
lt wouldn`t have happened in Hornblower`s day.

[Scuttled]

Embarrassingly for the uk, a few weeks before exactly the same situation was engineered around the RN, some Royal Australian Navy personnel were threatened in the same manner.

The Aussies (literally) stuck up two fingers, pointed their cocked weapons and told the Iranians to go away. They did.

Made the RN, with it's hard won and impeccable fighting reputation, look tragic.

[overun]

Ah, what you don`t realise is that those parts of society that couldn`t speak their name earlier have to be included now, by law. And l, for one, object very strongly indeed about watering down our traditional strengths.

Mind, according to the young multi-millionare, never had a proper job in his life, Chancellor of the Exchequer, we are all in this " together".

l honestly don`t know whether to laugh, or start hoarding petrol bombs.

Half of our Members of Parliament forgot who they were representing the first time the bent expenses cheque arrived, the rest didn`t seem interested anyway, having been handed the "seat" by friends.

Democracy ?

[Navaleye]

i would like to propose some new ROE on sighting of a pirate Skiff.

"4-5 Engage!"
"6 rounds VT Fuse High"
"6 rounds DA"

Then sail away.

Thoughts?

[pr00ne]

Navaleye,


You'd just have committed murder.

[SASless]

Pr00ne.....why not at all!

He would have solved some problems most rikki tik....kept up the Gunnery Department's edge....and shown some good commonsense. No sense keeping ammunition around till you have to dispose of it by controlled detonation.

If we popped every Pirate boat and crew we ran across...Piracy would soon cease to be a problem.

Our Navy SEALs did fine with a one-two punch a while back as well.

[pr00ne]

SASless,


Sorry, it wouldn't solve anything, it would just mean that he was a murderer.

[hval]

Pr00ne,

To you a murderer, to me a saviour

[rh200]

Sorry, it wouldn't solve anything, it would just mean that he was a murderer.

If you killed enough of them, and if the probability of being killed versus success as a pirate was high it would.

Your only a murderer if its a illegal killing, just need to make sure your government crosses the t's and dots the i's before hand.

[500N]

"Sorry, it wouldn't solve anything, it would just mean that he was a murderer."

As rh200 said but

I would add, let them open fire or brandish weapons in a threatening manner
first, then you have legal right to defend.

If the Australian Gov't can "stem" the flow of refugee boats by playing hard line on policy, with the reverse effect after they relaxed the policy, imagine how it would shut off refugees if a few boats were sunk.

I reckon if you apply the same criteria to the Pirates and they stopped returning to home port, they would stop heading out.
.

[Lonewolf_50]

It must be great to live in fluffy-land, where quoting soft Western morals is supposed to change the way that things have/do happen in real life.
For pr00ne: I see no reason for the term "pirate" to not be synonymous with "target" given what pirates do.

Seem to recall the Royal Navy, among others, engaging in cannon shooting and ship sinking and killing for many long years, vis a vis pirates.

Do I now understand that you are, as a revisionist historian, asserting that the Royal Navy was naught but a collection of maritime murderers? I would hope not.

Granted, many pirates were captured and taken to hang, after summary judgment. But many also died on the bounding main.

Perhaps one ought to learn from history, rather than trying to rewrite it or simply ignore it. Piracy pays, at present, along the Somali coast. The trick is to change that calculus, to the point that piracy does not pay.

I seem to recall that the Americans decided to stop putting up with making piracy pay, and sent the flotillas to deal with the pirates along the Barbary Coast. It worked.

I suggest, again, learn from history about how to deal with pirates effectively. Huggy fluffy don't cut it.

[cazatou]

I have suggested it before - "Q Ships".

Just remember to raise Ensigns before opening rapid fire. It worked against U-Boats!!!

[Molemot]

Monday, June 1. 2009

Luxury Pirate-Hunting Cruise (http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/11581-Luxury-Pirate-Hunting-Cruise.html)

This was around a few years back; fantasy, I believe (so far!)

THE ULTIMATE ADVENTURE CRUISE

To The Point is excited to offer the ultimate adventure cruise along the pirate-infested coast of Somalia!

We board our luxury cruise ship in Djibouti on the Gulf of Aden near the entrance to the Red Sea, and disembark in Mombassa, Kenya seven adrenaline-charged days later.







http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate1.jpg

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate2.jpg


Starting at $5,200 per-person (double occupancy, inside room) and $6,900 (veranda complete with bench rest), you'll relax like never before.

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate3.jpg

That's because you are welcome to bring your own arsenal with you. If you don't have your own weapons, you can rent them from our onboard Master Gunsmith. Enjoy reloading parties every afternoon with skeet and marksmanship competitions every night!

