A320- Loss of AP,FD, A/THR

[channel4]

Grateful if i could get some advice from Pilots,

If you experience loss of AP, FD, A/THR on approach for example (eg. Flap/Slat fault on approach/G+Y hydraulic loss etc)...

and you therefore want to go around (or fly direct to ) and hold over the fix (eg. VOR) for missed approach (or any other fix), which naturally gives you time as a crew to prepare for the approach properly and accordingly.

My question is, as you know the workload (particularly for G+Y failure) is immense. The PNF has to perform ECAM/Status/summary etc whilst PF is required to handfly without AP,FD,A/thr, communicate with ATC and monitor PNF procedures.

In this case as PF, would you handfly to the holding fix and perform holds using raw data whilst hand flying? Would this not take up concentration which could better be used to monitor ATC and PNF actions etc? Or do you have another technique which relieves the workload of having to handfly holding patterns (or a procedure) with raw data ? If so, what do you do/request normally, continuous radar vectors to maintain aircraft separation?

There are certain failures which require considerable workload and interaction between PF and PNF (eg. Unreliable speed procedure). I imagine to have to hand fly and hold over a fix whilst trying to resolve a problem may take up more concentration than to simply ask for continuous radar vectors or something alike which can help PF relieve workload.

Whats your opinion and what technique would you use (or have used) as PF in such a case when the workload is extremely high?

C4

[Microburst2002]

Always ask for ATC help.

ATC will offer a lot of help, sometimes too much. So they would happily accept to keep you within 25 miles from the airfield giving vectors to you ocasionally. You can also request an altitude block so that the levels above and below you are clear, just in case you boost your altitude (elevator failures, etc...). You can almost forget about navigation since you are above MSA within 25 and the controller is separating you from other traffics.

"we have a technical problem, request vectors to remain 25 miles within the airport while we do the troubleshooting" could be a way of requesting that to the ATC.

"we have a technical problem, we are having difficulties to maintain level flight. Request altitude block from 7000 to 5000 ft"

You can alternatively request an extended hold.

With the dual hydraulics you still have FD and A/THR, which makes those scenarios piece of cake, once you understand the nature of the problem and the sequence of the procedure. If you also lose automation... That means the TRE is a baaaad mthrfukr!

[channel4]

Really useful advice!

Cheers MB2002 :ok:

[X-BleedOpen]

Microburst is totally right.

What I normally do in the sim when I think holding is a bit too demanding according to the current workload, is asking for:

heading 090 for 15 NM and a left/right turn onto a heading of 270 for another 15 NM... you can do this with any heading... it is a kind of hold, but of course you don't need to "navigate" that much and you can still use a bit of extra brain resources in monitoring your PNF, etc.

:-)

[Artificial Horizon]

Depends on the Checky aswell. My last sim I did exactly as above and was extensively debriefed about my 'lack' of command ability due to handing over the control of the navigation of my aircraft to ATC. I piped up and said that I thought it showed 'good command ability to offload as much as possible to concentrate on the problem'. We had a bit of an argument and the net result was I got marked down. :\

[I-2021]

Artificial Horizon,

In my opinion you did a very good move. You used all the available resources to handle the situation and ATC in a radar environment is a very useful tool. As a Captain you are responsible for the safest course of actions. Is it safe to ask for radar vectors ? Yes, obviously if you know where you are going. Is it safe to have at least another couple of eyes looking at you from the ground and ready anytime to give you what you need ? Yes. Is it safe to have someone telling you "according to my radar you're not going where you want to, check your navigation" ? Yes.
So where's the problem ?:ok:

Cheers.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Channel 4,

If you experience loss of AP, FD, A/THR on approach for example (eg. Flap/Slat fault on approach/G+Y hydraulic loss etc)
Microburst2002: we have a technical problem, we are having difficulties to maintain level flight. Request altitude block from 7000 to 5000 ft
You'll be In ALT Law (like AF 447) but you will have IAS (unlike AF447).

Guys - if some can't fly level in the sim, and make a descent attempt at holding with both engines working and some ECAM procedures to work through - is the problem the aircraft is too difficult to manage or the crews' ability?

[Microburst2002]

With a dual elevator fault you might well bust a flight level. I have never experienced it nor practiced in the sim, either, but I have known of real life cases where the crew requested altitude blocks.

with dual hydraulic or slats/flaps jammed you have no problem with that, even without AP/FD.

some checkys will screw you no matter what. I bet that if you had flown the holdings he would have screwed you for not requesting ATC assistance.

Of course, when being given vectors you still have to mind your navigation. specially with picky checkies. One advantage of the "vectors to remain 25 miles withing the airfield" is that a mere glance to the DME will tell you if navigation is OK. within 25, OK, approaching 25, be alert until they give you another vector, or even request it right away. Minimum brain power waste for navigation, maximum for troubleshooting.

[Slasher]

Rule #1 Fly the aircraft!

Rule #2 See Rule 1.

Even in a damn Airbus there is no need to rush things. The first
thing is to FLY the aircraft safely, THEN to attend the problems at
hand. If that means the PF needing the PNF to assist him till things
settle down then so be it.

This is best demonstrated during an EMERG CONFIG or DUAL HYD
while on final approach - let the PF fly the bloody thing while the
PNF does radio and monitoring a safe flight path. Once that's been
achieved, and the PF can cope with his own workload from thereon,
the PNF can proceed with the ECAM.

There might not necessarily be a Radar service out in the boonies,
which means the above para is VERY important as the crew will
have to be accurate in navigation and situational awareness.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi MB2002,

With a dual elevator fault you might well bust a flight level.
You'll still have both (*) elevators working, which are adequate.

Do crews find the aircraft just too difficult to manually fly in ALT LAW?

Edit. (*) Thanks Slasher. Brain fart to previous aircraft type!

[Slasher]

ALT LAW is nothing. In fact I fly the sim much better in DIRECT
LAW, although a lot of Scarebus drivers seem to be terrified of it.


You'll still have both outboard elevators working

What aircraft you talking about RRR? I thought this was about the 320.

[Microburst2002]

If there is no radar, then you can fly the holding, of course.

But don't forget that Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Fight means

both piltos Aviate (one handling, the other monitoring that handling and assisting)
both pilots Navigate (one handling, the other monitoring that handling and assisting)
both pilots Communicate (one speaking, the other listening what is being said)
both pilots Fight the emergency (one reading ECAM or QRH and pushing buttons, the other listening and monitoring what is being read and pushed)

If one flyes while the other is carrying out procedures the crew is split in two. This can be necessary sometimes, but if you can avoid it, it is better to remain a single team.

So if you just have to worry about keeping within 25 miles, all the better, you can stay together and aviate, navigate, communicate and fight more effectively.


Alternate law handling qualities can vary a lot from one set of failures to another. Without elevators I am sure you can have difficulties for altitude control. With dual hydraulic you can fly very nicely.

I love flying in direct law, but I didn't in the beggining, the reason being lack of proper training. The fact that you have to trim doesn't mean that you will feel any forces in the stick, so you have to get used to very smooth stick deflections, and that's all. Looks like flying with the microsoft FS...

[shortfuel]

channel4,

Why would you lose your FD in the first place? Very very few failures lead to loss of FD. At least those you mentioned leave you with FD...and holding manually with FD is a no-brainer even w/o A/THR.