Flying Pay

[paul m]

Just a quickie. What is the purpose of flying pay? Just doing some research into it and cant find any reference to it appart from QRs.
Paul
Thanking you in adavance

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

To wind up blunties :p

[lj101]

Specialist Pay The common principles which apply to all items of Specialist Pay are: payment based on recruitment and retention requirements; specified entitled posts; responsive to the internal or external market; and common Reserve Bands including reduced rates for those who apply to PVR or are medically downgraded. In addition, depending on the nature of the specialist employment, payments would be made on a continuous career basis, a non-continuous basis or on completion of a task.

From the armed forces pay review blah -

[Kreuger flap]

It is to make those REMFs who sit in their air conditioned portakabins behind the wire know their place in the pecking order. It just lets the rest of the world who the important ones are in the RAF. Of course I don't get flying pay because I am on a much better pay scale called PAS. Its purpose is to annoy Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldrs.

[ShortFatOne]

It also annoys CS Wg Cdrs and gets Gp Capts a bit hot under the collar!! What a great invention was PAS!!!

Just a shame I probably won't see out my time.:E

[The Old Fat One]

The purpose of flying pay is start a thread on pprune every 12 months or so to enable sad losers (such as me) to rant about the purpose of flying pay.

Actually it is a recruitment and retention incentive and therefore no longer required. Which is OK because I'm not getting it anymore.:E:E

.... or flying pay either :{:{

[VinRouge]

I imagine its to keep the 5 million+ worth of training behind the wire and to put up with the sh*t the blunties throw at us.

A better question would be:

Why does a JT get paid the same as an adminer despite having far more responsibility?

[Avionker]

Because the bloody adminers set the pay rates.....

Wasn't like that in my time though, TG1 and TG 2 pay rates were the highest of all the ground trades, the way they should be.

[Two's in]

Flying pay prevents the recipient from developing an unsightly depression in the area of the rear trouser pocket; thus maintaining a level of sartorial elegance commensurate with his or her dazzling quick wit and repartee.

[newt]

Well I remember being in the bar one Friday night when a blunty asked the same question. A very experienced Flt Lt who had recently attended the funeral of one of his comrades killed in a flying accident, summed it up this way!

"If you Blunty's want flying pay then once a year we will all come down to SHQ, line all the officers up against the wall and randomly shoot one of them! Then they can all start claiming flying pay (danger money) or whatever they want to call it!!!"

Do not recall the question arising again on a Friday night:ok:

[Mick Strigg]

It's there to keep Mrs Strigg happy!

[TurbineTooHot]

Actually it is a recruitment and retention incentive and therefore no longer required.

Recruitment, not at the mo. Retention, certainly is required. Those eligible for flying pay are not, on the whole, in line for redundancy. We therefore required them to be retained.

It is NOT danger money. I'm not going to get into a contest over whose job is the most dangerous. Irrelevant in this debate.

No other branch, trade or profession in the forces has as much time and money invested in individuals for training and qualification purposes.

Current trainee redundancies aside (not in receipt of SP) we do not want to lose the huge investment in highly transferable skills to the civilian Market.
Hence flying pay for retention.

I'd love to say of course everyone deserves the same because we are all equally valuable but that's a little socialist isn't it, and in objective fiscal terms utterly false.

Now stop whinging.

TTH

[Spurlash2]

Thread title is Flying Pay, so that means Aviators, so that means I get to post this:


Aviators come from a secret society formed around a thousand years ago. They are warriors, and below is the proof. A little known fact is the origin of the word "aviator". Phu Khen (pronounced Foo Ken), 1169-? is considered by some to be the most under-recognized military officer in history. Many have never heard of his contributions to modern military warfare. The mission of this secret society is to bring honour to the name of Phu Khen. A Khen was a subordinate to a Khan in the military structure of the Mongol hordes. Khan is Turkish for leader. Most know of the great Genghis Khan, But little has been written of his chain of command.