But the best fun of all, of course, is Pirate Target Practice.

For the object of the cruise is to sail up and down the Somali Coast waiting to get hijacked by pirates. The weapons rental costs are as follows.

Rent a full auto M-16 for only $25/day with ammo attractively priced at $16 per 100 rounds of 5.56 armor-piercing:

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate4.jpg

On a budget? Rent a full-auto scope-mounted AK-47 for only $9/day with 7.62 ball ammo at $12 per 100 rounds:

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate5.jpg

Hello! Nothing gets a pirate's attention like a Barrett M-107 .50-cal sniper rifle; only $59/day with 25 rounds of armor-piercing ammo affordably priced at only $29.95.

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate6.jpg

Need a spotter? Our professional crew members can double as spotters for only $30/hour (spotting scope included, but gratuities are not.)

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Want to make a real impact? Rent an RPG for only $175/day with three fragmentation rounds included!

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Also included: Free complimentary night vision equipment - and throughout the night, coffee, pastries and snacks are always available on the main deck from 7pm until 6am.

Our deluxe package comes complete with gourmet meals and all rooms offer a mini-bar.

But that's not all! Twin mounted miniguns are available for rental at only $450.00 per 30 seconds of sustained fire!

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate9.jpg

We guarantee that you will experience at least two hijacking attempts by pirates or you'll receive an instant $1,000 refund upon arrival in Mombassa.

How can we make that guarantee? We operate at 5 knots just beyond 12 nautical miles off the coast of Somalia, thus in international waters where pirates have no rights whatever. In fact, we make three passes through the area's most treacherous waters to ensure maximum visibility by Somali "mother ships".

We repeat this for five days, making three complete passes past the entire Somali Coast. At night, the boat is fully lit and bottle rockets are shot every five minutes with loud disco music directionally beamed shoreside to attract maximum attention.

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate10.jpg

Testimonials from previous participants in the Somali Cruise:

"Six attacks in 4 days were more than I expected. I bagged three pirates, my wife nailed two, and my 12-year old son sank two boats with the mini-gun. This wonderful cruise was fun for the whole family" -- Fred D., Cincinnati, OH

"Pirates 0, Passengers 32! Well worth the trip! Can't recommend it highly enough!" -- Ben L., Bethesda, MD

"I haven't had this much fun since flying choppers in 'Nam. Don't worry about getting shot by pirates... they never even got close to the ship with the crap they shoot and their lousy aim... reminds me of a drunken juicer door-gunner we picked up from the motor pool in Phu Bai!" -- Dan J. - Denver, CO

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/pirate11.jpg

Come on board and bag your own clutch of genuine Somali pirates! But cabin space is limited so you need to respond quickly. Reserve your package before May 31st and get a great bonus - 100 rounds of free tracer ammo in the caliber of your choice. So sign up for the Ultimate Somali Coast Adventure Cruise now!

[Biggus]

Do Somali pirates fly the Jolly Roger...?


Or do those that advocate sinking pirates suggest naval forces open fire on any vessel fulfilling some of the criteria for a pirate vessel? Great - until the first time it goes wrong!

[Lonewolf_50]

Or do those that advocate sinking pirates suggest naval forces open fire on any vessel fulfilling some of the criteria for a pirate vessel? Great - until the first time it goes wrong!


Establishing the criteria need not be limited to a Jolly Roger.

But yes, I suggest under a reasonable identification protocol, weapons free upon identification and criterion met. Getting the "reasonable" agreed is, of course, the more difficult part.

It appears to me that the RoE, and criteria, vary based on what national ensign is being flown by patrolling frigates.

Maybe, given politics as is, that is the best that can be hoped for. Further that point, the Russians seem to have broken the code more handily than some others ...

[SASless]

A bit of wisom lost on the likes of Pr00ne and a few others that think the way he does.

"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid" - Gen Eisenhower.


Remember now...."The Yanks...over paid, over sexed, and over here!!

(....and the other half....The Brits...under paid, under sexed, and under Eisenhower!)

[tarbaby]

"Or do those that advocate sinking pirates suggest naval forces open fire on any vessel fulfilling some of the criteria for a pirate vessel? Great - until the first time it goes wrong!"

Who would be left to protest?

[FODPlod]

Or do those that advocate sinking pirates suggest naval forces open fire on any vessel fulfilling some of the criteria for a pirate vessel? Great - until the first time it goes wrong!

Who would be left to protest?

