Another school bust [Archive]

PD210

19th Jun 2011, 18:45

You believe correct. And to be honest, it can't have come sooner. The owner is possibly the most unpopular man in Scottish aviation and you will be hard pressed to find someone with a good word to say about him.
His track record can be seen on Companies House. His outfit has been called Cumbernauld Flight Centre, Cumbernauld Flying Centre, Cumbernauld Flying School and Cumbernauld Flight School. It stinks of someone running away from the financial problems of an organisation.

One has to feel for the students who are owed thousands. It's not nice.

So there are now two schools at Cumbernauld: Border Air Training and Leading Edge. Both will no doubt be assisting students yet to complete their flight training.

dont overfil

19th Jun 2011, 19:08

Has Cumbernauld ever been able to support three schools?
I suppose we will see history repeating itself shortly for the umpteenth time.
D.O.

CraigJL

19th Jun 2011, 19:19

I'm ex-student of the above organisation (pick your name), and switched to another provider recently (what a fortunate decision!), but as logbook entries were not signed by the instructor at Cumbernauld, a verification stamp is now required - will it still be possible to get this stamp, or will I have to pursue other means?

XL319

19th Jun 2011, 19:37

If that's his track record then he should be disqualified from being a director ASAP. It could prevent many more students ending up in the same position :=

P.S. I remember flying over Cumbernauld (Dundee to Carlisle via Prestwick) and asked for any conflicting traffic information etc....I never got a response, so I quickly changed to Glasgow radar! and thought miserable ba***rd ...could this guy be the same person!!!

CraigJL

19th Jun 2011, 19:42

^^

No, Ted never manned the radio as far as I'm aware - doubt he was qualified to.

Cumbernauld serves many other organisations so the radio operators aren't tied to a particular training provider AFAIK.

flystrathclyde

19th Jun 2011, 20:14

Groundhog Day?

The school in question was closed over the weekend but I am not aware of any 'official' position.

We have had several students in talking to us and we have advised them that the position will probably be clarified early in the week.

We have been through this before at Cumbernauld and Inverness.... so we have good experience in dealing with pilots looking to complete their training or progress with their flying.

My personal advise (only my viewpoint) would be for anyone affected to wait for a couple of days for clarification; the airport owner also has experience of this and will be keen to protect the Cumbernauld customers. If a student decides to make a move away from the school in question (it may turn out to be their only choice) then act quickly to request their records be transferred to another school. REMEMBER, they can always move to another school at any point so 'jumping' is not neccessarily a 'questionable' choice.

I run Leading Edge and therefore have our interest a heart! But I do think the advise above in reasonable.

Allan

Itellbiglies

19th Jun 2011, 23:05

XL319; The tower is not always manned at EGPG (A/G radio)
If you're in that situation again just make a blind call then
go back to Glasgow radar.

Allan; I think you should try and grab a couple of Katanas
Students like them (alot) and they're quite economical.

Now it's my understanding that student records, to some
extent actually belong to the student and they are just
kept at the flight training organisation for convenience,
But don't quote me, cause itellbiglies.

Happy flying folks

Dan the weegie

19th Jun 2011, 23:46

It's always sad to see any school go bust in spite of how they got there.

That said to all the students that are concerned, don't be, the normal course is that the CAA take charge of the records via an examiner or other competent person and you then email the CAA to get the records transferred to whatever school or club you end up in.

It's fairly straightforward and can take a wee while but there's no reason why you cannot continue to train from the point you left off before they get your records on the basis of both your log book and your actual skill level. I'm 100% sure that this will be the case at both BAT and LE knowing people that work at both places and they are good folk that are interested in helping people get their ticket.

A and C

20th Jun 2011, 06:40

While I agree that it unfortunate that this club has gone bust I think it unlikely that the directors will be banned from holding directorships.

One only has to look at the antics of the directors of XL airways who within weeks of going bust were replacing it with Viking airlines, within 18 months that went bust, they are now operating at TorAir.

Lots of people have lost a lot of money each time these people bust a company and they just keep on doing it so it is unlikely the directors of a small company that owes a few £s will be banned when companies house takes no acton when people go bust owing £M's.

IO540

20th Jun 2011, 07:19

I agree with A&C; for a Director to get disqualified he has to do a major fraud and he has to do it to somebody who is big enough and ugly enough and rich enough and principled enough to want to push it through.

In my 33 years in business I have seen a few things but never saw a Director banned. The standard way to do a ripoff and get away with it is to make sure that a) you don't owe money to HMRC (who will otherwise make you personally bankrupt) and b) you don't owe more than a few k to any trade creditor.

I believe that if a flying school goes bust and you paid with a credit card, you can get your money back from the CC company. However their staff is trained to thwart any such claimback (a widespread activity) so this may take some effort.

Genghis the Engineer

20th Jun 2011, 10:13

So long as the hours can be verified, I'd not worry too much about training records anyhow - any new school is going to make their own mind up about you, and ultimately you get a licence on the basis of enough flying hours, and a satisfactory skill test.

G

cirrusdancer

20th Jun 2011, 15:15

Don't forget that training records also have the results of any written exams. If you've worked your way through 4 or 5 of those be a dreadful pain to have to re-sit them.

IO540

20th Jun 2011, 15:32

I had to re-sit one exam which the original school lost.

cathy123

4th Jul 2011, 16:54

My daughter is one of the most unfortunate youngsters to loose money from this . she started at Cumbernauld flying centre at 14. her father died unexpectedly last year and left her a small sum of money. yes !!!! she has paid in advance and is distraught. I remember TED VEITCH vividly boasting about his recent aquisition of a 3d tv and numerous other gadgets around about the time of my daughters last payment sum of £2000.Now weeks later the place is bust. I visited Maria Dorrian myself today who claims TED has spent all the money !!!. She is the responsible person as the company owner and sole director and no excuses are acceptable to a tearful 15 yr old whos dreams are shattered.I cannot afford to pay her fees.
Mr Veitch.... I demand you sell the 3d tv and refund my daughter her £2000. Mrs Dorrian as a christian I expect you to make sure this refund is expedited. You have Mairis address. Catherine Lewis

maxred

4th Jul 2011, 17:37

The tv will be next to worthless. So cal said it all, never pay upfront for ANYTHING.