Khen is also of Turkish origin, although there is not a word in English that adequately conveys the meaning. Roughly translated, it means “One who will do the impossible while appearing unprepared and complaining constantly." Phu Khen was one of ten Khens that headed the divisions or groups of hordes as they were known, of the Mongol Army serving under Genghis Khan. His abilities came to light during the Mongols' raids on the Turkistan city of Bohicaroo. Bohicans were fierce warriors and the city was well fortified. The entire city was protected by huge walls and the hordes were at a standoff with the Bohicans. Bohicaroo was well stocked and it would have been difficult to wait them out. Genghis Khan assembled his Khens and ordered each of them to develop a plan for penetrating the defenses of Bohicaroo.

Operation Achieve Victory, "AV", was born. All 10 divisions of Khens submitted their plan. After reviewing AV plans 1 through 7 and finding them unworkable or ridiculous, Genghis Khan was understandably upset. It was with much perspiration that Phu Khen submitted his idea, which came to be known as AV 8. Upon seeing AV 8, Genghis was convinced this was the perfect plan and gave immediate approval. The plan was beautifully simple.

Phu Khen would arm his hordes to the teeth, load them into catapults and hurl them over the wall. The losses were expected to be high, but hey, hordes were cheap. Those that survived the flight would engage the enemy in combat. Those that did not? Well, surely their flailing bodies would cause some damage. The plan worked and the Bohicans were defeated. From that day on, whenever the Mongol Army encountered an insurmountable enemy, Genghis Khan would give the order "Send some of the Phu Khen AV 8ers."

This is believed, though not by anyone outside our secret society, to be the true origin of the word Aviator. Phu Khen's AV8ers were understandably an unruly mob, not likely to be sociably acceptable. Many were heavy drinkers and insomniacs. However, when nothing else would do, you could always count on an AV8er. A Phu Khen Aviator, denied, perhaps rightfully so, his place in history, Phu Khen has been, nonetheless, immortalized in prose.

You hear mystical references, often hushed whispers, of "those Phu Khen Aviators." Do not let these things bother you. As with any secret society, we go largely misunderstood, prohibited by our apathy from explaining ourselves. You are expected to always live down to the reputation of the Phu Khen Aviator, a reputation cultivated for centuries, undaunted by scorn or ridicule, unhindered by progress. So drink up, be crude, sleep late, urinate in public and get the job done.
When others are offended, you can revel in the knowledge that YOU are a
PHU KHEN AVIATOR.

[Climebear]

Why does a JT get paid the same as an adminer despite having far more responsibility?

Because the bloody adminers set the pay rates.....

IIRC the job evaluation (see description from JSP 754 below) resulted in the Pers(Sp) trade (cpl and above) ending up in the 'discretionary' band which meant that it could go either way (higher or lower). The decision to move them to the higher pay band was taken by AMP - who was/is aircrew.

Job Evaluation

03.0203. JE is a well-established system used in both the private and public sectors as an objective means of assessing the weight of jobs. Measurement of job weight takes place against agreed criteria or ‘factors’. In the system used for the JE of military posts, each factor has a number of levels, which are assigned a numerical value, denoting the importance of that factor in relation to any given post. For ORs, a Whole Trade Score (WTS), which is the weighted average of a number of different jobs of the same rank/trade, is calculated. JE establishes a proper relativity between OR trades/branches in the 3 Services and provides the basis for comparison between job sizes in the Services and those in civilian life. JE evidence is used by the AFPRB to compare civilian salaries with Service salaries in the formulation of their recommendations for annual pay awards. The allocation of trades to ranges is subject to change. Current tables are shown at Annexes A-C.

03.0204. In order to provide consistent measurement of widely varying posts, the JE process breaks down in to 6 ‘factors’ that are assessed independently. The factors are:

a. Knowledge, Skills and Experience: required to operate successfully in the post and the range of application within the organisation.

b. Complexity and mental challenge: reflects the difficulty of the problems facing the job holder (JH) and the degree they must think for themselves to which solutions must be developed from first principles.

c. Judgement and decision: required of the JH and the impact on the success of the organisation.

d. Use of resources: in terms of people, budgets, equipment and property and influence on the development and operation of the organisation.

e. Communication: the level at which the JH must communicate both within the organisation (i.e. the MOD and the Services) and outside and the significance to the whole of the organisation.

f. Working conditions: the degree to which the JH’s ability to perform is affected by location, environment or constraints on methods of working (because of, for example, volatility of materials, etc).