You never know, do you?Indian navy 'sank Thai trawler' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7749245.stm)
The owner of a Thai fishing trawler has said the Indian navy sank it off Somalia's coast last week after wrongly assuming it was a pirate "mother ship". Wicharn Sirichaiekawat said the Indian frigate had attacked the Ekawat Nava 5 while it was being hijacked by pirates. He said one of the crew had been found alive after six days in the Gulf of Aden, but that another 14 were missing...

Incidentally, if your policy was implemented, who would you prefer to see charged with murder by the International Criminal Court? The politicians who sanctioned it, the senior officers at HQ who directed the operation, the CO of the warship concerned, the sailors who were 'only obeying orders' when they pulled the trigger or everybody involved? Contrary to popular belief, even the Russians respect international law and don't kill 'pirates' out of hand:Russia hands over Somali pirates to Middle East states (http://rt.com/news/russia-hands-over-somali-pirates-to-middle-east-states/)
It has been revealed that Russia released 29 pirates held off the Somali coast to Iran and Pakistan three weeks ago, saying there was no legal basis to try them in Russia. “The pirates were handed over to representatives of Iran and Pakistan after an investigation that lasted about a week,” Interfax news agency quoted a source in the General Headquarters of the Russian Navy...

[Navaleye]

OK, let me see.
Taliban = Enemy. Nasty people with guns and RPGs which are ok to shoot on sight
Pirates = Enemy. Nasty people with guns and RPGs which are not ok to shoot on sight.

It just goes to show what a waste of time so called international law is likewise ECHR which should be abolished.
The pirates should know that they should be summarily executed if caught in the act.
Similarly, why are we not attacking their base facilities and “mother ships”?

[Biggus]

Why are pirates nasty people in the way the Tailban are? That may sound stupid or naive but it is an honest question.

While I don't follow the news with regard to piracy I don't believe they have killed many people.... please inform me to the contrary.

The pirates go out to hi-jack vessels. They capture the crews and release both the vessel and crew (largely unharmed) for a ransom. Killing the crews is not in their interest. They are effectively committing armed robbery...

By contrast the Tailban and other terrorist organizations go out to DELIBERATELY/INTENTIONALLY kill and maim in pursuit of their ideological objectives.


And you think both groups should be treated equally - in terms of being shot on sight? What next, people who walk on cracks in the pavement.....

[Airborne Aircrew]

What next, people who walk on cracks in the pavement.....

Oooh Errr... :uhoh:

[cazatou]

Biggus

"They are effectively committing armed robbery"

That is true - but you forget the rest:

They are holding their captives as slaves for whom they demand ransoms. If their demands are not met then they will dispose of their captives and sell the captured vessel and try again.

You forgot the Kidnapping - False Imprisonment - Blackmail and potentially Murder.

[Biggus]

caz,

So how many people have they actually killed...?

A (very) quick google search revealed only one example of killing, when 4 hostages were killed when Special Forces stormed the yacht they were being held on....but I could well be wrong. I asked for some facts if anyone has them.

Kidnapping, false imprisonment, etc.... Yes, not nice crimes, and I'm not saying that Somali pirates are nice people - but do these acts warrant them being "shot on sight" in the same league as terrorists. In the case of terrorists you are often trying to kill the terrorist to prevent further loss of life (e.g. suicide bomber). Taking life in self defence during an act of piracy is different from a "shoot on sight" policy, especially when you consider that many of the countries involved don't have a death penalty for their own convicted murderers.

A robust international court system for bringing any pirates caught to justice would seem to me to be a necessity, and not just for the case of piracy on the high seas.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Biggus where do you think the ransom money ends up and to what purpose?

Ransoms paid to date total 100s of millions of $. They are not investing in real estate and sending their kids to private schools.

If the Somali pirates are helping fund Al Qaida et al, as I believe has been shown clearly, then they are legitimate targets.

[Biggus]

So, were all the Irish pubs in the USA were the hat was passed round, "for the boys" in the 80s, "legitimate targets"? That is just one easy to pick example of sources of terrorist funding......


You may live in a world of black and white, but as I have gotten older (wiser?) I have come to appreciate that it just consists of various shades of grey.


Many people on here seem very gung ho, wanted to start shooting at anything that moves. Perhaps it is simply my own personal attitude. The British used to have a Minister for War, and War Office. That was changed in 1964 to the Ministry of Defence, to reflect that the British military was a defensive organization. That seems to have changed in the last few years, to the point were we initiate aggression if we feel we can justify it, GW2, Afghanistan, etc, on the grounds that the best way to defend ourselves is to attack the aggressor first, or in the interest of saving lives. Personally I consider that a potentially very slippery slope. It is no doubt just as well that I shall be retiring from the military soon.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

A Spetsnaz team took the (4 year old) boy from his home.They then delivered the boy’s cut off ear to his mother with a video of the cutting........ The Soviets then simply shot the boy in the back of the head........

