Is Ag. Flying considered a poor career choice?

[plucka]

while responding to another thread it was pointed out to me that the reason there was an Ag. pilot shortage is that no-one wants to do it.

Is this true?

The reason there is a shortage is that when the drought hit some pilots had to get work elsewhere and a few retired.
Now the drought has broken there are not enough of us left.

With the ever increasing worldwide demand for food I think Ag. is a pretty safe career choice.

So do you fresh CPL holders consider Ag. at all, or is it Instructor Ratings and MECIR's only?

[Basil]

Best consistent L1011 lander I've met was ex ag. and, I regret to have to admit, Australian :O
Never done it myself.
Re 'safe career choice', I get the impression that, if you don't pay attention all the time, it can be a short career choice :sad:

[VH-XXX]

You have to be prepared to move residence moderately frequently to chase the work. It's certainly not a 9-5 flying job. I know very good ag pilots not doing it long term because the lifestyle is not for them. Can be seasonal but on the other hand if you are into ag flying, then fire bombing is an option for you, but again, depends where you want to live.

You need a good attention span, if you stuff up, you will probably die.

[plucka]

I agree, but this forum is full of threads from people wonderering if they should move north looking for their first job that may pay 25k per year, so they obviously are happy to travel.

There is also plenty of people complaining about pay and conditions.
Ag. pays well right from your first job.

So I am wonderering if these people have thought about Ag.

I know of two new Ag. pilots who are both now flying turbines and will make well over 100k for their first year flying. Both of them have less than 400hrs total time.
Yes it can be dangerous and it is not for everyone, but you would have to agree, this is a much better return on your investment than the alternatives...

[glekichi]

I was quite interested in going to ag flying but every time I bumped into an ag pilot anywhere they all told me that there was no work and that you needed a LOT more experience then what I had, which was around 800hrs at the time.

I certainly never, ever heard of an ag company looking for a pilot that is not previously ag experienced.

Now a mate of mine that runs an ag outfit tells me experienced guys are making $20k+ a month doing contract work and that they just can't find enough guys.

[arnellis]

$20k in aud a month?? :eek: Where do I sign?? :E

[plucka]

Hey Glekichi,

At the Australian conference a couple of weeks ago, finding new pilots was a fairly hot topic. This is why I want to know if people even consider this career path.
I wonder if Ag is even mentioned as a career in the flying schools/clubs these days?

Times have sure changed since you showed some interest in the industry.

[Checkboard]

So do you fresh CPL holders consider Ag. at all, or is it Instructor Ratings and MECIR's only?
My CPL days are 20 years ago now, however I was always told, anecdotally, that Ag required a heap of hours, and you would probably spend your first year as ground crew preparing chemical loads and refuelling the aircraft from drums at the local strip as "preparation"...

Can a brand new CPL reasonably expect to be accepted into an Ag job with 250 hours total?

Aerial Agricultural Association of Australia (http://www.aerialag.com.au/site/index.asp?pageID=44)

[Dreamflyer1000]

Im interested to see where this thread goes. I am a fresh (ish) CPL with 350hrs total, and want to go ag. Its the only place I want to go.. So I would be interested to hear from anybody who has gone down the road with a fresh licence, and what is to be expected in that area. then, and now. Because they are so short of pilots (so people are saying), does that mean less time mixing/fueling, more chance being picked up and trained with low hours?

People who have gone into the industry, did you do your Ag Rating BEFORE looking for work, or after you secured a job (or job promise)?

[plucka]

Hey Checkboard,

Yep, people are getting their first Ag. flying job with 250hrs total time. Generally in a piston, Agwagon, Pawnee etc but alot of them are in a turbine within a year.
12 Months mixing/ground work is still a good idea.

My advice to a CPL holder that was thinking about Ag, would be to get a mixing job, and there is plenty around, to see how the industry works.
If they are still keen after that, then go and do your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k.
If they are any good they will soon have a job.:ok:

[Dreamflyer1000]

what are the dollars and cents like mixing? Reason I ask, is if its poor, I should hang around what I'm doing at the moment, and make some 'push me through' money before I go slog again...
If anybody knows..

[plucka]

Dreamflyer,

I started Ag flying in 1999 with 250hrs TT. Back then you had to do 1000hrs in a piston before anyone would give you a job in a turbine,
Times have changed.

If you want to be an Ag pilot go mixing now. You should be able to save the money for your rating within six months. After that you should be set.
Not many operators will pay for your Ag rating although I have heard of many tax free deals and assistance given to those that would commit to their employer.

The best place to find a job is from within the industry.

Good luck.

[plucka]

common mixing rates, $25/hr with some long hours over the season.

Or some pay weekly retainer between $600 and $800 a week plus a percentage of the aeroplane your mixing for. 2-3% is common. which means about an extra $20/hr, flight time only.

Feel free to p.m. if you need some more info.

[multime]

We are experiencing the boom times again in Australia. This is how it should be. I was loading 3 - 502,s a night in my early days on $2000 plus a week then the drought and reality hit. I was back in NT flying charter for a meager $430 after tax.! C****air !
I was prepared this time around.
Lifes good. Boom and bust. Noodles versus T Bones.
If you can get your hands dirty, mechanical, work hard, really hard, have a Stickability instinct and never give up, even i will admitt the rewards are worth the pain.
At present your committment will pay off.
Wheres HarleyD.? World of wisdom.
Goodluck
M:ok:

[185skywagon]

Good to hear things are lining up for you, multime. It's been a long time eh.
185.

[lilflyboy262]

I dont know what it is like across the ditch, but when I was doing my training, all the ag pilots were frowned upon.
They were the "Cowboy Kamikaze pilots, of which no airline in their right mind would want to hire." Obviously these are not my own thoughts, but those of the people who trained me to fly.
I watched these guys in awe as they would come down and hit that same spot on the runway time and time again no matter the conditions.

I don't know whether it was like this the length of the country, but it could be a pretty big pointer as to why none of these guys will go anywhere near a ag plane, and instead spend 3 months pulling beers in the hope of that first gig.

[plucka]

I was worried this may be the response. In years gone bye it would of been a pretty fair view of the industry.
However we have worked hard to change this perception and now the majority of the industry is full of well trained professionals.
This is how we would like to be viewed anyway, but I believe we still have some work to do to convince the rest of the aviation world.

[solowflyer]

It has been a long haul over the last few years but ag is now in boom mode hopefully for a long while more. You can make allot of money very quickly but job security is always lingering in the back of your mind. Rain is what keeps an ag pilot in a job, as long as it keeps raining there will always be an job there for the taking however as soon as the rain stops so does the work.

The pilots making the big coin are contract pilots, once the work is finished they are on the look out for the next job usually in a different part of the country or even over seas. there are operators that have full time positions pilots. Although they may not make as much as a contract pilot this is offset by having secure job with regular work and being able to be home every night.

