Submarine School. Channel 5

[betty swallox]

Anyone else out there embarrassed beyond belief watching Submarine School on Channel 5?? Not the fact watching it on a lovely summers' night, and it's fairly geeky, rather the build up to the.....

"and now to the most formidable weapon, the Maritime Patrol Aircraft based at RAF Kinloss, the Canadian P-3 Orion".

How on earth have we got here?!


Not wanting snide comments about MR2 or MRA4, because let's face it, if you post I'll probably never meet you, and it's oh so easy to post provocative nonsense on here....I'm more keen on like minded individuals with a positive response, if indeed there is any!!!

[The Old Fat One]

Right with you there old boy.

Felt a little bit physically sick explaining to my missus..."thats what I used to do".

Not any more.

[ExAscoteer]

Absolutely!

I cringed with embarrassment when I saw the Aurora knowing that we have thrown away our capability.


Pathetic!

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I'm another sad geek! I can't believe he stayed at PD watching the Canucks; he'd never have got away with that if I was on patrol!

And I can't believe that Betty texted me to let me know that she was on PPRuNe before it had even finished.:=

Duncs:ok:

[Old-Duffer]

I'm more concerned about the ineptitude that some of these guys seem to be displaying. It's almost as though they haven't actually spent much of their careers as officers in the submarine service but that this course is the first chance they've had to handle a submarine and deal with the tactics involved.

There's one numpty who displays the leadership qualities of a 3 year old and the teamworking skills of a mole. Heaven help is that's the best the RN has to offer - and this from someone with a great regard for the boys and girls in dark blue.

O-D (In flog 'um hard and hang 'um high mood)

[MightyGem]

Have to agree with OD. Mind you, I've probably read Hunt for Red October too many times.

[tmobile]

Heaven help is that's the best the RN has to offer

I guess then you did really well on this course? Did you pass first time?

[Pontius Navigator]

At least they all passed the course.








It's a repeat

[betty swallox]

Thread drift, or what....(can't say that I don't disagree, mind!)

[airpolice]

All except the guy who "jumped ship" halfway through.


(D'you see what I did there?)

[tmobile]

No, not really airpolice. You see the Navy call their submarines "Boats" so it doesn't really work in the context you meant.

[AR1]

I think it's nice to see the contestants on the apprentice aren't that s**t after all..

[Willard Whyte]

Well tm,

That which is funny isn't always true, that which is true isn't always funny.

I prefer funny.

[Old-Duffer]

Tmobile,

No, Sir, I didn't pass the course - first time or any other time. Probably because I'm claustraphobic and have no desire to spend a large part of my life underwater.

HOWEVER, I do know a tad about leadership and teamwork and hence able to make reasonable judgements on the evidence offered.

Another point about the Perisher. Why was Lieutenant being put through the course (and ultimately leaving), when most - if not all - submarine captains are Commanders? It seemed to me that the guy should have been allowed to continue to gain experience before being subjected to a course which, if unsuccessful, finishes his career as a submariner.

Old Duffer

PS Last episode tonight. I shall then watch the DVD of Kelsey Kramer in "Down Periscope" - Lauren Holly as a very realistic female submariner (its the high heeled shoes and the tight jacket that gives the game away)

[Airbrake]

Airpolice, I appreciate your efforts. I thought the guy who pullled the plug last week was doing okay.

[The Heff]

Why was Lieutenant being put through the course (and ultimately leaving), when most - if not all - submarine captains are Commanders? It seemed to me that the guy should have been allowed to continue to gain experience before being subjected to a course which, if unsuccessful, finishes his career as a submariner.

It's surprising that officers who fail the perisher course are removed from underwater operations, because at the moment the Royal Navy is supposedly short of submariners. Banning an experienced officer from continuing to serve in boats because he's demonstrated that he's not yet ready to command one seems a bit wasteful to me.

A note about the Lieutenants. You'll notice that they both seem to change their epaulettes to those of Lieutenent to Lieutenant-Commander and back again! I suspect that they were waiting for promotion when the series started, and were promoted during the course. I realise that most submarines are commanded by a Commander, but their XO's are Lieutenant-Commanders. Success on the perisher course leads to an XO's position, not a command itself.

[ghostnav]

A few observations. One Lt was actually a Lt Cdr - how the hell did that mistake get through vetting - it was vetted given so many screens were blurred out.

Did anyone see the video through the periscope at the Canadian Aurora? I couldn't work out why it had US markings on it in one piece of film.

Finally, anyone who wet shaves and then washes his arm pits with the same water is welcome to be on that boat by himself!

