Military basing announcement: implications for GA in eastern Scotland

[NorthSouth]

I think it's come as a surprise to most that the basing plans announced by Liam Fox this afternoon include turning Kirknewton into one of the Army's five Multi-Role Brigade Headquarters - similar to Catterick and Aldershot.

We don't have the details yet but since these MRBs number around 6500 personnel and include tanks, heavy artillery, reconnaissance and all the support functions, as well as infantry, it's inevitable that this will have serious consequences for the Air Cadet gliders and light civil aircraft currently operating at Kirknewton.

In addition to that, the closure of Leuchars will mean East Of Scotland Universities Air Squadron will be looking for a home.

This is on top of the closure of Latch Farm after the hangar collapse in December and the interminable delays in getting a planning decision on the future Dirleton airstrip.

With all these light aviation units looking for a home, is there now a critical mass for a one-stop shop for light civil and military aviation in east central Scotland?

The UAS could move to Dundee and the Kirknewton gliders to Arbroath (if its runways aren't obliterated by the new Army base), but that would put them a long way away from most of their customers.

Anyone got 800m of flat grass in south Fife?

NS

[airpolice]

Glenrothes actually has an airport.

I suspect however, that finding land is the least of your worries.

[maxred]

Looked at this two years ago, we wanted to create a Breighton type operation, an all singing all dancing GA centre of excellence, Central Scotland. Usual crap- council planning, NIMBY neighbours, try looking for a suitable field, millions about, one to fit your requirements, errr no..........

Then, who gets in?????

Then, are their enough aircraft...........

Decided to have a pause, think about it, then time marched on. Agree though, times they are a changing.:rolleyes:

[airpolice]

Perth seems very well suited.

[xrayalpha]

Well, for those happy with 530-ish metres of grass, there is Strathaven!

Steel for new 10,000 sq ft hangar is on site, steel for manager's house is now going up - lots happening!

Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More (http://tinyurl.com/3hbozmq) is an artist's impression of the house and the three hangars - although when the third will be built is another question.

Agree, though, that the loss of Kirknewton as a GA base for heavy singles and light twins is a shame.

Of course, I understand a new c10,000 sq ft hangar is going up at Cumbernauld and new broom in charge at Prestwick is clearing out decades of rubbish in buildings to make space for hangarage there.

So pretty positive for west central Scotland.

[Captain Smithy]

The folks in the West are OK; CBN and PIK remain active bases and are reasonably accessible by road (i.e. not too bad travel time). In the East choice is rather limited. For Fife/Perthshire folks Glenrothes, Perth and Dundee are all within reasonable distance but nothing exists for Edinburgh, Lothians & Borders. Edinburgh remains staunchly prohibitive to visiting GA and the only other airfield was Kirknewton, permission was required to get in from HQ Air Cadets but still it could be done. Now there is nothing at all for the South East.

Microlighting remains active at East Fortune but apart from that GA options are woeful, Glenrothes etc. remain IMO (although others may feel differently) too far a trek to be realistically accessible to the capital.

A <1000m grass strip to the East of Edinburgh right on the city (and EDI Class D) boundary would be ideal. Plenty of space away from NIMBYs yet accessible to the city centre. If circuit patterns could be adapted to avoid the flightpath for EDI 24 arrivals things would surely work out. There must be tons of people wanting to visit Edinburgh by GA but put off by EDI's Mandatory Handling? Smithy for one would be a regular visitor.

Smithy

[bingofuel]

Does anyone have the address of the Euro lottery winners?
They could buy their own jet and operate it from their own airport.

[Captain Smithy]

They're in Largs. That's nae use as that's through in Weegeshire.

There again it depends what one wants to visit Edinburgh for. If visiting the outskirts, family or friends - OK. But avoid Edinburgh City Centre. Smithy visited it at the weekend. It's a fecking dump full of roadworks, neds, crap nightclubs and the Scottish Parliament, or Government, or something in Heedrum Hodrum, or whatever King Alex likes to call it these days. :suspect:

Smithy

[Crash one]

Anyone got 800m of flat grass in south Fife?



Kingsmuir has 620 metres ~5nm south of Leuchars. No hangar space, no mandatory handling, no customs, no yellow jackets, no jobsworths.:D

[140KIAS]

and miles away from anywhere

[Crash one]

and miles away from anywhere

Absolutely, keeps the riff raff out innit.

[NorthSouth]

riff raff = bread & butter

NS

[maxred]

Agreed the Kirknewton closure is a problem. At last count there were some 12 aircraft there, almost all local residents, therefore the choice becomes really limited for them. The issue is that you do need to be close to the airfield, so that you can pop out whenever you like, a break in the weather, without the 1 hour commute backwards and forwards to get to the airfield.