Ted is actually ok, some people bitched about him on this forum, but then people bitch a lot about others.:ugh:

I doubt there will be any pennies, however, whilst it is hard, remain on cordial terms, and if they start up again, perhaps a route may be available to get something back. You never know.

cathy123

4th Jul 2011, 17:48

The money was paid by cheque from the trustees holding her money. As considered an educational expense( she wants to be a commercial pilot ) they agreed to pay it. My comments about TED are those expressed by Maria.Maria may also be a victim but she IS the owner of the company and no doubt had profited to some extent. I had faith in this company and the people on the front line.It is difficult to be sympathetic when the director of the company is blaming her manager TED for his extravagant lifestyle. He is apparently on holiday at the moment. Well timed !!!!

maxred

4th Jul 2011, 17:51

It is much more complicated, the manager/Director realtionship I mean.:\

Maria is certainly not a victim.

cathy123

4th Jul 2011, 18:02

Well that is something I did consider but their relationship on a personal level is none of my business. She did look pathetic on the doorstep.I know she courts celebrity but I doubtany of this will be benefical to her social standing

cathy123

4th Jul 2011, 18:22

She is already around half way through her PPL and the discount was attractive. I blame myself of course. I have no way of reimbursing her which is awful.

I did buy her 5 lessons to judge her commitment for Xmas last year . She is convinced this is the career for her and waS pricing commercial trainingwhen she comes of age .So why should I discourage her

oh and she is now almost 16 and the £2000 was to allow her to concentrate on flying after her standard grades while on hols from school. She will be busy when school recommences with her highers

Coger

4th Jul 2011, 19:59

Cathy123, comiserations about your daughter, though you say she is determined, so I am sure will find a way to continue, in time. Has she looked at British Women Pilots' Association British Women Pilots' Association - Careers and Licences (http://www.bwpa.co.uk/pgecarlc.htm) ? They offer scholarships and bursaries, and maybe give her circumstances would be quite sympathetic.

I foolishly also paid upfront, and am about halfway through training (first solo just before they shut up shop) but did have the wit to pay with credit card. Unfortunately can't get a refund from CC co. until some closure on situation with CFC, and that could take ages. Even airfield people don't know what is happening yet. Meanwhile do I jump ship e.g. to Leading Edge or someone at Prestwick, which means change of type, probably Cessna, or hang on in case this resolves itself and I can get value from what they owe me. I think probably the former.

I was assured by airfield guy that our flying records are safe.

Dan the weegie

4th Jul 2011, 20:24

While you won't like this £2000 is a fairly small portion of what you're committing to in commercial training on the basis of a gamble that she might get a job at the end, so at least you have lost relatively little so that when you do have to fork out more, you'll be paying by credit card. You could have lost £60k!

I'm sure she's a smart girl and will do well but this is one of those things that happens, not just in flying but in all sorts of ways, my wife lost her wedding dress a few weeks before we got married because a place went bust and while
Everything in the end turned out okay, it's not like the dress was doing the actual getting married....
People do say "don't pay for anything up front" it doesn't always wash in many lines of work, sometimes you're left with no choice and you have to pay up front, when you do use a credit card even if it costs you slightly more.

Flying schools go bust frequently and they don't go a little bust so normally the bank is the one that appoints the administrator and the administrator (normally a subsidiary of the bank) is the one that gets paid first, after that there's rarely any money left but you should definitely apply to the administrator for recognition as a creditor, you may get something.

As for Maria, she is the owner, the buck stops right at her feet and while Ted ran the business Maria is the one that has the legal responsibility to ensure that it is run properly. If you can prove that she didn't then the limited liability becomes significantly less limited.

jxc

4th Jul 2011, 20:40

maybe the trustees should have been a bit more careful with her money is there any recourse from them ?. going on to do commercial training if she goes the modular she will save lots more than £2000.
Best of luck to her

cathy123

4th Jul 2011, 20:50

Hi guys ... thank you so much for your input. Yes this is a small sum in the grand scheme of things and she does have enough funds remaining to complete a ppl and a commercial training package. As you can imagine she sees this money as a gift from her father who died and is dreadfully upset and I feel responsible . As for Maria ...I did tell her I was uninterested in her situation as I suspected she was having a relationship with Ted and that SHE was indeed responsible. I can only wait and see. Yes I will ensure that Mairi pays as she goes along for now . Neither of us owns a credit card .A lesson learned but I am pursuing it through legal channels and other means .

cathy123

4th Jul 2011, 22:11

Hi yes we are aware of all of the above including exams ,medical classes etc . This she had plans to do up to age 17 to suit around her school schedule, she has not taken any of this lightly and knows fully the path and expense required. I am just grateful she has no plans to buy crap or pee her funds down the loo .; As for not getting a job ... she wants to be an aviator be that passenger , or freight etc etc . She is just very upset about her dad and for reasons explained before .

Say again s l o w l y

4th Jul 2011, 22:13

Oh dear. That's the first I've heard about this. Sorry to hear about your daughter's woes Cathy. That's the horrid side of this business at times.

I can't say I'm particularly surprised by any of this unfortunately.

airpolice

4th Jul 2011, 22:13

I can see it now, The Company Director, The Actress and The Bishop.

North-east panto queen Elaine C Smith is to play global singing sensation Susan Boyle in a new stage musical about her inspirational life story.

Elaine C Smith is to play Maria Dorrian's pal Susan Boyle in the new production of SuBo. It seems that Maria has befriended subo and stuck up for her after an "attack" in the Express re Subo and Padre Pio. (Those not of the Catholic persuasion of Imaginary Friends may skip this bit) Maybe Cardinal O'Brien could be persuaded to have a word in Maria's ear.

I understand from my Mum, who knows about such things, that a Mass can be said for virtually any case that needs divine intervention. So.... at the risk of good money after bad........ maybe someone could find which Chapel the sainted Maria is to be found at on a Sunday and slip the incumbent £20 * to say a mass for the swift and safe return of the Student Notes and the balance of the £2,000.

Obviously in order for the prayers of the assembled congregation to be effective, they would need to have some details of the problem.

The journalist, Sunday Express reporter Ben Borland, who was tarnished by Mrs. Dorrian's response to a bit of standard rehashing of news from the Catholic Obvserver, may well be interested enough to pursue this line of newsworthy stuff in a quiet week.

With a public profile such as Mrs. Dorrian tries to maintain, MARIA Dorrian, Scottish delegate for the sanctuary of Saint Pio I'd have thought it ill advised to dismiss such a heart tugging story as this young girl who dreamed a dream, her deceased Dad and a litany (see what I did there?) of failed business enterprises.

This could grow arms and legs!

* Cash only according to Mum, something to do with DWP/HMRC guidlelines.

cathy123

4th Jul 2011, 22:25

Hi , Yes this was my referral to courting celebrity.

The media has been informed and perhaps the aforementioned christian will reimburse Mairi for her financial loss which has without question opened the wounds caused by her bereavement

airpolice

4th Jul 2011, 23:37

She cannot complete the solo phase of her flight training (at age 16) till she has that medical completed.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. If she were studying for an NPPL then a medical declaration by her GP would suffice for solo flight.