Sorry, remind me again who the bad guys are?

[cazatou]

SASless

There were quite a few US Citizens who recognised the threat of the Fascist States and were prepared to lay their lives on the line to protect Democracy. The first RAF raid on Germany in 1939 included an American Pilot of 601 Sqn ( CR Davis) who subsequently became the 10th highest scoring RAF Fighter Pilot in the Battle of Britain.

[drustsonoferp]

There seems to be a mass of opinion here that implies we the UK are naturally "goodies", therefore may act with impunity against "baddies". How far may we progress down that path before forfeiting any right to an arbitrary "goody" status?

If we are some paragon of virtue in the world, we will never remain so if all virtue and reason is abandoned purely to make some act easier, whether that be piracy or entire nations that have managed to be labelled (or subject to a stratcomms/info ops action...) as "bad".

[500N]

"Sorry, remind me again who the bad guys are?"

The terrorists who did the original kidnapping.

.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Kidnapping and killing of adults vs kidnapping, torture and killing of toddlers.....I don't think so. There has to be an ethical and moral boundary somewhere that makes us better than them. Otherwise what is the point? Countering one atrocity with another reduces us to their level (or below).

[500N]

I don't agree with it, but from the Russian's point of view, the Terrorists were the bad guys, they decided to do the kidnapping, the Spetsnaz had a mission to achieve, they achieved the mission.

I would think the Russians believe in live by the Sword, die by the Sword and the terrorists brought it upon themselves.

The added bonus for the Russian's was that they didn't have any more kidnappings in the future.


"There has to be an ethical and moral boundary somewhere that makes us better than them. Otherwise what is the point? Countering one atrocity with another reduces us to their level (or below)."

It was only 60 odd years ago that we (the British) fire bombed Dresden including men, women and children.

.

[SOSL]

For once I couldn't agree more with what you said in a much earlier post, about # 20.

[Airborne Aircrew]

There has to be an ethical and moral boundary somewhere that makes us better than them. Otherwise what is the point?
Why do we always have to struggle to be "better than them"? We are better than them by defeating them, period. I don't give a rats behind whether I'm viewed as "better" nor do I care for the person making that judgement since they have an alarming tendency for being weak appeasers. Simple fact is that they are operating outside the law be it in the legal or moral sense and that automatically makes us "better". What we do subsequently is utterly irrelevant to the equation. The more harshly we deal with them the more of a deterrent it is to others. If it doesn't deter some others we do them the favour of sending them to their maker via the express lane. Job done.

[Fareastdriver]

About five or so years ago a Hydrofoil ferry was en-route from Hong Kong to Macau. On board were a considerable number of HK Chinese with wallets bulging ready for their sessions at the Macau casinos. The ferry stopped to help a Chinese fishing boat that was indicating that it was in distress. When the fishermen came on board they produced guns and held up the entire boat. After relieving the passengers of the valuables, mobile phones and disabling the ferry's radios they sped off in their boat up the Pearl river to China.

The Chinese police apprehended them a couple of weeks later. They were tried in Chinese courts so the Hong Kong justice system had nothing to do with it. The two ringleaders were executed and the hangers-on received long prison sentences (probably the worst option).

There has not been any problem on the Hong Kong-Macau ferry route since.

[FODPlod]

Simple fact is that they are operating outside the law be it in the legal or moral sense and that automatically makes us "better". What we do subsequently is utterly irrelevant to the equation.

So the forces of law & order, e.g. naval units performing maritime constabulary operations, should break the law as well to, er, enforce the law?

[Airborne Aircrew]

Absolutely. Laws are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools!

[Navaleye]

These people are terrorists, more accurately Illegal Enemy Combatants and as such have no rights in international waters. My example of blasting every pirate skiff out of the water is no different to our hero snipers taking out Taliban without warning. They fund terrorists that makes them terrorists plain and simple. If I was back in uniform and with suitable ROE, I would have no hesitation in exterminating every single one of them. That would solve the piracy problem once and for all as well as feed the fish.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Not sure we really want the fish eating that shi.. shi... stuff.;)

[pr00ne]

Navaleye,

They are not terrorists, or legal OR illegal combatants. They are either criminals or potential criminals. Your 'example' is sheer murder, pure and simple. As the average pirate does not kill anyone you are making the punishment far FAR worse than the actual criminal event, thus making a total mockery of the law.

By your warped logic, you'd better start ordering up strikes on Irish bars and pubs in New York and Chicago as well as every city in Saudi Arabia, from whence a great deal of terrorist funding has also originated.

So very glad that you are NOT currently in uniform.

[rh200]

As the average pirate does not kill anyone

Only because f#$%gen people keep paying up. Try going in there an releasing them and see what happens.

[Navaleye]

As the average pirate does not kill anyone

Tell that to the family of the brit they killed two weeks ago and then kidnapped his wife. Tell that to the family of disabled French woman they abducted at the weekend.

Your limp-wristed hug a pirate policy actually perpetuates the problem because while we remain ineffective and do nothing then they will carry on.

Until they either a) don't come back or b) wash up on a beach they will keep at it. My solution is cheap and would be very effective very quickly. It might do you out of some customers though :D

[overun]

l voted conservative, but did not support Cameron`s government ( not voted in, by any means ) they have managed to jail people for up to two years for handling a stolen bottle of milk.

The muslims caught red handed - no pun intended - wanting to explode the **** out of us were given less, dozens are out on the streets now.

Message ? leave the fat arsed, gay, troubled government ministers alone or else.

Pirates are easily dealt with, the Royal Navy had centuries of expertise before being emasculated by 9 to 5 fat butted social workers during Tony Blair`s years.

l do believe we are sinking but nobody seems to have noticed.

[overun]

Apart from Naveleye of course.

Anyone out there remember what happened in the former Yugoslavia during the early nineties when people were forced at gunpoint to chew off their family members private parts ?

900 miles from the UK. Bulldozers to hide the bodies.

lf my taxes don`t protect me, then l will do it myself.

[Navaleye]

The pirates have killed 11 merchant seamen alone just this year. 4.5 Engage!

I have had some flak for excessive use of ammunition. One round VT, two rounds Direct Action should suffice.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Pr00ne, I think I knew a soft, wet and drippy tomb driver in RAFG some years ago....not you I hope!

As the average pirate does not kill anyone

It's crap like that coming from the legal profession that leaves me cold and frightened. I've not got that long on this earth but I do worry for my sons and grandkids, and dearly hope that the nation's leaders eventually get the balls to stop the rot!

the punishment far FAR worse than the actual criminal event,

Perhaps you could expand or explain?
What defines an average pirate?

[Basil]

Countering one atrocity with another reduces us to their level
Otherwise known as destroying the will of the enemy to continue to wage war.
Perfectly acceptable response.
Kill every pirate on the spot. Commander of the intercepting vessel decides summarily whether they are pirates or not. I think I could make that decision and authorise the response.

Possibly consider, if helicopter available, taking the bad boys, suitably restrained, and dropping them over selected villages.

[500N]

Basil
"Possibly consider, if helicopter available, taking the bad boys, suitably restrained, and dropping them over selected villages. "

Shades of Rhodesia ?


While off topics, while mentioning Rhodesia, it is interesting to think how long it took the US / UK to come up with and made the V shaped hull to protect against mines when it was used in the 70's.
.

[FODPlod]

Pirates foiled as Navy strikes again (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/277712/Pirates-foiled-as-Navy-strikes-again)


BRITISH forces have foiled Somali pirates for the second time in days as their new aggressive policy gains momentum. Royal Marines from HMS Somerset boarded a large fishing dhow being used as a “mothership” base for launching armed raids on merchant shipping.

It was revealed yesterday that the frigate’s captain, Commander Paul Bristowe, ordered the attack after Somerset’s helicopter had shadowed the suspect vessel in the Indian Ocean 100 miles off the Somali coast. The boarding party rescued the Pakistani crew being held hostage by the Somali gang, who had seized the vessel. The pirates surrendered and were transferred to a US warship...

[Fareastdriver]

They had to transfer them to an American warship so that the fluffies in the UK couldn't give them asylum.

[SASless]

Your limp-wristed hug a pirate policy actually perpetuates the problem because while we remain ineffective and do nothing then they will carry on.


Amen Brother! Navaleye is bang on target!

Obama was going to send the FBI to the Maersk Alabama scene to negotiate with the Pirates....the on-site Commander used his ROE's to remedy the situation by turning the SEAL's loose. A few rifle shots to the heads of the Pirates and the Alabama Captain was a free Man.

Bravo Zulu to the SEAL's and the Naval Officer with a pair of balls!:ok:

[pr00ne]

rh200,

Of course people keep paying up, try going in and releasing them and you’d get a lot of people killed, THEN the price would really go up!

Romeo Oscar Golf.

Possibly, though it was pre air defence days. Not sure about soft and wet and drippy, my job was to turn SAM sites and the like to irradiated waste dumps, not sure that there was TOO much soft wet and drippy about that.