03.0205. JE is concerned with the job and not the JH and does not take account of the abilities of the individual except to assume a satisfactory performance by the JH. It is possible to measure by JE the extent to which a job demands knowledge, skills of analysis, responsibility and endurance of difficult conditions, but not such personal qualities as integrity, initiative and honesty. Whether or not the individual possesses qualities of this nature is irrelevant; the job remains the same. JE does not measure job loading – which is a management issue and should be reflected in the annual appraisal.

[Geehovah]

Flying pay is a great way to keep aircrew (read pilots but if you upset navs; read navs) in the Service by paying money equivalent to the civilian counterpart. The master stroke is its not pensionable.

Sadly, most of us just attended the odd funeral without thinking of money and counted our blessings.

[Kreuger flap]

The master stroke is its not pensionable.

Sorry, but did I mention I was on PAS. Its all pensionable:ok:.

[Junglydaz]

I have no problem with aircrew receiving flying pay when in a flying post. But why are they still receiving it when flying a desk (which is a whole lot safer).

If we are using danger as a factor, it makes you wonder why the boys on the ground being shot at and blown up don't receive something similar. Being thousands of feet up is surely safer than being 100m away? Just a thought....

[TurbineTooHot]

Daz,

Please re-read the thread, see my post above.

Flying pay is for retention of costly skills, NOT NOT NOT danger money.

There are a few misleading posts about funerals and shooting blunties on this thread that get unnecessarily emotive.

If I could I'd raise the Op bonus, especially for the lads out in the FOBs and PBs who are copping it, but that's a very different argument and pot.

TTH

[Diablo Rouge]

Junglydaz is probably having a little dark blue banter, but in case he isnt, he should try a NVG approach into a Afghan ****hole illuminated by tracer one night should he need to justify Flying Pay..

I think that aircrew in receipt of PAS should get flying pay as it is unfair to take it off them when most still fly. My 2$ FWIW!

Come back MGD, you are missed :E and if not; Good Luck with your new venture. A PVR on the day you receive PAS is a hard act to follow.

[Airborne Aircrew]

People get Specialist pay because they are better than the average bear...

Live with it if you never got paid it...:E

[TurbineTooHot]

DR, didn't come across as any colour banter mate, it, like you view again misses the fundamental aspect.
Flying pay is not danger money!!!!!

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[BootFlap]

Please stop,don't feed the muppets. It's defined by HMG as being useful as a recruitment and retention measure.... FACT!

For me, I'm too old for recruitment to be a factor, but as a retention measure..... what else is there? Everything else I joined for has gone, but maybe they have thought about this, because now (with family and mortgage) it keeps me in, and guess what, I'm happy! NEXT

[VinRouge]

Junglydaz, FP has absolutely nothing to do with danger money and everything to do with retention. Why should pilots in a desk job still recieve it? Well, may i ask, how do you intend to retain your best people who are handpicked to go to jobs which require extensive first hand and up to date knowledge of aircraft and systems? Or, do you want joe average first tourist or even someone who has just recieved a 25% pay cut managing essential areas, albeit from behind a desk? Think of that next time you fly via military aviation.

I make no bones about it, career average, for every day i stay in the raf after my return of service is an equivalent pay cut. Why? Because the civvies, not only in the airline industry but all the other industries that rely on aviation based knowledge would pay me 20% more if i left today and my expected salary after 5 years would be double what i am on now. Why dont i leave? Well, despite all the crap that goes with the job, i love the people i work with. But make no bones if some brown job pongo idiot thinks vin will be sticking round after a 20% pay cut with job offers a plenty out there at the mo. Sour news, i wont, and neither will the vast majority i speak to. People are starting to wake up to the fact that military experience can earn you a lot of cash for jobs that many of us carry as an affiliated duty.