It is not a lifestyle for everyone often living out of suitcase chasing the work in rural areas. I have seen many people come and go over the years as they cant handle the lifestyle. All I can suggest is if you are interested check out AAAA web site or fieldair's web site, get in touch with some operators and have a go at loading and see if you like it or not before committing to a rating. As for earning money loading it can be very good especially if loading 2 or 3 turbines it is possible to earn close to or more than what the pilots earn plus meals and accommodation are usually supplied.

There has never been a better time to enter the industry than now.

[Metro man]

It depends what you want to do for your career, much better to be a happy ag pilot than a miserable airline pilot.

Be careful though of thinking you can use ag flying as a stepping stone to build hours and make some money before moving on up the ladder. Once you're in it can be difficult to get out as the skills are very different to passenger operations, low level VFR single pilot versus instrument flying multi crew CRM and SOPs.

I knew a couple of ag pilots who are now left seat on wide bodys with major airlines but they are very much the exception.

[mattyj]

I would've here in NZ but it takes too long as a loader driver to get a start..and it costs waaay too much!!...still my other options haven't worked out that great either :rolleyes:

[birddog254]

Gday
Im CPL, about 650-700TT, Pretty keen on going AG. One major obsticle. Im sick of being remote. Is it possible to do Ag, starting out and once consolidated and live in a decent town with pubs and women and all the fun stuff?

[plucka]

Hey Birdog,
There are some Ag bases in towns that don't meet your criteria, but plenty that do. You may find, like others have, that you can live where you like and just go and do the busy seasons at these remote places. Now things have picked up again you can make a pretty good wage in four months, then spend the rest of the year sitting on the beach!

[pedro robiro]

A lot of these threads seem to be centered around Money.If that is your only goal i think you are doing it for the wrong reason.I believe it is a accident waiting to happen.Iam in this job for the long haul and iam in my 35 year.Love the job ,has given me great experiences around the world.I have been through recessions and good times.Take a average over 10 years for example and the average wont be 100k.Also there a lot of good jobs at times in piston type A/C,Your location can have bearing on the type of job which your family could be dissadvantaged and some locations suit the family better.
Signed Fletch

[Mimpe]

I recently studied Ag flying for my aviation medicine course, and you can talk to the pro's of course. Its regarded as a pretty tough and demanding way to make a buck, especially in the heat of the Australian non winter..

[multime]

Pedro - In response my reply wasn,t money based, just to show a young pilot in good times alls not lost. Theres been many times where i have given up on an industry i believed would support myself and family. I was mistaken. Drought, economic times and 6 years ago in Aus anyway an over supply of Ag Pilots. This is no longer the case. I became very disgruntalled being told season after season they,d love to have me back. (Loading). But no position. So i did the hard yards. It paid off. Enough said.

C185 - Yes its been a very very long road. ! Can,t believe i,m still here.

[mcgrath50]

In general, is it preferable to have a year or two of working (up north or wherever) under your belt first, or just rocking up with your new CPL to get involved?

[plucka]

Hey McGrath,
In my opinion, just get involved.
You could have ten years experience flying 210s up North, you will still have to do your 'apprenticeship' mixing then start again at the bottom in Ag.
In two or three years time the job prospect market may have changed dramatically too.
My advice is if you think you might be keen just jump in boots and all.
Good luck.

[airag]

People need to be aware that , although experienced Ag' pilots are harder to find now than in previous years , it doesn't mean fresh CPL holders looking to build time toward an airline career should think about an Ag Rating.

Meto Man said it well , they are two very different disciplines with very limited cross overs in skills .

I would also be very wary telling prospective pilots they will be flying turbine powered machines with less than 500 hours Ag ( plus your CPL etc ) , this would be the exception rather than the rule by a country mile .

For starters no insurance Co. will touch you (the operator MAY elect to forgo cover ) , however perhaps more importantly a low hour pilot flying turbines in Ag operations is usually a recipe for disaster of some sort and few responsible operators will do so .

Certainly if you are seriously considering Ag' as a career a season or two of loading will show what it's all about and you can make an informed decision whilst meeting some great people in locations most city dwellers will never see.

[Skydiveandy]

Can you guys recommend somewhere in Victoria to do the rating.

Andy

[plucka]

Barry and Tim Foster at Woorayal (spelling) Air Services, in Leongatha.
Or I think feildair are doing them again in Ballarat.

[Lasiorhinus]

Barry Foster at Leongatha.

Gerard Lappin at Latrobe Valley.

[Flying Binghi]

...your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k



plucka, what training do you get for the 20K ?

I geuss a year or two mixing will give yer the basics re chemicals/fert/seeding. What trainings involved in the flying part ?





.

[plucka]

Hey Binghi,

The flying training is 40hrs comprised of both dual and solo. Some training places have dual controlled Ag planes, some use 180s and 185s for the dual and a single seat Ag plane for the solo.
From memory we started by doing alot of 500ft stalls in turns, then went through to flying overloaded aircraft, dumping, application techniques and use of the gps for tracking.
There is alot to learn and and alot to unlearn as it is quite different from nearly all other aspects of aviation.

[Fondair]

Hi,
Could someone be kind enough as to explain in detail what is involved in 'loading' and 'mixing' jobs?

Search function has failed me.

Here we go...
F-AIR

[185skywagon]

Fondair,
in simple terms:
Agplanes take stuff where people want it put.
Mixers/loaders make sure that the "stuff" is the correct product for that particular job etc.
Product can be liquid or solid(granular or powder)
They ensure the correct amount goes into the machine.
They make sure turnarounds are quick and efficient, allowing the machine to be out making money.

Spending time as a mixer/loader before becoming an ag-pilot, would and should be considered an essential part of becoming a well rounded operator.

Some may beg to differ, I am sure.

185.

[HarleyD]

WoW!!!

pilots who actually want to get INTO ag.....who'd a thunk it.

I think that the main consideration is whether this is the career that you really really want to get into. If you are keen and dont mind a bit of traveling for the first few years, then GO FOR IT !!!

If you think that this is just another stepping stone then whoa boy... this really might not be for you. long ( and I mean waaaaay long....) hours every week. before daylight til long after dark, even all night. you smell bad , get covered in mud dust and unmentionable stuff, do heaps of driving, have to stay in pubs with other, often liver damaged, Ag pilots and the girlies do not find you even as attractive as a jetstar 1st officer. You do not have to like C&W music, but it seems to help, as that is often the only thing on the juke box. Ag is a career choice, even a short career (5 - 10 years) will require significant investment in money (to get started) and from there on iit is mainly blood sweat tears and divorce, so there is an up side.

There are many good aspects:

Stuff the noodles....steak and chips every night.

Your really are an elite pilot. these flight skills are way beyond what you can imagine. it is a club of exclusive fellowship where only those who have been on the inside can understand the realities of these operations. That is why often a good way of getting a seat is to do some mixing or loading to get a paid insight into this world.

Mixing and Loading:
Not surprised that this does not google well. again due to the closed nature of this industry those in the know are aware of what these terms mean. Loading/Mixing is a duty that is the lowest rung into a single seat cockpit of a 1500hp ag plane. It mainly involves all the things referred to earlier in this post, except you get up earlier (yes even earlier) than the pilot(s) and often get to bed later (read very very late), as well as doing huge amounts of driving it is your responsibility to do the following,

Mixer- service truck/pickup, refill avgas/avtur drums, go to depot to collect the correct type and quantity of agricultural chemicals, load them on the truck/pickup. Tow a tanker/mixer trailer over dirt roads that turn to grease with a sprinkle of rain to find a water source from which you can pump the tanker full and locate to the 'strip'. when on site and in the correct optimal loading position (many variables too hard to explain there) you can then suit up and carefully mix the 'toxic cocktail' ( thank you 4 corners) from the selection of drums that you have. you must exactly mix the correct ratios and quantities to meet the area to be covered at a specific rate, divided by the size of the load to be carried each flight, multiplied by the total number of flights. stuff this up and you can cause a lot of grief (again to complicated to go into). then you pump the correct amopunt into the aircraft hopper while it sits on the pad with the engine idling (pockta-pocketa piston, or screaming garret turbine). you move into the aircraft while it is still rolling like a formula one pit crew member to connect the QR coupling, pump in the chemicals and top off with water to the level the pilot indicates whilst rinsing the mix tank, close all relevant, valves, disconnect the coupling at the plane and wave the pilot off while you get sand blasted by the prop wash. Oh, I forgot, you also will clean the pilot's windscreen (vertical strokes) and possibly top off fuel as well during the loading process. In fact you are a one man pit crew. while the aircraft is away, 'having fun' you will check to B&S for fuel and oil, comp and measure the next load of chemicals, replenish the water tank, triple rinse, crush and stow empty drums, listen to the CB, keep a SAR watch on your plane, and eat your curling sangas with tea from your stanley stainless steel thermos.

Loading ( of granulated and prilled solids) s different, you need a truck license and must be either a hard working fantastic front end loader driver with a good eye and heaps of common sense who pays attention to exactly what the pilot wants and is good with a spade, or you are an utter imbecile. these seem to be the only two options.



Ag is not for those who want to stick their toe in the ...air. it is about as full on a flying job as there is. Every day something different, well maybe not every day, but enough to not become boring, and the flying to the absolute margins of performance ability and economy. Every take off is max performance, if it isn't you are bludging and losing commission. I have waxed lyrical in other threads about some of the speccy things that you will do and see, but you really have to go there to understand.

If you always wanted to do it, this is about as good a time as any, get out there and start mixing and saving $$..... and look forward to the next drought and bust, but by then you may well be an established pilot with one of the better full time jobs.

[Fondair]

Fantastic wall of text Harley. Very insightful for those not in the know!

[Miles Long]

Absolutely outstanding post Harley D.
Spot on.
One other point about ag flying; I always felt it was more about the ag bit than the flying bit....ie understanding farming and the farmers needs and using the aircraft as another agricultural tool like a combine harvester or tractor.
I also believe the skills aquired in this field are no burden whatsoever to carry into any other aspect of aviation, including airline flying where I now earn my steak n chips.
Cheers

[walgi]

Just thought i would put in my two cents worth. I grew up in northern NSW on a cotton farm and after school went mixing and marking for a ag company for a couple months. After flight school i was determined to get my ag rating and do that for a carrer. Before i started the ag training my father called me and said he had just spoken to aan ag pilot. He had told my father that i should try to get into the airline business while iam young and said if by the time your 30 and you still want to be an ag pilot go for it.

Iam now 30 and although i still envy the ag pilots and where they get to live and the fun of polling the a/c around, i have to say as a lifestyle, pay etc.. the airline flying is in my opinion the better option. For me i have had my fun flying around in places like PNG, Cambodia and Solomon Islands and as you get older i think as i mentioned lifestyle is the main factor.

Anyway thats just my opinion i still think ag flying would be great though:)

[osmosis]

To any budding aggy out there Harley has it right enough and I have the following to add:

In pre-GPS days we used to charge by the acre and Farmer Brown would roll up with a mud map if we were lucky or a vague description if we weren't but in either case there was the temptation to undervalue the size of the area being treated. All calculations were done by the loady and one could allow for discrepancies if he knew his customer well enough.

We sometimes started so early in the morning in a new location we went without breakfast or the ability to get anything for later on, not even drinks. So, on occasion, we'd go all day with nothing to eat or drink and finally get to the pub after dark, drop a couple of schooners of Tooheys New down and crash off without having anything to eat and do the same thing next day at dawn. Even drunk water straight out of a murky dam.

Another thing is the stink. Some months ago one of our bretheren in the Rotary Forum wrote of the stink of the chemicals in our clothes. The only protective gear we had was cotton overalls and elbow length gloves. After it all came off we still stank after a shower and our boots were impregnated with it. Such was the nature of the beast back then.

Another thing was the camloc hose fittings; they were good but not infallible. As the aircraft rolled up we wasted no time and ran in toward the connector and plugged her in and snapped the camlocs home but we had to ensure we turned the right taps on/off in the correct sequence. If we didn't we risked pressure from the pump forcing the camlocs open. Didn't take long to work that one out.

Where possible we operated out of tankers but there were a few times when we drew water directly out of dams for livestock. A risky operation that always left me on edge should any chemical be drawn into the dam.

Then after it was all over, the smaller jobs anyway, it was time to collect payment. It was not uncommon for Farmers Brown to hang around watching things but seemed to disappear at the end of the day. Payment was usually made at the pub if that happened. Dogs. Working dogs were okay if they were on the back of a farmers ute but on one occasion some bystander brought his German Shepard along and it took a dislike to the shining propellor each time the aircraft approached despite a few blunt words of advice. Animals need to be away from aircraft.

I suspect advice given earlier in this thread about ag flying being very separate from airline flying is even more true today. If you've got your heart set on airlines then follow the airlines path, the ag path is a very separate one indeed.

[HarleyD]

Hi There Walgi,

yeah, you are likely right about career streaming at the start of your flying career, for all those starting out, and that as far as the airline flying goes that was the best for you. the point i was making is that you actually need the burning desire for Ag, which you did not have, for whatever reason. Most Ag pilots will advise against it as a career to any that ask, especially when times are a bit tougher and or there is a drought. this is the start of the filtering process. Even if you push past that there and numerous other hurdles that may deflect you from this job.

You should only go Ag if that is REALLY what you want. If the push is not there it is certainly not the career for anyone who wants just to hour build, or fill in some time, or because there is a high demand. it is important to have a strong desire that this is the type of flying for you. Also consider that as well as the boom bust, drought, produce price fluctuations, irrigation issues and a myriad of other influences Ag is more than hazardous, it is actually dangerous. I have been to a lot of funerals over the years and have been straight lucky to avoid my own. don't kid yourself this is an aspect that also should be considered.

I have to say that the actual flying skills that i acquired in my ag years have been a great advantage in my afterlife career, solely in GA, and that i have now flown in about 26 countries (i think). I have flown into remote highlands PNG strips and other Asian countries as well as lots of other stuff in the Americas, and Europe. my log book shows that in the past few months, the last few ILS's I have done have been in Sri Lanka, the UK and France, and that I have flown in 10 countries in the last 12 months, so I don't think that being an ag pilot has limited my career, although I am sure that you most likely stay in better hotels than I do. The PNG stuff is about as close as I have got to the type of skills that Ag demands, but also has some unique ( mainly weather and culture related) issues of its own.

