PPL VMC minima question

[Odai]

Hello,

I am studying for Air Law, and have a couple of questions regarding VMC minima.

From what I understand, UK VMC minima when above 3000AMSL but below FL100 are 5km visibility; 1500m and 1000 feet from cloud. However, I cannot visualise how this works. I'd see how 1500m horizontal OR 1000ft vertical separation would work, but not both at the same time.

Secondly, can PPLs without any additional ratings fly out of sight of the surface? One of the restrictions on the PPL seem to be that you cannot fly out of sight, but in the same Air Law book (Pooleys) it says the VMC minima for a PPL without an IMC or IR goes right down to 5km visibility, clearance of 1000ft+1500m from clouds when between 3000ft AMSL and FL100. Nothing about needing to be in sight of the surface. Or am I missing something here? The only mention of needing to be in sight of the surface is when below 3000Ft AMSL.

I'd greatly appreciate any advice on this! :D

Thanks,

Odai.

[thing]

You need to be in sight of the surface at all times. You may be above say two or three octas of cloud (and preferably descending below them through the gaps) but you need to be in sight of the surface. Hope that helps.

[Whopity]

Don't confuse visibility (how far you can see in general) with distance from cloud. The cloud impairs your viability in the direction of the cloud but does not change the overall visibility.

Secondly, don't confuse VMC criteria with licence privileges, the latter appear in ANO Schedule 7 and have nothing to do with the VMC minima but both sets of rules apply to a pilot.

The "3000 metre minima" and the "in sight of the surface rules" are part of the licence privileges, soon to change under EASA.Secondly, can PPLs without any additional ratings fly out of sight of the surface?Yes, if they have a PPL issued in a State other than the UK. Their minimum visibility is 1500 metres and not restricted to 3K.

[BEagle]

Outside CAS, the ICAO VFR minima for aeroplanes flying at or below 3000 ft a.m.s.l and 140 KIAS are clear of cloud, in sight of the surface and 1500m in-flight visibility. If not in sight of the surface, the minimum in-flight visibility outside CAS (below FL100) is 5km.

Rule 28 para (2):

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3), (4), (5)* and (6)*, an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1,500 metres horizontally and 1,000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.is modified by para (3) such that:
Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(c) is in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.Note that I've highlighted the word 'aircraft'. Rule 28 para (2) is further modified for an 'aircraft which is not a helicopter' (such as an aeroplane or airship) by para (4) as follows:
Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which is not a helicopter and which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) flies at a speed which, according to its air speed indicator, is 140 knots or less;
(c) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(d) is in a flight visibility of at least 1,500 metres.

However, the UK ANO further restricts PPL holders without IMCR/IR to an absolute minimum outside CAS of 3000m in-flight visibility. Additionally, the ANO requires PPL holders without IMCR/IR to be in sight of the surface at all times. For the NPPL(SSEA/SLMG), the restriction is 5km, so para(4) doesn't apply.

Easy way to remember all this (for typical PPL aeroplane drivers below FL100 outside CAS):

VFR = 5 km vis, 1000ft/1500m clear of cloud.
Below 3000ft a.ms.l and in sight of the surface, same vis but 'clear of cloud' - no specific height or distance.
Below 3000 ft a.m.s.l 'clear of cloud' and in sight of the surface and at 140KIAS or less, the 5km is reduced to 3000m unless you've got an IMCR, when it comes down to 1500m. Which is about 10 seconds away from meeting someone else coming the same way head-on at the limit....:(

It seems that, under €urocracy, the PPL restricted minima will continue to apply to non-EASA aircraft flown on a legacy UK PPL (without IMCR/IR) - but if you were to fly them on an EASA part-FCL PPL (or the wretched LAPL), you could fly down to the 1500m limit as per my last ANO quote above......as you could for EASA 'aircraft which are not helicopters'. Utterly confusing and total madness - I don't think that the consequences of this have been examined adequately yet by the CAA, which to be fair is utterly maxxed out by €urocracy at the moment.


* paras (5) and (6) only apply to helicopters.

[Whopity]

I don't think that the consequences of this have been examined adequately yet by the CAAIf they were to sit back and do a meaningful safety analysis, rather than running around in circles producing garbage, that you keep amending for them, they might find there is a very simple and logical way forward without all the proposed madness!

[BEagle]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/flypig7.gif

;)

.........

[BillieBob]

Whopity, you're a dangerous radical. You'll be asking for course syllabi to be based on a training needs analysis next - ludicrous!!

