Does a skills test take the place of a renewal?

[AdamFrisch]

Basically, I want to add my multi engine to my UK PPL. At the same time, I have a renewal of amy SEP rating to do. If I do a skills test for the MEP, does that also renew the lesser rating?

[mad_jock]

nope but it does count as your 1 hour with an instructor and the CRE for the MEP if you have the experence requirements can sign you off for the SEP afterwards.

If you don't have the experence you will have to do the flight test in a SEP.

SEP isn't counted as a lesser class rating. But a rating in its own right.

The only thing which cascades to SEP is the SPA Multi engine IR which qualifies you on SPA Single engines as well unless they require a type IR.

[AdamFrisch]

Thanks, Mad Jock.

Side note, I was under the impression that, contrary to the FAA approach, if you took your JAA PPL in a multi, you get the SEP rating for free, i.e. you get MEP and SEP even though you just did a skills test for MEP. Logic would then dictate that if I did a skills test for MEP, that would automatically count as a renewal of the SEP. They can't have the cake and eat it too. Or in other words - how come it counts for a skills test, but not for a rating renewal? Makes so very little sense.

This is not the case in FAA-land where they're separate from the get go.

[Whopity]

The only thing which cascades to SEP is the SPA Multi engine IRAnd of course experience in a TMG if you have that class rating!I was under the impression that, contrary to the FAA approach, if you took your JAA PPL in a multi, you get the SEP rating for freeThen you are clearly under a false impression. A MEP Skills test qualifies you for a MEP Class rating, nothing else. A separate Skills test is required to add a SEP Class rating. You never get anything for free!

[AdamFrisch]

There we are then.

So does this madness continue for the IR like it does in FAA land? You do your IR skills test in a ME and then can't legally fly single engine IR even though you have the class rating...? One has to admit that that's pretty nuts. Is that what you were referring to in the SPA acronym (which I don't know what it stands for).

[Contacttower]

If you a multi-engine IR you also have a single one even in JAR land...

I can kind of see the reason for not giving the SEP on the back of the MEP...I mean what about practicing PFLs etc...?

[mad_jock]

Its the same in JAR land Socal but... only on Single pilot aircraft which don't require a type rating to operate. A king air SPA IR doesn't allow you to operate a MEP IR but it does allow a SEP IR as long as your SEP is valid.

The SEP class rating test does require PFL's glide approaches etc which isn't covered in the MEP class rating which is fair enough in my book.

The SPA IR covers partial panel, stalling, unusual attitude recovery etc which isn't cover in the multipilot IR. So again fair enough in my book.

What I do find weird though is my type rating IR LPC test covers me for my 1 hour with an instructor for SEP. Because it really doesn't cover any of the skills I use in flying an SEP.

[AdamFrisch]

Well, it seems I've been misinformed then. So SoCal, you're saying that a Multi IR checkride gives you SEP IR priviliges for "free" (my instructor had said that wasn't the case, but they've been wrong before) if you have the SEP class rating beforehand. Now, how come a regular ME checkride doesn't give you a SEP then? In the first you're demonstrating IR skills in a multi engine environment, which they deem are good enough for you to be safe to do so in a single as well. But if you do a straight ME, then you're not competent enough to fly a single engine and have to prove that by doing a separate checkride?

I see no consistency here at all. To me it sounds a bit like not allowing the ATPL to fly an ultralight.

I'm afraid I don't know the meaning of PFL's - could someone clarify?

[S-Works]

Because the skills demonstrated are different. EFATO, Glide approach etc.

Skills at IR level are platform independent hence the reason why the IR is Class independent.

[mad_jock]

PFL's practise forced landings. ie the donk gives up the ghost and you have to stick it somewhere that doesn't have a runway.

And speaking as a ATPL I personally would think it would be suicide for me to fly an ultralight without relevant training and a test. I would pull back when I should pull forward etc etc.

[bookworm]

The sets of skills that must be demonstrated for an SEP and for an MEP skills test are overlapping but some of the skills (engine out emergency procedures and actions) are distinct and different. Hence an MEP skills test does not get you an SEP class rating.

By contrast, the set of skills that must be demonstrated for an IR in an SEP (which includes no emergencies) are a subset of those to be demonstrated for an IR in an MEP (which includes OEI emergencies). Hence an IR skills test on an MEP gets you an IR that can be exercised on an SEP.

[bookworm]

What I do find weird though is my type rating IR LPC test covers me for my 1 hour with an instructor for SEP. Because it really doesn't cover any of the skills I use in flying an SEP.

I think the "1 hour with an instructor" was introduced not to test SEP skills but so that SEP pilots got some exposure to the instruction environment, which they otherwise would not be, since the SEP class rating can be renewed by experience. Every other rating (MEP, IR, type ratings) requires a periodic proficiency check, which serves the same purpose.

[BEagle]

Unfortunately EASA FCL.002 are going to poke their €urosnouts into the '1 hr with instructor' requirement - because a certain country, which cannot do anything unless there is a rule written for it, seems to want a prescribed content...:rolleyes:

If they do that, I can't see how a type rating LPC/IR can possibly be permitted to count in lieu. If the Ger.... that country decided that a PFL is mandatory for SEP revalidation, for example, they are unlikely to accept an LPC/IR in an A320 as a substitute.

[bookworm]

I don't think there's scope for this BEagle, unless they intend to revise the implementing rule itself:

- a training flight of at least 1 hour with a flight instructor (FI) or a class rating instructor (CRI). Applicants shall be exempted from this flight if they have passed a class or type rating proficiency check or skill test in any other class or type of aeroplane.

Let's hope there's someone sensible on FCL.002.

[BillieBob]

unless they intend to revise the implementing rule itself:
Precisely the reason for establishing a rulemaking task, I would have thought.

[bookworm]

Precisely the reason for establishing a rulemaking task, I would have thought.

Well a lot of FCL.002 seems to be about developing AMCs and GM.

[AdamFrisch]

Out of curiosity - what's the deal with AMES and ASES then? Do you get ASES if you checkride for AMES and previously had ASEL? Or will they claim that the difference between water taxiing a single and multi are so different that, of course, you must attend FlightSafety for two years and get a degree in hydroperformance from Embry Riddle? ;)

[Whopity]

In Europe MEP(Sea) and SEP(Sea) are separate classes again, so nothing transfers apart from the IR (common skill)and revalidation of Sea ratings is at the discretion of the Authority.

[AdamFrisch]

OK.

I've actually heard it's impossible to get AMES/MEP Sea issued in the UK as there is no ME seaplane and they won't give you one based on your FAA one. Which begs the question, if you bought one or imported one and put it on the register, how would you ever get legal to fly it?

[Whopity]

Maybe that's one of the advantages of JAA/EASA, you have the whole of Europe to do the training in. At the end of they day, they would have to make a provision but it wouldn't come cheap. Operating it might be somewhat problematical as well. Most water is owned by someone and getting permission is not easy.