Miles Long

You are spot on about the farmer thing. rural, and remote rural folk are different to suburban type of people and need special skills to earn their respect and trust. The thing to remenber is that 'the secret to success is sencerity, once you can fake that you have it made', ha ha. that attitude will not get you any work, especially repeat work, even if you you are king of the throttle jockeys. A grower does not give a toss if you fly the job inverted and backwards, all he wants is the job done as well as is possible. he wants his seeding/spreading/spraying etc perfect right to the fence line and not one inch past, at the excact right (evenly applied) rate, to last the longest and provide him with the most cost effective outcome. that this is what makes 'good' ag pilots good.

I say to those who really, and I mean REALLY, want to go the Ag trip, do it. The industry is in as good a position as it has been for a loooong time and this may be the only opportunity you get for a leg up the totem pole for a while to come.

If you can be discouraged from it, then it is really not for you and you would be better advised to go the more 'sensible' route that at least keeps the mud off your boots and puts a lovely shine on your dark blue trousers. And you will smell a lot nicer as well, and maybe even stay married, and you can drink espresso and not international roast, and you will have proper leave and holidays, and your 4WD will be a Prado, not a dropside tray, and you get to spend at least some time at home, not hanging around with other Ag pilots and mixers. Hmmm almost talked myself out of now.

HD

[HarleyD]

Good one Osmosis, easy to see that you have been there, in the days of freehand marking and humans ( ehem.... farm hands) marking by waving a brown hessian bag (the closest that could find to a white flag) and pacing out random intervals, usually directly below the power line that you told them to stay away from. At the end of a job on s couple of occasions I chased them across the paddock and put them in a channel so they would take notice of what I briefed them about next time.

Those were the days, Loading from drums, a pump and some lay flay hose, all carried in the empty hopper between jobs along with a couple of jerries of fuel. Brass T jets, and a tobacco tin full of orifice plates , swirl plates and diaphragm rubbers. and a shifter, and a pair of multigrips, a spare tailwheel wrapped in a rag sliding around on the hat tray among the empty Mr Sheen cans and pieces of cleaning cloth of various levels of cleanliness. The lunch box and thermos carefully stowed however.

I remember when times were changing and Sat Nav technology was just arriving into the Ag scene in the early 90s, our chief pilot stomped into the crew room and stated that he had been thinking quite a lot about it and had decided that GST was a good thing. we were gobsmacked as we had not idea he was so concerned with politics, "GST"...."good?" we said and looked at each other..."Yeah...it will be real easy to find your way around the sh!t weather with a GST to guide you".....Ahhhhhh..GPS. thats what I mean GPS. Mind you he also used to talk to his tailwheel each day while p!ssing near it and brief it about his expectations for the day


HD

[osmosis]

Tailwheels. I think they suffered more abuse than what we gave them credit for; easy to replace a tube though. By habit or design I don't know but we never used tailwheels locks and the shimmying these things did on takeoff roll was enormous.

We were standing beside an 88 on a hardstand one day waiting for the old girl to warm up after starting when we heard a single clunk behind us. We turned around and looked toward the rear of the aircraft to see it sitting on it's newly broken tailwheel leg. It broke all on it's own, the aircraft not having moved.

[plucka]

Interesting stories, obviously coming from a wealth of experience. But to those people watching this thread and to all the guys who PM'd me for more information who are wondering about Ag, don't be put off. If you are working to commercial or already have your CPL, but don't want to go down the airline route, Ag can be a very rewarding choice.
I do agree it is only for the very committed, and it is a long hard slog to get your first seat, as with all avenues of commercial aviation.
If you are interested in Ag but don't know enough about it to know if you are committed, I would suggest that having a look from within the industry as a mixer is your best bet. The pay is pretty good and if you don't like what you see you haven't really lost anything, and you know it's not for you, as opposed to always wondering.
Bear in mind, if you had 100 Ag pilots in a group at least 65% of the group will have grey hair. Chances are with another big season in front of us, unfortunately there will be at least one fatal accident this year, ( that statement should be food for thought for those considering Ag ).
So the industry needs some young people coming thro.

I have meet young people doing their cpl x-countries landing at some of the rural strips we work from, who have never heard of Ag, yet alone seen an Ag plane.

So to those of you who are working towards a career in aviation but don't want to fly airlines there is another alternative. It is a long hard slog that takes a big commitment both personally and financially but it may be worth considering or at least some more research.
It is not for everyone, due to all the reasons mentioned in previous posts, but if this thread has made just one student aware of an alternative yet alone consider it then I would suggest it has been a success.

[osmosis]

http://s1.bild.me/bilder/030611/7018246Photo_9.jpg (http://www.bild.me)

[plucka]

Hey Osmosis, at least there's no bald spot....you must wear a Gallet, not an Alpha aye....?

[ozaggie]

Oy! Who's been takin' pictures of my scone?

[Dreamflyer1000]

thanks everybody for your detail on the industry. It has certainly given me a lot to think about.

I'm still not put off by all the horror stories, and grey hair (osmosis ;))

Its great to see this knowledge around, and many of you are willing to share it, and for that, I thank you.

At this stage, for me, I'm going to be heading out looking for a mixing job as soon as the wheat harvest is over for the season, so i can save a little more dosh!

[Ultralights]

34ZJ5AKHWe8

[ozaggie]

One can only hope that the aspiring Ag-Pilot in Australia will not rely too much on the previous YouTube excerpt from another crappy Yank
or Canuck reality TV bull**** show for inspiration. Ain't like that boys and girls.
Depressing really to have a 22yr, 11500hr career reduced to the crappy standards portrayed there.

[Bwater]

"Gerard Lappin at Latrobe Valley"
I spent a week with this guy many...many moons ago for a pac endorsement, Was treated like one of the family and learnt more about the aircraft and tricks to flying it than I expected.

After the week , I was pointed in the direction of a ground job that could have progressed into a flying one after a season. If the worst came to the worst, I would have had a blast and gained another year of experience to help me with my next job.
I turned it down as I wanted to make a go of it with my (Now EX) lady. (aka life sucking leach)

At the time I had 900 hours and 3 years as a loader driver in NZ..... That is the one point in my flying where I still think ...If only I had had the balls to stay...where would I be now.

Now working a 9-5, doing 30 hours a year recreational flying, and still look up everytime an Ag wagon heads past.

If its your thing....ignore the naysayers and chase it!!!

[desert goat]

Hi all-
Thought I'd bump this thread rather than start a new one. Does anyone have an up-to date idea of roughly what ag rating training costs at the moment? Most figures I've seen appear to be a few years out of date. I thought I'd ask on here rather than pestering operators until I've decided for sure whether to pursue it or not.
Like one of the earlier posters, I've been thinking about maybe making a start on the rating (say 10-15 hours) to get some exposure to low-level work, then try to get some work mixing/loading, and then finish the rating if it still seems like a good career option after that.

[solowflyer]

You will still be looking around the 20 g mark. As has been said previously you are better off getting a Loading job first to see if the industry is for you.

[Wally Mk2]

Interesting thread, leanrt a bit about this risky business. I thought I'd like to spend the dieing days (poor choice of words I know)of my flying abilities flying Ag but i lost a mate not that long ago to Ag driving so figured it's simply too dangerous, for me.


Stay safe out there you Ag drivers, yr all nuts!!:ok::ok:
Wmk2

[AU-501]

only if you are a bug.

[Super Cecil]

Wally, like any career you can't really slot into at the end of your working life. Bit like saying I've always liked racing cars so I'll finish my days driving F1 or I'm pretty good at skinning rabbits so I might do some brain surgery to bulk up my retirement fund :8

[Ocean Person]

Basil;

I,ve sent you a PM re L1011's and crop dusters. Regards,

O.P.

[Anthill]

I know a guy who has 20, 000+ hours ag flying. He makes good money during the "on" season. Casual work at 7/11 and glider towing keep him occupied in the "off" season. He seems pretty happy with it all.

[Wally Mk2]

Oh I don't know 'SC' Ag flying like all flying disciplines is just a skill, must like a trade to be learnt, it ain't rocket science (just a lot more dangerous) & I reckon being close to ones end flying wise after having come thru the ranks of GA you would have a LOT more seat of the pants flying ability than some young stud just starting out on Ag.
But hey it's just an opinion no more:ok:


Wmk2

[desert goat]

Thanks Solowflyer, that's roughly what I had in mind.

[HarleyD]

Wally, Maaaate,

Ag planes generally only have ONE engine, so no use to you.

Listen to Super Cecil. Its not that its such a skill thing, its a whole stinky muddy dusty away from home thing, when you really dont need it. Its lifestyle and i have to say, if you think it might just be a bit of a high paying hobby, its so not.

I'm out now, and sometimes there are twinges to go back and make a buck. And then i take a bex and have a lie down.. Or watch some old vhs tapes of doing the between trees and under wires thing. Nuh, It was great at the time, awesome, best flying i ever did, but the IFR flight levels are a world away.

HD

[Wally Mk2]

Yes I know yr right there 'HD' maaaate:) I guess I had a lapse in common sense there for a moment (SE stuff,,,,,eeeekkkk!):)

It's still just a skill though something to be taught/learnt but perhaps going from ILS2ILS isn't that bad it just gets 'skilless' at times & I kinda miss some of the good 'ole days where ya had to think on yr own 3 feet to survive:-)

Wmk2

[poteroo]

Wally, I've heard it said that you need big balls and x-ray visionto survive in ag, and in PNG for that matter. You have these things when you're young.
happy days,

[Flying Binghi]

...I've heard it said that you need big balls...

Eh... up Emerald the other month i heard a lass on the radio telling all that she were doing low level bug killer runs just off the end of the strip. Even looked to be a power line above her as i flew over..:ooh:

Caint be that hard, even girls can do it..:cool:







.

[Fliegenmong]

I understand what was meant about the other You Tube that was posted....this shows nothing of the mud, heat, carcinogenic (?) chemical mixing, guaranteed fatality somewhere etc.....but it's an awesome video!

Sure wish I had the opportunity to have done Ag.!!!! Well done all of you!! :ok:

Aerial Crop Dusting - Australia - YouTube

[Jack Ranga]

Full respect to those doods :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

Jeeeeesus H Christ those guys are nuts!!!:)

Good stick & rudder skills, only hope they live to be ripe old bitter & twisted pilots sitting in their rocking chairs looking back & saying, man we where good!:ok:
I don't think my 'external' bits are that big & am lucky to see a 50" LCD in front of me at my age :-)
That C210 (assuming) was damned low as well.

Careful there 'FB' can't make any sexists comments re girls, they are just as capable & prolly better than most ego men out there but there's enuf M/T kitchens as it is!:E

Wmk2

[Fliegenmong]

I still 'clench up' everytime at around the 4:00 min mark and those wires :eek:

[OZ-G10]

Wires what wires!
o4u_zRjGaoE

[the_rookie]

Probably a stupid question, how do you know where you have and haven't sprayed? Just so you don't do the same patch like 3 times

[Oracle1]

The GPS tells you exactly where you have been

[Flying Binghi]

Before GPS...

One of my school holiday 'jobs' were to stand at one end of a paddock in a brightly colored raincoat while 'Biggles' took aim at me. Then once he had his line i would pace out to the next spot. The raincoat were for if i wern't fast enuf.:)

[FourStar]

You got a raincoat! All I got was a flag to hold up for the Pilot to see.

[emergency000]

I realise this thread is about career choices for pilots, but figured I'd put my $0.02 in.

I feel a bit strange when I think about it: I'm a qualified AME, trained in the airlines, currently working in the airlines and all I want is to get out of the airlines into regional aviation or aerial ag.

The only problem is finding an operator that's hiring or maybe "just looking for now". Any leads would be much appreciated. I'd be willing to relocate for the right job.

While on the topic, I usually answer anyone who asks me, "Have you ever thought of becoming a pilot?" with "Nah, I prefer to keep my feet on the ground." The reality is, with a young family, I'd rather try to see them a bit more often than an airline pilot (or airline AME) job seems to afford. What are my fellow Ppruners' thoughts regarding taking up ag flying, using engineering as a starting point?

Many thanks and stay safe!
Cheers,
John

[Obidiah]

John,

Can't offer you any leads, sorry.

If Ag Flying is REALLY what you want to do then start down the road of researching it. It sounds like you are very much on the outside looking in so a trick might be to take 2 weeks holiday during an Ag season somewhere, rice, cotton etc (which is now) and go and work for an operator. If you want to fly then do 2 weeks mixing/loading but if you think engineering might be a good end destination then try and get a foot in on the workshop floor somewhere. This should give you a quick first hand insight, you will likely know one way or another if it is for you then.

It is possible to find a good operator in a nice piece of Australia and work with a somewhat normal work/life balance. However the money doing so from a flying perspective will be typically a little average, to make 100k + you will likely need to be flexible, move at short notice and work a location for a few months then onto somewhere else.

It can be very hard on family life particularly during the years cutting your teeth, you really want to know that your partner is 100% behind you if go down this road. Your comment about being prepared to relocate for the right job gives me the impression this might not be for you, that's fine no harm in asking etc. If you can grow this comment to "willing to move for any opportunity" then it might be different, I could be wrong just the impression I got.

I don't wish to disuade you but keep in mind that there is a very sobering reality to Ag flying and conservative guys get killed too. Getting killed flying Ag might seem tragic but not half as tragic as the sorrow for those close to you that you leave behind. On a more cheerful note I did 7 years and loved it, bloody hard work though, when the drought broke a few years back I thought of returning, but loved the flying I had moved onto to much. Now it is just a cherished memory that is part of diverse and interesting flying career.

Good luck

[pilotchute]

I thought about it a few years ago and acted. I contacted half a dozen operators and picked one to work for. I got in the car and drove for 8 hours to the place to start work as a mixer.

What wasn't mentioned over the phone was if the company your mixing for doesn't have a piston ag plane your never going to progress

Apparently in the whole of Australia there are only three or so companies still operating piston ag planes.

The few ag pilots I met were of the opinion that the shortage of ag pilots is purely industry self inflicted because nobody wants the added cost of having to operate a piston ag plane for what is essentially training.

[Propstop]

John,
You appear to be in a bit of a bind. The fact that you are employed and trained by airlines will make it extremely hard to get into GA for more reasons than one.
You are going to have to relocate to an ag area; think Moree, St George and other similar places.
GA will be another apprenticeship in many ways as the work is structured differently to the airlines.
Having myself come from airlines and now in GA I have found it is a very satisfying career move but without the perks of airline work.
Go for it if you wish for the career change. Feel free to PM if you wish.

[hiwaytohell]

John
I suggest you contact the Aerial Agricultural Association of Australia for a list of its members.

Then work your way through them.

The fact you are an AME is good. You did not say if you have a rural background.
But coming from the airline industry is not a bad thing at the moment, provided you personally have a good work ethic, because the Ag industry is very conscious of becoming more professional.

Phil Hurst
CEO - Aerial Agricultural Association of Australia
Ph: 02 6241 2100
Fax: 02 6241 2555
Mob: 0427 622 430
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.aerialag.com.au

[Vincent Chase]

Pilotchute,

A quick search of the CASA register returns over 60 C188, over 70 PA25, 30 PA36, 10 or so GA 200, 23 FU24.

That is not counting all the bigger radials and various other piston aircraft. I guess what I'm saying is you have no idea what you are talking about.

[solowflyer]

It is true that most operators are using turbines these days however In my experience if you work hard and show dedication and not likely to take off as soon as your supervision is up allot of operators are usually more than happy to put a an ag wagon, Pawnee etc on line to get you started.

Many operators also have there own maintenance facilities so being an AME will be a plus But expect to get called appon to spin spanners on a regular basis.

[Howard Hughes]

I would argue operating a turbine is easier than operating a piston, especially a radial! :ok:

[Vincent Chase]

The problem is not the engine operation, more so the dramatic increase in aircraft size and speed that comes with a turbine.

5' AGL and max performance turns at 100 kts in a 2 tonne husky V 130 kts in a 5 tonne 502 that has twice the physical dimensions. Think starting in a B200 without flying a Baron first.

[Obidiah]

As above plus the insurance issue of putting a newbie in an expensive bit of kit. Also Ag 2's have a tendency to bend things, a bent Ag Wagon can be overcome and the productive loss taken up by the larger machines in the operators inventory. Bend a turbine during a busy period and likely you will lose customers to your opposition as the clients work won't wait till you source a replacement.

[emergency000]

Thanks for the responses, guys!

I'd probably be more likely to look to work as an engineer and look to get licensed on the aircraft. That not only gives me a fall back qualification but I would guess would make me more employable. I'd likely only consider flying as a career in the medium to long term and in the right circumstances. What those circumstances will be I don't know; I guess I'll know when the time comes.

I'll get on to AAAA some time in the next week or two. Honestly, my current employer pays me rather well, but career progression will be horrifically slow and the way the employer is run, one is expected to pretty much not have a life or family outside of work.

Cheers,
John

[chimbu warrior]

Check your PM's emergency000.

[emergency000]

Yes, I did see. Thanks CW!

[pilotchute]

Vincent,

Next time an experienced ag pilot tells me there are only a few companies out there that would start me on a piston do I tell he he is full of it?

Maybe you can let me know who all these companies are who will let a newbie have a go in a piston ag plane? You don't have to name them. Just a number of how many.

Cheers

[currawong]

pilotchute,

the answer to your question is most probably yes.

are you saying you gave up because your first loading gig did not get you a seat?

How do you think the rest of us got started?

Really sorry it did not work out for you.

[pilotchute]

Currawong,

I could only go on the info given to me by Ag pilots I had met. If a guy who is doing the job tells me that getting a seat will take you upwards of 4 years I will quit whilst I'm ahead.

It is not a lack of enthusiasm just being realistic. I didn't want to still be mixing when I was 30.

[solowflyer]

Took me nearly 7 years on and off to get my first seat.

[currawong]

Realistically,

An Ag 2 working as a mixer is in the holding pattern.

On the spot, ready to go, if not with that operator then with whoever else is hiring.

There are different approaches. Some might say "come load for us and we will have a look at you" or "load for us this season and we will give you your first 100 hours" or "seat is primarily flying but some loading involved"

Many different variations on a theme.

Often involves changing jobs to upgrade/increase experience - just like the rest of aviation...

[Aussie Bob]

you wouldn't want to be flying under wires in a fully laden 802 in high winds

And here is one of the big problems of the ag industry in a nutshell. That is the indescriminate use of chemicals under conditions not suited to aerial application. Plan your drift, do all that but under high winds who knows where the muck you spray ends up.

My brief foray into the ag industry was an eye opener. Toxic stuff incorrectly handled, leaking and half used drums of stuff left to rust in the sun, chemicals stored next to waterways, I could go on and on.

Go on boys, put your crap out in high winds, dump your toxic stuff with nary a care then go home. Its just the countryside right?

Now I know there are some good operators out there, but damn there are some cowboys too!

[desert goat]

Now just hang on a sec-Speaking as a farmer, if the conditions aren't suited to aerial application (high winds etc), why on earth would I go and waste a hell of a lot of my money on a spraying job? This stuff that we are supposedly spraying around indiscriminately costs a fair bit of coin to apply.

[emergency000]

there are some good operators out there, but damn there are some cowboys too!

And that's the entire aviation industry in a nutshell. There'll always be shonky operators as long as there are those willing to pay a cheaper rate and those willing to work for said shonky operators. If employees spoke up regarding safety and environmental breaches, and walked if they weren't addressed, these shonks would be out of business before too long.

Just out of curiosity, Aussie Bob, when was your brief foray in ag? The reason I ask is because I'm looking to get out of the airlines as an engineer into regional, GA or ag and I'm wondering if the AAAA has helped fix things up in the ag industry or not.

Cheers,
John

[Aussie Bob]

My foray in ag was as a mixer in the early '90s. The operator I worked for was credible, competent and is still alive and still operating.

The poor chemical handling I witnessed was mostly the farmers, and I mean no offense, Desert Goat, I am a dairy farmers boy. Just the way it was and still is in places. Some of the ag pilots I meet just need to get the job done and move on, again, just the way it is and its definitely not for me.

Currently my only part in ag is ferrying the odd cropduster about the countryside.

[currawong]

Aussie Bob,

Take what you have to the relevant authorities and have their tickets pulled.

In the meantime, only say what you can prove, would be my advice...

[Aussie Bob]

See above currawong, I dislike authorities, not going there.

[Obidiah]

Aussie bob,

Sadly there is an element of truth in what you have stated, all be it small, but i would like to counter somewhat as it is a bit of an exaggeration and contains a few misconceptions.


you wouldn't want to be flying under wires in a fully laden 802 in high winds


802's aren't flown under wires, they don't fit as a rule. Also the optimum height for spray applications for the likes of M18's and 802's is about wire height. It is all about sedimentation velocity of the chosen droplet size and the influence the aircraft has on the spray pattern.

It is important to understand the relationship between drift and wind. When conducting an application over a crop with a canopy as opposed to bare soil, as a general rule the stronger the wind the less drift.

Sounds counter intuitive but it is factual, the wind creates swirling eddies over the crop that drive the spray through the crop, the result is more spray droplets having an opportunity to come into contact with the plant foliage. Light winds often result in greater off target product drift. Anything less than a 3 kt breeze and you stop and wait until it improves the loss of effectiveness is clearly visible with herbicides under light breezes. There is a qualifier here though, whilst there is less quantity of chemical that drifts off target in strong winds the smaller amount that does can drift further as the water carrier (if water based) evaporates and leaves a fine dry particle of chemical. The other advantage of a strong wind say 15 to 25 kts is that the direction of drift will be easily determined as such it makes planning a job with regard to downwind sensitive areas much more accurate. Light winds tend to waft about in direction and makes the job tricky when working around sensitive areas.

I spent 7 years as an Ag Pilot (left in 03) I came into the industry with a very high standard of environmental awareness and ethics, some may say I border on being a greeny, fair enough. I must say during my time i did see a few things that made me cringe but on the whole I was very proud of the environmental standards adopted by the industry, rarely (but not never) was i put under pressure to bend environmental standards. Although my time was in the southern regions and not on cotton I was impressed the most by the guys who worked the cotton crops. It may not have always been a personal green bent they possessed but by hell 90% were **** scared of a drift claim and would be extremely reluctant to take a risk. If there was a weak link sadly I would have to say it was the mixer crews who were a little slap happy, but their lot falls under the pilots responsibility to some extent so pilots would try to educate the guys, but it is always a balancing act as the ground guys do work hard for little thanks so you can't ride them too hard.

I can confidently imagine in the 10 years I have been out of it that standards have continued to improve from what was already a high standard and that the AAAA's continues to drive the message of high standards and worlds best methods that it always had. The industry was nearly killed off in the mid 80's by cowboys, they learnt the hard way, from that point, the turnaround was impressive.

No one is a fan of pesticides at a simplistic level, an old boss once said,... "I only know one latin word, cide, it means death". But without them yield/area would be down so more area would be needed to produce the same amount. In the history of pesticides there is as i am aware no recorded loss of species attributed to them. There is however a very long and sobering list of extinction attributed to loss of habitat.

If you don't like pesticides and I don't either, then support population control. To quote David Suzuki...."what ever your cause it is a lost cause without population control"

[Centaurus]

then go and do your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k.

You can get a command type rating on a 737 for less than that in USA. Transferable into an Australian CPL, no problem.

[Subversive1]

Quote:
then go and do your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k.
You can get a command type rating on a 737 for less than that in USA. Transferable into an Australian CPL, no problem.


You're correct of course, but I personally would still rather fly ag and SEAT, Centaurus.

Thanks to all the experienced ag pilots who have posted in this thread, there is a lot of useful information here. :ok:

[yr right]

As some one that has grown up in Ag. It's changed so much over the years. As for doggy operators not many of them left. Spray drift is also an issue that is tightly controlled as with chemical cans etc. the industry is not what it was once. Those days are long gone. Like flying under wires. There no old bold Ag pilots. But also pay for pilots is far better than what it once was at all. You canals a great living from it. But remember if you start in it listen listen and listen. Watch watch and watch some more from the people tat are doing it now. When you consider the amount of flying that is varied out in Ag each year and the accident rate it's prove that the industry has grown. Just try and get yourself into the best company you can from the start. You will know who they are.
Cheers and good luck

[desert goat]

There was a thread on here a while back about a documentary being made on the industry ("Seasons" I think it was called)...does anyone know if it's available yet?

[airag]

G'/day Desert goat,

Yes Seasons has just had it's first public viewing at the AAAA Conference in Hobart a couple of weeks ago with very positive reviews. Conflict Films produced the documentary and can be contacted via their website.

[Pearly White]

If you want to know what ag was like back in the day when Pontious was still a -well you know, a long time ago - read Six Feet Over by Peter Charles. Probably still available on Amazon.

[desert goat]

Thanks for that airag- Will see about getting a copy.:ok:

[Lucerne]

Centaurus,

You may well be able to get a 737 type rating for the same outlay as the agricultural rating. However, by that time you will also have outlayed for an instrument rating, possibly an instructor rating, an ATPL, and you can't expect to make the same return on that far greater outlay as the ag pilot's earlier and far higher return.

Thankfully, CASA have granted a dispensation for the operation of 802,s and Dromaders at weights exceeding 5,700kg as the ATPL course bares little relevance to their operation. That, however, doesn't mean that any old punter will find themselves in the seat of an 802. Only about half of the contenders that find employment as loader/mixers will continue on to ag flying positions. Much less than half of those will pregress to the seat of an 802.

Today there are far fewer ag aircraft being operated in 1st world countries due to the characteristic of the large hopper capacity and wide swath width being an unbeatable formula for operational efficiency. Therefore there are less seats available and far less ag hours flown per year. This is not a contraction in the industry by any means. We will probably not see the busy days of the late 1990's again due to some technological cropping advancements and a far greater operational capacity to cover the work.

That equates to far greater advantage to those who reach the coveted seats of the world's increasing fleet of 800 gallon machines.

[Sir HC]

Interesting first post Bess, that's quite the agenda you're pushing.

[Neville Nobody]

Bess where did Lucerne say he was "special"? Is there some history there?


Is persevering and being in the right place at the right time the same as lingering on the fringes of the industry? What is the difference?


Are you branding all Ag plots as "best of a bad bunch"

[Lucerne]

That must have been a bit of a "short circuit" there from Bess. I see he's deleted it. That's probably a good thing.

[Virtually There]

This is a serious question - and obviously comes from a complete city-slicker who knows nothing - but do you guys not worry about some of the chemicals you are handling/spraying and the long-term consequences of exposure to pesticides and herbicides?

I must admit, it's the perception of chemical risk - warranted or otherwise - that has always put me off even considering crop-dusting.

[currawong]

Obviously, exposure is kept to a minimum.

Many industries handle materials that are less than user friendly.

Done properly, it should not present too much of a problem.

[HarleyD]

Virtually There

I am having difficulty grasping your summation that the risk from chemicals is what is putting you off considering a career as an Ag Pilot

I would suggest that complete ignorance and an inability to do even basic research is what will prevent that career goal.

Your facile premise that city folk have no truck with chemicals is almost beyond belief. Do you fill your car with a very toxic chemical that you then burn and produce other toxic chemicals which you then sit in traffic congestion and inhale for extended periods, like everyone else In that same city traffic? Do you clean your toilet? Do you tip all sorts of stuff on hour head to make your hair look nice without reading the label? Do you use ........fly spray..... In your house? Is your home protected against white ants? Do you fertilise your garden? Do you put salt on your food? Do you eat ..gag... MacDonalds, or any other fast food franchise food?

But it's the chemicals that frighten you away from Ag flying

If they were so bad, and so badly handled as some here claim, Ag pilots would have a hugely higher mortality rate than other career professionals.

Be frightened of being burnt alive, or smashed to pulp like some number of my friends have been. DDT was banned some years ago. It has the same mammalian LD50 toxicity as Sodium Chloride. You could sprinkle it on your food. There has never been a human death attributed to it, but it's banned.

Not to say there are not some nasties out there, but do you not think that pilots are operators have training, require formal certification in the characteristics, handling requirements and hazards associated with AGRICULTURAL chemicals? Answer is that Ag pilots and loaders are required to undertake training and hold certificates, for each state they work in and renew them annually. Also 4A's has accreditation scheme as well.

In any case I refused to use some particular chemicals even though they were legal at the time, just because I didn't want to take the risk of potential drift claims. I was PIC and what I said was ok with my boss. Not all bosses quite so understanding of course.

You prolly live under some huge transmission lines and have turbo charged WIFI in your home as well, but at least you are well clear of those scary wind generators.....oh Noooooooo.........Yr Right will be chiming in again soon with some more abject nonsense..

I need a holiday

HD

[Virtually There]

In any case I refused to use some particular chemicals even though they were legal at the time, just because I didn't want to take the risk of potential drift claims.
Thanks, Harley - that pretty much answers my question.

Now I'll answer some of yours . . .

Your facile premise that city folk have no truck with chemicals is almost beyond belief.Can't see where I wrote that, so can't answer that one. Sorry.

Do you fill your car with a very toxic chemical that you then burn and produce other toxic chemicals which you then sit in traffic congestion and inhale for extended periods, like everyone else In that same city traffic?Yes. I use an ethanol blend and do what I can to reduce emissions.

Do you clean your toilet?No, my wife does. She uses hydrogen peroxide and eucalyptus oil.

Do you tip all sorts of stuff on hour head to make your hair look nice without reading the label?Always read the labels, and always use brands that avoid caustics, SLS, phosphates, propyl, glyco, palm oil and are not tested on animals.

In fact, we used to make and sell our own brand of shampoo and bodywash through our company that specialised in natural and organic products.

Do you use ........fly spray..... In your house?Pyrethrum in a pump - not aerosols.

Is your home protected against white ants?Not that I'm aware of - won't let the stuff near my house. Doesn't mean some of the materials originally used weren't treated.

Do you fertilise your garden?No. Not unless you classify compost and mulch as fertiliser. Which I guess it is. But that's not what you meant, was it?

Do you put salt on your food?No. I cook with it, though.

Do you eat ..gag... MacDonalds, or any other fast food franchise food?Never.


Of course, I'm not a hypocrite and am not suggesting that all the fuel and avgas I've burned over the years hasn't been harmful. Nor that my very existence on this earth has been completely chemical-free and non-destructive to the environment.

But every little bit counts and I do try to avoid unnecessary exposure to known carcinogens if I can. No-one's perfect, and I don't claim to be.

Now, if you can't grasp the concept that "warranted or not", concern over something I'm not in a position to fully understand (are you a chemist, biochemist, MD or other medical specialist BTW? Because I'm not) has put me off a potential career path, then might I politely suggest that you're the one who has a problem with it and not me?

Because that's pretty much how your post came across. Hope you can grasp that bit. Cheers.


EDIT: OK, curiosity got the better of me . . .

LD50
DDT - 113mg/kg
NaCl - 3000mg/kg

I won't bore you with the long list of peer-reviewed medical evidence linking DDT to breast cancer, leukemia, premature births, miscarriages, diabetes, infertility, developmental neurotoxicity etc (even the WHO, which advocates DDT use in controlling malaria - though has been winding down that position since 2011 due to new evidence - acknowledges it accumulates in the environment and in humans, that it is toxic to children, and that its long-term health impacts are a "concern").

But I will leave you with this from the US NCBI: "Given the current evidence, an unqualified statement that DDT as used in IRS is safe is untenable." DDT and Malaria Prevention: Addressing the Paradox (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114806/)

So you go ahead and sprinkle that **** on your fish and chips while I stick to my "abject nonsense". I'll take my pinch of salt with everything you write. ;)

[Virtually There]

To everyone else, apologies for the rant. I asked what I thought was a genuine question. I was obviously naive to think I wouldn't be called to arms over it.

[Berealgetreal]

Aviation is a poor choice full stop for a career.

[currawong]

Troll alert :rolleyes:

[youngmic]

Well that was interesting...

Harley who is unquestionably a highly regarded stalwart of the Aerial Ag industry delivered what I thought a cutting but brilliantly poignant appraisal of the reality of modern chemical application as opposed to the supposedly chemical adverse and chemically free city brethren's (Virtually there) impression of chemical application.

However hats off to you Virtually There that was a brilliant response.

Should you ever feel the desire to cross to the other side I am sure there is a place for you in the Aerial Ag Industry...you have the necessary smarts and wit to be a safe campaigner.

[Berealgetreal]

Nothing to do with being a troll, just a different opinion. Probably been on pprune longer than you've been alive.

[currawong]

1/ Think a little bit harder as to where the Troll Alert was directed

2/ Time on Pprune is hardly the measure of the man

Good day.

[Virtually There]

youngmic, I'm in awe at the way these guys fly.

Not so much some of the attitude.

At least I've been put straight behind the scenes about what's going on. To those people, thanks for taking the time to explain.

[Aussie Bob]

Virtually there, I am with you mate. I considered a career in ag and even did a stint mixing and loader driving. The haphazard use of toxic chemicals put me off.

Drums containing toxic **** that don't pour properly and always have a spill down the outside were/are still common. Farmers who keep their chemicals on the edge of waterways are common. Piles of empty lidless drums with the above spills down the outside left in piles in paddocks are common. Need I go on.

BTW I worked for a very conscientious operator, it was the farmers who were the biggest worry.

Before HarleyD chips in about city folk, rest assured I come from a farming family. The chemicals in ag may be safe, but they are not for me. My choice. I prefer organic and better still, home grown.

[currawong]

Ag flying does not suit everybody.

And, not everybody suits Ag flying...

As I said on page 5 "Bob", if you have a legitimate concern, take it to the relevant authority.

I am sure they are just busting to hear from you.

[Aussie Bob]

I am sure they are just busting to hear from you.

I am sure they could't give a stuff. The big chemical companies rule most agricultural concerns.

[currawong]

I think you will find the regulator does give a "stuff".

Enough to fine me as a pilot $10,000 if I do not inform them within fourteen days that I have changed my address, for example.

So, get stuck into them.

You can be like Julian Assange, in gumboots.