Here is a subtle note. The air force and in particular areas within military aviation are close to breaking point. In 12 months or so with the current outflow rates and the numbers of pilots not only completing licenses but now going to interview, we are going to have a retention crisis. When it happens, if they do anything drastic to fp, putting it back to how it is now will not solve the problem. Nothing short of pensionable flying pay is going to cut it i am afraid. Imho. And i bet the future bill for that will get the bean counters eyes watering.

[lj101]

On that note ref jobs outside

21 Group Captain slots for redundancy - 44 applied.

[The Old Fat One]

The purpose of flying pay is start a thread on PPRuNe every 12 months or so to enable sad losers (such as me) to rant about the purpose of flying pay


My Lud, the defence rests....

Or if you prefer...

My Lud, the defence rests....

[The Old Fat One]

In 12 months or so with the current outflow rates and the numbers of pilots not only completing licenses but now going to interview, we are going to have a retention crisis.


Mate...seriously.

[VinRouge]

Ofo, we will have plenty of pilots. Unfortunately, the vast majority of them wont have done much more than fly between kaf and bastion. All i see at the moment is a long line of our last solid experience of ops outside of herrick queueing for the exits. For example, i know of some pilots that havent done cold weather ops outside of the uk and have one, maybe 2 landings at a big international.

[Ken Scott]

I recently flew with a brand new LCR co-pilot who was doing his ATPL studies. How long can the RAF expect to retain him? Once he's completed his first few Herricks & realised that's all he can look forward to in the future, or loss of FP in a ground job, he'll be joining the long queue at the door......

[The Old Fat One]

I have met a great many RAF pilots in my time and very few of them have been stupid.

I worked at an FTO not so long ago. I know the entry level pay and conditions for aspiring civilian pilots. I know more than a few regional airline FOs.

So how many RAF pilots are up for a starting salary of 15K to 30K in a termingly boring job with "dead man shoes" promotion prospects and terms and conditions heading South as fast as the likes of O'Leary, Walsh et al can manage?

In 12 months...no chance. In 5 to 10 years...maybe.

[BEagle]

I recently flew with a brand new LCR co-pilot who was doing his ATPL studies. How long can the RAF expect to retain him? Once he's completed his first few Herricks & realised that's all he can look forward to in the future, or loss of FP in a ground job, he'll be joining the long queue at the door......

This isn't a new phenomenon. Shortly after a pilot returned to the VC10 force and finished his captain's course, I flew with him on his first squadron sortie....

....it was an 'observed IR' flight for his ATPL....:hmm:

Surely no ex-military pilot with any self-esteem would lower him/herself to flying for Mikey-the-Pikey's nasty little airline though?

[Junglydaz]

Diablo rouge said:

"but in case he isnt, he should try a NVG approach into a Afghan ****hole illuminated by tracer one night should he need to justify Flying Pay.."

Quite right, but what percentage of the pilot cadre across the three services have experienced that? Not really a valid argument, my friend.

ps. Banter indeed, but this thread was going nowhere was wasnt it? :)

[Chillwinston1]

Quite right, but what percentage of the pilot cadre across the three services have experienced that? Not really a valid argument, my friend.

A pretty high percentage of Chinook, Merlin and Sea King crews might say otherwise!;)

[xenolith]

So SP, in this case FP, is a recruitment and retention issue. That may be true, as illustrated on this thread, for the prima donna's in the front seat but what about NCA. As far as I recollect there is not, and never has been, a recruiting or retention issue. So why do they get it?
The really difficult case to make is PAS for NCA, I can't recall any of the first waves who wern't signed on to 55 anyway! :ugh:

[Corporal Clott]

In the first 4 months of this year 11 Wg Cdr pilots have PVRd or taken their option. That is roughly 10 per cent of our Wg Cdr pilot cadre with many to follow I fear. Still, it might pull up some overlooked Sqn Ldrs this year. :ok:

Cpl Clott

[Jayand]

And exactly why do pilots get to use Mil aircraft for ATPL'S? it's a bloody joke! using HM resources and time to feather their own nests!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

but what about NCA. As far as I recollect there is not, and never has been, a recruiting or retention issue. So why do they get it?
The really difficult case to make is PAS for NCA, I can't recall any of the first waves who wern't signed on to 55 anyway! :ugh:

If you are NCA and don't know the answer to this then I guess you must have slipped through the net, if you are not NCA then you will never ever understand, hence post #2 :p

[VinRouge]

Ref ATPL, every pilot is entitled to a certain amount of continuation training, of which, instrument flying is a key perishable skill, especially hand flown assymetric IF. I can assure you, opportunities to hand fly practice assy IF are rare these days. Unless you are saying you dont think the pilots that fly you on your next mil flight arent entitled to practice such a skill that is.

