Aircraft ownership - how can we dispel the rich toy myth?

[AdamFrisch]

As a pretty brand new aircraft owner I've come to almost avoid telling people I own an aircraft in this short period. The reaction is always the same, perhaps best summed up by my dear mum "Have you gone nuts? Who do you think you are? You're not rich. You're always trying to be posh!":}

Nothing could be further from the truth of course - as I said I rarely tell people I own an aircraft just because this is the reaction one inevitably gets. If I'd wanted to be posh, I would not have bought an old vintage aircraft, I would have gone for the M5. Aircraft ownership is truly the realm of old fogeys, to which I now belong. In fact, at 40 years of age I'm considered a youngster in these circles. I wish I would get laid left, right and center by young lovely ladies impressed by my aircraft ownership, but the truth is rather more sobering; I'll be sipping awful tepid tea in a leaking club house with other old fogeys nerding out about a strut or a magneto. Less sex appeal is hard to find. Less posh is also hard to find.

How did it come to this? How come owning a clapped out 152, or a Jodel, is seen as "trying to be posh, rich boys toys" but buying an Audi S4, BMW, or owning a boat, or going on vacation, or riding motorcycles, doesn't? They certainly won't cost any less as a hobby. An Audi S4 costs about twice as much to buy as my Aero Commander did. The payments, service and insurance would probably not be far off what I pay for flying 100hrs a year. If you're a boat owner, then lord have mercy on you. That will probably cost you twice as much as owning any aircraft, yet nobody would bat an eyelid at that. Any exotic hobbies, like go-carting, motocrossing etc would certainly cost as much if not more.

So I've decided to fight this and try my best to educate people from now on, and maybe also promote aircraft ownership and flying in the meantime. It's not that expensive compared to other things, even though the prices have gone through the roof. Or maybe I'm wrong in fighting it? Maybe I should embrace the "posh" cachet and revel in its exclusivity?

How do you justify it or argue it as an aircraft owner when that inevitable discussion comes up?

[ShyTorque]

How do you justify it or argue it as an aircraft owner when that inevitable discussion comes up?

Why bother trying? It's obvious you're just another rich poser. :E

[dirkdj]

Just tell people you can be rich or aircraft owner, but not both at the same time (since 1969 and still going).

[Jan Olieslagers]

I see what you mean, and have known the same embarrassment. But frankly: as the new owner of a Rotax-powered 2-seater, I do find your Aero Commander posh. Which I think only good for you, still it leaves me slightly jealous. That you can afford to own such a plane is hard enough to bear, that you can afford to actually fly it is much worse.

Seriously, though: when I tell people I own an ultralight, which is the local legal description for what would be termed an LSA at yours, they think of a noisy 2-stroke engine and a flimsy rag-and-tubes construction. When they then see photographs, and get told the price I paid for it, I sometimes get feelings of "well done". It also helps that the vehicle I drive is the complete opposite of posh.

[Crash one]

My sisters in law haven't spoken to me since I bought my wood & fabric "vintage" bug smasher for £16K. Which I'm quite pleased about. Though new BMWs & new houses of theirs seem ok.
I don't think Joe Public can see beyond a Lear jet as a "Private" aeroplane.
To try to explain the intricasies to them is a waste of flying time.

[PompeyPaul]

By suggesting buying something, for 16k, is not unusual in the depths of a pretty awful recession, well....

There are lots of people struggling in the UK. Flying IS elitist, it just is. Trying to pretend it isn't is like Southampton FC trying to pretend they are a premiership force.

Money and poshness are not linked imho. I know lots of people who are "posh" but skint. I, myself, am a bit of an "oik" but yet relatively wealthy. Wayne Rooney is an excellent example of this!

[AdamFrisch]

I see what you mean, and have known the same embarrassment. But frankly: as the new owner of a Rotax-powered 2-seater, I do find your Aero Commander posh. Which I think only good for you, still it leaves me slightly jealous. That you can afford to own such a plane is hard enough to bear, that you can afford to actually fly it is much worse.

But at $38K, that's about £25K. In fact, when was the last time you saw a Cessna 172 in good shape for less? Certainly less than any Audi, BMW or a Mercedes, more like your garden variety Vauxhall.

Granted, only reason I can fly it is because it's in the US. Here I would be doomed at £2/litre - it would be suicide.

[Ultra long hauler]

How did it come to this? How come owning a clapped out 152, or a Jodel, is seen as "trying to be posh, rich boys toys" but buying an Audi S4, BMW, or owning a boat, or going on vacation, or riding motorcycles, doesn't? They certainly won't cost any less as a hobby. An Audi S4 costs about twice as much to buy as my Aero Commander did. The payments, service and insurance would probably not be far off what I pay for flying 100hrs a year. If you're a boat owner, then lord have mercy on you. That will probably cost you twice as much as owning any aircraft, yet nobody would bat an eyelid at that. Any exotic hobbies, like go-carting, motocrossing etc would certainly cost as much if not more.



I know what you mean, I own a brand spanking Rotax 914 powered 2 seater……….and I get the odd frowns from friends & family.
Yes, they join me for a spin, but it sure feels that they think I am supposedly live above my means or at least try to be "higher" than them, for some kind of weird reason.

I keep it a bit quite too sometimes, about my recent purchase………..I know I have my Baby because of my passion, and not to impress others.
Pouring that plane-money in a new car, clothes and / or fancy holidays would definitely yield more attention………but I won´t!!

But, you´re battling an uphill battle…………..prejudice will always exist, Adam Frisch. I can give you maaaaaany other examples in my life where people just assume.

Cheers,

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Crash one]

I know lots of people who are "posh" but skint. I, myself, am a bit of an "oik" but yet relatively wealthy.

I am neither rich nor posh, I'm doing it on a pension, I worked my ass of for 50 years & I think I deserve it, as for the reccesion F%$£"!k the reccesion. People are paying more to hit little balls & walking round looking for it so they can hit it again.

Edit: Silvaire yr right I did & provided I don't stuff it in one day I've still got it to sell when I'm too old crawl aboard.

[Ultra long hauler]

People are paying more to hit little balls & walking round looking for it so they can hit it again.


One of the more pragmatic ways to describe this noble sport!!
Extraordinarily, some people become millionaire looking for those little balls………..would they spend that money on flying????

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Crash one]

Extraordinarily, some people become millionaire looking for those little balls………..would they spend that money on flying????



Sorry, I wouldn't like to insult the nobility,:rolleyes: And if they did spend it on flying they would soon not be millionaires

[Pilot DAR]

I explain to people that I paid more for my used all terrain vehicle or lawn tractor, than I did for my plane (C150M).

[Crash one]

Unfortunately in the UK even admitting to the need for a lawn tractor or all terrain vehicle puts you in the rich posh bracket. In order to be accepted here one has to have no more than a busted electric rotary mower & a bike!!

[IO540]

Yeah, when I was at univ (1975-78) if you got invited to a party, telling a girl you were an "engineer" was an instant turnoff. The trendy thing to say was "unemployed" :) Of course this was (and is) the right approach for dumb women, but intelligent women were (and are) rarely to be found hanging out in the obvious places :)

Re the first post, I wouldn't bother justifying your flying. It is a massive uphill task. In most social contexts, it is best to not mention it. Obviously, intelligent / professional company is OK because they will understand.

Business travel brings new issues and again it is best to not reveal how you got there and, if you have to, say you have a PPL and rent it for the day, or you are in a syndicate (which gives a doubly good impression of being thrifty). It is only if you routinely deal with billionaries that you can freely fly in a nice plane to meet them. This of course has a direct impact on the utility value of GA.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Flying IS elitist, it just is. Trying to pretend it isn't is like Southampton FC trying to pretend they are a premiership force.
Quite. We are playing with rich mens' toys, there's not really any hiding it.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Unfortunately in the UK even admitting to the need for a lawn tractor or all terrain vehicle puts you in the rich posh bracket. In order to be accepted here one has to have no more than a busted electric rotary mower & a bike!!
Having access to any car does put you in the "rich posh bracket", compared to those who don't. How many do you think don't, then? - most people don't realise it's that many.

[gpn01]

How do you justify it or argue it as an aircraft owner when that inevitable discussion comes up?

The answer's surprisingly easy. Don't mention it in the first place.

[Crash one]

Quote:
Flying IS elitist, it just is. Trying to pretend it isn't is like Southampton FC trying to pretend they are a premiership force.
Quite. We are playing with rich mens' toys, there's not really any hiding it.

Sorry I don't go for that. You don't have to be rich to spend 6k on the licence & 16k on the a/c. Plenty of just as un-rich can spend that on a Beamer & green fees. It all depends what one wants to do with the cash.
Trouble with this UK is the perception that anyone with an "original" idea or lifestyle is fundamentally wrong for having it. Tackety boots & flat cap mentality.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Sorry I don't go for that. You don't have to be rich to spend 6k on the licence & 16k on the a/c.
I don't know which world you live in. I can assure you that in many of the council flats in my ward the description that would be applied to anyone who could spend twenty-two thousand pounds on toys!!!! would include "rich".

Yes there are beamers around the estates. They might have cost a lot when new, but just right now they're getting on for twenty years old and probably have negative scrap value.

[172driver]

Aircraft ownership - how can we dispel the rich toy myth?

Why would you want to? Be glad you can afford it and just cox a snook at the naysayers.

[AdamFrisch]

Why would you want to? Be glad you can afford it and just cox a snook at the naysayers.

Because I'm worried about the future of GA. Less and less pilots for every year and hence why we also become less of a significant voice, so legislators are more likely to walk right over us. I think aircraft ownership is the ticket that could halt this.

But for that to happen people must feel it's an attainable hobby.