Dundee/Perth and Fife, are all at least an hours commute, probabaly longer with traffic at peak times, from EDI, therefore to go anywhere, add 3 hours to your day. I have experienced that and it does eventually weaken the will to go flying. Asset sits in hanger, not getting used, therefore waste of time and money. Eventually wheres the point.

The project at Direlton would be the answer, but that appears to have been going on for years now, with no movement. Any update anyone??

You could also approach NMS re East Fortune, and make a plea to open up the tarmac. We used to do it.:cool:

[dont overfil]

It will take as long to get to Direlton from the west of Edinburgh as it would to get to Perth.
A compromise for the Edinbuggers may be Balado if the planned extra hangarage comes about.
There is already ~ 700m grass and 400m of concrete and a pro aviation owner.
Downside. It's not available for six weeks in the summer.
D.O.

[maxred]

Another downside may be who is also there:\:uhoh:

[Captain Smithy]

I'd imagine there will be a few issues with FOD of recent... :\

[floppyjock]

"Kingsmuir has 620 metres ~5nm south of Leuchars. No hangar space, no mandatory handling, no customs, no yellow jackets, no jobsworths"


Yeah but the farmers a crook.

Floppy

[floppyjock]

"In addition to that, the closure of Leuchars will mean East Of Scotland Universities Air Squadron will be looking for a home"

Not necessarily. When RAF Gutersloh was handed over to the army and became Princess Royal Bks. The RAF ATC and MET Office remained to support the AAC and Bertelsmann ( Local company) who operate business jets on site.

Floppy

[airpolice]

Floppy, your comments re the man at Kingsmuir are entirley at odds with my experience.

I've always found him to be a friendly and co-operative chap with a passion for aviation.

[floppyjock]

Airpolice

Dont be fooled Ive had dealings with the man. Believe me he is one of the most dishonest men I have ever come across and as crooked as they come.

Floppy

[Crash one]

Floppyjock.
Your comments don't stack up with my experience either.

[floppyjock]

Hay everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Mine is only based on documented evidence and witnesses to his activities. Just be careful when dealing with him.

Floppy

[Crash one]

No one I know that visits Kingsmuir has a bad word for the man.
Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I don't think this is the place to discuss a man's honesty who isn't here to defend himself.

[gasax]

I have to say this opinion is a real surprise to me as well - unless Floopy has some links to the long gone and unlamented parachuting people?

[Crash one]

I have to say this opinion is a real surprise to me as well - unless Floopy has some links to the long gone and unlamented parachuting people?

I rest my case M''lud.

[floppyjock]

Id love to hear what you know about that.

Floppy

[Captain Smithy]

Ding Ding! In the reeeedd cornaaaaahh...

And so the stage is set for yet another PPRuNE pissing contest...

[Mad_Mark]

Anyone know of a good libel lawyer for floppyjock? :E

[Crash one]

And so the stage is set for yet another PPRuNe pissing contest...

If you want one of those, read today's Dundee Courier ref Fife Airport.

[dont overfil]

Yeh. That's a familiar name. Hope it's a coincidence.
D.O.

[xrayalpha]

Crash One,

Don't see anything on the Courier website, care to summarise?

[p1andy]

Yeah whats happening at Fife?

[Crash one]

Don't see anything on the Courier website, care to summarise?

Local farmer complaining about unsociable activities, urinating in public places, litter, excessive a/c noise during last two years. Tayside Aviation in "conference" with skydive operators??
Could be a Nimby farmer with a grudge or genuine. I don't know.

[mad_jock]

Or one that quite fancys wind turbines on his land

[floppyjock]

Only libel if untrue.

Floppy

[gasax]

Given my experience of parachutists at three different site I'd tend to side with the farmer!!!!

With drop sircraft that often see 'uncared for' not surprising that flying out and back to altitue is not a preferred practice.

[Crash one]

Gasaxe
I don't think you'd be short of company in this case.

[floppyjock]

Bit of narrow minded point of view guys.

"With drop sircraft that often see 'uncared for' not surprising that flying out and back to altitue is not a preferred practice"

????????

Trying to decipher this one. So here goes.
Are you trying to say parachute aircraft are uncared for? If so, if you look into it you,ll find they are subject to the same standards as any other aircraft with some additions. They may seem to be held together with bodge tape but that is to stop snagging and damage to parachute equipment.

As for flying out and back to altutude to drop. This is the preferred practice and one I encourage to reduce niose to a minimum in the local area. However when the jump altitude is a low one then this is not always possible.

BTW I have no connection with the operation at Fife. But is the person that is complaining the manager of the chicken farm who lives next to the runway.
If so its a silly place to live if you dont like aircraft noise.

Floppy

PS Getting a bit off topic now

[cats_five]

Is the drop aicraft noisier than the other stuff at Fife? If so I can see why the chicken farm guy is complaining. He was living with level x of noise, all of a sudden it's X.

[floppyjock]

No idea what else operates out of Fife. But any excess noise would only be at take off on the weekends.

Floppy

[NorthSouth]

Whatever the merits of the case it is vital that a mutually happy outcome is achieved to the noise litter and pissing (and wind turbine) issues because Fife's importance to GA in east central Scotland has just gone up significantly with the threats to the future of Kirknewton.

Does the parachute club not have a toilet???? If not it's surely not beyond the wit of either Fife Airport Ltd or the club to provide one.

Personally if I was about to go parachute jumping I'd be in serious need of a toilet....

NS

[dont overfil]

The drop pilots do make an effort to minimise noise, but it is still the noisiest ac based at Fife.
I stay 10nm away but can hear it all the way to FL100.
D.O.

[floppyjock]

Yes there are toilets on site ive been there and seen then. I think theres a bit of exaggeration going on.

Dont overfil, you must have some exceptional hearing. Are you sure its the Fife based aircraft?

Floppy

[dont overfil]

floppyjock,
When the wind is from the east it's ole' thunderbird, when it's from the west it's Strathallan.
I said I could hear it from 10 miles, I didn't say it was a nusance for me.
Portmoak also operate a Pawnee with a 4 blade prop nearby but it is very quiet.
D.O.

[floppyjock]

Northsouth

I wouldnt panic just yet. Just because Kirknewton is being made into an army base does not mean that flying will stop. You never know it may well secure the flying activities there. The army has its own gliding association and its quote:- " a recognised sport and approved Adventurous Training activity to all Servicemen ".

There are also several army camps with flying activities on them ie Middle Wallop, Netheravon, Upavon, Sennelager and Gutersloh (Germany) and Kingsfield (Cyprus)

Im sure as we write here there are already people in the aviation business rubbing their hands together at the posible prospect of moving into RAF Leuchars. There one little Irish fella i can think about.

Floppy

[floppyjock]

Dont overfil

Point taken Im the same. I can pick out an aircraft miles away before I can see it. Guess its a pilot thing. The man in the street wouldnt bat an eyelid.

You must live in the Kinross area then.

Floppy

[floppyjock]

oops remembered another army camp with flying activities, South Cerney near Cirencester.

Floppy

[gasax]

When Kingsmuir was operating the drop aircraft could be heard all the way up to FL100 - largely because it was still in sight. I suspect it will be the same now at Glenrothes unless the operating procedures have changed.

Glenrothes has some pleasant facilities, I've not visited since the parachuting arrived, but I suspect they would not be terribly welcome in the lounge. the general behaviour of people buoyed up on adrenaline is never very good but a lot of that has to be down to the way the operation is run.

Hopefully it can all be resolved, whilst I don't think much of parachuting I have no desire to stop other people enjoying it. They just have to realise there are bigger issues in play. The sites floppy lists as having flying activities carrying on are very difficult for a civil GA aircraft to visit....

[NorthSouth]

floppyjock:Just because Kirknewton is being made into an army base does not mean that flying will stop. You never know it may well secure the flying activities there...There are also several army camps with flying activities on them ie Middle Wallop, Netheravon, Upavon, Sennelager and Gutersloh (Germany) and Kingsfield (Cyprus)I hope you're right, but I can't see it. Kirknewton is a very small site - the airfield is only about 1 square kilometre and they sold off the old Ritchie Camp land to the west some time ago, so all the new facilities will have to go on that 1 sq km. By contrast:

Middle Wallop is the HQ of the AAC - it's whole raison d'etre is aviation

Netheravon doesn't have to accommodate large non-aviation Army units since there are loads of nearby bases for them at Tidworth, Bulford, Larkhill etc. Also, the airfield is surrounded by vast expanses of MoD land so is not constrained.

Upavon's in a similar position to Netheravon.

Sennelager is a vast training area for armoured units as well as lots of barracks so has plenty space to squeeze in a few gliders.

Gutersloh was orginally a fast jet airfield with a 2250m runway and is now a major AAC helicopter base so aviation's still a significant part of its raison d'etre.

As I say, I hope you're right, but the geography would suggest otherwise.

NS

[floppyjock]

North South

Just to answer some of what you said.

Middlewallop has a flying club.

Netheravon Ive seen quite a few civilian aircraft using it.

Upavon has a gliding club or used too.

Sennelager is the base for the JSPC / RAPA parachuting.

Gutersloh is also know as Flughaven Gutersloh which corporate jets operate from.

I dont know the setup at Kirknewton so can really comment on the geography of the place.

I guess what im trying to say is just because is going to be and army camp does not mean it will put an end to aviation.

Floppy

[floppyjock]

gasax

It might interest you to know that the parachute business was invited by Fife airport operators to relocate there. This was to make the airport more viable.

The Courier - Glenrothes airport's future in doubt (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/Fife/article/365/glenrothes-airport-s-future-in-doubt.html)

The parachute business hire a large hanger, buy more fuel in one weekend that you probably buy in a year and provide a healthy profit in the Tipsy Nipper. The parachute club booking office is also run by the flying club so theres another income. There was also talk of moving a flight training to Dundee at one time to accomodate the parachuting as that provided a bigger income for the airport. Dont think that has happened and they worked round it.

Your right about GA aircraft getting into of the sites i mentioned but if you think about it. Would you want to visit any of them as most are in the middle of no where.

Like i said army does not necessary mean anti aviation.

Floppy

[Captain Smithy]

One does wonder however that there may be opportunity for others here; will microlighting sites like Thornhill, Stathaven, East Fortune, Midlem etc. see an opportunity and expand to accept Group A operations? :cool:

Smithy

[NorthSouth]

floppyjock:Middlewallop has a flying club [etc]Yep, I totally understand all that. Lots of big army camps with gliding or GA activity. What I'm saying is that Kirknewton can't be compared to those because your comparators are either (a) places where the military aviation requirement means that these are really primarily military aviation sites, not military camps that have made room for civil GA, or (b) vast sites with lots of MoD land next to them on to which they could expand if necessary - Kirknewton's a tiny site with no MoD land around it, so all the new Army facilities will have to be put on the airfield.

NS

[NorthSouth]

Cap'n Smithy:Thornhill
Surrounded by very noise intolerant neighbours and miles from Edinburgh
Strathaven
Rough as old boots and (despite what some websites claim) miles from Edinburgh
East Fortune
Sadly, mired in conflicting multiple ownership which prevents any viable runway being achieved
Midlem
Barely 500m grass and miles from Edinburgh

NS

[floppyjock]

Im not familiar with Kirknewton so i,ll have to take your word for it. You never know we might have a change of government or get involved in another war and the cutbacks may never happen.

Floppy

[Oldpilot55]

Thornhill is a swamp unless George has invested any money in improving it since I based a plane there.
Strathaven has a very wet patch in the middle, almost a stream when very wet, that was there in the 60s when I used to glide there.
There is potentially an excellent GA field just to the west of Edinburgh and to the north of Kirknewton but the monopoly that owns it is just not interested. There are many of us who remember what it used to be like!!

[xrayalpha]

Capt Smithy:

Strathaven welcomes any GA that cares to visit - we have a 172 from Colonsay and the Rallya from Prestwick that are regular visitors. Plus a Sportscrusier, a Robin DR400 and a Kitfox based here. (We also have the Prestwick Eurostar which was bought by one of our members - but it has now been re-registered as a microlight)

And of course we have had George in in his Islander, and Boyd-thing in his Cessna Caravan.

We have the land but don't have the money to extend the runway, nor do we intend to stock AvGas. So in that sense we are "GA unfriendly" - but the reality is it just does not make financial sense.

In my opinion, the world is moving to the Rotax 912 powered model - and that is what we serve. Light aircraft or microlight. (I even like the look of the Technam twin with 912s)

North South:

Rough as old boots - yes, some of the runway is and, hopefully, after spending £700,000 at Strathaven this year, there will be some cash left over/some cash coming in from the new hangar to tackle that . But there are good bits and not so bad bits, you just have to get to know the place. The chap who came in with a Piper Cub and pronounced it "unsafe" needs some retraining! This is what Cubs were built for!

Yes, we are miles from Edinburgh. But still less than an hour's drive and with quality affordable hangars. (just ask how much space in the new hangar being built at Cumbernauld is!)

OldPilot55:

"Thornhill is a swamp unless George has invested any money in improving it since I based a plane there."
George has - he has spent a fortune on Perfo!
"Strathaven has a very wet patch in the middle, almost a stream when very wet, that was there in the 60s when I used to glide there."
Yes, there is a wet patch - but no longer a stream! We have never lost a days flying in four years due to the state of the runway - except when covered by snow. Better record than many grass airfields.
Pprune is a rumour network, not a history book!

*****
Apologies to all if I appear grumpy - I am working 12 to 14 hour days at the moment with a busier than ever flying school and a massive construction project, plus the aftermath of last year's disaster.

Strathaven is really going places - may not be the place many of you would like to go! - and recollections of what it was like in the 1960s remind us of how far we have come.

There are four photographs on the wall in the clubhouse - of the airfield in early 1960, of the airfield in 2005, the airfield in 2009 and an artist's impression of it in 2012. Come and have a look. I think it is bl**dy impressive what has been done.