[Jumping_Jack]

Rather than the sub stuff I was watching 3 of 3 of 'Our War'....anyone else catch it....really made the hair stand up on the back of my neck listening to the incoming rounds! Hats off to those guys doing the biz day in and day out. :D

[Jabba_TG12]

"Heaven help is that's the best the RN has to offer"

Funnily enough I went to an ordinary Coventry comprehensive school with a chap who went on to be a Perisher instructor, quite a senior one in the end... Initially, I found it surprising to see that he had done so well for himself, as he was quite a er... formidable character, shall we say, as a schoolboy...

... until he reverted to type by being party to an SSN being driven into the sea bed off Skye (by a Perisher stude who he and a fellow instructor were busy tearing a fresh one) doing about five million quids worth of damage and having the anchor dropped on his career as a result.

Was almost as if it was an incident waiting to happen for the best part of 20 years. Last seen sailing a desk in the Main Building, dont know where he is now....

"How On Earth have we got here?"

Betty.... do you really need to ask???:E

[Pontius Navigator]

. . . anyone who wet shaves and then washes his arm pits with the same water is welcome to be on that boat by himself!

Is it acceptable the other way around?

I think I saw a bon mot on pprune to start using the flannel at the top and work down :}

[Rocket2]

I recall seeing a similar documentry series on the BBC donkies years ago, probably while this lot were just a twinkle in their father's eyes, would be interesting to see if & how much the capabilities & required standards have changed.

[david parry]

Skipper joined up as a Scribes in 84:D Nice one Pictures!!!! and to reply to Heff ....If you fail Perishers you don't go back on Boats - reason being that your career can't go any further if you've failed.

[parabellum]

So, if you fail Perisher you can't go any further if you stay on 'boats', is it still a blot on your career, is your career affected if you now go to a surface vessel, presumably you still have to pass a surface vessel command course?

What is the major cause of failing Persisher, is it situational awareness, failing to keep a full picture of what is outside and where?

[alfred_the_great]

Some points:

1. the Lt was promoted to Lt Cdr half-way thru the course. Selection for Perisher will always result in being promoted (if not already), and if necessary will become A/Lt Cdr's until the system catches up. Guys who've joined as 18 year olds will have enough practical experience to take PERISHER at 28 or so.

2. The SM Service has a particular ethos, which is a little "in your face", and that is sustained by Teacher. If you don't think it works then you don't know what they've been upto since the introduction of the SM Service.

3. Failure a PERISHER can be as a result of several things, although from what I've been told it's either being too aggressive and loosing the safety bubble or being not aggressive enough and loosing the safety bubble. Although previously failure at PERISHER was an automatic bar from return to the SM Service, there is some serious thought going on to allow a second chance; why waste that experience because of a bad day? If they do get chopped, they typically join the Surface Fleet as PWOs and continue on that line. I've served with 2 Failed Perishers, both of whom have had more drives than the guys who passed on their course; one of whom was promoted well before his SM Contemporaries and is about to get his 1* when they are looking to get their 4th ring.

[betty swallox]

...still think the Mighty Hunter would have had 'em hours ago...!

[Mike7777777]

Difficult to understand why the RN would permit cameras in such a stressful situation. A good selection process and training would ensure a lower attrition rate, but then perhaps it wouldn't be "in your face".

Germanic ASDIC operator on a surface target muttered the perennial phrase involving needles and haystacks. Nothing changes (unless it was a bluff!)

[minigundiplomat]

Danish even - and may well object to the term 'germanic', however genetically correct.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I can't believe that I missed tonight's episode of Maritime Tactics! Betty's text came to late!

Duncs:ok:

[Submarine Jeff]

Gentlemen,

Please allow me to have a few words.

These days we only have 4 V boats / 6 T Boats and one A boat with more to come.

In the days of the Diesel boats.... the perk of passing Perisher WAS Command of your own diesel boat. These days however we only have Nuclear Powered submarines and all of these have a CO and XO who have both passed Perisher:

Commanding Officer: Who is a Commander (Royal Navy) who has already completed an appointment as XO
Executive Officer: Who is a Lieutenant Commander (Royal Navy) - invariably relatively new of course (Perisher).

And as to the silver/blanked out ranks epaulets etc was a means to simulate Special Forces (ie Ships Company pretending to be Special Forces) for the purposes of practicing the techniques BEFORE the real thing.

I have read many forum accounts these past 7 days - some none to complimentary about what they perceive to be the 'Cream of the Royal Navy'. I cannot attempt to portray in an email what it was really like to be on Perisher... a great deal of the pressure was self imposed but I can say that I am immensely proud to have had the opportunity to do the course and of course pass it. I do not pretend that the hard work is done - indeed the the hard work lies ahead as I form part of the team that regenerates a Submarine out of REFIT/Maintenance period. What I would say however, is that anyone with even an minute element of knowledge of the Submarine service WILL view the TV program with critical eyes... but dont forget that it is aimed at the everyday man who is somewhat blind to what we as Submariners do for a living... In those terms alone I think the Production Team have done a relatively good job...

The production team have the sequence slightly wrong.

We went to sea 20 Sep 10.
I started course as a Lieutenant but was promoted 1 Oct 10. This would have happened regardless of the outcome of Perisher. I was selected for promotion as early as February 10.

Part of the 'fear' / 'esteem' of Perisher is that it is a one shot / make or break course... It is ruthless and is designed to be so... is it correct? Well you will have your own opinions but all those who undertake Perisher know the rules, the rewards and the perils. Statistically we have endured a 50% pass (or fail if your cup is half empty) rate in recent years (10 years). This has rarely delivered the numbers required... so have things or standards dropped? I would suggest not.

I would invite anyone who thinks that Perisher is easy or that any one of us were 'duffers' to revisit their comments. As for comparing Perisher students to 'The Apprentice' I quite frankly find insulting.

The exposure of Perisher to the Cameras I think with hindsight was a good move. Every effort was made from a very early stage to integrate the Camera / Production teams into submarine routines and indeed forge a good relationship with the students. Filming commences 6 weeks prior to going to sea with the aim of us getting used to them... Did we feel under more pressure because of the Cameras? Whilst I cannot speak for all of us - but it is not something we discussed at length or were overly concerned about.

I am exceptionally proud to call myself a Submariner, a member of an exclusive club that pans international borders and is second to none in 'esprit de corps'.

Dolphin 32!

Submarine Jeff

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Dolphin 65!

[Sun Who]

Dolphin 64d.

[Old-Duffer]

Thank you Submarine Jeff for your sober amd measured comments about the Perisher.

Of course, in 4 hours of heavily edited TV we only see a snapshot of the truth but I would return to the Lists with the following comments.

First, if it's 50% pass; that's not good 'economics' and if you then expell the failures from the submarine service, one is losing that experience undersea, although possibly gaining a great deal if the person becomes a PWO in an anti-sub vessel.

Second, I took a professional dislike to the four ringer, whose late intervention (inteferring with 'Teacher's' work I suspect) was unhelpful. This after the broadcast comments of Teacher about when he would intervene. The rear admiral seemed rather more measured. It would be interesting to know if the presence of the 4* admiral was as some sort of final assessment board.

Third, I thought the real star of the last two episodes was the officer of the watch (Lt Dennis Fox). He appeared to be calm and mature and is (possibly) an ex-ranker and clearly the master of his game.

Finally, I stand by my earlier post. My perception of the first pair of programmes was of people who seemed - at times - completely at a loss as to how to lead and encourage their team. After all these are experienced officers who are at the end of their course which has led to these final trials (in more sense than one).

An interesting series and thanks again SJ for putting us straight.

Old Duffer

[Blacksheep]

anyone who wet shaves and then washes his arm pits with the same water is welcome to be on that boat by himself! Hell! A REAL submariner would clean their teeth in it as well. :hmm:

As someone pointed out, the 50% of people who fail "Perisher" have very good skills for anti-submarine work afterwards. My father's CO on the North Atlantic was a Perisher failure who became very adept at anti-submarine work, with three U-boats to his credit (with a bit of help from his crew and the other ships in his group of course).

[Wander00]

As a mere Crab, and long retired at that, within the limitations of what the RN wanted from the programme and the producers wanted, it was a pretty good series. Congratulations to those who passed "Perisher", it would have been a challenging enough course as it was, with the added pressure of the TV crews, it must have been really stressful. But well done all, and a grudging "congratulations" to the programme makers, who managed to avoid making service people look like anything between numpties and Attilla the Hun.

[Old-Duffer]

Perhaps the ruthless nature of the Perisher can be summed up in one instance.

In 1942, Lt Peter Roberts and PO Tom Gould of HM Submarine Thrasher was each awarded the VC for disposing of a bomb which had lodged beneath the gratings on their submarine casing. This was danagerous of itself but if the sub had been forced to submerge in a hurry they would have been trapped.

Peter Roberts was sent on his Perisher and his VC was announced during the course. The following day he failed the course and was taken off submarines for good. No concessions, no second chances, no extra coaching - endex!

Roberts was also awarded a DSC and in later life served in the RNXS in (I think) Plymouth working the support vessels used by the navy in and around harbours etc. He died in about 1979 when only early '60s.

Old Duffer

[dead_pan]

I took a professional dislike to the four ringer


Was that the chap with the beard? I didn't think to count his rings.

S'funny there was absolutely no mention of HMS Astute's little mishap off Skye around the time this programme was being made..

[airpolice]

It was entertainment, not news at ten.

Don't lose sight of that.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

As ever, the RN have a PR team that come up with a plan that shows Joe Public that their sailors are only human - who come good in the end. Well done the Andrew!

Duncs:ok:

Still think a Nimrod would have had them under an awful lot more pressure!

[Mike7777777]

I prefer to believe that (potential) commanders of submarines are calm and collected, albeit curt and distant. Any sign of panic or stress is a weakness, although that wouldn't be good television. But then I'm still surprised to see clean shaven submariners who didn't stink of diesel.

With modern weapons, were not firing solutions achieved but not exploited?

I didn't know Denmark possessed ASW vessels, so that's something learnt.

[Dryce]

With modern weapons, were not firing solutions achieved but not exploited?


The production team and their editors have presumably been constrained both by their requirements to make it dramatic and uncomplicated together with the RN's requirements to not reveal operational details.

Very little of what actually goes on was shown. A casual viewer would get the impression that these encounters take a few minutes and that operating at PD in calm inshore waters is the norm. And that putting a weapon in the water involves pushing a button and that's it done and dusted.

By the standards of recent documentary series on the RN I thought it was a huge improvement.

[Submarine Jeff]

I agree - if you are interested in Military tactics or want to learn something about how to fire a torpedo then perhaps the TV programme doesn't do the job. I mean I could easily put together a 4x1 hour documentary on how to conduct an attack on a Surface Ship - but believe me I suspect I would bore or go way above the head of many of the general public. For the layman - I think the producers did a reasonable job. Just to set the record straight - there were very few compartments or indeed tactics (if any) that were off limits for the TV cameras!

[airborne_artist]

First, if it's 50% pass; that's not good 'economics' and if you then expell the failures from the submarine service, one is losing that experience undersea, although possibly gaining a great deal if the person becomes a PWO in an anti-sub vessel.

If all who pass perisher are highly likely to get a command and so guaranteed promotion to Commander then 50% seems about right. How many surface fleet Lt Cdrs (X) achieve the same? I reckon the chop rate may be worse, but there's no visible chop process for skimmers.

[Red Line Entry]

I think the programme makers did a good job in highlighting the challenge and excitement of being a submarine captain. But to me, the upsides of having such a fantastic job could never balance the downsides of living for months away from family, sunlight, fresh air etc.

Banter aside, I have a huge amount of respect for submariners, it's truely a job I could never do.

[FODPlod]

I think the programme makers did a good job in highlighting the challenge and excitement of being a submarine captain. But to me, the upsides of having such a fantastic job could never balance the downsides of living for months away from family, sunlight, fresh air etc.

Banter aside, I have a huge amount of respect for submariners, it's truely a job I could never do. Couldn't agree more and I was inured to nine month deployments in surface ships. HMS Tireless has just returned from a ten month deployment east of Suez, not quite all of which was spent at sea submerged (link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-13366850)), and HMS Turbulent is on another (link (http://www.navynews.co.uk/news/1257-turbulent-times-in-the-middle-east.aspx)).

[alfred_the_great]

a_a: the real question to ask is the ratio of Junior Officers to the bottom of the SM Plot to those passing Perisher....

Skimmer life is different, and I would suggest that we have ways and means of getting the people we want. There was a suggestion of introducing a "Perisher" on CODC, but then the man who was talking about this had an interesting time in GRANBY ("Whose birds? Your birds Sir".....) and had a minor credibility problem!

[Mal Drop]

anyone who wet shaves and then washes his arm pits with the same water is welcome to be on that boat by himself!Hell! A REAL submariner would clean their teeth in it as well. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gifA Herc mate would make a nice cuppa out of it and offer it to the senior passenger as a refreshing brew made to an old family recipe.

[airborne_artist]

a_a: the real question to ask is the ratio of Junior Officers to the bottom of the SM Plot to those passing Perisher....

Skimmer life is different, and I would suggest that we have ways and means of getting the people we want. There was a suggestion of introducing a "Perisher" on CODC, but then the man who was talking about this had an interesting time in GRANBY ("Whose birds? Your birds Sir".....) and had a minor credibility problem!

Post Corporate there were some significant questions asked about the surface fleet's selection techniques - let's just say that some who were highly articulate and very sociable had been favoured, but didn't have what it took when the range became two-way.

[alfred_the_great]

a_a: the CQ process now is a joke, but it's weeded out the more social officer....

[Rallysailor]

As someone with both 'Fins' and 'Wings' (abeit civvy wings) I thought the programme was quite interesting and may improve recruiting figures alittle. I know they improved greatly after the HMS Brilliant programme.