[172driver]

Because I'm worried about the future of GA

In general or in some specific country? You seem to live in two VERY different places.


I think aircraft ownership is the ticket that could halt this.

Somehow doubt that. A/c USAGE is where it's at. IOW the perceived value in using light a/c for a variety of roles. This is where the huge difference between the US and Europe (and RoW) lies. In the US (and places like Oz, Southern Africa, etc), light a/c play a useful role day in, day out, and are thus perceived as a beneficial thing. In Europe they - by and large - do not. Hence the generally negative attitude towards them.

[Crash one]

I don't know which world you live in. I can assure you that in many of the council flats in my ward the description that would be applied to anyone who could spend twenty-two thousand pounds on toys!!!! would include "rich".



In my world if you spend 50 years knocking your pan in, working overtime at every opportunity, paying a mortgage & bringing up a family, & end up with, in my miserable opinion, a reasonable pension for a grubby fingered engineer, then you deserve to spend it on what ever toys you like.
My definition of rich is someone with no worries about paying the bills & a LARGE amount of disposable cash on a continuous basis.
The only way I consider myself rich is that at my age I can still put my socks on standing up. I don't have or need a bus pass cos I can still crawl under tha Xreg second hand car & fix it when necessary.
There are plenty who can spend 22K on drugs or booze or political "expenses".
Rich, my ass.

[flybymike]

The only way I consider myself rich is that at my age I can still put my socks on standing up.

Drat, now you are getting me really worried....

[Pace]

A lot of things are perception! Fox hunting was banned as it was seen as a sport of the "landed gentry" The upper classes! Fishing was not that was seen as a pastime of the masses.
You only have to see the stream of Caravans or motorhomes some costing in excess of a small aircraft to realise how strange these perceptions can be.
The media like to portray aviation as the sport of the mega wealthy.
Local MP flying to work in a clapped out 30 yr old mooney becomes Local MP using private jet. etc.
Part of the problem is political especially in Europe. On the roads you can have police, you can have all manner of speed devices to regulate and control.
In the sky its different. While its regulated there is only a certain amount of control and government dont like that.
Once in the air you have freedom of movement and god knows what you may see from your lofty viewing point ;)

Pace

[maxred]

In this world everything is relative. Yes, you have the cars, the house, the plane, however, there will always be someone who has ''MORE''. More is also relative:\

I have knocked my pan in for years, lost the lot, I mean everything, at one stage, then dusted myself down and started to build it again. When others 'look in' they see what they see, they do not care how you got it, nor what pain may have been endured to get it. The power of envy, and how misplaced that can be:sad:

I stopped trying to justify years ago, my family I think are the worst - I thought they may have been pleased for me, nope.

I just enjoy, along with the stress that I may lose it all again tomorrow!!!

[gasax]

So I've decided to fight this and try my best to educate people from now on, and maybe also promote aircraft ownership and flying in the meantime. It's not that expensive compared to other things, even though the prices have gone through the roof. Or maybe I'm wrong in fighting it? Maybe I should embrace the "posh" cachet and revel in its exclusivity?

How do you justify it or argue it as an aircraft owner when that inevitable discussion comes up?

Well the best of luck in trying to fight it - as others have mentioned there are public perceptions which have formed over a long period. Given the average salary level in the UK for men in full time employment is less than £28k you are going to struggle! Effectively that means probably two thirds of the population would see any expensive hobby as being for 'rich people'.

As for the inevitabel discussion - it is by no means 'inevitable' - only if you make it! I find I get on with people much better if I simly do not mention the aircraft. So I would suggest that as your starting point. If however you want to tell the world you own an aircraft - then you have to accept the consequences - people will presume a significant level of 'disposable' income and probably treat you accordingly.

I was in the butchers two weekends ago and somehow the Euro lottery winners came up. The middle aged chap (a butcher) serving me was baffled as to why they actually did the lottery - 'because they already owned their own house'. Which tells you a lot about wealth, its lack of distribution and the perceptions which result from it. Telling this chap there are people who have a huge amount more than him but they do not regard themselves as 'rich' is going to cut little ice.

[MichaelJP59]

I wouldn't bother trying to justify it either - my family all think its an absurd luxury despite explanations of the reasonable cost. I do think the same prejudice would apply to a yacht though.

[gasax]

Yep it does!

Don't ask me how I know!

[enq]

Isn't this an economic utility theory type discussion from another angle, whereby one person's measure of another being rich is their being able to afford to spend a substantial (relative to the observer) amount of money on a discretionary activity (relative to the observer) that has no tangible or intangible benefits (relative to the observer)? :8

If a person cannot be "educated" :ugh: into valuing the act of flying or owning an aircraft then they're not going to value the act of "throwing money away" on such a past time & may well view someone who does do this as having more money than is "fair" (see rich).

There is also a side discussion to be had about where the middle ground between being poor & rich sits & what would define that but this of course varies wildly within & across national borders.

GA Flying isn't necessarily for the rich but a certain level of disposable income is undeniably required to practice it as a hobby.

It is an activity that can certainly be viewed, if not as elitist then as something of an exclusive past time (you can't, or at least shouldn't, just pitch up & take a plane out by yourself without sufficient training & licensing :E ) which is fundamentally different to owning a boat / jet ski / exec car / large pile of drugs :eek: .

That's my twopennorth & please don't get me started on the differences in the availability of decent occupational pensions in the days when everyone expected to die relatively early on to these days of living forever. :}

Regards all, enq.

[cats_five]

The average salery is skewed up by the really high earners. In 2009 the median (half earn more than you, half less) was just £20,801, across all employee jobs.

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Just what is a big salary? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8151355.stm)

[AdamFrisch]

My point was exactly that - you can be an aircraft owner even on £28K in yearly salary or even £20K at a push. Certainly won't be a Cirrus or a Corvalis, but a Jodel or similar permit to fly machine. And you might not be able to fly it more than 50hrs a year. But it's flying and owning. And all the freedoms that come with that. Entirely doable.

[stewmath]

To be honest id be proud to own an aircraft, and i wouldnt frankly give a dam what other people think. I would of worked hard to get my license etc so showing it off, who cares.

There only jealous

[IO540]

You can do a lot of flying on a gross income of 25k, if you live a relatively simple life, don't go out much, don't have anyone to support, live in a cheap flat or with your parents, etc.

However, the UK is not as bad jealousy-wise as some other places. I know a pilot in Germany who bought a very nice IFR tourer which came M-reg. It was on M-reg only because the previous owner actually lived there. If you don't live there, you have to be a turboprop or bigger to be able to go onto M-reg.

So M-reg on a ~ 1500kg plane is a priceless registration, as both maintenance and pilot licensing are based on FAA papers, it avoids the need for a trust, avoids any occasional anti-American prejudice around airports (or in certain obvious countries), etc. And the IOM is in the European VAT system so you get a cert of free circ.

But this German pilot immediately transferred it to D-reg. Cost him thousands, obviously, and loads of hassle. When I asked him why, he said that in Germany people think you are fiddling your tax if you have a foreign reg plane.

I doubt any other country in the world has such a high level of population compliance - except possibly Japan.

[silverknapper]

If you don't live there, you have to be a turboprop or bigger to be able to go onto M-reg.

I know of several recent instances of brand new light aircraft being imported on the Manx register. Uk based owners. In principle I agree but it seems there are ways and means to make it happen.

[Pace]

Silvaire

But with aircraft its not about just buying the aircraft its all the other fixed and running costs as well as pilot legality and currency.
So not really comparable to an E type Jag?
But this isnt the point its why are aircraft seen as a rich mans toy while many equally expensive pastimes are not?
I would suggest its because aircraft were seen as the sole domain of wealthy people and hence probably more to do with the idle rich pasttime in the same way as they were involved in fox hunting.
You could equally ask why if a small aircraft comes down it makes local or national press while if a Caravan crashes on the motorway no one knows about it.
Why that?

Pace

[thing]

'Cos one less caravan is a bonus.

[flybymike]

Unless it's a Cessna Caravan...

[AN2 Driver]

Hi Adam,

sorry saw this thread only today, so I'll try to refer to your original post first and foremost. However, also some of the answers are interesting if not surprising.

As a pretty brand new aircraft owner I've come to almost avoid telling people I own an aircraft in this short period. The reaction is always the same, perhaps best summed up by my dear mum "Have you gone nuts? Who do you think you are? You're not rich. You're always trying to be posh!"

I'd say you've just quoted the single most dangerous issue for General Aviation that is out there and that is threatening to destroy us as a whole.

How did it come to this? How come owning a clapped out 152, or a Jodel, is seen as "trying to be posh, rich boys toys" but buying an Audi S4, BMW, or owning a boat, or going on vacation, or riding motorcycles, doesn't?

Well, at least in Europe talking about those is not wise either :uhoh:

They certainly won't cost any less as a hobby. An Audi S4 costs about twice as much to buy as my Aero Commander did. The payments, service and insurance would probably not be far off what I pay for flying 100hrs a year.

Yes, but the difference is that owning a car is something almost everyone does. And while the press and the envy mob can to an extent differentiate between the 15 year old family van and an S4 or similar, they totally fail to do so with airplanes, because they first of all don't have the faintest idea, nor do they want to have an idea but they want to have a target to vent their own failings and frustrations at.

So I've decided to fight this and try my best to educate people from now on, and maybe also promote aircraft ownership and flying in the meantime. It's not that expensive compared to other things, even though the prices have gone through the roof. Or maybe I'm wrong in fighting it? Maybe I should embrace the "posh" cachet and revel in its exclusivity?

No, you are absolutely right. And I'd say the same to the other owners who have answered here about keeping quiet. That is what did get us into the mess we are in. People keep it hushed up in fear of reprecussions. Why? Are we doing something illegal? Are we hiding "dirty money" in our airplanes? Are we all already conditioned and intimidated to the extent that we ourselfs believe that owning a plane is actually something asocial and bad? Sometimes I get this idea. And it could not be further from the truth.

How do you justify it or argue it as an aircraft owner when that inevitable discussion comes up?

Justify is an ugly word in this regard, as personally I see no reason for the need of a justification. We are free people in a more or less free society, so why the hell do we have to justify anything? What gives anyone the RIGHT to ACCUSE us, to force us into justification?

How do I argue the case? Well, up front honest and straight forward figures. That is how. No other way really helps.

People need to realize that today the average privately owned 4 seater costs less than a middle class car, sometimes starting at less than ANY new car at all. For what I paid for my aircraft, I could not have bought any new car and not a lot of used ones either. If one browses planecheck or other such sites, aircraft ownership can start at less than £15'000 for fairly decent airplanes, reliable travellers such as Cherokee 180's, 140's, Cessna 172's or vintage Mooneys such as mine.

Further, one needs to put the cost of the actual flying in relation to the use of the car everyone has. In my case, with a 140 kt / 8 GPH airplane, this will show that a flight over a given distance will burn LESS fuel and cost LESS money than if I were to drive the same route. I've argued this many times with some ready calculated routes. Driving what in the air is a 200 NM leg, will amount to a road distance of up to 1.5-2.0 times the distance, depending on terrain and roads. My standard route is actually some 300 NM long if driven by car, but 180 NM by plane. I fly 1:20 to reach my route, buring some 12 USG, the flight will cost some £250 in our money. If I apply the set rate per mile for the use of my car, as the tax office allows me to deduct for work purposes, this trip will set me back £320, one way. Plus, it will take me 4-5 hours depending on traffic, meaning I need to spend the night. Also, I will burn more fuel.

Proving this, by showing honest and straightforward figures, shuts up a good quantity of naggers. Letting them sit in the cabin of 1950's creature comforts shuts up some more. They can see the difference between a Mooney short body and their Renault Scenic bloody quick, thank you very much. Luxury? Not really.

I do believe that it should be the goal and foremost priority of many organisations and every single owner to be an ambassador for GA, out of pure self preservation. Seeing that people like EASA and other governmental money chargers have long abided by the prejudice that all aircraft owners are filthy rich has brought us the horrible charges and over the top taxation that we have to live with today. We have shut up about them, in fear they would grow worse if we didn't, for far too long.

So Adam, thanks for asking the question and thanks for making the effort. Do it. All of you. Every single owner and pilot out there, if you have any sort of self preserving conciousness left, do NOT shut up about your flying but speak your mind. Have numbers ready. Be willing to fight. Otherwise, they will eventually prove us right and GA will start from Citations up beacuse envy and petty nagging will have killed the rest off.

Best regards
AN2 Driver

[cats_five]

<snip>
Yes, but the difference is that owning a car is something almost everyone does.
<snip>
People need to realize that today the average privately owned 4 seater costs less than a middle class car, sometimes starting at less than ANY new car at all. For what I paid for my aircraft, I could not have bought any new car and not a lot of used ones either. If one browses planecheck or other such sites, aircraft ownership can start at less than £15'000 for fairly decent airplanes, reliable travellers such as Cherokee 180's, 140's, Cessna 172's or vintage Mooneys such as mine.

Further, one needs to put the cost of the actual flying in relation to the use of the car everyone has. In my case, with a 140 kt / 8 GPH airplane, this will show that a flight over a given distance will burn LESS fuel and cost LESS money than if I were to drive the same route. I've argued this many times with some ready calculated routes.
<snip>

Show me the pilot that has their plane instead of their car. Almost all of us need cars to get to where the planes are.

And arguing the case of a plane as transport - when you get to the nearest airport to where you really want to be, what then? Taxis? Most airfields (except the large expensive commertical ones) seem to be no-where near any public transport, plus anything saved by flying would rapidly get eroded by getting from the airfield to where you really want to be, unless you are putting a cycle in somewhere.

[AdamFrisch]

Thanks for replying AN2. I'm going to approach it like you said and try to educate and encourage people to not only take up flying whenever I can, but to also become aircraft owners.

[cats_five]

Of course if you want really cheap flying than an annex 2 glider is the way to go at a small club, although it you want a reasonably performing glider that isn't a beast to rig then a K6 might fit the bill - with a good pilot they can do 300 km or more on a decent day.

http://www.easa.eu.int/certification/faq/docs/annex_II_01_Jan_2010.pdf

[Unusual Attitude]

Carry a picture of an Evans VP1 in your pocket at all times, that way if you slip up and mention that you own a plane just show them that, they will no longer be jealous, instead they will take pity on you..... ;)

So far having outright owned my own aircraft (onto my second now) for 3 years after many years of shared ownership its not been a glamorous experience at all, I spend more time in a boiler suit, laying on a cold hanger floor working on the thing than I do flying it !

I've worked hard all my days to be able to afford some nice things but it seems your almost made to hide having these sort of toys. The same goes with exotic cars to the point that I used to positively avoid any conversations that involved cars as I felt I had to explain myself every time for owning one.

Basically just fly it, enjoy it and don’t give a hoot what anyone else thinks....its their ignorance / lack of ambition that’s the issue here not yours...

[Monocock]

Adam

Your original post was a tennsy weensy bit showing off so you don't get my sympathy ;)

[maxred]

The issue - UK - is we live in a wee fried country, where the majority, look to the state for support - here we go - and lack any drive and ambition to prosper. Wealth, perceived or not, earned or not, is viewed with envy, not good will.

My friend had the most over the top Rolls Corniche, red with white leather/folding roof. Self made, and loved to show it off.

He told me that he regularly had to clean the spittle off, wipe snot etc whenever he parked it. Final straw was when some clown poured a juice drink over the front seats and ruined the whole lot. Car up for sale - enough he said.

Now start talking aeroplanes and aviation, well, they all love you dont they. Yes I know its wrong, but that is the way it is.:uhoh:

[ShyTorque]

Adam
Your original post was a tennsy weensy bit showing off

I have to agree, my initial reply at post #2 apparently went right over his head. :p

[FleetFlyer]

I'm always happy to revel in the cachet that being an aircraft owner/pilot brings. However, I also let people know how cheaply it can be done and that they ought to come for a ride if they're seriously interested in finding out more.

I basically let people believe I'm a member of a very exclusive club and then invite them to join!

[stewmath]

@AN2 Driver (http://www.pprune.org/members/78226-an2-driver)

when you say that a 300 mile road trip will cost £320 in fuel, can i ask what your driving? Sounds like hummer. If i covered 300nm in my car the fuel costs would be around £50, and thats the average family sized petrol car.

So saying that flying is cheaper than driving, well that is true if your cars got a drink problem.

[AN2 Driver]

Hi stewmath

when you say that a 300 mile road trip will cost £320 in fuel, can i ask what your driving? Sounds like hummer. If i covered 300nm in my car the fuel costs would be around £50, and thats the average family sized petrol car.

Well, that is the typical mistake people do with cars, isn't it? We know very well that for the aircraft, it is not only a question of the fuel used but of all the other costs involved as well, insurance, maintenance e.t.c. which gives you a fixed hour rate.

With cars, people often only count the fuel. Why? Because that is what they shell out regularly. But they do not count the other costs. If you want to compare the plane to the car, you need to compare on an even base. Insurance, parking, maintenance, loss of worth (in new cars), e.t.c. with every mile you drive.

In Switzerland, the tax office gives a rate for that, which is the average rate you may deduct for use of your car by kilometer you drive. That is the base I took for this comparison. It will therefore include ALL costs, like with the aircraft. Agreed, that is an average, but about the only readily available one. And I have had to notice that it gets people to think.

@cats:

Show me the pilot that has their plane instead of their car. Almost all of us need cars to get to where the planes are.

Why instead? What is wrong with driving to the airport and then take the plane to wherever you need to go? I don't see why owning anything at all which you paid for, you can afford and you use should be in need of an EXCUSE. In aviation, the concept of "best use of equipment" is well known and should come in natural, so why not outside the cockpit as well?

And arguing the case of a plane as transport - when you get to the nearest airport to where you really want to be, what then? Taxis? Most airfields (except the large expensive commertical ones) seem to be no-where near any public transport, plus anything saved by flying would rapidly get eroded by getting from the airfield to where you really want to be, unless you are putting a cycle in somewhere.

In the places I fly to regularly, there is public transport if I need it or there are people there who'll pick me up. What if I do the politically correct thing and go by train? The train station hardly ever is where I want to go really.

My usual trip will take me to a mid sized city with a public airport, which will take me 4-5 hours by car but 1.4 hours by plane. The difference being at least 3 hours each way. The airport I fly from is less than 10 minutes from my home by car, so I drive there, drop off the car, get to the aircraft and go. On the other end, I can take the local bus if I need to. Door to door, with all that, total trip time will be about 2.5-3 hours. Definitly faster than by scheduled service, which will ask 1 hour check in and boarding, wait for baggage e.t.c. plus which will cost me almost the same in ticketing for a day trip than the plane, and it is still 1-2 hours faster than by car. Looking at it, I can do this trip in one day easily, whereas with the car, driving 10 hours would drain me sufficiently not to do it. If I have 2 on board and double the ticket price, it actually becomes a lot cheaper with the private aircraft than with the scheduled service, which is asking regular tarifs on this route.

[AdamFrisch]

Adam

Your original post was a tennsy weensy bit showing off so you don't get my sympathy

Can't win, can you? I actually re-read my OP to see if it perhaps did come off as underhandedly showy, which was not my intention at all. But, I can't see it.

The reason I will occasionally talk about it is so other people can get into flying - and other posts to that affect here on this forum on how to attract new pilots back that up. I genuinely want more people to join our ranks and if we can lure them with affordable aircraft ownership, then so be it. All means necessary. Now, if I really wanted to flash, don't you think I would have had a fancy car? My car is 16 years old.

We need to change the attitude to GA and flying. Help out instead. Or did you spunk it all on a new car;)

[stewmath]

@AN2 Driver (http://www.pprune.org/members/78226-an2-driver)

That is fair enough :) i didnt realise you was calculating on the basis of all other car costs. In that respect i take back my comment

[maxred]

Precisely Silvaire, and the US network and GA scene was geared and designed for that. The UK scene, IMHO, never been viewed like that. In recent years the US scene has suferred with the closure of many GA airfields, which makes the concept that little bit harder, but still far more do-able than in the UK. That said, if you want to say travel from Glasgow to London, in your own aeroplane, that is perfectly achievable, and with a bit of planning, and dependant on what your travel plan is, the UK is improving.

[AN2 Driver]

We need to change the attitude to GA and flying. Help out instead. Or did you spunk it all on a new car

Exactly Adam.

Cessna, Piper and others didn't build many tens of thousands of 4-seat people movers (complete with velour seats and plastic interior trim ) for doing pattern work or aerobatics. They were designed, built and sold for transporting family, friends, and colleagues from place to place.

Yes Silvaire, that is true enough, yet many people never leave the extended pattern for lack of funds, guts and the proper airplane. I don't fly to do pattern work either but to get to places. Via est Vita, but not only. There has to be something at the end of the Via to make the trip worthwile too.

@stewmath
That is fair enough i didnt realise you was calculating on the basis of all other car costs. In that respect i take back my comment

No, I am glad you brought it up. Because it is one of the most common arguments you hear. Nobody I know calculates the cost of his car properly, it's just a fact of life. Yet, beancounters (which includes spouses when it comes to flying and other "costly" hobbies) will calculate in detail how expensive your airplane is. Well, I find that the tax office knows pretty well how much a car costs and I would assume that the prices they quote for us to deduct are below the actual ones, or do they usually encourage you to deduct more than absolutely necessary? If one needs to compare, the full calculation has to go in it.

Likewise if people quote Ryanair fares to me when talking cost of a trip in my airplane. Well, fine, if Ryanair goes where I want to go to, they are cheaper. But they do not and even if they did, will their schedule match my needs? If they only fly once a day, how much will the hotel and loss of time cost? I once proved to someone that even if Ryan would fly me for free it would still be cheaper for me to do the trip myself, as it would mean the loss of 2 working days plus 2 nights in a high price hotel environment plus plus plus to do the trip with a loco carrier. Do it with a regular one on a daytrip ticket and possibly with 2-3 people and GA will beat the airlines almost every time on short haul.

I got another one for you. People hate me when I do that but it is just as true. What does your TIME cost? Easy. Take your monthly income, divide by the hours you work per month and you got a figure. Apply that to some of your activities and you'll be surprised. I find that if I add time to the equation, the result is even more stunning. Beancounters can be beat with their own wet noodle if one puts one's mind to it :ok:

[AN2 Driver]

I would love to fly my aircaft around in Europe, shipping it there and back for a two summer period after I retire. If you could arrange to get this all smoothed out over the next 15 years I would be greatly appreciative

Why not fly it over here? Almost all GA planes but the smallest ones can do it. And it's the trip of a lifetime if you can. Any IFR equipped aircraft with a range of 500+ miles can do the trip if you have time enough, yet 700-800 NM range is more comfy.

[AN2 Driver]

what are you flying?

[airpolice]

In response to the original question:

You can't, because it is not a myth.

[ShyTorque]

AN2, if you need a car to drive to the aircraft, surely you need to factor in your "other" motoring costs, too?

Surely in this case the cost of owning and operating the aircraft is an extra, not an "instead of". If you could rely solely on an aircraft for all your transport it would be different, but you can't do so. The car insurance is already paid for, as is the road tax.

Unless, of course, you are on a "pay per mile" insurance policy (which you might be) and similar for road tax (which you wouldn't be in UK because the option doesn't exist). ;)

[MrAverage]

Hey Adam,

Slightly off topic, which Aero Commander do you have?

[AdamFrisch]

First generation, the 520. Mine is from 1953 and they made them from 1951 to 1954 before they introduced the straight 560 with the bigger engines.

[AdamFrisch]

Can I share an upcoming real world example? I have to go for business thing to Budapest tomorrow, but unfortunately have a wedding I need to attend in Cornwall at the weekend, which means I need to return to Budapest again after that. It's a total nightmare financially, but unfortunately this is what happens sometimes. There's no way of flying directly to Plymouth, so it has to be trains from London and hotels at both ends to be able to make it all work. A perfect real world example of where an aircraft can save you loads of money. I'll start my trip in Hastings as this is where I live:

1. Hastings train to Charing Cross: £30
2. Tube to Paddington: £4
3. Heathrow Express to LHR: £18
4. BA flight return to Budapest: £517
5. When I get back I need to stay overnight in London in a hotel to be able to catch the early train to Plymouth: £100
6. Train Paddington to Plymouth return: £100
7. Extra hotel night in Plymouth because of train times: £100
8. Tube from Paddington Charing Cross: £4
9. Charing Cross to Hastings: £30
10: Back the next day to Charing Cross: £30
11. Another tube: £4
12. Another Heathrow Express: £18
13. BA flight to Budapest Return: £533
12. Heathrow Express coming back: £18
14. Bloody tube: £4
15. Bloody Hastings train: £30
TOTAL: £1540

I've also spent about 25hrs of traveling doing this. I haven't factored in the cost of my time.

Now, let's look at flying your own aircraft.

Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth back to Lydd: 200nm
TOTAL: 1860nm

Let's assume you have a reasonably capable aircraft and that it can cruise at 140kts. This trip would then take 13,5hrs and I'm assuming would burn somewhere around 10gph up high, which at £1.9/L would be around £979. If you take your time in a smaller 152 or similar, you'll probably fly for 18hrs and use 6gph, which ends up being £779.

Obviously, there are other costs attached to this, landing fee's etc, but they are probably marginal, say £100 max. I also haven't taken into the account the depreciation, maintenance, insurance, but even if one did, one would still be in the black quite considerably. Other hand I haven't taken into account the potential of cheaper fuel on the continent which could offset that and the time savings you make.

Total savings in the £500-900 region, depending on how you count. That ain't peanuts.

[ShyTorque]

Could you fly all of that VFR? How about an IFR flight?

[172driver]

Could you fly all of that VFR? How about an IFR flight?

Of course you could, done something very similar myself a number of times. What you cannot do VFR is to have a precise schedule as Adam has here. For that you need to be able to go IFR and (at least in winter) de-iced.

On a different note, Adam, you could save about 500 quid flying (Sl)Easyjet. I do take you point, however, the whole thing done in a private a/c would be much more relaxing and if not cheaper, then at least same price. Yes, you can use light a/c for real transportation. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Of course you could, done something very similar myself a number of times. What you cannot do VFR is to have a precise schedule as Adam has here. For that you need to be able to go IFR and (at least in winter) de-iced.

Exactly my point.

And is it safe to fly for 13.5 hours out of 24 in a VFR environment in a light aircraft? And expect to be in a fit state to do business on arrival? Then to turn round and do it all again?

Sorry to sound negative but after over three decades of professional flying experience, half military and half civilian, I wouldn't personally want to rely on a light aircraft as a prime mode of transport, certainly not in the European environment.

Flight safety issues come into it, too. Press-on-itis is a dangerous thing. Putting ones self in a situation where "the show must go on" is not a recipe for reaching retirement safely.

[MichaelJP59]

Now, let's look at flying your own aircraft.

Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth back to Lydd: 200nm
TOTAL: 1860nm


Thought you had to be back in Budapest after the wedding in Plymouth? Which would make it..

Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth to Budapest: 930nm
Budapest to Lydd: 730nm
TOTAL: 3320nm

I love flying but it's not always the cheapest way.

[Pace]

Adam

Have you tried EasyJet from either Gatwick or Luton? Should get the return cost to budapest down from £500 plus a round trip to £200 a round trip.

You have expensive tastes at £100 for a hotel B&B £30 or a Premier at around £60.

If you rent something like a Cirrus 20 you would be looking at about £2300 for the aircraft or £2500 all in.

What you are saving by flying is time and hassle :E

Pace

[Monocock]

This is mindblowing.

[Jan Olieslagers]

That must depend on your (kind of) mind.
And upon the kind of blowing(s) it gets.

[gasax]

You just don't get it do you "Adam I've got a twin engined aircraft but I'm not rich"?

The example you have given is completely incomprehensible to the majority of the working population. The butcher who's views I gave earlier, walks to work - he does not own a car as he has a couple of kids. But you decide that treking across Europe to suite your social arrangments is perfectly resonable.

You can make as many excuses as you want - you simply distance yourself from a larger and larger proporation of the population the more you do it. Given that lack of comprehension you will never see other peoples views - but more importantly they will never see yours.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Gasax, I see your point but I think there is too much difference of context. As I understand, there is a growing class of poor people in the USA too, but they have their own definition of "poor" there. Your butcher - whose situation I can well imagine, and do NOT envy! - would be considered worse than poor in the USA, as I understand. To NOT own a motorcar is simply unthinkable, over there.

[AdamFrisch]

Thought you had to be back in Budapest after the wedding in Plymouth? Which would make it..

Lydd to Budapest: 730nm
Budapest to Plymouth: 930nm
Plymouth to Budapest: 930nm
Budapest to Lydd: 730nm
TOTAL: 3320nm

Of course, I don't know what I was thinking. You're absolutely right - ignore my entry. Total brain error.:oh:

Gasax - please don't ever talk to me like that again. You don't know where I've come from, what I've sacrificed and how f**king hard I've worked in my life to be able to be where I am. You think I'm going to Budapest because I want to? You think I have a choice? Let me know when you post here under your own name like I do and until then, don't you dare judge me or how I put food on my table.

[IO540]

There is no issue with flying two 7 hr flights separated by 1 night, in a modern well equipped IFR aircraft, and I have done plenty of ~7hr flights in the TB20, but it will be IMHO extremely tedious not least because the two flights are going to be over the same ground, and getting a reasonably good night's sleep will be more important than usual.

Personally I would choose to stop for 2 or more nights, at that kind of distance. Budapest is quite a pretty town :)

And you can have an hour in a 7M euro full motion 747NG sim for 300 euros, at the Malev place at the airport :)

In these situations, if the trip is important on the date(s), one normally buys a backup airline ticket.

Gasax - don't drag others down to your (apparent) level. That is an awfully English habit, and it never does anybody any good.

[The500man]

Poor in the USA is actually poor isn't it? In the UK poor just means in receipt of benefits. Of course there are still "odd ball" cases of people living on the street, but I would still imagine life in the USA to be far worse for the truly poor.

[thing]

Poor in the USA is actually poor isn't it? In the UK poor just means in receipt of benefits. Of course there are still "odd ball" cases of people living on the street, but I would still imagine life in the USA to be far worse for the truly poor.

A good incentive to get off your backside and work then. My wife works with 'problem' families here in the UK who have been on benefits for generations. Some of them get more in handouts than she does in salary after tax, and I'm not exaggerating.

[Monocock]

I wish I would get laid left, right and center by young lovely ladies impressed by my aircraft ownership, but the truth is rather more sobering; I'll be sipping awful tepid tea in a leaking club house with other old fogeys nerding out about a strut or a magneto

?..........

[007helicopter]

My sisters in law haven't spoken to me since I bought my wood & fabric "vintage" bug smasher for £16K

Bargain !!

[Contacttower]

So what if your mum or whoever else thinks you are mad/trying to be "posh" (whatever that means?)? You enjoy it and clearly are happy to spend money on it...is that not enough?

I understand the point about trying to help GA by dispelling stereotypes but in reality I think those who have a negative or uncomprehending reaction to light aircraft are never going to have much bearing on what happens to GA; I mean those who live near busy airfields will find it annoying...those who don't (the vast majority of people) will neither really know or care.

The word 'rich' itself is rather unhelpful in this case since it is a relative term and although a light twin owner like yourself is likely to be better off than the average guy in the UK if whoever you are talking to can't understand the difference between a owning a Learjet and an Aero Commander then they are probably not worth talking to. But even if you did own a Learjet and were worried/annoyed about what people thought....who cares....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Just tell them you worked really hard and now are reaping the benefits...:D


Edit to add: So are you going to fly yourself in the end to Budapest? ;)

[AN2 Driver]

The problem, guys, is that our politicians think pretty much like gasax. Quite a few because they don't know any better but a lot of them who actually do but feel that smashing GA is good for the votes. So they lie about it, like they lie about everything else to get a few extra votes.

It should not work that way. GA has been far too accomodating and has never made a stand for itself, out of fear that reprecussions might become even more severe. The fact that flying costs have exploded in our faces and EASA doing it's utmost to actually make the "only rich people can fly" myth a reality, should show every one of us what the writing on the wall is.

I did a 2000 NM return journey in a light plane some weeks ago and it pretty much went on schedule. Cost wise, as we were two on board, it was slightly higher than the scheduled services would have been but we took off 10 NM from our home and landed 10NM from our final destination. Total flying time was just under 15 hours, with 2 weeks in between.

Had we taken the scheduled service, we'd have ended up almost 200 NM from our destination. The airport in question not being a mainstream Easy/Ryan/Air Berlin/loco in general hub, the airlines know they can ask what the heck they want and do it with pleasure so the tickets for the two of us would have made up about 80-90% of the all up cost of the plane. BUT that would also have meant 2 additional travel days, time lost, on some of the scariest roads I am aware of in terms of accidents (not a meter worth of motorway included) and a road trip of over 300 NM as roads tend to go around things like mountains e.t.c.

Doing it by light aircraft saved us two days, which we could use to do what we had to do at our destination and in the end, considering a possible car hire e.t.c. came out pretty much equal out with the options we had otherwise. Having done this trip repeatedly by the tpa method (trains, planes, automobiles) I do know in what state you arrive after 2 days of travel.

Unfortunately, the approach gasax and others have to this is, "who do you think you are travelling in the first place?" Sorry folks, if we base the standard of living for EVERYONE on the weakest links in society and call everyone who works hard to be above this level a "filthy rich b*st*rd" then our society has descended into something I don't necessarily want a part of. Raving communists like that do unfortunately exist, but so do people who still have a sense and regard accomplishment as something desirable, not despecable. Maybe that is one of the things which make the difference why flying in the US, where accomplishment is still regardes as an aim worthy of pursuit, is regarded far mor normally as here, where everyone who has managed to climb fractionally about what is considered poverty level is regarded as a crook.

[AdamFrisch]

Edit to add: So are you going to fly yourself in the end to Budapest?

No, cause I can't afford it;)

No, my math was off as pointed out by MicahelJP. Unless you put a price on your time, it doesn't make sense unless you're in maybe an old Jodel or Luton or something.

Everyone seems to come back to the same thing in this thread except for AN2 and a few others. That basically, shut up, enjoy your plane, don't think your special and don't spread the gospel. Rich, posh - call it what you want, it's like the systemic European disease; envy clouds the matter at hand and to be truly accepted in Britain, you have to compete with others not on who's worked the hardest, but who's worked the least and got away with it. It's the upside down world here sometimes, inverse snobbism. "I'm from the street, I'm from the gutter, yeah". After all, this is the only country in the world where East End hard men biographies are constantly printed and constantly on the bestseller list. Says a lot about the aspirations.

Posting this on a US forum would have been a non issue - we would have talked about the question at hand and not this other b****hit. Let me ask you this - how do you broach aircraft ownership in England in the "right" way? And how do you convey that even if you're not well off, you can fly and own an aircraft? The right way. If someone'd worked at McDonalds and earned £15K a year and still managed to own a piece of wood and rag with a fan (which is entirely doable) - what would people have called him?

I can tell you what I'd call him - a hero and an inspiration.

PS. Is there an equivalent to the EAA's Young Eagles program in the UK? Where kids of lesser means get the opportunity to fly and get in contact with aviation.

[172driver]

Some of them get more in handouts than she does in salary after tax, and I'm not exaggerating.

And herein lies the problem - not only of the UK, but of this entire benighted thing called Europe.

[Pace]

Adam

You cannot compare the attitude to GA in the USA compared to Europe! in the USA success was always admired and a display of that success was seen by others as a goal for themselves.
Europe? Sorry but we hate success and cannot wait for those who are successful to fall.
I can remember years back on a scheduled flight from Italy being told that I could not take photos over Italy.
Spy in the sky?
But really Europe is all about state control! Aircraft for the masses and GA doesnt fit well in that political aim.
Rich kids in expensive aeroplanes with freedom to fly over god knows what?
Much better to keep aviation to people carriers controlled by the state.
Regulate and dictate I am afraid is the name of the game.

Pace

[Contacttower]

No, my math was off as pointed out by MicahelJP. Unless you put a price on your time, it doesn't make sense unless you're in maybe an old Jodel or Luton or something.

Not really surprised...I mean I think the best justification for light aircraft is that they are fun and if one is prepared to spend the money can be very useful for trips that don't conform to public transport/scheduled airlines or just having the freedom to come and go (within reason) at whatever time one wants. I've yet to find an occasion were the trip itself was actually cheaper versus the airline alternative.

The problem, guys, is that our politicians think pretty much like gasax. Quite a few because they don't know any better but a lot of them who actually do but feel that smashing GA is good for the votes. So they lie about it, like they lie about everything else to get a few extra votes.


I don't think GA is really a hot political issue in the UK though...yes people get annoyed about noise when living near airports and now and again the government tries to build an eco-town on an airfield or some developer comes along but in general I don't think UK GA has too much to fear from politics, and when it does there are better arguments to be made for it than trying to explain to people who don't know about aviation why owning a light aircraft is not "posh". Most of the time it is not an envy thing as such more just a straightforward lack of understanding...for example most of the people who complain about noise in rural areas near airfields are certainly not poor by any stretch of the imagination.

[ShyTorque]

Some of them get more in handouts than she does in salary after tax, and I'm not exaggerating.

I have no problem believing that. Firstly because a family friend works in the local benefits office.

Also, one unmarried couple living less than five minutes walk from here qualify for benefits because the "husband", an ex window cleaner, can apparently no longer work up a ladder due to his "bad knees".

They go "on holiday" about three or four times a year and come back with suitcases loaded with cheap cigarettes and liquor "all for their own use" of course. We know where it goes because we have been offered it for a price, and refused to buy. The ex window cleaner seems to have no problem carrying these very heavy suitcases. They obviously have no problems finding the fines for taking the kids on holiday outside of school holiday times.

They own three houses.....

[Jan Olieslagers]

Is there an equivalent to the EAA's Young Eagles program in the UK? Where kids of lesser means get the opportunity to fly and get in contact with aviation.

I often wondered the same. Recently I read about something more or less close in Holland: they had an event at Amsterdam Schiphol but if suffered badly from poor wx. I should love to contribute, too, if once I actually get the contraption in the skies in a legal way.

[MichaelJP59]

Adam, even though your Budapest math was wrong I wouldn't be discouraged - it would be a fun trip to make:)

I tell people I own an aircraft but I also usually tell them my type is not as expensive as they might think.

BTW I do use mine for business trips but always have a backup plan for public transport. I don't mind admitting that I was really pleased to win one contract partly because the client is very near a nice GA airfield and the trip by air actually does save time and money over car or train!

[Crash one]

Quote:
My sisters in law haven't spoken to me since I bought my wood & fabric "vintage" bug smasher for £16K
Bargain !!


You bet it was!!!!

[gasax]

Gasax - please don't ever talk to me like that again. You don't know where I've come from, what I've sacrificed and how f**king hard I've worked in my life to be able to be where I am. You think I'm going to Budapest because I want to? You think I have a choice? Let me know when you post here under your own name like I do and until then, don't you dare judge me or how I put food on my table

Well Adam if you're going to convince people of how reasonable your viewpoint is - you have set yourself up to fail. Throwing your rattle out of the pram tends to destroy your argument.

So you have worked hard - so what? Millions of people have. The fact is that you - and I, enjoy a good, possibly very good standard of living. Yes that brings some obligations - like having to travel for business and be in certain places (in my case some quite unpleasant places) some of the time. But do not imagine for one second that you can convince my butcher that you are not 'rich' or 'well off' or whatever phase you want to describe it with. Setting scenarios where a return home is little more than a convenience or whim is not going to convince many people of the necessity.

How do you justify it or argue it as an aircraft owner when that inevitable discussion comes up? You have to admit that you need a reasonable level of 'disposable income'. There is simply no other way. Do you have to justify it? I don't think so and so I do not fall into that trap.

And yes there has been an equivalent in the UK to the EAA Young Eagles, I racked up over 50 odd flights whilst it was running - regrettably potential liability issues seem to have largely killed it off.

[flybymike]

But do not imagine for one second that you can convince my butcher that you are not 'rich' or 'well off'

I think we need a new example of "the working man". My butcher gives every appearance of being wealthier than me.

[Katamarino]

I can only view the kind of people who look upon others success as being somehow "wrong" in one way; pathetic. Sadly, they form a large part of the vote, and are destroying Europe by trying to drag everyone down to their pitiful little level. I fear the US is going to go the same way; these people really should not be allowed to get involved in the democratic process!

[Poeli]

This makes me think about something else:
Is it wrong nowadays to be 'rich' or richer than someone else?:ugh:
Some people buy audi's others buy an airplane, nothing wroing with it. It's your money. You decide, and no one else!

[The500man]

Fly from US coast to coast and report back on what you find!

I would like to do that sometime, it won't be soon though because I'm not wealthy enough, but I'll try to remember to report back when I do get a chance! :)

Is it wrong nowadays to be 'rich' or richer than someone else?

If it is, there are alot of "rich" people with swimming pools that need to be told how wrong they are! I see soo many swimming pools when flying in the UK. Obviously only the "rich" have them. It's a disgrace! ;)

[AN2 Driver]

Adam,

don't spread the gospel

Yep and then wonder why we are running out of youngsters who want to fly?

Pace,

Europe? Sorry but we hate success and cannot wait for those who are successful to fall.

Remember the old repeated story of the 2 pairs of father and son at the airshow? An American dad with his son stands on one side of a nice airplane on display, a European to the other. Sais the US father: "Son, if you work hard and never loose your goal out of sight, one day you can proudly own one of these!" Sais the European: "Would you just look at this decadence! That is what the Mafiosi buy to impress their mistresses!"

Told often, probably never happened but very true nevertheless.

But really Europe is all about state control! Aircraft for the masses and GA doesnt fit well in that political aim.

Funny you should say that. I did watch one of the movies released by the German paper "Pilot und Flugzeug" about their readers trips, I believe this one to far east. One statement I never forgot goes about like that: You can determine the degree of personal freedom a country allows it's people by whether they allow private aviation on a broad basis.....

@contacttower
I don't think GA is really a hot political issue in the UK though...

Well, maybe it should become one. What do you think will be next after GA is anihilated? The same people see us all riding bicycles as in Bejing. GA is just their training ground.

I don't think UK GA has too much to fear from politics, and when it does there are better arguments to be made for it than trying to explain to people who don't know about aviation why owning a light aircraft is not "posh". Most of the time it is not an envy thing as such more just a straightforward lack of understanding...for example most of the people who complain about noise in rural areas near airfields are certainly not poor by any stretch of the imagination.

It has a lot to fear from European politics and if your MP's want to differentiate from that, they should take a look at France, who now will introduce a NATIONAL IR rating and b*gger EASA.

If it's straight lack of understanding then that is why I believe we need to get the message out, loud and clear. No, we are not posh stupid playboys with too much money in our pocket, we are normal people like everyone else who want to do nothing else than pursue our vision of happiness. Like the guys with the Harleys, like people who do anything sensible with their time. We take pride in our ambition and the will to get where we want. ANYONE can, but it takes getting out of your comfort zone from time to time and do something. Or else, stay there and shut up.

Like Adam sais, it takes HARD WORK to get someplace, hard work to be able to afford maybe a tad more than others. Any country who measures its society by the homeless or unemployed will soon end up having more and more of them.

@gasax
But do not imagine for one second that you can convince my butcher that you are not 'rich' or 'well off' or whatever phase you want to describe it with. Setting scenarios where a return home is little more than a convenience or whim is not going to convince many people of the necessity.

And what authority has a butcher got to question if I should be allowed to fly? Don't know about UK butchers but those I know here do well (and I know a few as besides flying I do a pretty decend BBQ or so I am told and good relations to that trade contribute to that particular success :ok: ) and I know some who fly themselfs. Those who usually throw tantrums are intellectual figures, not butchers who actually know what WORK means. No, the people who really are a pita are usually university trained troublemakers who proclaim socialism with their glass of champaign and caviar amuse bouche in both hands. The worst anti GA crowd comes out of that hole, political control freaks, green with environmentalism and envy (note how the two go together colourwise) and generally just :mad: . Those who will tax the :mad: out of us in an effort to subdue any freedom? Who would love to cash in all our wages and maybe pay us an allowance so they can finance all their garbage programs and what else?

That is the folks to be wary of, not butchers or other honest trades.

@katamarino
I can only view the kind of people who look upon others success as being somehow "wrong" in one way; pathetic. Sadly, they form a large part of the vote, and are destroying Europe by trying to drag everyone down to their pitiful little level. I fear the US is going to go the same way; these people really should not be allowed to get involved in the democratic process!

You say exactly what the problem is in Europe. And yes, since a while the same tendency shows in the US, very true but I think they will not subdue the will for freedom in that country so easily as they do it here. Europeans of many countries are used to regimes who will tell them what to do or else. I am not that sure if they are such a large part of the voting people, but certainly they form a large part of the political leadership of today.

@Poeli
Some people buy audi's others buy an airplane, nothing wroing with it. It's your money. You decide, and no one else!

Exactly. And that is what Adam's original question amounts to. The other day I did exactly that: I pointed one of the most vocal critics of my flying to planecheck and ran a "All airplanes" search sorted by ascending asking prices. The other tab had a car sales website. Let's say that the first several pages of planecheck were airplanes with much lower prices than most cars on the other screen.... made some people think.

Don't ask - don't tell is not for aviators, people.

[Captain Smithy]

Reading through your last post AN2 Driver I find myself constantly nodding in agreement with all of your points.

An interesting point is that many smaller aircraft types, e.g. microlights have similar buying & running costs to new family cars... so you don't really have to be "rich" as such to fly.

I found when I was learning to fly that many people commented along similar lines to the stereotypes being expressed here. "Bloody hell you must be loaded mate!" for example. No Smithy never was and is not "loaded" by any means. Yes I admit I am comfortable at the moment and appreciate what I have got, but I work for it and that' my business, no-one elses.

Inevitably the topic of conversation changes to "How much does that cost you then?". Non-aviation folks baulk at the hourly cost of rental. Fair enough I think we all do. But then I ask them what they spend per month on their shiny new Mondeo/Insignia/Megane/whatever other ugly modern twatmobile they've just bought, or how much they spend/waste going out on the sauce every Saturday night, or how much they spend on designer clothes etc. Suddenly sense is seen and they realise that in the grand scheme of things it isn't actually that unaffordable compared with everything else, and that Smithy isn't some elite yuppie with an elite hobby.

I am and forever shall be eternally grateful for the few hours per month I manage to afford in 1980s Pipers for my own enjoyment. While I welcome with open arms anyone who would like to join me in taking part in said hobby it isn't anyone else's business to judge what I get up to in my spare time with my earnings and if someone doesn't like it because of whatever bigoted reasons then that says more about them and their state of mind than anything else...

Smithy

[Windy Militant]

Is there an equivalent to the EAA's Young Eagles program in the UK? Where kids of lesser means get the opportunity to fly and get in contact with aviation.
The LAA ran a Young Aviators programme until recently but as mentioned they have suspended it due to the possible effect of litigation on the association.
The Air Scouts are running Aviation camps which include an air experience flight as part of getting Aeronautics/ Navigation badges but this is obviously restricted to Scouts and not the general public.

Something to remember that GA is a minority activity and like motorcycling is considered to be low on the political agenda especially when it comes to gathering votes. We will always be worse off than activities that command millions of participants.
Also Human beings are Herd animals and any individual who does not conform with the "norm" is frowned upon.

[ScottinTexas]

Adam, it seems most people on this forum are in England. It may be difficult to fight the "only the rich own airplanes" attitude there. I have justified my desire to buy one by simply pointing at the cost of trucks. I will buy a plane. I am not sure which one, but I will. The cost of the planes I have looked at range from $80K to $100K (they're old). Well, the pickup trucks that I look at cost about $50K. In my family we own 3 trucks that averaged $30K. Well, that's the price of one airplane. And we are not rich by any measure! Seriously, people will spend thousands of dollars on all sorts of frivolous things to impress others. A decent sailboat costs a good $100k. How many non-rich people own one and they can't even sail it. They use it as a prop in the yacht club setting. We will spend the same thousands of dollars on an airplane that can take us places, and more importantly, that we can use to poke holes in the sky, and that's all that matters.

I used to think my shiny new truck would attract the hard body young ladies that like to ride horses. My horse didn't help, so maybe my truck would. Not so lucky. Even the addition of a German Shepherd didn't help. I guess I should have gone with a Ferrari. I have to work on my trucks (no new ones for me, and I wont pay a mechanic's fee) and spend my time discussing parts at the parts counter with a pimply faced punk that doesn't know a starter from a spark plug. Not so different from your sitting around the leaky club house drinking tepid tea.

I think I want a Cherokee 6/300. It's not as sexy as a Beechcraft King Air, but it will do. Since I am older now, and have been married 31 years, I don't worry about getting laid as often. But it sure would be nice to be surrounded by a bunch of hotties. But even if they like the Cherokee, I'll have to park it at the lake or on the University campus for them to even see it. The girls don't like to go to yucky airports unless you are taking them to the Cayman Islands.

Just tell people that the plane was left to you by a stranger that you helped on the side of the road one foggy night. You will be viewed as a kind, gentle soul and that might help. The discussion in the clubhouse might even be more entertaining.

[AN2 Driver]

Reading through your last post AN2 Driver I find myself constantly nodding in agreement with all of your points.

Thanks Captain :)

Yes I admit I am comfortable at the moment and appreciate what I have got, but I work for it and that' my business, no-one elses.

Absolutely.

Non-aviation folks baulk at the hourly cost of rental. Fair enough I think we all do. But then I ask them what they spend per month on their shiny new Mondeo/Insignia/Megane/whatever other ugly modern twatmobile they've just bought, or how much they spend/waste going out on the sauce every Saturday night, or how much they spend on designer clothes etc. Suddenly sense is seen and they realise that in the grand scheme of things it isn't actually that unaffordable compared with everything else, and that Smithy isn't some elite yuppie with an elite hobby.

VERY true. Apart, I have started to make some useful calcs such as to the gas mileage of my aircraft plus the costs compared to scheduled services or vs the car for certain of my most used routes and that does get their attention too. I did manage to actually shut up a totally obnoxious green campaigner the other day by proving to him that it was more ecological by any measure to do my monthly business trip to a city about 150 NM air distance but 300 NM ground distance by my small aircraft rather than either take a schedule (which is more expensive if booked as a daytrip) or by car, which uses more fuel on that route due to the distance and the time involved. Unless the argument is that travel in itself is evil, then if you calculate it correctly, that is all costs up, you find often enough that flying is the most economical way of transport.

it isn't anyone else's business to judge what I get up to in my spare time with my earnings and if someone doesn't like it because of whatever bigoted reasons then that says more about them and their state of mind than anything else...

It does say a lot about society too these days. I keep noticing that the "beancounter" attitude which has infested large parts of the business world to the extent that innovation and progress have largely disappeared in many companies, has found it's way into every day life. I keep seeing people here who live like they will go bancrupt every day, but if you take a closer look, it is them who have the large bank deposits stashed away. Do they enjoy it? Heck no, they are so pre-occupied with being worried that someone will take it away from them that they make Scrooge McDuck look like a positive big spender. Anyone enjoying life, which is hard enough these days even without those bundle of joy's, is suspect, a waster and someone who needs re-education. Misers are often regarded as role models, not as the negative beings they are. Whenever greed and envy become a way of life, things go downhill fast. Unfortunately, today's society has become very green, the traditional colour of envy.

Best regards
An2 Driver

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Anyone enjoying life, which is hard enough these days even without those bundle of joy's, is suspect, a waster and someone who needs re-education.
If by "anyone enjoying life" you mean the poor souls frequently reported in the media who through no fault of their own find it impossible to pay back the £37,000 they've borrowed on credit cards to spend on night clubs and clothes, then yes, "suspect, a waster and someone who needs re-education" would seem a reasonable description.

(People who put grocer''s' apo's'troph'e's in plur'al's' are also in need of re-education BTW. It doesn't half detract from trying to read what they're trying to say, so is a real barrier to communication.)

[AN2 Driver]

If by "anyone enjoying life" you mean the poor souls frequently reported in the media who through no fault of their own find it impossible to pay back the £37,000 they've borrowed on credit cards to spend on night clubs and clothes, then yes, "suspect, a waster and someone who needs re-education" would seem a reasonable description.

No, that is not who I meant and yes, these people also do need a readjustment of attitude.

The people I am talking about are those who have the means but don't use them. Maybe it's more a problem where I live and in places I have relations to, but there is is ridiculous how people sit on their cash and will shout abuse at anyone having a holiday or even going for a coffee in a restaurant, let alone fly an airplane. By their own choice but yet to "impress" others with their miser attitude. And as far as I can see, folks like that are prominently sitting in all sorts of political movements trying to forbid everything. Pal of mine calls them Taliban-Misers. I call them killjoys amongst other things.

You quote the exact opposite. Of course there are people like that also in GA but I'd say probably a lot less than generally.


(People who put grocer''s' apo's'troph'e's in plur'al's' are also in need of re-education BTW. It doesn't half detract from trying to read what they're trying to say, so is a real barrier to communication.)

Sorry about that. I'll have it checked out :) Unfortunately, English is not my first language.... Thanks for pointing it out.

[AN2 Driver]

Thank you very much Silvaire.

No, English is not my first language. I am Swiss, means I grew up with German. We do learn French in school before English (at least when I was there it was still like that). And out of necessity, I also speak a bit of Bulgarian.

I have to say however that English now is a large part of my life. I speak it on a regular basis at home, I watch movies and read books in their original language whenever I can. Most my recreational and professional writing is in English as well as German. I have spent time in the UK and US, although never as a resident.

Your point about negative popular culture constraining people who would otherwise have more to offer, and get more out of life, is excellent.


Glad you agree. I've seen too much of it in recent years to stomach. I am not a rich man, just a simple employee who's been working damn hard for all my life, so I really do not need anyone to tell me how or if I should spend my money. I've had two close friends who never got to enjoy the fruits of their labour and I don't wish to join them in that. Apart, I've made the mistake once to put off things which I could have done at the time, but can't do now. Chances never come back. So I've decided for myself to live as I can, enjoy what I can while it lasts.

Even if things should happen which might make me wish to have saved more, they can maybe take my money, but they can't take away my memories of flights, travels and good times. I have some, some of which cost "unreasonable" amounts for me at the time, yet which I cherish. Buying theater tickets in London for a then whopping £70 a piece to see the original screening of Chess (Elaine Paige), then the next day walking into the lobby of a theater at Picadilly because it was English weather, ending up buying a ticket and seeing the original of "Run for your wife" with Eric Sykes, Terry Scott and Bernard Bresslaw, won't come back, will it. Flying my then Cessna 150 down to Spain and back in one day.... yea, crazy stuff. Doing my AN2 rating in Bulgaria when most people in central Europe didn't know either what an AN2 is nor where Bulgaria is. But I loved it. And I want more of it.

Best regards
AN2 Driver.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

A car is a necessity for life in the Western world
Oh dear. What about the large proportion of the population who don't have access to a car - are they dead then, or just invisible to you? Except of course when you're employing them to do menial jobs that you don't feel like doing yourself?

[Crash one]

Oh dear. What about the large proportion of the population who don't have access to a car - are they dead then, or just invisible to you? Except of course when you're employing them to do menial jobs that you don't feel like doing yourself?

Gertrude,
You seem to be on the defensive on behalf of the poor & destitute, which is commendable, but please try to understand that the rest of the world is not going to happily walk about in rags, looking for their lunch in skips just to make themselves equal.
Some of us may be a little better off than others but many of us have worked hard to be so. Please stop trying to make us feel guilty for "making it".
Most of us feel sorry for the hard working less well off, but until it becomes convention to share & pool all financial resources so that everyone on this planet is equally well off or poor depending how the sums work out, then there will always be them that have & them that have not.
You must agree that in your world of council flats & high rise slums there are a large number of downright lazy unemployable bums that we do not feel sorry for. There are also many in the same places that don't deserve to be there.
I left the Navy in 1967 & lived in a miserable flat, shared drying green etc while I drove busses for a living.
I worked my way from there to a detached cottage with 2 acre, retired toolroom foreman, & a decent pension. Stop trying to make me feel guilty as if I should give it all away to the booze swigging junkies that couldn't see far enough to drive the car that they can't afford since they pissed it all up the wall.

[AN2 Driver]

CJboy

Standing by for a barrage of folks telling how they do a business trip every now and again, but let's be honest we could all do without SEP aircraft.

Well, I do travelling with it whenever I can. Best use of equipment, remember? If it makes sense to go by plane I will, if by car I do that or by any other means available.

A car is a necessity for life in the Western world, except if you live in a big city centre.

I agree, but a lot of the folks who think along the lines we have been discussing here don't. For them, cars are as "evil" as planes or ANYTHING enjoyable, regardless if necessary or not.

We should stop being apologetic and trying to say it's not a hobby/pleasure/fun because that's why we do it. That is exactly the same motivation as the golfers at the golf club, the sailors at the sailing club, even the man who sits by a lake fishing for 20 hours at a stretch. We all put what we have into our fun, and it's different for everybody.