I understand the advice of don't pay for all that training until you know there is no medical obstruction, but I'd suggest that if you really want to fly, spend the money on flying not doctors, until you NEED to spend it on Doctors.

IO540

5th Jul 2011, 06:35

My view would be for anyone wanting to be a professional pilot to get themselves a CAA Class 1 medical ASAP.

Once you have that in the bag, you have the Demonstrated Ability concession for the rest of your life.

And your health is only going to go downhill :)

In fact I would recommend a private pilot to do the same, because a Class 1 locks in certain handy privileges (connected with the IR), and renewing a Class 1 should not cost much more than renewing a Class 2.

Really sad about losing money via a bent school, but this happens all the time. I've been flying only 11 years, but have seen several schools go bust at my airfield, in all cases with a total loss of student deposits and in at least one case (that I know of) following a major "inside job" done by the "CFI".

cathy123

5th Jul 2011, 11:37

she needs her medical yes before she can go solo and that was one of the "to do " things for his summer. I hope that the people who are involved dig deep into their personal finances and refund Mairi her money. Time will tell. The press hounds are very hungry and already have some interesting information.

Dan the weegie

5th Jul 2011, 13:31

Cathy, avoid disappointment and expect nothing, in all likelyhood that's what she'll get.

Get a credit card :)

cathy123

5th Jul 2011, 14:30

Yes, I have learned from this mistake and it wont happen again to her.If I can make those involved uncomfortable by publicising their actions to the commuities they value , then I will.

airpolice

5th Jul 2011, 15:36

In, Twist, Out.

cathy123

5th Jul 2011, 17:30

I may sound like a woman scorned... the thing is they are not officially in administration so I will try and get my daughters money back before this happens. The people involved can at the moment squirrel money away without recourse if no attempts are made.

Say again s l o w l y

5th Jul 2011, 18:50

Go for it. If they are officially still trading, then you are perfectly entitled to get your money back.

If they say no, then go to the small claims court. It costs you nothing and will force a reaction.

Good luck and I hope the threat of it is enough to make them do the right thing.

maxred

5th Jul 2011, 18:53

There is a maximum of 750.00 at small claims court. Also the school was a ltd. company I believe

cathy123

5th Jul 2011, 19:21

I will try EVERYTHING in my power.Ms Dorrian is a prominent person in the Catholic church and a " dear friend " of the famous Susan Boyle . I hope she will consider the embarrasment more costly than £2000 owed to my daughter.

maxred

5th Jul 2011, 19:29

I know you are, understandably, upset. You have every right to be:rolleyes:

However, mounting anger and vengeance, which I am now reading into this, does not generally get you very far.

A sit down, a think about things, and a clear plan on how to achieve your goals, would in my view, be the better action plan.

Just my thought for the day:uhoh:

Say again s l o w l y

5th Jul 2011, 19:32

Maxred it's £5000 maximum in the small claims court.

See here Small Claims Court | The Ultimate Free Guide | Smarta (http://www.smarta.com/advice/legal/business-law/the-small-claims-court-for-businesses)

maxred

5th Jul 2011, 19:38

Not so sure in Scotland. Will need to check again, maybe they put it up recently.

Apologies if I am wrong.

The Old Fat One

5th Jul 2011, 19:40

It used to be £750 in Scotland...I now believe it to be £3000, but it's a different system anyway up here. The jocks like to do their legal thingys their own way.

xrayalpha

5th Jul 2011, 20:25

Get mad, get even... or just get on with life?

Never pay up front. Lesson learned.

If you do, pay something with a credit card.

The doors have shut, presumably because there is no money. Perhaps not even enough to go into liquidation. That is what happened with AerosportUK who used to import the C42s we use - and took a £500 credit note of mine with them.

If there was money, they would surely have stayed open all through the peak summer season.

Therefore: pursuing any court action, small claims or otherwise, is a waste of time, effort, energy and the small sum of money involved.

Pursuing a director personally through shame and embarassment in front of personal contacts is a risky option.

You could, in one view, be seen by people who are more the other person's pals than yours, as carrying out a vendetta and thus be the "bad" person! Unfair, possibly. But reality, yes.

At worst, you could find yourself accused of harassment - and possible defamation. Company directors do have to abide by certain regulations, and she may have had no choice but to cease trading (possibly even for some reason that neither you, I or anyone else, knows - say some litigation over a personal accident for instance, liability for which the insurance didin't cover, so would be insolvent if had to pay compensation, etc etc).

All this is why we simply don't take any money - other than for gift vouchers - up front.

But I go back to the start.

Never pay up front. If you do, pay something with a CC.

And don't get mad. Get even.

And the best way of getting even is sometimes putting it all behind you and getting on with life - don't waste precious time and energy on the negatives.

ps. If you don't think I know what I am talking about:

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL (http://preview.tinyurl.com/3hmhm7a)

Our neighbour still lives over the fence, and caused £600,000 of damage (total so far). Reckon even after the insurers have finished, I will be 30k out of pocket. But we just got on with life.

IO540

5th Jul 2011, 20:57

Was this school a Limited Company?

If not, go after the proprietor(s) personally.

cathy123

5th Jul 2011, 21:32

it wont cost me anything as I have legal insurance. I cannot walk away as this will allow the people concerned to just walk away and start again as highlighted before. Pursuing this at a personal level is the only way to make them think twice about mismanaging a company. Whether they pay financially or in the face of public scrutiny can only be a positive step

max_continuous

5th Jul 2011, 23:49

Cathy,

I'm sorry to hear of your situation, and I won't rehash the ground which has already been covered.

The limit for a small claims action in Scotland is £3000. If you have not already done so (and I suspect you will have) then I would recommend you speak to a solicitor regarding this matter as soon as possible. Most solicitors will normally have an initial meeting with you about any matter without charge, but not all so do check.

I hope that you get this resolved and that your daughter enjoys the remainder of her training and flying in the years beyond.

maxred

6th Jul 2011, 16:11

The going rate for a solicitor can be 195.00 an hour. In the current climate, they smell fees, and, not all, are in the game of fee building.

I would suggest that there is not a snowballs chance of getting your money back here.

In my previous post I suggested you remained cordial, and thought a plan. Sorry but I would not go near a solicitor.:\

The Old Fat One

6th Jul 2011, 21:39

Pursuing this at a personal level is the only way to make them think twice about mismanaging a company.

There are all sorts of reasons companies go bust...quite often it is because someone else has gone bust first owing them lots of money.

The laws in the UK (and most other industrial countries) are designed as much as anything to promote and protect commerce...hence the concept of limited liability.

Anybody can always make a personal appeal to the ex-owners to pay up out of their remaining assets, sometimes, but very rarely, they may do so.

I'm afraid chasing them with a solicitor is likely to be a case of throwing good money after bad, even if its an insurance company's money (not sure I'm convinced that you can be covered for a process that is likely to be futile??????????)

When the last Scottish flying school went bust, up north, an overseas student lost 9 times the amount in question here. Which is why I took umbrage some time back when a poster commented that all flying schools are the same.

At the risk of getting another b***king...all flying schools are not the same and if you think they are go check companies house for the financial records of all the flying schools in Scotland.

Better still, pay £10 and you can get a complete financial breakdown of all the companies involved. At least one flying school in Scotland has a five star credit rating and is ratified to deliver public sector contracts. As ANY businessman/woman knows, to deliver a public sector contract you have to meet a host of financial stress tests.

PS

I have absolutely no vested interest in any flying school whatsoever. I just get the hump when the public are mislead, because the outcome always ends in tears.

max_continuous

7th Jul 2011, 03:12

Yes the going rate for a solicitor can be £195 per hour and frankly that's cheap for some!

Even in the relative backwater of Glasgow £350 per hour is not unheard of, but in the world of those of us who aren't trading commercial property and trying to pretend the world doesn't hate us there exists a breed of solicitor called the "rest of the world" who are willing to try to help, and I know a few.

But hey, nobody ever went to see a solictor because they are just too bloody happy, did they...?

maxred

7th Jul 2011, 09:06

Max- give me their details because the ones I come across attempt to charge me for looking at them:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I often thought that if I went around, charging by the half minute, every time I called someone, gave a bit of advice, spoke to them on passing, then delivered the invoice, then I would be flying the Trump plane.

Seriously though it is s total bummer when people pay for something, and the co goes bust leaving the distress and misery of a shambles. And out of pocket.

Problem is in todays climate it is happening daily, a lot of it not necessarily the companys fault, nor the directors, just circumstance. The directors then have to get on with it - remember they have lost their business and daily work also.

CFS actually apperaed to run a nice operation, and I happen to know some of the detail about where it may have started to go down hill. Their biggest issue was taking money up front, when they would have known that turbulance lay ahead. That is not on, unless in a position to refund if it went belly up. No, if in trouble, limit your liability.

airpolice

7th Jul 2011, 09:39

Max, it might be easier to have some sympathy if this was the first time that "it had happened" to them.

They "seemed" to be running a good show since they had benefitted from doing it before, and may well try to do so again.

They will need to find another airfield for their next venture.

maxred

7th Jul 2011, 10:16

Yep I understand, and it would be untenable to operate, again, from CBN.

Perhaps attempting to run three flying schools, two helicopter training units, from one small GA airfield was a step too far. One, and maybe others, had to go.

If I had been running it, and I am not, I would have got an exclusivity right - one training school only. You might have stood half a chance.

The cake could not have been divided between all of them.

dont overfil

7th Jul 2011, 10:40

Our club was promised exclusivity at this field some years ago.

Within a week another started and shortly after a third.

Our club and one other failed but our only debt was to the airfield.

maxred

7th Jul 2011, 10:46

I am sorry to hear of your issues with it also, and yeah, well, we all know the scenarios and the real reasons why a lot of this has happened.

The innocents, of course, are always the real losers in these situations, and perhaps do not understand that there is always a story behind the smoke:\

Frankly we all knew, when, not if, with a number of these business's.

Does not make it any easier if you are on the losing side.

The Old Fat One

8th Jul 2011, 07:22

Frankly we all knew, when, not if, with a number of these business's.

Maxred...spot on.

And yet if you check the array of websites you will see..

They are best/biggest/longest operating/whatever.

And then when a punter does tries to do a little bit of homework by posting on pprune, up comes a reply along the lines of..."oh yeh, trained here 5 years ago...they are great", or yeh..."they are all the same, don't pay upfront"

Here's a message for the punter...

Caveat Emptor

To find out the biggest, go to the flying school and count their aircraft and instructors (it'll be on the ops board).

To find out the best, go to the flying school and speak to the students.

To find out the most financially viable... find out the company registration details (it'll be on their stationery) and pay £10 for a full credit check.

If they appear in anyway uncomfortable/huffish/whatever at your enquries do not go there.

Use pprune and any other websites as a little wee bit of the jigsaw...not the whole story.

686

9th Jul 2011, 16:12

I'm sorry to hear that some have lost money as a result of the closure of CFS (or whatever it was/is called). Once again people are learning that aviation is a difficult business, and not one that it is easy to make money in.

Has anyone looked at the prop on the one remaining Katana left at cumbernauld? As a pilot i wouldnt go anywhere near that machine!

While i am sad that some people have lost considerable sums of cash, i think it should be noted that CBN will be all the better without Ted and his crappy business.

On a last note, i have no sympathy for Maria, who new full well what she was getting into. And if she didnt, then she should have! Or was it all just to keep her son in work, who instructed there?:ugh:

cathy123

10th Jul 2011, 06:37

I have calmed down a bit since my previous rants. We are moving on to another school but not in Cumbernauld.Thinking about Prestwick after a recommendation. My daughter will not pay upfront . Has anyone any commen6s about facilities at Prestwick?,

'India-Mike

10th Jul 2011, 08:38

Yes I'll comment about Prestwick but I'll declare an interest as an instructor at one of the clubs there.

Two clubs; Prestwick Flight Centre; and Prestwick Flying Club. The former is effectively a business with all the advantages that brings. For example it is staffed 9-5 seven days a week; it has a large and varied fleet; good examiner availability; it's also where the local R/T practical test is held. Slightly more expensive than the club for landings and membership.

The latter is a private members' club. No full-time staff therefore contact can be difficult although the guys do try very hard to follow-up email and web enquiries. Slightly cheaper than the Flight Centre for landings and membership but more expensive on the flying rate (especially if you chose the Chipmunk!) Instructors all part-time but usually something can be arranged as they run a prime/backup pairing arrangment - unlikely that you'll ever fly with more than two instructors.

What may be a consideration for you and your daughter is the environment - at the Club there is only one female member I can think of, but another young woman does fly from time-to-time. There are more women at the Flight Centre and the ladies on the desk are very motherly. I'm not saying that the chaps at the club are a bunch of grumpy mysoginist middle-aged pederasts, far from it, but I can understand that the flying environment can be intimidating enough. Depends on the character of your daughter.

Web sites for both, if you Google. Good luck

maxred

10th Jul 2011, 09:33

Prestwick would be a good choice, both clubs get an excellent rep.I have trained at the Flight Centre and found the whole experience pleasurable.

There is also Glasgow Flying Club, based at Glasgow, and Edinburgh Flying club,obviously based at Edinburgh.:rolleyes:

One comment, due to all the constraints placed on an individual whilst training, weather being the main one, it can be wise to choose a school where you are relatively close to the airfield. This can save wasted travel time and arriving at the field,to find the lesson cancelled because the weather has alterred/closed in.

Yes a call to the airfield to ask prior to leaving is prudent, however, sometimes this does not work. A small point, but from experience it can save a lot of wasted trips.

Say again s l o w l y

10th Jul 2011, 11:33

I'm glad that she's going to continue, but why not with either of the other schools at CBN? Just because CFS has gone bust doesn't mean the other schools are about the fall over.

I've been associated with Leading Edge for a long time (I was CFI there a few years ago) and it's in no danger of shutting up shop.
Border (downstairs at CBN) has some very good instructors too and I'd be surprised if there were any financial problems there.

4redsyourdead

10th Jul 2011, 14:27

I would like to recommend leading edge as a former ppl student they offered me excellent instructors and availability, well maintainained aircraft with reasonable rates! They also encouraged unlike other schools not to pay up front but after each lesson. Although I cannot comment on there finances all I can say is leading edge seems so be growing stronger and stronger with the aircraft online booking pages never been busier!

I have also done training at pretwick flight centre for my night rating and again experienced high quality training, well maintained aircraft and the advantages of flying from a controlled airfireld would be a plus point for a wannabe commercial pilot.

There is also the new branch of BAT at Cumbernauld which has undoubtably one of the nicest and my personal opinion one of the best cfi's you will find, so that could also be worth a look!

Having personally or known people who trained at these I'd say you can't go wrong

Leading edge
Prestwick Flight Centre
Prestwick flying Club

cathy123

11th Jul 2011, 09:21

Hi , Many thanks for all comments.I will continue to pursue a refund by legal route as I can pay via legal insurance policy so wont cost me anything.
My daughter is very sociable and polite girl and gets on with everyone so she will fit in at any school she chooses and with any instructor .Im confident of that.
We currently live in Glasgow , Bearsden and we are inclined to try Prestwick despite being very close to Abbotsinch.
Mr Veitch did a very good job of rubbishing all the other schools at Cumbernauld and whilst it makes sense to ignore this I just cant face going anywhere near that airfield.
My apologies for sounding like a mad woman with a vendetta but I was very upset for her. Her dream is to be a pilot and had her dad not died I think it would have remained a dream as I certainly couldnt afford to pay her fees.I am very proud of her and what she hopes to achieve with her life . She has had a plan since she was 14. She is now approaching 16 and had not been swayed despite recent events.

Say again s l o w l y

11th Jul 2011, 20:45

I could tell you some tales about CFS that would turn your hair white. Let me put it this way, I've been an FI for a fairly long time and I feel very comfortable in recommending either of the two remaining schools at CBN.

The quality of the instructors is not up for question at either place. Mind you I certainly have no issue with any of the instructing that I've seen from either of the Prestwick schools for that matter.

There is only one place where I had any concerns about the teaching and the way things were done and that place has just gone bust. Whilst many of the FI's were good, the problem did not lie with them but with a certain person who ran the place, the very same one who spent his time rubbishing the other schools. He offered me a job once. I decided not to take it after meeting him and taking a look at the setup.

I would never recommend a place I didn't think was any good. I've seen enough rubbish schools to know what I'm looking at.

I spent 3 years as CFI at Leading Edge and I can assure you that the teaching is top notch there. Graham who's CFI at Border used to work with me at LE and he's an excellent instructor too, as is Paul. CBN is lucky to have 2 very good schools.

If you want to take Ted Veitch's word over mine, then go ahead, but I know where I'd send people!

cathy123

11th Jul 2011, 21:36

I respect your comments. I just cant face Cumbernauld airfield and certainly would not value Mr V s opinion for obvious reasons.

'India-Mike

11th Jul 2011, 21:47

Cathy that's a shame although understandable. The problem for you I'd suggest isn't the aerodrome it was the school. I don't know the BAT folks but Leading Edge is friendly and busy and the field really is your local one. You'll find the Kingston Bridge a real bind!

Say again s l o w l y

11th Jul 2011, 21:50

Fair enough. We came across the same sort of thing after Flight Academy went bust a few years ago, unfortunately this sort of thing isn't that uncommon and I've seen it too many times unfortunately.

Good luck with your daughter's training.

cathy123

11th Jul 2011, 22:04

Yes Cumbernauld is closer.Im discussing it with her and have told her of all the encouragement on this site . Many thanks

mad_jock

12th Jul 2011, 10:13

Don't discount the Prestwick flying club.

There instructor base is quite unique in the UK.

You have university boffins through to very senior airline examinors. You might have issues with fitting in lessons etc but for building the foundations of a life time of flying your really going to struggle to beat it. The PPL's I have flown with from there have not been to far off Commercial standard and have a very solid grasp of the basics.

I wouldn't worry about being the only young girl about either, I wouldn't have thought being a dippy chick will do her any favours. But if she is keen, polite and not discounting fun I wouldn't have thought she would have problems.

cathy123

14th Jul 2011, 12:27

Hi We have returned from holiday refreshed and Mairi is ready to fly.She has read all the posts and has had some fun doing so .Our next concern is retreiving her training records.

Ill let you all know how she gets on.

Many thanks again

Cathy xx

Sir Herbert Gussett

15th Jul 2011, 01:19

Inform the CAA Stirling Office of the new selected school and your daughter's training records should be transferred to the CFI there.

cathy123

15th Jul 2011, 08:33

Hi , her record is in safe hands and we are selecting a new school for her.
Many thanks everyone for listening.

Say again s l o w l y

15th Jul 2011, 17:31

As already said, the training records "thing" shouldn't be an issue. The CFI of the new school should be able to just ask for them and get them.

If there are any issues, then the CFI of the new school will kick up merry hell. I've done it more times than I care to mention unfortunately and I've never had an issue to date.

LightAir

16th Jul 2011, 14:13

I read the posts on the plight of this young lady, who had her funds stolen (strong - perhaps but true) I had the same happen to me years ago when UK schools opened (and v. quickly closed) in France, where I lived and worked.

It is heartening that she is moving on and has selected a flying centre with more of an airport feel than a smaller aerodrome style set-up.

However, there was some suggestion of her life being made difficult due to changing weather and wasted travel.

I have a small tip on this aspect as I have the same dilemma due to flying from a sizeable airport whilst living an hour and a half's drive away.

I overcame this by using the UK Met Office: this has an excellent aviation website and for no fee - simply a registration - METAR's and TAF's can be checked as early as 7am up to within minutes of departure and interpreting them will do no harm either and could settle whether flying is possible or not very early on in the day!

Now I know if I shall be flying before the FBO staff arrive at their office.

Accuracy of decoding could then be confirmed, with a quick call to the CFI of the flight organisation to verify that understanding, before leaving.

Not much help with the money I am afraid but practically, using the Met Office site could avoid additional wasted cost.

LA

cathy123

17th Jul 2011, 19:23

Lawyer duly instructed.

Thank you again for all advice and support. I dont really belong here but it was useful to vent my anger and frustration . xxxxxxxxxxxx :\

Whirlygig

17th Jul 2011, 19:27

Lawyer duly instructed.Be aware that you would likely be throwing good many after bad.

Cheers

Whirls

cathy123

17th Jul 2011, 19:47

As before I have legal insurance which pays all costs.

maxred

18th Jul 2011, 10:00

Mmmmm..........

Initial symapthy has now evaporated. I'm out:confused:

Whirlygig

18th Jul 2011, 11:00

As before I have legal insurance which pays all costsOne of two things could happen here. Either the insurance underwriter will advise that there's no legal case and refuse to support the case or, a solicitor will argue that there is, rack up some fees for themselves, then decide there's no case but will have profited from yours (and ultimately, everyone's) insurance premiums.

If a company goes bust, there is no legal case. The Insolvency Act governs the procedures and any decent solicitor will tell you that.

Cheers

Whirls

cathy123

18th Jul 2011, 16:48

The company is not officially in administration. I pay premiums for a service so why not use it . It may or may not work . I can only try for the sake of my daughter. It is she who deserves the understanding / sympathy not me .She is blameless.

cathy123

18th Jul 2011, 19:21

The qualifying age to commence PPL is 14.
The intention was to train gradually to achieve PPL at 17.
We paid twice for blocks of hours ......... no problems or any suspicion till now.We obviously had faith in the school.She has 25 hours ubder her belt.
The trustee was fine in releasing the money for 10 hours and were impressed with her plans for her future career.She wanted to spend all summer hols focusing on flying.
What on earth is odd about any of that ???.

mrmum

18th Jul 2011, 20:00

SoCal
Can't comment on the legalities of whose money it actually was, or who's entitled to take any legal action, or even whether the whole thing seems odd:hmm:or not.

However, it's not that unusual to get kids with rich parents and/or trust funds starting to fly at 14, doing the dual parts of the PPL course between 14 and 16, then getting in the solo hours and skill test, ready for the CAA to issue their licence at 17. I must have seen this at least a dozen times and I'm at a small place in a rural county, you would think it may be more common in more affluent areas. I've known two students over the last couple of years whose trust funds would pay out for anything even vaguely aviation related. If Cathy's daughter has an educational trust fund, then I don't see why it wouldn't pay for a PPL if she said she was going for the modular route to a CPL.

cathy123

18th Jul 2011, 20:20

mrmum.

Thank you so much.

Wish her/ us better luck everyone.

S205-18F

18th Jul 2011, 21:17

I have been reading this thread with interest and Cathy I find your daughters resolve to continue, after the blow she has suffered, commendable! I almost gave up 7 years ago after talking to a certain Mr. Veitch! I got a lecture (10 minute monologue) on what I couldn't do in aviation almost to the point of doubting whether I really wanted to fly!!! I then contacted Tayside Aviation who resided at Scone at the time and chose to learn with them! I wish her good luck and many happy hours flying.
John.

FRANKHA

19th Jul 2011, 16:29

Cathy,
I was a member of C.F.C. but did not lose any money although I lost money when Flight Academy went bust so you have my sympathy and good luck with the legal fight (but don't get your hopes up). I have joined Leading Edge and although I have my licence (just) I find a big difference in the types of plane i.e. Cessna opposed to a Katana but your daughter will get used to them (she will have to as no other schools use Katana's).
What really annoys me is the hypocracy at C.F.S. as they used to be very virulent in their attacks on F.A.S. and the way they left a lot of people out of pocket and now they have done the same. Anyway good luck to your daughter and as I live roughly in the same area as yourself think about the travelling when picking a new school.
p.s. Does anyone know how Sam is getting on? as he is another one who has lost out in all of this.

cathy123

20th Jul 2011, 10:11

Hi . We have made no firm decision about which school to choose yet as my daughter is down in her confidence at the moment. We plan to visit Cumbernauld together and to have a look at prestwick also.
I did make enquiries about Sam when I was at Cumbenaukd recently but no news to offer. I know Sebastian is working there doing sight seeing tours etc.The majority of people on this forum have been so great many thanks again .

T18

20th Jul 2011, 20:09

Hi Cathy123

I have some poor memories of TV also, if your daughter would like a flight out of Perth in a tail dragger to keep her interest going please send a pm. I enjoy sharing my passion for flight so no payment required.

Kind regards
T18

scorpio1211

26th Jul 2011, 16:36

I have read all of the threads going back to the start re CFS/C.

My son wanted to be a pilot from the age of 5, completed his enrolment with the RAF March 06 to become a pilot, passed away suddenly May 06 4 weeks before his 16th birthday.

I joined CFS to honour his memory & completed my PPL last year.

I got to know all of the staff @ CFS, and for one, with the exception of the previously mentioned flight controller, would be more than happy to meet up with Seb & Sam again, they were great fun to be with and very professional.

I aslo flew with Leading Edge, again, really decent people & good instructors (not sure if Paul is still there)

it is a shame that people have been financially inconvenienced by this. However, lets not take our eyes off what is really important, life & health, no amount of money in this world can you buy you health.

Best wishes & hope the young lady achieves her goal

cathy123

29th Jul 2011, 19:15

My sincere sympathies for your loss.I have also lost a child myself . Yes it is only money and life and health IS more important. Mairi is having a trial lesson at Prestwick on Sunday. Many thanks for your kind words

Deeday

31st Jul 2011, 14:11

This makes for an interesting reading (despite the big pinch of salt needed for this kind of press):

Susan Boyle's friend goes through cash hell after bitter split from air school lover - The Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/07/30/susan-boyle-s-friend-goes-through-cash-hell-after-bitter-split-from-air-school-lover-86908-23307346/)

The users' comments, from the horse's mouth, are worth reading too, with reference to posters on this thread as well.

maxred

1st Aug 2011, 10:27

Was that really necessary AP??

It was the usual journalistic bollox, clearly tainted from 'one side of the story', on a weekend where there was evidently not much news.

I wonder if poor Cathy had something to do with it:uhoh::\

The Old Fat One

1st Aug 2011, 12:14

Was that really necessary AP??

Yes

Not because of the colourfull details of their "relationship", but because these are people in the aviation business who have gone bust owing people money. They are not victims...the customers and suppliers who have lost money are the victims.

You go into business, you play by the rules. One of the rules is you can walk away from a bust business without going bust yourself. Another is the business community is going to make sure your reputation gets known.

And rightly so.

PS

It was the usual journalistic bollox,

No great fan of the newspapers myself...but most of this appears to be straight from the horses mouth rather than hearsay and invention

PPS

Maria, of Torrance, near Glasgow, admits the company are not in liquidation or administration but says they have "ceased trading".

Talking of b*****s, is she making it up as she goes along??!! If this is true and I was owed money I'd be whacking a small claims in this PM.

IO540

1st Aug 2011, 13:11

Clearly the Scots are having way too much fun.

Completely inappropriate to be involved in GA and having that much fun.

All this stuff about lovers and ex-lovers and spending cash on women... I think I will move to Benbecula. Maybe not... no avgas there, damn.

maxred

1st Aug 2011, 13:45

IO - but not on a Sunday remember. Old Fat One - there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye - as always.

Including how the saintly one got involved in the first place, anyway, none of my business, not involved, and I am away to get three internet birds for myself - if he can do it, anyone can:mad:

cathy123

1st Aug 2011, 13:46

Cathy had nothing to do with it other than giving details of Mairi s misfortune. Aparently there are nine other pupils owed money.The reporter got all of the information about the relationship and details of Ms Boyle and the Church from Mrs Dorrian and Mr Veitch . I knew nothing of this until the reporter told me himself . What has been printed HAS come from the horses mouths only.

maxred

1st Aug 2011, 16:08

Well, they are evidently all dafter than they look:bored:

cathy123

1st Aug 2011, 16:32

I can only assume that whilst trying to defend their failures in business and blaming each other they forgot they were spouting to reporters.Shocking it was front page news.

IanPZ

1st Aug 2011, 17:41

What amazes me are all the comments after the story, almost entirely from involved people, not least the owner.

I am not at all legally trained, but surely making your opinions public like that and making claims about the other parties creates a rather rocky basis for any future legal recourse, and even more so opens the way for libel (or is it slander) cases.

I was always under the impression that in such circumstances, you kept quiet and let your lawyer do all the talking. Certainly makes it all a bit hard to ever take to court and have an "unbiased" jury.

Anyone with lawyerly knowledge out there? What is the story about such things?

mad_jock

1st Aug 2011, 18:52

its scots law as well so might be a wee bit different.

There is no way Glasgie women are going to keep there mouths shut if they don't like each other. It just doesn't happen.

cathy123

1st Aug 2011, 19:07

This is contract law and does not require the opinions of a jury.The contract was to teach , a fee was paid. The contract was dishonoured.

cathy123

1st Aug 2011, 19:42

Mairi has a new school and feels comfortable with her instructor. She and I are movinjg forward and we just have to wait and see if she gets any of her funds returned. This is all we can do .

mad_jock

1st Aug 2011, 21:53

You contract is witha LTD compnay not the share holders.

This has happened so many times and alot of punters really do believe that they will get there money back.

But the tax man gets his first.

Then the reciever gets there's

Then the banks get there's

And then the employees get there's.

Then the punters get whats left if anything.

You will be lucky to get 2p in the pound of whats owed to you if previous schools going tits up are anything to go by.

cathy123

1st Aug 2011, 22:04

So do i just sit back and do nothing ?. Im not that kind of person . They are neither in receivership nor under administration.The company still has assest . I may get nothing but Im sure as hell going to try. I am fully aware what a Ltd company means . I may be at the end of the list but at least Im on the list .

Whirlygig

1st Aug 2011, 22:07

But the tax man gets his first.That'll clear out the coffers if there is anything left, with TV living rent free and the company not paying national insurance on it.

IF any company liquidators believe that the company directors have acted fraudulently, as opposed to megligently, they can apply to the courts to go after the directors personally. However, the shareholders are not involved unless they happen to be the same people.

Cheers

Whirls

Dr John Watson

2nd Aug 2011, 09:24

This is a"walk away from" mess. Since it was a LTd company the directors have the protection of limited liability and are only liable for the share capital that they invested in the company. To pursue them as private individuals will simply not achieve anything. To openly bad mouth them no matter how much they deserve it could lead to an accusation of harrassment!!

As regards adminstration/liquidation forget it - it simply will not happen. An insolvency practictioner will be looking for a minimum of £10,000 even to look at the company. The company will probably be left in limbo and get dissolved by companys house in due course. Any director could of course pay £10 to companys house and ask for the dissolution of the company. The notice of such would be printed in (I Think) the Edinburgh Evening news!!. Any creditor can object to this but I would suspect that if HMRC are owed monies then they would hold up the dissolution for at least 18 months.

If as reported the company owned/rented 2 aircraft then I am suprised that the Airport owner has not used the Air Navigation act to impound the aircraft awaiting payment of his debts. This happened with Comed at Blackpool some years back. It took a long time for private owners who had allowed Comed to hire their aircraft out a long time to recover their property. Anyone who may have done this through the CFS could be in for a nasty shock as they could equally be liable for the debts. I do not know how the Comed situation panned out eventually.

If anyone is thinking of making a soap out of this then I suggest that they include the going ons of Merlin ( bust Cumbernauld) and the transfer of a "club from Edinburgh" when they re located to CBN.

Must be the micro climate around that area

cathy123

2nd Aug 2011, 16:10

As before we are fully aware of the limited liability status of the director.
The planes are elsewhere and not at Cumbernauld so Im led to believe.
The planes are unemcumbered .....ie no loans and are owned outright by the company.(from the horses mouth )

We plod on until told it is a waste of time by the people in the know , the solicitors.(paid for by insurance ).

mad_jock

3rd Aug 2011, 10:14

Aye but they have droppped out of a known maintence enviroment over night they have halved in value which will have been way over estimated anyway. So proberly worth now a quarter of what they have been saying. Its very rare for aircraft assets to be linked in with the school so it might not be as simple as you think.

Well as long as your not shelling out any more of your own cash carry on but please don't hang any hopes on getting an outcome that your going to be happy with. If you do get what your hoping for you will be in a minority of 1 in scotland for students recovering thier money with a school going bust.

xrayalpha

3rd Aug 2011, 18:29

I remember how long an ex-Flight Academy Scotland Katana sat at Perth.

And how little it was for sale for a few years later, even with a new engine!