[Dengue_Dude]

I have met a great many RAF pilots in my time and very few of them have been stupid.


You lucky, lucky bastard (acknowledgements to Monty Python) :p

[fergineer]

Now then DD you know that it is not true Few are? Not some of the ones that have sat in front of me........apologies to the very few!!!!
Tin hat and flak jacket on.....
Banter switch off!!!!

[rathebelucky]

I wouldn't sweat too much on the Wg Cdr and other pilots leaving the service short of bums on promotion seats. There will be plenty of Navs waiting to fill the positions previously known as GD. It does seem that the RAF is rather keen to have a Nav fill the top slot at a time when it has all but made the branch (or WSO) pretty much obsolete.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I have to admit... While I liked, and in some cases, respected the pilots I flew with, only one or two were "rocket scientists"... Most were, but for a career choice, little different from their crewmen.

Cat... Pigeons... Go...

[xenolith]

SFFP

I think that its you who have missed the point. AA, as was, and NCA are, and always have been, ripped off on the flying pay issue. You may have got a slightly better deal with regard to pensions on PAS but the bean counters are laughing all the way.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP

I think that its you who have missed the point. AA, as was, and NCA are, and always have been, ripped off on the flying pay issue. You may have got a slightly better deal with regard to pensions on PAS but the bean counters are laughing all the way.

As someone who has a real vested interest in all of this perhaps you would like to run by me exactly where it is I have been or am being ripped off.

Before you start though please understand that I have absolutely no interest in what Pilots, Nav,s, WSO's etc etc get as I am a WSOP and not one of those previously mentioned.

[xenolith]

Before you start though please understand that I have absolutely no interest in what Pilots, Nav,s, WSO's etc etc get as I am a WSOP and not one of those previously mentioned.

My my someone has changed his tune over the last 20 years!

[Airborne Aircrew]

My my someone has changed his tune over the last 20 years!

B-I-T-C-H.... http://www.hqrafregiment.net/images/smilies/laughingat.gif

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

You must have me confused with someone else as envy is not a trait I have or ever have had.

I have no interest in what my colleagues may or may not earn but I do know the 60k wage I currently receive with expected 100+k handout and 33k pension at 55 is plenty when I consider who and what I am.

So to go back to a previous post can you tell me where exactly I am being stiffed:confused:

[Nimblast 1]

Seldomfitforpurpose

Quote "As someone who has a real vested interest in all of this perhaps you would like to run by me exactly where it is I have been or am being ripped off.
Before you start though please understand that I have absolutely no interest in what Pilots, Nav,s, WSO's etc etc get as I am a WSOP and not one of those previously mentioned".

I guess FP does not really affect you as you are on PAS, so how about this single point of how WSOp's were/are being ripped off (unless something has changed after I recently left).

PAS was to decouple pay from rank and this is how it works for Pilots, Nav's they have no rank bars to the next pay level.
So why when WSOp's were allowed on to PAS were rank bars introduced only for NCA??

You may have absolutely no interest in what Pilots, Nav,s, WSO's etc etc get as you are a WSOp, but do you have an interest in fairness?
However you dress it up PAS is not fair for WSO's.

[xenolith]

You must have me confused with someone else as envy is not a trait I have or ever have had.

I have no interest in what my colleagues may or may not earn

:hmm: The rules of the forum forbid a proper response to that!

but I do know the 60k wage I currently receive with expected 100+k handout and 33k pension at 55 is plenty when I consider who and what I am

Agreed!

Subject closed I think; hard to challenge when an opinion changes with the wind, for the wind up.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

hard to challenge when an opinion changes with the wind, for the wind up

It didn't and it wasn't :ok: