Do you think this will work?

[NutLoose]

Army officers could be parachuted into the highest police ranks as part of a major Government shake-up.
Downing Street is looking at changes that would establish an "officer class" in local forces, according to the Sunday Times.
Senior intelligence personnel, civil servants and lawyers could also be fast-tracked into top positions, while university graduates could be put through a Sandhurst-style college to speed their progress.
A Home Office spokeswoman said: "As the Prime Minister said in the House of Commons this week, we are interested in radical proposals for the future of leadership and training in the police service.
"Tom Winsor, the Government's independent reviewer of police pay and conditions, is considering the issue of entry into the police service and will make recommendations in the second part of his review, due to be published early next year."


Police role plan for Army officers - *UK News - MSN News UK (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/police-role-plan-for-army-officers-1)

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

[jamesdevice]

No problems making it work
And Mussolini made the trains run on time

[althenick]

The best managers always come from the shop floor - they know strengths and weaknesses better than someone draughted in. Having worked for the police this is particularly true.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Half the time they can't run the forces very well, what makes people think they'll do well managing civvies? :ugh:

[timex]

Looking at some of the Senior (Inspectors and above) Police officers it can only be an improvement..

[waveskimmer]

A A

:D A thankless task if ever there was

[Wander00]

Some guy called Trenchard tried to establish an "officer entry" to the police - did not work, and I guess the Police Federation, if no-one else, would ensure it did not now either.

[airborne_artist]

One of the reasons given is that "Mr Cameron told MPs: "At the moment, the police system is too closed. There is only one point of entry into the force. There are too few – and arguably too similar – candidates for the top jobs. I want to see radical proposals for how we can open up our police force and bring in fresh leadership."

So bringing in people from the Services as direct-entry mid-ranking officers is quite ironic.

Perhaps they'll make it two-way :}

Longer article in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8657725/Army-officers-could-be-fast-tracked-into-police.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

There is only one point of entry into the force.

Or Forces?

As mentioned before, it was quite usual to have senior officers become chief constables. Today they would be aboe to bring their accute skills to the police using their natural skills at policing in the same way that they have a natural affinity with air power.

[MG]

What's the difference between someone joining the police as an inspector, having gone through some basic training that will have to be different from your normal PC on the beat, and someone going through officer training at Sandhurst, Dartmouth or Cranwell? Surely they will be reliant upon a good sgt for a while until they find their feet and then they'll be able to operate accordingly?

We used to do it with the Hong Kong police.

[Shack37]

Due to a shortage of police uniforms the new intake will wear a combination of army and police uniform.......whoa, where have I heard of that before.

[Wrathmonk]

Perhaps they'll make it two-way

Taking that another step forward, given the less than positive comments made about the Manning organisation on other threads, why not recruit qualified and experienced HR professionals and place them in appointments such as AMP/DCinC Pers or desk officers etc? Would they actually need to be in uniform? And how about allowing very senior officers to apply for appointments outside of their service - i.e a dark blue former aviator 4* becomes the next CAS or a Royal Marine becomes CGS (both changing colour of their uniforms of course!)???

[glojo]

Interesting question and for years the Police have had an accelerated promotion scheme whereby those that are good at rote learning will come to the fore and tick all the right boxes.

The copper that learns their trade on the streets might not be as academically qualified as these folks that seek promotion but are they the better police officers? Leaving a pram outside a shop is obstructing a footpath but common sense would dictate that discretion be used. Discretion however can only come with experience, which in turn can only come about by walking the walk and talking the talk on the streets of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

What are we looking for when we look towards our Chief Constables?

I am getting very concerned at how politicians are having more and more say regarding this issue and we see more and more political interference.

There is a place for our police to maintain law and order at industrial or political demonstrations but we are now regularly seeing the police carrying out the bidding of their political masters for reasons other than 'Good policing'

If they were to recruit ex Military then what would the criteria be and who would do the recruiting? The local Police Authority that always has a political agenda? Would it be the Home Secretary who by definition is a politician?

My thoughts are that promotion should be on merit and why not have a Police Inspector take charge of a section of Royal Marines?? NO... I am NOT saying we should do this as I believe it is both crazy and idiotic. Horses for courses.

Stop the accelerated promotion which allows less experienced officers to very quickly be promoted above their levels of either skills or ability. Go back to good old fashioned policing where there is NO political interference, no outside pressures to produce silly statistics that prove nothing and try to justify everything and let those worthy of promotion, be promoted.

[Wander00]

See from the article the usual - "we are so different" claims - I seem to recall an exchange between the Army and industry some years back at about company commander level - afterwards all involved agreed there were more similarities between skills and experience than differences. I found much the same as a sqn ldr guest student at the Natwest Bank Staff College at Heythrop in the 80s.

[blaireau]

Ex-Forces would probably be better employed by replacing the venal, self-seeking, corrupt politicians currently filling the seats at Westminster. Unlike these latter, all have already had an actual job running something and furthermore, being answerable for their actions.

[Chicken Leg]

What's the difference between someone joining the police as an inspector, having gone through some basic training that will have to be different from your normal PC on the beat, and someone going through officer training at Sandhurst, Dartmouth or Cranwell?

They train officers at Cranwell??? When did that start??!!
;)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Relax Chickenleg.
They said people undergo Officer Training at Cranditz, not "they train Officers".

Just as well, or I wouldn't have passed!

[MG]

Grow up!!!

[Chugalug2]

From the various cases of unsolved murders, arresting (often then leading to conviction) the wrong person, fitting up, corruption, receiving bribes, all the way down to the way that petty crime (vandalism, anti social behaviour) is apparently seen as "not my job, mate" by some Forces, this would seem to be a marvellous idea. It isn't. What we need from the Police is effective Law and Order enforcement. That needs lots of experienced and capable Police. With due respect to British Army Officers (or RN or RAF come to that), they are not that (though in time might become so).
The Police are not a military organisation and deal mainly with the public. There is an enormous cultural gap between that and military life, as anyone who has left the military can testify. The Police are not a solution to the problem of redundant military any more than the military were a solution to civvie yobs. Those who wish to pursue a career in the police, or teaching, or any other public service, should be encouraged certainly but not at the cost of being parachuted into posts where their lack of experience and proven ability will further erode standards rather than enhance them.
Finally the effect on morale of seeing one's own promotion prospects screwed up by the sudden appearance of ex military officers above you in the CoC can only be imagined. "Are you a real Inspector, Sir, or only an ex Army officer?".

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Sorry MG; keep your hair on.

Serious points: Friend of mine, ex Army Sergeant, now Police Inspector. He reckons the qualities that get you through each kind of training are similar, but the nature of the job is significantly different.
I've seen RAF Officers make quite poor yacht skippers.
I became a teacher, got promoted rapidly, but still needed 4 years "on the shop floor" to make the cultural adjustments and figure out how to make the system better.

Given the current conditions/redundancies, I reckon there's a serious risk of getting military officers volunteering for the police to get out of the Services/ keep a job, rather than because they are well suited to being Police Officers.

So I'm not in favour of a general transfer path into middle management. I think a small cadre, say 20, could be tried for about 3 years to find out what the problems/benefits are. But there will always be a need for some "frontline" time.

[MG]

Fox3, our replies came at the same trime so I was referring to Chickenleg. I don't have any hair left, sorry!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

MG; then my sympathies- I'm headed that way myself.

Personally I think the transfer suggestion is another failure by this Government to think things through - The average Police Sergeant's lot is getting even less happy.

[MG]

I don't think it a daft suggestion. I could see it working as the joining the Forces as an officer parallel is not so wide of the mark. It might attract those in the Forces who otherwise might be put off going in at the PC level, with a lack of accreditation for their previous experiences. It's certainly worth a look and it should be trialled.

[mlc]

Having reached the dizzy heights of Lt in the RN, I left and subsequently joined the Police 'to tide me over'.

I'm still here. It's a fundementally different job. The accelerated promotion scheme is a disaster and the ACPO types are so politicised, they have forgotten what their primary role is. Morale is rock bottom (isn't it everywhere?) and Cameron has an undisguised anti-Police agenda.

I'm glad I started at the bottom so to speak. I have remained 'front line' and avoided the easy office jobs which would have enabled me to gain faster promotion. My self respect meant more to me than lots of pips on my shoulder. If you're very good at 'diversity' or can manage to string a sentence that has 'community' every other word, you'll go far.

Just so you know what we're up against..read this concerning scroats letting fly a greeny in front of you.

"Spitting is a cultural issue. Young, jobless working-class men spit on the ground as a way of expressing frustration and powerlessness. It is also a way for young men from poor communities to mark territory, a kind of warning to other men in the street that they are present. For successful men, spitting on the ground is a way of demonstrating victory against the harsh realities of modern life, a challenge to others who may wish to rob them of their success.
It is judgemental for a police officer to challenge this behaviour. It shows an ethnocentric approach; why are the cultural norms of the young jobless community less acceptable than those of their more fortunate peers? To achieve the Public Confidence aspirations required by the National Policing Plan, police officers must begin to embed themselves in these cultures. This way, we can achieve our ultimate aim of policing our diverse communities with fairness and understanding."

[Neptunus Rex]

mic

What you quoted has to be the most mindless PC doublespeak I have ever seen.

Where are we heading?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The great benefit of pprune is comments from people who are actually involved in the subjects of the posts, and can express the nub of the problem precisely and concisely.

I think the spitting quote should succeed in putting all the lightweights off, and letting the committed know what they're in for.

Thanks for this mlc; you have my deepest respect, and sympathy.

[Wander00]

In that case someone needs to telll the "police" that spitting in the street is at best unhygenic, at worst positively dangerous as a way of spreading disease. B@@gger "cultural issues" - treat it as "assault" or "breach of the peace".

[bingofuel]

why are the cultural norms of the young jobless community less acceptable than those of their more fortunate peers?

Spitting is certainly not the cultural norm of the Great Britain I grew up in.

[RAFEngO74to09]

mlc

Unbelievable - I have the greatest respect for you having to put up with this sort of thing.

No such nonsense is tolerated in the USA - where I live, if a drunk "Spring Break" college kid so much as swears in public, he / she would get a $500 fine and a year on probation. When they hear the words "Turn around and put your hands behind your back" and the cuffs go on, the look on their faces says it all. "Busted" for "Minor (under 21) In Possession of Alcohol", "Drunk In A Public Place" and "Disorderly Conduct" - they now have a criminal record and their parents, 100s of miles away, are going to get called. Also, rarely does anyone want to add "Resisting Arrest" or (if not stopping immediately in a car) "Felony Evading". Lying to a police officer is "Giving False Information" and / or "Obstructing An Investigation". Compare this to the images in almost any UK city on a Saturday night of several police officers struggling to get one drunk, kicking and shouting abuse, into the back of a van.

[The Old Fat One]

This is not a new idea...Thatcher floated it during her reign.

I had a policewoman roomie for several years who was trying to make Sergeant and CID at roughly the same time (South Yorks). In her words the only thing that counted was the number of nicks you made per annum. She laughed off the concept of accelerated senior policemen/women as being a bad joke made by people who don't understand the concept of policing.

Not saying she was right...but her views are the norm for the rank and file so good luck to any accelerated "sprog" (military or otherwise) who ends up trying to lead a bunch of hardened cops.

PS

Not trying to be controversial but I'd rather have the yobs over here spitting on the pavement, than the yobs across the water shooting up Macdonalds.

[Pontius Navigator]

In one country I visited on my resettlement it was a cultural norm for both people and animals to crap in the street. It was not a cultural norm to clean the street.

Crapping on a street corner could be seen as a way of marking your territory as you would try and avoid crapping on your own piece of pavement.

[NutLoose]

I still see difficulties in this, especially with the amount of Police redundancies being put about in the news. To say see you, we are replacing you with military officers will not go down well within the Police.

Similar the latest on Army redundancies, what a kick in the teeth they are... Ok you have done your tour in Afghanistan, we can't send you back out for a while so byeee, BTW fancy the TA?? but you guys we have just got trained up at some expense to go out there, you can stay, we don't really have the resources to replace you if you left and we haven't got our monies worth out of you yet.......... well it looks that way to these eyes..

[Rigga]

I think that, by the time the ex-mils have got through the Police Service training and the new (to them) HR and senior management systems courses, they'll be noticeably less able to follow their former leadership practices...

[airpolice]

mic wrote:
"Spitting is a cultural issue. Young, jobless working-class men spit on the ground as a way of expressing frustration and powerlessness. It is also a way for young men from poor communities to mark territory, a kind of warning to other men in the street that they are present. For successful men, spitting on the ground is a way of demonstrating victory against the harsh realities of modern life, a challenge to others who may wish to rob them of their success.
It is judgemental for a police officer to challenge this behaviour. It shows an ethnocentric approach; why are the cultural norms of the young jobless community less acceptable than those of their more fortunate peers?


To achieve the Public Confidence aspirations required by the National Policing Plan, police officers must begin to embed themselves in these cultures. This way, we can achieve our ultimate aim of policing our diverse communities with fairness and understanding."



I am unable to find any offical publication of this, mic, do you have a reference for this?





But, just in case I missed something.... are the lefty nutjobs at HQ suggesting that officers on foot patrol should gob on the pavement during a stop & search, (or whatever it is called in your force are this month,) to show bonding with the community that they are serving (and searching) in the interests of harmony?


Is there a genuine desire on the part of those who drafted the NPP to see cops embed themselves in our diverse and multicultural society?

I look forward to seeing this resolved at the same time as the anti-sectarian inititave being pursued in Scotland.


Catholic hating, Flute playing, violent, bigots on the board of Rangers FC are sureley as entiltled to shout "F@@k the P##e" as the pond life are to spit on the ground. Who made the Polis the right people to judge if either group are right or wrong?


Loads of fun in this, and bringing ex military folk into the mix will not, imho, do anything to help.

[mlc]

It was stated at one of the many diversity courses that Police have to suffer as we're told we're all racist bigots who need reprogramming. I was put in detention at one as we were talked down to by a 'transexual' (who was clearly a truck driver in a dress). He (she?) said " It may surprise you to know I used to be a man". Under the 'I couldn't help myself' situation I blurted out "No **** Sherlock". I literally had my cards marked as needing 'extra training'.

Theresa May made a big thing of stating that performance targets (which Labour introduced when they Politicised the Police and destroyed their ability to perform their role) would end. What wasn't reported was that she introduced 'Milestones'. Exactly the same thing , but a nice, shiney, new name. This Government are as bad as the last. However, Labour were just incompetent, the Tories have an agenda.

I can only use a very few of the skills I developed in the Forces. The HR process means that there is no ability to bollock the lazy and incompetent. The majority of my time is spent trying to shield the shift from the utter nonsense that comes out of the various HR and diversity departments. Anybody who comes in from the Forces is going to have a big shock and they will have to have a major mind readjustment, which kind of defeats the object.

[glojo]

I threw in the accelerated promotion scheme to highlight how these applicants have been accepted by the rank and file. These recruits at least joined as a constable and had to sit exams to work their way up the ladder and during that period they managed to get a grounding in basic police work.

By recruiting these academics that joined solely to become senior managers we are now seeing what it has produced. We are now having senior officers being politically correct and allowing political interference when it comes to the policing of their areas of responsibility. That is wrong and always will be wrong.

The spitting documentation could well be an internal directive that is not accessible by Mr Google but I have no doubt some politically correct buffoon has implemented this directive and will insist it will be complied with.

Swearing at a Police officer is also now perfectly acceptable
A spokesman for the Met was unable to confirm the exact date the guidance was issued, but said the cards had been in use "for several years".
He added: "The Metropolitan Police Service issues officers with a memo card providing useful guidance on the execution of their powers.
"This includes advice regarding appropriate note taking and ensuring that they have appropriate grounds for an arrest.
"In particular it reminds them that the courts do not accept that simply swearing at a police officer is grounds for an arrest and illustrates how the MPS has had to make settlements in the past when officers have arrested solely for this."I have rambled on about this because although the accelerated promotion program is disliked by the true rank and file bobbies on the beat… They are now in high office and these types of directives are the result.
You will not hear or read directives saying that all unruly drunkards will be arrested, instead we hear about 'zero tolerance' ???

By recruiting ex military officers and making them managers, who do we think they will listen to? A senior politician that is responsible for hiring them, or a bobby on the beat who is suggesting they are being wrongly advised?
There is NO SHORT CUT TO GAINING EXPERIENCE, it is folly to suggest otherwise