Runway 23 at LHR

[David H]

Could someone answer whether this runway is still in use ? I haven't seen it in use since at least 1991, yet it still seems to be kept as a runway with signage and pavement quality. Yet the overrun area now seems to be a parking lot for BA's Boeing 747s and 777s !

Does anyone think it is a bad move to decommission it ? Could it not be used simultaneously with 27L and 27R to improve overall throughput of landing traffic, at least for smaller aircraft vulnerable to wake turbulence from bigger aircraft ? Many US airports operate with intersecting landing runways all day and every day.

[Nev]

It is used sometimes for cross wind landings and I believe is also subject to a SRA talkdown.

[BN2A]

It's used when the average X-wind component on 27L/R exceeds 25 knots. And yes, its a SRA!!
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[Warped Factor]

As mentioned used when the average x-wind on the main runways exceeds 25kts. Radar to visual or surveillance radar approaches only.

Configuration would be 27R for departures and 27L/23 for arrivals. Pilots indicating which one they want on first contact with approach.

It is much used as a taxi-way when not in use as a runway, it is effectively the outer taxiway to the east of the central area after the original one was built over a few years ago.

It's a real pain to use from an ATC point of view. Horrendous taxi routes and lots of runway crossings on the ground. Strange vectoring, SRA's, usually nasty weather and strong winds can make it fun on the approach side.

I doubt if it could ever be used in any way that would increase the movement rates significantly. You might in theory get the odd extra aircraft onto the ground, but the taxi problems thereafter would ensure chaos on the airfield :)

WF.

[EDDNR]

Heathrow notam also says 23 T/O for turboprops only.

Rod

[MAVERICK 1]

The overun area which has all of BA'S equipment over all has to be moved along with anything over 757 size on the DELTA stands adjacent to 23.

It is a real headache for the conrollers and pilots when you do land on it the conditions are attrocious.

It is no fun for anybody, but is nessecary from time to time!!!

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That's right, I am dangerous!!!

[David H]

I now realize the topic has been moved from the Rumours section.

Anyway, thank you for the responses. But what I really want to know is whether 23 is actually operational on a regular basis. If a turboprop or small jet comes in one morning and finds a very strong wind out of, say, the south, can he request 23 ? I mean, actually, I doubt if this can be acceded to given the hitherto mentioned T4 overspill parking, which would take half a day to clear. So, when is 23 used, if it is used ?

As a regular user of the airport, I see it ALWAYS used as a taxi-way. As I said at first, I have personally not known it in use since 1991. I can seethe objections to multiple landing runways given the taxi-ing complications and ground movement congestion, but surely some inventive solution could be found, especially if 27R was the departure runway. Landings on 23 could exit right and proceed to T2 or T1, say, roughly in the same direction as take-off traffic proceeding to the 27R threshold.

I am just interested in seeing whether throughput can be increased. We have been told there is a shortage of runway capacity in the southeast, yet we have a perfectly good runway sitting on our proverbial doorstep.

[MAVERICK 1]

They do use the runway the last time I used it was about 9 months ago.

The problem is the overspill area plus the SRA means that it is only used in extreme circumstances. I think the wind has to (and dont quote the exact figures) 30-35kts across 27.

I don't know what the average A/C limits are on turboprops are but for average jet it is between 30-35kts so that is where they get the figure from and because Turboprops are such a small user at LHR it is a small price to pay for the chaos that will be caused for going onto 23.

The times when I have been on 23 before the delays on average were 1 hour plus.

Putting it into use as a cross runway would not help even if they put an ILS
on it, the sad fact is is that LHR's R/W's are operating at capacity already in cannot accept much more traffic.

They dont need T5, they need to build another RW first and lets face it there is not much room for another RW!!!

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That's right, I am dangerous!!!

[SFly]

Do they use it going the other way? It has an "x" on Flight Simulator. Also, there's a weird little east-west bit of asphalt at the north side of the airport called 1/19 or something and is supposed to be a runway. . .what's all that about?

[ATCO Two]

Much of what has gone before is valid. Runway 23 has a TORA of 1183m and a TODA of 1243m, and a LDA of 1966m. Runway 05 is not available. Runway 23 is only promulgated when the mean cross wind component on the main runways exceeds 25kts. It may also be activated in an emergency if one of the main runways was blocked for any length of time. Three hours notice is normally required to promulgate the runway, to enable the relevant parking stands to be cleared of aircraft. Therefore when 23 is in use there is a severe shortage of stands available. Also a major crossing block for Terminal 4 traffic is not available. Traffic bound for 27R departure from the South side has to cross two active runways en route to the 27R RHA. (27L and 23). Towing aircraft from the maintenance areas are subjected to long delays and every vehicle crossing from the central area to the maintenance areas and vice versa will require a crossing clearance of 23. Traffic using 23 has to be appropriately spaced against traffic landing on 27L to avoid the two aircraft meeting at the intersection at Blk 85; this negates any possible capacity enhancement. SRAs and a mixture of 27L and 23 landers add to the workload of TC. Heavy traffic departing from 27R must not be cleared for take off with any lighter aircraft on short final for 23. Departure flows would have to be restricted due to the non availability of 23 for taxiing for 27R departure. Oh and we don't play the LAHSO game like they do in the States. 23 is too short for that anyway. Light aircraft and turboprops are not encouraged at Heathrow. We do desperately need T5 (like yesterday), as a major constraint at Heathrow is a lack of stands. There is still a little runway capacity left at certain times of the day. Runway 23 was used on a couple of occasions last year. Have I convinced you yet David H?
SFly - I am not sure which "weird little east-west bit of asphalt" you mean. 1/19 has no significance to me. Block 19 is the threshold of 27R. Block 1 was probably part of London Airport North about 50 years ago!

[SFly]

Now, in Flight Simulator 2000 which is pretty good about these things, there is EGLL. It has the 9 runways and rwy 23. Then there is this 1/19 character. You can't "go to" it from the "go to airport/runway" menu so it must not be classified as a runway. But on the map view it is there and it's stats as a runway are there.

It is situated shortly after the beginning and to the north of rwy 9L, has two connectors to it, yet is completely unmarked. It is very odd. It appears to be the northernmost paved surface in the airport. The info says it is 4700 ft long and is made of asphalt, and though it is called 1/19, it is east-west. It also has some sort of navaid at the east end of it (a fix called HRW I believe).

Also FS has an "x" at the beginning of 5 but shows 23 as useable.

Forgive me for being unprecise but I am an outsider to LHR and am just going with what FS is giving me.

SFly

[This message has been edited by SFly (edited 28 February 2001).]

[ATCO Two]

SFly,

Let me assure you that there is no runway to the North of 09L, whatever FS 2000 may indicate. All there is in the location you describe is a staff car park!!! HRW is real though - it is the Heathrow NDB. As I stated above, an "X" on the threshold of a runway means that it is unusable. 05 is not available as a runway but 23 is. There are no runway markings for 05. It does not exist. Take my word for this, I have worked at Heathrow for over 23 years.

[SFly]

I wasn't arguing with you . . . calm down! I was just informing everybody as to what FS has . . . it seemed interesting and against popular knowledge so I included it in the thread . . . I believe you, geez! :)
SFly