As to the 'crap coming from the legal profession', the City of London, where an awful lot of this is managed from, take advice from the military and the likes of the UN.
What defines an average pirate? Not entirely sure but of the roughly 250 folk currently held hostage I suspect that there is little danger of those folk dying unless the likes of Navaleye and SASless get their way.
Hundreds of crews and passengers have been hijacked over the years and very little harm has come to them.
Don’t get me wrong, I am no advocate of piracy nor do I condone it. Robust self protection is fine by me, including the use of deadly force if appropriate. I am just massively against the ridiculous and murderous nonsense of opening fire on a suspicious vessel with something like a 4.5” gun.

Basil,

They are not the enemy and no one is waging war. It’s criminal activity for financial gain.

Cold blooded murder as you suggest would achieve diddly squat. Thankfully you and the likes of you are not making any response and are authorising nothing of the sort.

Navaleye and SASless,

You are merely advocating discriminate cold blooded murder. You engage these suspected pirate vessels with the likes of a 4.5” gun and you are going to be killing innocents by the score. Take a look at the actual facts of recent captures and interventions. They are stack full of tales of these vessels containing captured hostages, crews of Somali fishing vessels, dhows and whalers who have been forced at gun point to run the ships, families of said crews are often on board as well. That doesn't even begin to cover the terrible prospect of misinformation and misidentified ships.

As a few other posters have said, thankfully you two are retired and no longer able to commit such acts of gross criminal neglect. I think you should be grateful. Should you have been able to adopt the policies you advocate, you would both be serving time in prison for murder.

overun,


You are either 13 or just plain weird.

[Basil]

. . you and the likes of you . .
. . thankfully you two are retired . .
Yes, teacher :O (suitably chastised)




So we can't go and sink every barsteward who looks at us the wrong way?
. . even if it's your family on a cruise who are grabbed next?

[rh200]

Of course people keep paying up, try going in and releasing them and you’d get a lot of people killed, THEN the price would really go up!

Oh dear, never mind. You would only need to do it once or twice, then end of problem, whats happening now is just getting worse.

These people are not mindless brutes, they are not idelogicaly driven, they are money driven. A simple risk vs reward type of thing. You make the risk far worse than the reward, end of problem. Thats the way it used to be, and you know what it worked.

[500N]

"You are merely advocating discriminate cold blooded murder. You engage these suspected pirate vessels with the likes of a 4.5” gun and you are going to be killing innocents by the score. Take a look at the actual facts of recent captures and interventions. They are stack full of tales of these vessels containing captured hostages, crews of Somali fishing vessels, dhows and whalers who have been forced at gun point to run the ships, families of said crews are often on board as well. That doesn't even begin to cover the terrible prospect of misinformation and misidentified ships."

Pr00ne

OK, agree in some respects - and the Marines have been going onto the mother ships, capturing them and releasing the hostages (generally the crew of a ship).

How about the "mother ship" with Pirates on board is then sunk in the middle of no where.

[SASless]

Pr00ne,

Usual fluffy argument you make....as you completely disallow the folks on scene the capacity to determine when to cut loose with the fireworks. The sad fact there are so many hostages being held and the failed policies that allowed that to happen only plays into the hands of the Pirates.

I would suggest the World's Spec Ops community could begin to sort that situation out following a blanket warning from the heads of states of the folks being held. Make it very plain.....harm a hostage and reap the whirlwind....no quarter given. The politics of that would begin to bring heat on the Pirates from those that currently thrive on the money this enterprise brings in. If it were death and destruction instead of the money....I suggest Pirates would become persona non grata in the villages, towns, and ports.

Pirates are theives and wish to be around to spend their booty....getting killed puts paid to that amibition. The key is the absolute certainty of that result that shall put an end to this business.

[FODPlod]

Pr00ne - Glad to see I'm not the only one who's not keen on transforming our armed forces into state-sponsored murderers subject to trial by the ICC. These pirates are plain and simple criminals, not combatants or terrorists. Start killing lowly minions indiscriminately at sea (plus the inevitable innocent parties as on previous occasions) and things will escalate to the point where their bosses start mailing bits of their victims, or videos of the odd one being killed, to shipping companies. Losing some of the 'hired help' won't stop them.

As you say, thank goodness none of these bloodthirsty keyboard warriors are in a position of authority.

[Airborne Aircrew]

These pirates are plain and simple criminals

Might I suggest that once they pick up AK47's and RPG7's they cross a little line between criminal and combatant... Just a though because you can't send Plod after them...

[SOSL]

Blimey, SAMXXV, how old are you?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Thanks Pr00ne a worthy answer but still not satis.

the City of London, where an awful lot of this is managed from, take advice from the military and the likes of the UN.


They are not exempt from my comments ref balls.
A much sterner and robust response is required in order to deter the "pirates" and if some innocents get hurt or killed in the process that is the sad but necessary consequence of taking appropriate action. I, like you back in the 70's, knew that when we got airborne with our basket of sunshine many innocents would die but that's what we would have done...isn't it?
Serious decisions need to be made and balls of steel (even for the girls) are called for to make those decisions. I say again, sadly it will not happen in my lifetime, but I really do not want the world my children and their children live in to be controlled by the wet, witless dreamers who seem to be in abundance at present.
The wet tomb driver I met was clearly not you Pr00ne, you at least have opinions!:ok:

[Ian Corrigible]

Obama was going to send the FBI to the Maersk Alabama scene to negotiate with the Pirates....the on-site Commander used his ROE's to remedy the situation by turning the SEAL's loose. A few rifle shots to the heads of the Pirates and the Alabama Captain was a free Man.
Or to put it another way

US acted after pirates aimed at ship captain
Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/04/12/somalia-piracy-military-idUSN1233162120090412) April 12, 2009

President Barack Obama gave authority to kill the Somali pirates holding U.S. cargo ship captain Richard Phillips, and a commander acted when he concluded the pirates were about to kill the hostage, a U.S. Navy official said on Sunday.

"They were pointing the AK-47s at the captain," Vice Adm. William Gortney, head of the U.S. Naval Central Command, said in a Pentagon briefing from Bahrain.

Gortney also said Washington had rejected negotiations with the pirates. "The United States government policy is to not negotiate," he said.
Sorry if this doesn't support this particular Obama conspiracy.

I/C

[FODPlod]

...I'm sure that if a member of YOUR family was taken by a simpleton, drug crazed african & subjected to terror, rape (male or female) & beaten black & blue, you would demand summary justice.....

Why should any nation have to spend thousands of pounds every year in keeping/feeding these monsters - as we in the UK do?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

You have my deepest sympathy but you chose to live in East Anglia.

[Basil]

BBC News - French hostage Marie Dedieu held in Somalia dies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15365469)
A French woman kidnapped from Kenya by suspected Somali militants earlier this month has died
Mrs Dedieu, 66, was one of four Westerners taken from Kenya in October.

In September, Briton David Tebbutt was killed and his wife Judith abducted
last month, two female Spanish aid workers were seized from the Dadaab refugee camp near the Kenya-Somalia

Well, that's the Kenyan coast off the holiday list. Lets hope the Tassy pirates don't come up the east coast for a month or so.

[Navaleye]

Here's an idea why not put the Dale Farm scum in a mother ship and sink that too? :D:D I hope they have plenty of disinfectant to clean that site with.

[SASless]

IC.....you might use other than Reuters as the definitive source on what happened during the Maersk Alabama event. You shall find a much different account from the folks involved in the effort to rescue those folks.

[FODPlod]

MoD website: Royal Navy, Marines and RFA jointly capture pirate mother ship (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/RoyalNavyMarinesAndRfaJointlyCapturePirateMotherShip.htm)

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/952B02A8-5B1B-4CA4-B6F2-40BAC0755A46/0/FH110213005ppt.jpg&maxSize=210 (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/LargeImageTemplate.aspx?img=/NR/rdonlyres/952B02A8-5B1B-4CA4-B6F2-40BAC0755A46/0/FH110213005ppt.jpg&alt=Merlin%20helicopter%20fires%20warning%20shots%20across%2 0dhow%20bow)

[SASless]

"This decisive and timely action by the Royal Navy, along with the rescue of the Montecristo on 11 October, will send a strong message to those who wish to commit piracy in this part of the world."

Very good work by those involved....but I challenge the "strong message" description.

[Navaleye]

Shabaab-Somali pirate links growing - U.N. adviser - RTRS
Today 16:34

Al Shabaab seeking funds from pirate ransoms Puntland aiming to create counter piracy force

By Jonathan Saul and Camila Reed
LONDON, Oct 20 (Reuters) - Cooperation between Somalia's al Qaeda linked militants and pirate gangs is growing as the al Shabaab group becomes more desperate for funding, the head of the U.N.'s counter-piracy unit said on Thursday.
In recent days Kenya launched a cross-border incursion into Somalia to flush out rebels from its frontier area after a series of kidnappings of foreigners in Kenya. The abductions were carried out by gunmen thought to be linked to al Shabaab.
"There is a growing link and growing cooperation between al Shabaab who are desperate for funding and resources with other criminal gangs and with pirates," said Colonel John Steed.
Steed, the principal military adviser to the U.N. special envoy to Somalia and head of the envoy's counter-piracy unit, said pirates were not part of al Shabaab.
"Pirates are one of those potential sources of large amounts of money so there a natural linkage between Shabaab's desire for funding to support their activities and money that pirates are getting from ransoms," he told Reuters Insider TV on the sidelines of a piracy conference in London.
The President of the semi-autonomous Somali state of Puntland Abdirahman Mohamud Farole believed the two had links.
"We are almost sure about that otherwise in the Shabaab held areas pirates will not operate," he told Insider.

[Navaleye]

A serious and sensible solution to problem would be to ask the government of Singapore to have vessel on station. Any captured pirates could then be transferred to that for trial. Singapore law of course allows for the execution of pirates :ok:

All perfectly legal and above board.

[FODPlod]

A serious and sensible solution to problem would be to ask the government of Singapore to have vessel on station. Any captured pirates could then be transferred to that for trial. Singapore law of course allows for the execution of pirates http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

All perfectly legal and above board.

No it's not, at least where the UK and most other European nations are concerned:Circumstances in Which an Individual will Not be Extradited (http://www.immigration-barristers.co.uk/component/content/article/46)
There are circumstances which will always prevent extradition taking place. These include cases where the individual’s human rights may be breached or where they may face the death penalty if they are extradited.

[Fareastdriver]

Extradition is a legal process where loads of lawyers get loads of money from Legal Aid. Marching them from one ship to another because of rationing problems is much simpler.

They can always try the Chinese; the last lot of pirates they apprehended in the Pearl River aren't around any more.

[FODPlod]

Extradition is a legal process where loads of lawyers get loads of money from Legal Aid. Marching them from one ship to another because of rationing problems is much simpler.

They can always try the Chinese; the last lot of pirates they apprehended in the Pearl River aren't around any more.In that case, it would be rendition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendition_%28law%29) or even extraordinary rendition (http://terrorism.about.com/od/e/g/Renditon.htm). Can you see the problem?

(Hint: It was in all the papers.)

[Airborne Aircrew]

No it's not, at least where the UK and most other European nations are concerned:

Seriously, who gives a tinkers cuss about some scum who are quite prepared to kill innocent people going about their business. It's the fact that the fluffies have taken over that has allowed these gits to do what they do. Sink their ships but leave them floating for the bloody sharks... You haven't executed them, extradited then or any other such nonsense. Let them tell a 12' Oceanic White Tip or Tiger shark about their Human Bleeding Rights.

[Navaleye]

So what if a Singapore Navy ship caught some pirates and shipped them back to Changi. They could then be tried and given the rope.

Completely legal. Nothing to stop any other country doing the same. The Chinese don't give stuff about about pathetic UN conventions.

[green granite]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm there has to be a catch to this somewhere:

Armed guards to protect British ships from pirates

British ships are to be allowed to carry armed guards to protect them from pirates, David Cameron has announced.

Under the plans, the Home Secretary will be given the power to license vessels to carry armed security, including automatic weapons, currently prohibited under firearms laws.

Full torygraph article: Armed guards to protect British ships from pirates - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/piracy/8858159/Armed-guards-to-protect-British-ships-from-pirates.html)

[Clockwork Mouse]

About pigging time too. It's a most basic human right to be permitted to defend yourself against attack. Wait for the outcry from the yoghurt weavers though!

[Navaleye]

About time too. Wait for them to draw up alongside and let rip with 250 rounds of GPMG fire. Bung in a couple of frag grenades for good measure.

Hold on... I can hear the usual dullards warming up to defend their legal aid fees. :mad:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Has our PM been reading or taking advice from this thread (by some of us at least!)? I'm getting worried that he might start acting like a leader or even a Tory. Perhaps there is light at the end of etc....

[hval]

The Government has been taking advice, but not from here. I think that you will find that the UK government is slightly frustrated with the attempts of a unified, global solution not coming to fruition. Not all nations will allow armed vessels in to port. Egypt will not allow armed civilian vessels to utilise the Suez canal, for example. This solution has been looked at for a number of years.

I believe that the arming of vessels is a short term solution to a much larger problem that the rest of the world will need to deal with. Piracy is only one facet of this problem. The problem being poverty, uncontrolled armed gangs, food shortages and water shortages. There is also a problem with terrorism using this method to fund themselves..

One thing to watch out for is escalation of weapons and tactics used by the pirates.

[Navaleye]

Convoy routes are another option. Ships have to pass through Suez in convoy. This could be extended at the exit of the Red Sea. Any enemy man of war (read Pirate) approaching a convoy should be immediately attacked