The two Katanas at TV's were both registered to MD, not CFC. So I presume she "leased" them to her school. She should have. So no asset there.

ps. "My" aircraft are owned by a partnership which owns the airfield, for tax reasons - something to do with capital allowances - and not owned by the flying school which uses and maintains them, which is also a limited company. So there is nothing unusual in this sort of arrangement.

Most flying schools have very few assets, and seek the protection of limited liability in case all goes wrong.

cathy123

3rd Aug 2011, 20:27

I am realistic and dont have high expectations as one Katana visibly in Prestwick in a sorry state .Hey ho ... can only try . Thats what solicitors are for .

Glasgow_Flyer

6th Aug 2011, 10:04

Hi Cathy

I'm from Kirkintilloch, but now living in Melbourne - I log onto PPrune periodically and have a look at what's going on with General Aviation back home and picked up on your posts about Cumbernauld - I'm gutted to read it all.

I did a PPL at Cumbernauld Flying School - I finished it back in 2003. These were the days when the place was run by Ted and his wife Christine. I have to admit, I also paid up front, really cause that included all of the books, exams etc too.

Long story, but I had a relatively good experience during my PPL - and I stuck with the school for about a year or so after my PPL to hire the planes. For various reasons, I then moved down to Prestwick and joined Prestwick Flying Club - my flying experience just quite litterally took off from then - I LOVED it!!

The instructors are real pilots that do instructing for fun. My skills got better and my overall enjoyment got better - much more of a social side to it.

I'm not sure where you are based - Prestwick was obviously a bit more of a joint that Cumbernauld - but well WELL worth it.

I'll also tell you one wee story - once at Prestwick I soon bought a share in an aircraft that was kept down there. One sunny afternoon, I decided to take it for a flight up to Inverness. I called my girlfriend to see if she fancied coming along, which she did - and arranged to pick her up at Cumbernauld. I thought great - I'll pop in, get some lunch and say hello to Ted. When I got there, I found out that Ted had actually thrown her out of the cafe, telling her she couldn't wait in there for me - this was dispite me having paid him probably about 10,000GBP over the years. I couldn't believe it - but it sums it all up for me!

It will all work out - please let me know if you need any introductions at Prestwick. Please keep her at it!!

Good luck!

Edit - meant to send this as a PM - oh well!

cathy123

6th Aug 2011, 15:33

Hi Glasgowflyer

Prestwick was recommended to her by a Thomsons captain during our recent holiday in Egypt.She was lucky to chat to him on the flight deck. Having read many positive things on this forum including yours Mairi has chosen Prestwick as her new school.Its only 35 min drive from home here in Bearsden.
She had her first flight in a cessna 150 last weekend and enjoyed it . Her instructor Willie (forget his surname ) was lovely and made her feel very much at ease.I have a feeling he will take her under his wing.
I can see her enthusiasm returning especially since she got her exam results which were brilliant despite the last year being very sad and difficult for her and her sister.
It really is great to hear from you guys. I appreciate it and tell Mairi all about it . She is keen to chat to experienced pilotsabout their experiences in training via email if anyone is interested .

'India-Mike

6th Aug 2011, 15:42

You must distinguish between Prestwick Flying Club and Prestwick Flight Centre. If the Thomson's captain is the one I'm thinking of, he'll have mentioned the Club as he's a member there. You've gone to the Flight Centre (the Club don't have 150s). Doesn't matter, your daughter will be well-cared for.

I'm surprised anyone let alone a little schoolgirl can fit into a 150 with Willie (no offence Willie):E

cathy123

6th Aug 2011, 16:56

shes not so little at 5 feet 10 ;).

'India-Mike

6th Aug 2011, 17:40

Gawd. Willie's going to have to fill the tanks with negative fuel I guess:E

cathy123

6th Aug 2011, 19:35

shes a pretty girl and slim (but a bit of a tom boy ) and has a great sense of humour. Im sure they will get on fine .

'India-Mike

6th Aug 2011, 19:46

Well she'll soon learn all about mass & balance and performance which is no bad thing. Good luck!

Say again s l o w l y

7th Aug 2011, 00:33

A C150 and two people who aren't anorexic dwarves... That'll be "interesting"!

Glad she's found somewhere to continue her training. All the best for the future.

S205-18F

7th Aug 2011, 08:45

Hi SAS remember you and me bringing the 150 back from Ireland!:eek:

Say again s l o w l y

7th Aug 2011, 09:35

I'd tried to block that one out of my mind!

ATC: Report when you reach 5000ft.
Us: Okey Dokey.

10 mins later

ATC: Errr, are you there yet?
Us: Not even close...

S205-18F

7th Aug 2011, 21:47

We sure didnt make 5000' Think we crossed the sea at 3500' ahwell we made it and had a laugh! If I am not mistaken they had the cheek to put long range tanks on it too.:E:eek:

Floppy Link

8th Aug 2011, 08:53

You used to love crossing the sea...SH45?

Bloody_Gooses

8th Aug 2011, 11:46

I was a student at CFC so I thought I would comment on the fiasco.
When I started training I also paid up front as the savings were worth it. However, around the end of last year I thought something was going wrong so I stopped.

Although I am not owed money the closure came at a bad time: all I have remaining to do is one exam and the skills test. So now I have to finish training on an unfamiliar aircraft which will cost me more money.

The katanas (G-BXOF and GH) were starting to look scruffy and usually there was only one. I have been told by a CFI that the propeller on GH is not fit for flight. During my cross-country I checked the oil at Dundee then Prestwick and found it to be very low. These aircraft are only 15 years old and as training aircraft I would expect them to be maintained to very high standards.

When Maria 'phoned me to tell me the school was ceasing trading she said that she would have to sell the two aircraft she owns (OF and GH). I don't think they will be worth much. (GH is the only one with a valid CofA). There are two other katanas (G-BXJV and JW) registered to the Enniskillen Flight Centre which were previously owned by Maria. I believe these are in bits down in Prestwick. The Enniskillen Flight Centre was run from Cumbernauld.

I checked the Companies House web site and there are a remarkable number of similarly named businesses along with CFC. If I were cynical, I would believe this fact speaks volumes...

I got on well with Maria and Ted, the newspaper article does neither of them any favours but at least I think I know what caused his knees to wear out. Sam and Sebastian are good instructors. It is Sam I have the most sympathy for. He just had a daughter this year so I hope things get better for him.

To close, I would advise anyone interested in learning to fly to never pay up front. But if they do make sure the money is legally safe, don't take someone's word. Check up on the company: find out who owns it and gauge whether they can be trusted.

Train on a common type, katanas were a mistake. Twitchy handing, different to the other aircraft I have tried and extremely unpleasant in cross-winds.

dublinpilot

8th Aug 2011, 12:23