[xrayalpha]

And you have forgotten the UK CAA-only induced madness of the NPPL minimas:

For a NPPL microlighter flying a Eurostar below 3,000ft: 3km in flight vis outside controlled airspace

For a NPPL SSEA pilot flying a light aircraft Eurostar below 3,000ft: 5km vis outside controlled airspace.

Uh?

Especially as one of our chaps has just bought a light aircraft Eurostar and reregistered it as a micro one!

[BEagle]

In which case, perhaps we might need to increase the Microlight minima....?

'Microlights' were originally the result of a clandestine love affaire between a strimmer and a tent. The rules were written accordingly. Then more and more much more capable aircraft such as the Eurostar started to appear and fly under 'Microlight' rules never intended for such aircraft years earlier.

A few started to crow about how much better their 'Microlights' were than archaic old relics such as C150s. Whilst very true, we suggested that they should STFU if they didn't want some grown ups taking an unhealthy interest and starting to query why they weren't regulated as a C152 would be...

A line had to be drawn somewhere. In 9 years, no-one has proposed changing NPPL VFR minima.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

unless you've got an IMCR, when it comes down to 1500m. Which is about 10 seconds away from meeting someone else coming the same way head-on at the limit....
So? With the IMCR you can fly in the cloud and be zero seconds away from meeting someone else coming the same way.

How many IMCR holders have never done this (ie, have never flown in cloud)? How many IMCR holders have hit someone else in cloud?

[BEagle]

If you're stupid enough to fly in IMC without a service of some sort, then that's probably true.

Are there still idiots around who put their trust in the 'big sky theory'?

[mad_jock]

yep.

You don't sometimes have much choice in some bits of Scotland.

Ullapool has always been a bit of a black spot at the base of the advisory route.

[Intercepted]

If you're stupid enough to fly in IMC without a service of some sort, then that's probably true.

Are there still idiots around who put their trust in the 'big sky theory'?

If you read the statistics you will find some disturbing conclusions about mid-air collisions. Most of them actually occurs on a nice and sunny day in 10k+ visibility!

With this in mind, we are actually in more need of a Traffic Service in CAVOK than we are in 1.5K visibility or IMC. Sorry, but this is what the "big sky theory" is about. :hmm:

[mad_jock]

that its huge and aircraft are very small in comparison so the chances of them being in the same place at the same time is very remote.

But ships and aircraft for many years have proved that it doesn't quite work the way we think

Sorry misread your post and I agree its far safer operating with a cloud base of 600ft and a RVR's of 700m in VIZ of 200m in class G than CAVOK

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If you're stupid enough to fly in IMC without a service of some sort
Well, you can always get "a service of some sort", such as a basic service from London Information, but some of us have jobs and only get to fly at weekends when there isn't any radar service.

And when there is a radar service, so what? "Traffic in your two o'clock, converging, no height information." Well, it's 100:1 that they're bimbling along at 2,000' VFR below the cloud, isn't it; but if they were in the cloud too what would you do about it? Sure you could turn right a bit, but if you divert around all of those you'll never get anywhere.

[Pull what]

The questions (2) are


(1) From what I understand, UK VMC minima when above 3000 AMSL but below FL100 are 5km visibility; 1500m and 1000 feet from cloud. However, I cannot visualise how this works.

First of all its AT or above, not above;

Try and understand why the legislation exists, it’s to protect aircraft from flying into the scenery and each other. Airspace at or above 3000 feet gets a bit more serious with more en-route public transport flights and faster civilian aircraft that need more time and space to manoeuvre. What the legislation seeks to do is to put a bubble around an aircraft to provide this time and space, whereas you are unlikely to reverse into a mountain another faster aircraft can approach in any direction or/and could be climbing or descending too. The mix of units is purely because we measure visibility in metric units and vertical distance and visibility in feet in the UK.



(2) Secondly, can PPLs without any additional ratings fly out of sight of the surface?

Answer, no, never-see schedule 8 of the ANO.

FLIGHT CREW OF AIRCRAFT—LICENCES, RATINGS, QUALIFICATIONS AND MAINTENANCE OF LICENCE PRIVILEGES.

I wont do a Beagle and demonstrate copy and paste ability or ability to over complicate and confuse, you should seek it out and read it yourself, that’s one of the aims of the exam, familiarisation with the definitive, legislative documents


You are confused because you are dealing with two separate bits of legislation, one on VMC minima and one on Licence Privileges. Its good to read books on aviation law buts its also beneficial to refer to the statutory instruments.