Absolutely right, we need to stop apologizing. We have nothing to apologize for.

Yes of course it is fun, but that does not exclude it being useful as well. I would probably not be interested in flying a plane which can't serve any useful purpose, such as getting me on trips I'd do in any case but faster and more economical. Yet, that is exactly the problem, or part of it. The people we have been discussing here don't see that there are different planes for different purposes, different cost range, just like with cars. Nobody will compare a Lamborghini with a Mini Cooper or a Smart, but they do compare a Pitts Special with a Mooney if you get my drift. I think you are right to say that a lot of planes are there purely for the fun of it, but not all and not by far all.

That I think makes the difference between GA, which CAN be a straightforward system of personal transport, towards other past times.

However, I strongly feel that the people's right of self determination on how they wish to spend their time, be it professional or pleasure, needs protection from those who wish to treat us like sheep. Throughout my professional life I have strived to do something I like. Not only out of egoism but also because if you do something you like, you are better and more efficient at it than if you do something which pais the bills but is otherwise boring or even awful. The same needs to go for what we do outside our professional life.

Best regards
AN2 Driver.

[AN2 Driver]

Gertrude,

Oh dear. What about the large proportion of the population who don't have access to a car - are they dead then, or just invisible to you? Except of course when you're employing them to do menial jobs that you don't feel like doing yourself?

No they are not. I have been there and I have the T-shirt as the saying goes. Unemployed for quite a while. I found things to do, to get me over that time. And I got out of it. Not because some people took pity on me, but because I sat on my on behind and made it happen. That, at least in the Western world, is something people CAN do. I've seen too many examples to know that if you keep an open mind, if you are not too pretentious to do exactly those jobs if need be for a while, then you will get out of the gutter.

And something else. Nobody of us who would forego flying out of sympathy for the "poor" would do them a favour. Nor if we forego all "luxury". Every past time generates jobs. Aviation generates a lot of them. If we were to give up, we'd end up with another batch of unemployed folks out there, we'd help ruining some perfectly good businesses and thereby create more poverty than we would actually eradicate. Money which does not circulate might as well not be there.

Best regards
AN2 Driver.

[stickandrudderman]

AN2, I visit Switzerland often and I thoroughly enjoy it. I suspect that if you are representative of your fellow countrymen, you are part of the reason that I like it so much.:ok:

The anti-aspirationalism that is prevalant in the UK drives me nuts.
I don't go around bragging that I own this or that, but I have absolutely no compunction in revealing it to anyone who's interested.

The success of capitalism is based on the ignorance of the proletariat and always it will be thus.

[salmabambi]

Just wait for the bill for your first annual to come along .... then you will know the real cost of aircraft ownership !!!!!.

I hear body parts can be sold in Asia should you find that you need this facility !!! :ugh:

[AN2 Driver]

stickandrudder,

next time you are in the Zürich area, let me know :)

We do have the same kind of thing here too however, that is why I got quite interested in this thread. Somehow I feel it is one of the primary reasons politics get away with everything they throw at us, because a lot of non-aspirers or otherwise challenged folks feel "serves those rich ba$tards right". that is why I believe we have to stop apologizing and hiding if GA is to have a future in Europe.


salmabambi
Just wait for the bill for your first annual to come along .... then you will know the real cost of aircraft ownership !!!!!.

Wait for it? I've had about 10 of them on my first plane and 2 on this one plus an engine revision last year. Pilots are supposed to plan and stake out things before they comit to something, owners even more so. Anyone who "discovers" the "true cost of ownership" only after he's had his plane for a while has sadly failed at that. "PPPPP" is not only something we should keep in mind while flying but also before.

Recently, I have been approached by people who know about my buying an airplane and asked to put some of my calcs regarding ownership together in book or booklet form. I am thinking about it, but it will require quite some data collection. This thread somehow encourages me to go ahead, there is just so many myths to dispell it might be worth it.

Best regards
AN2 driver

[PompeyPaul]

It's amazing how many people, when they know you fly and have a ppl, immediately latch onto the cost aspect.

Nobody EVER thinks about the hours and hours of study for the theory exams that you had to put in, or the commitment it takes to obtain your PPL whilst holding down a day job.

Similarly, although I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination but I am comfortable, when ever anybody sees my car or the houses I rent out (at a great loss actually!) everybody latches onto that and thinks how rich I must be rather than the hours, and hours of overtime and the 7 day weeks I worked took to get there.

I started out from comprehensive school on free school meals and with free school uniform but got to where I am through bloody mindedness and fookin hard work.

What I'm trying to say is maybe the problem with society is that everybody is so impressed by and focused on the result but nobody really concentrates on the work that it takes to get there. Which is ironic because it's the work that is in everybody's control. I get, by the time people have maybe come to realise that the prime opportunities may have already passed behind them.

[IO540]

Try telling that to my teenage sons :)

I estimate the cost in my time of the JAA IR theory study so far has been about £100,000 :)

[AN2 Driver]

It's amazing how many people, when they know you fly and have a ppl, immediately latch onto the cost aspect.

Just about all of them? No wonder with everyone just rabbiting about how expemsive everything is and we are all going to be bancrupt soon booohooo. It's a mindset, Pompej, and while the original Cassandra was right eventually, the lot of them here these days are primarily doing predictions of doom until they believe them. Of course, if they don't expect anything else, then it will eventually happen.

Nobody EVER thinks about the hours and hours of study for the theory exams that you had to put in, or the commitment it takes to obtain your PPL whilst holding down a day job.

Even worse. They'll think "how has this lazy got the time to do all this while I don't"? Cost control freaks will not at all go by this argument, but will tell you how much "productive" time you've waisted doing a license which will "only cost you money" once it's finished. :ugh:

What I'm trying to say is maybe the problem with society is that everybody is so impressed by and focused on the result but nobody really concentrates on the work that it takes to get there. Which is ironic because it's the work that is in everybody's control. I get, by the time people have maybe come to realise that the prime opportunities may have already passed behind them.

Yes, and by the time they do, they are disgruntled old hot air machines which will do their utmost to see that NOBODY get's to do what they have spoiled for themselfs.

I almost got into a fight not too long ago with some pensioner who went on about "at our times we had not..." Well, sorry, is that my fault? What if they had gotten of their behinds and done something about it? But of course moaning and groaning is so much easier than actually doing something.

[Ultra long hauler]

I almost got into a fight not too long ago with some pensioner who went on about "at our times we had not..." Well, sorry, is that my fault? What if they had gotten of their behinds and done something about it? But of course moaning and groaning is so much easier than actually doing something.

Mmm, I´m not sure what "his times" were………..but if this person was old enough, he would have qualified to learn to fly FOR FREE perhaps.
Yep, I´m referring to WWII; or there abouts.
Just being facetious of course………

Not the best time to be alive back then, for obvious reasons; but from an aviation point of view it must have been "great", so to speak.
In those days guys learned how to fly Spitfires & Hurricanes just like that and they were kicked out to solo before they even had the time to pronounce "PPL".

Of course, drastic times calls for drastic measures…………and the non-combat accident rate was rather high, but I believe there was a generation of pilots that learned how to fly, (voluntarily or not); which subsequently turned obsolete after all the dust settled.

After that however, I imagine private aviation must have been VERY expensive in the 50´s & 60´s, very elite………..unless you had your own warbird droppin´ out of the sky and into your back garden perhaps………..did anybody restore "wounded" warbirds privately back then?
Were you even allowed to? I have no idea………...

Only late 60´s and in the 70´s Cessna and the likes came out with the GA type of models that we know today………is that correct? That is what I normally see and read……….I´m no expert.

Speaking for myself, I own a Cessna 150 "type of plane", classed "LSA"; and I find it relatively affordable, compared to the expenses of others: fancy cars, clothes, holidays and hobbies!
To be a member at my local golf club for instance, (or so I have been told) you spend something equal to the purchase prize of my Rotax 914.
Priorities………..

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Ultra long hauler]

the largest production year for GA ever was 1946.

Well well, I find that absolutely astonishing after a demanding event such as WWII.

Many thousands of light aircraft were built that year, and quite a few of them actually sold
You learn something every day………but like you said, in the U.S!
I guess in Europe there was a big chunk of pilots that did not have the resources to continue flying, am I right?? Although I think for a lot of them flying had too much to do with war and death anyway, I guess.

A lot of those aircraft are still flying today, Cessnas included. The 120 and 140 were introduced that year, and other types in volume production were: Aeronca, Piper, Ercoupe, Luscombe, Stinson, Taylorcraft, Navion, Beechcraft etc etc..

Again, thank you. The early Cessna´s (and G.A in general) I see and hear about are more from the late 50´s / 60´s and upwards!! Get my drift??

So, back on topic: you reckon that flying these days is considered more "elite" than back in the early days of G.A??? Is that fair to say?

in Germany, aircraft production for individual owned aircraft was illegal until (I believe) 1955.

How about the U.K? Could you take off the guns of any (enemy) warbird, patch it up and fly it privately in the late 40´s / 50´s??

Cheers!!



###Ultra Long Hauler###

[thing]

My uncle used to fly spotter planes in the Royal Artillery during WWII which I believe were basically Austers. He bought an ex army one in 1946 for £5. There were loads of a/c up for sale for virtually nothing after WWII, I believe you could buy a Tiger Moth for around ten or twenty quid.

I don't think it was considered elite as such (you certainly wouldn't think so if you met my uncle who is still alive and well and will bore you to death about Italy and dodging ME 109's) I think it was more that the general public just didn't know that aviation was so cheap and attainable. Unc left the army and went back to his former trade of driver on steam locomotives, I know he kept his Auster until the 60's when the cost of maintenance finally made him give it up.

I must take him flying.