Brize move a farce..

[plans123]

An interesting post here (http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=38315) .....

What do you think? have they made a pigs ear out of a silk purse?

[lj101]

Brize Norton has, from the Station Commander down, been filled with ex Lynham personnel in key positions for the last 2 years. It was done (i am told) to help smooth the path for Lyneham to be 'absorbed' as much as possible with their 'own' looking after them.
It was always going to be a nightmare to sort out, but if there are any sticks to be thrown, any accusation of 'Brize personnel seeing them off', is not one of them.

[FFP]

Brize Norton has, from the Station Commander down, been filled with ex Lynham personnel

Apart from the last Staish who spent most of his time at Brize.......
(Not mentioned because I think that's an issue, more to correct the fact about Lyneham people in key posts........)

[lj101]

FFP

Sorry mate - i am confused (not difficult). The station commander at Brize, who's been in situ for quite a while, is a hercules mate.

The last station commander, was not.

What's your point?

[AdmiralPiett]

I'm really confused...
Where has this come from?

"but if there are any sticks to be thrown, any accusation of 'Brize personnel seeing them off', is not one of them"???

and ? again! You then seem to answer your own accusation by implying that the Ex-Lyneham pers at Brize are at blame?

On monday you're all going to part of one station.

[lj101]

Admiral whatever you are called...

My point is simply - it was always going to be a nightmare to absorb the 2 stations into one. No one is to blame as all doing their best with the cards they were given.

..and now bored with thread so spew all you like.

[AdmiralPiett]

And my point was simply - that your original post is full of them and us.

Surely that is the source of the problem?

That is all.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I think it's a bit silly to blame this on an "us and them" situation between the 2 bases.

How does that generate the problem that singlies are being put in hotels for 18-odd months before accommodation's available, and the waiting list for quarters stretches to over 50 families?

Sounds like there's not really enough space at Brize, frankly.

[MrBernoulli]

Sounds like there's not really enough space at Brize, frankly.There never was, even before there was a hint of closing Lyneham! Only boneheads would think it is feasible or practical to put all that on one base such as Brize. 10 Sqn reforms very shortly too, with the Scarebus 330. Ground aircraft movements around the taxiways are going to become a real issue. As are noise complaints.

Thank ferk I am no longer directly involved in either of the farces that are Brize and the RAF. Really sad situation.

[Neptunus Rex]

This whole sorry scheme was a b*ggers muddle from its inception.

A quart into a pint pot as any fule coud see.

[Kitsune]

Of course, all those now at Brize who have been b.ggered about in their service lives (and of course their dependents) will have ample opportunity to exercise their democratic rights by voting out the local M.P....:E:E:E

[BEagle]

As are noise complaints.

Mr B, mate, there's so little flying in British West Oxfordshire these days, that noise is the least concern....

Good luck to all those who will have to suffer under this utter bollockology - it is clear that 'individual needs' were never considered when this ar$e decision was made.

[Evalu8ter]

Beags,
Probably quite the opposite. The "individual needs" of a small group have been very well met by this farce; those individuals that have been rewarded by promotions and gongs thanks to the "savings" they've generated.....

[MrBernoulli]

Beags,

I was referring to the fact that once you put all those Lyneham movements in to Brize, then noise complaints will increase. And that is true even if the movement numbers overall aren't that comparable to a moderately busy civvie airfield. Just the fact that movements ramp up to a point that has not been reached before, will be enough to set off the nimbys! I'll put money on it.

[FFP]

lj101,

Quite a while = 1 year, nearly to the day. Not 2 years and not when the majority of CATARA (if that's still a politically correct term to use) was ongoing.

Dom Stamp = Lyneham (Hercs)
Jon Ager = Brize Norton (VC-10....(nimrod too but beside the point....)

RAF Brize Norton - News and Weather (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton/newsweather/index.cfm?storyid=3BD02C1F-5056-A318-A8102432E4EDB3F8)

[DADDY-OH!]

Just out of curiosity, when all the KC30's, C130J's, A400M's & C17's arrive at Brize', how many airframes will be based there?

And will there be any Herc C1's, C3's, VC-10's & TriStars still in service by then?

Cheers in advance

DO! :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

When your own Sqn boss tells the audience that a sense of humour is really going to be needed over the coming months you just know the cake and arse have been ordered by the truck load.

[Justanopinion]

RAF Brize Norton - CATARA (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton/aboutus/catara.cfm)

[Justanopinion]

And my point was simply - that your original post is full of them and us.

Don't see the them and us in LJ101s post, merely a response showing that Lyneham personnel were put in place to help the transition, nothing to do with blame.

Maybe you are being a little sensitive?

[Truck2005]

I was down at Brize this weekend and there seemed to be more civie aircraft parked there than anything else!!!!!:hmm:

[WE992]

After all these months of being told everything is going to plan I am told that
1AMW will not be moving to Brize in November but delayed until at least April 12 because there is no accommodation available !!!!!

No shocks, perhaps the reality that Brize simply is not big enough is at last becoming apparent now that a significant number of personnel have at last been posted from Lyneham.

[Biggus]

....aren't we already past April 11....? :ok:

[Runaway Gun]

No, for Statistical and Appearance purposes, Brize Management have put back all calendars by four months. Problem solved :rolleyes:

[Mighty Quercus]

Well at least the car parking issue could be solved!!! See planning applications 03 may 11

http://carterton-tc.gov.uk/docs/pdf_627.pdf

I didn't understand it either but this link explains all!!

Portable and Temporary Car Parks | Fast Assembly Car Park Hire & Permanent Modular Parking | Another Level Car Parks Ltd (http://www.anotherlevelcarparks.co.uk/)

Of course other companies provide similar services.

Not sure where they would build this, would make sense in the long term car park by the gateway.

I wonder if they do demountable barrack blocks and SFA!!!!

With a seven month delay on 1AMW moving and possible knock effect to TMW, the 225 house earmarked for REEMA North still haven't had planning approval yet, this farce is set to continue.

[Willard Whyte]

MQ, brings to mind an exchange at a Lyneham captain's board many years ago, something along the lines of:

Q: "Have you any suggestions that might enhance our operational capability?"

A: "Provide more car parking"

[Nomorefreetime]

I was at Brize on Thursday and had a drive around the JR accom patch. Car parking is gonna be an absolute mare, there is hardly and spaces between the blocks, Multi story was discussed as the only way to solve this problem

[Runaway Gun]

A slight problem? There's a workshop on the base that could trim the desk if required...

Now I know that plan won't work for the families who can't fit in the available accomodation...

[Wander00]

Office size at MPA was a problem -75% of "UK Training Scale" - my office would take 2 out of 3 - me, the desk and the chair!

[Roadster280]

There's a workshop on the base that could trim the desk if required...

However, by the time the job had been costed, effort estimated at commercial rates, a risk assessment carried out etc, it would be cheaper to buy new desks.

Even a decade or so ago, I needed an 8' length of 2x4 for a demo in my classroom teaching Antennas and Propagation. I went to the workshops, and was given the above line. It was much more pragmatic to buy my own for a couple of quid.

[Dr Schlong]

The car park in that link seems identical to the one at Bicester outlet village - not that I go there too often, my wardrobe is well stocked with enough shocking shirts for now...

[downsizer]

JRs have cars now?

[Roadster280]

JRs have cars now?

Junior Rodneys? They've been able to afford them for a while now. Their wages are almost up to a Corporal's.

[Willard Whyte]

JRs have cars now?

Yes, but most of them are quite frightfully vulgar..

[spekesoftly]

....most of them are quite frightfully vulgar..

JRs, their cars, or both? ;)

[Runaway Gun]

Planning permission for new built Family Quarters have been granted this week. :hmm:

[WE992]

That will mean quite a few more months in the Holiday Inn Swindon then whilst perfectly good service accommodation sits empty at Lyneham.

[BEagle]

It seems that the 'droning skips' are causing a lot of complaints:

Arrival of new Hercules planes causes upset (From Oxford Mail) (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/9166693.Residents_accuse_RAF_of_torture_over_aircraft_noise/?ref=mr)

Now, no doubt someone will bleat "Don't they know that there's a war on?". Well, yes they do - and have supported Brize activities for years. However, engine runs at 0100-0500 stretch the limit somewhat....

[November4]

I did like this comment...

The Hercules are incredibly noisy

compared to the VC10 which is so quiet....

Do have some sympathy for the locals with the sudden increase in activity but would much rather have the noise than the silence that is around the Lyneham area now.

[Really annoyed]

RAF Brize Norton spokesman Katie Zasada said “It is probably a 25 per cent increase over what we expected. We did not anticipate the number of engine ground runs.” :ugh: You mean nobody told you that 33 aircraft require maintenance?

Oh hang on............

Ms Zasada said less Hercules had been stationed at the base than was expected and so each was having to run more missions – to destinations including Libya and Afghanistan – meaning more maintenance had to be done at night for a quicker turnaround of each plane.

Well there you are then.

“Without the test the aircraft would not be able to go out, and that could have dire consequences.”

So what are you moaning about then.

Dear residents of the surrounding area of RAF Brize Norton. PFO and move somewhere else. Or better still move the Hercules back to RAF Lyneham where the locals appreciated them. You can then leave Brize Norton to the REMF shiney fleet.:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

There will be plenty of folk on here who have never quite got to grips with RA's style of banter but you would be very hard pressed to fault this latest offering :ok:

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

He said: “All the residents appreciate the strategic importance of RAF Brize Norton, but this noise is completely off the Richter scale.

“They have decided to get the planes on the runway and warm up the engines at full, screaming tilt almost every night between 1am and 5am.

“You cannot function as a human being when you are denied sleep every single night. We are being tortured.

“I have spoken to a huge number of residents in the village and some people are almost suicidal about it.”

You have got to smile....... :rolleyes:

[MrBernoulli]

In June, on this very thread, I wrote that noise would become a real issue once the Hercs arrived. Shortly thereafter BEagle replied that:
Mr B, mate, there's so little flying in British West Oxfordshire these days, that noise is the least concern....I came back with:
I was referring to the fact that once you put all those Lyneham movements in to Brize, then noise complaints will increase. And that is true even if the movement numbers overall aren't that comparable to a moderately busy civvie airfield. Just the fact that movements ramp up to a point that has not been reached before, will be enough to set off the nimbys! I'll put money on it.I rest my case! :E

I'm just off to the bookie to collect my winnings .............

[Ken Scott]

.... perhaps when the Hercules pilots no longer need to fly around in low level circles trying to remember where the base is it will all settle down??

I very much doubt it - I think they will spend quite alot of time 'flying around in low level circles trying to remember where the base is'.

[downsizer]

However, engine runs at 0100-0500 stretch the limit somewhat....
They can only be run during those hours if it is required for a critical tasking... What do you propose? Delay the frame departing?

[BEagle]

You're quite right, MrB - I'd forgotten the fact that the 'droning skips' can't be put onto a de-tuner! There's still very little local circuit flying, by the way.

A chap well-connected with CATARA / Future Brize did actually tell me that C-130 ground running would prove a problem - winding the old things up and running them for hours on end seems to be a C-130 maintenance requirement...:hmm: As it was when I was a UAS Plt Off on Summer Camp at Abingdon (3 items the RAF can no longer afford, incidentally - UAS Plt Offs, Summer Camps and RAF Abingdon) and they did Belslo ground runs which went on for hour after hour - but by day.

The issue seems to revolve around lack of available airframes and those which do still work needing frequent fettling. So the locals are made to suffer because the C-130s are totally $hagged....:hmm: Perhaps they should write to their MP....:E

[Lockstock]

I should think the good residents around the base will soon get used to it.

Lets face it, we've all put up with a constant whining from Brize Norton for years now..

:hmm:

[3engnever]

RA, you really are a sorry no personal insults in here: mods. Why have a go at the hard working Sqns at Bzz, just because the locals have complained about the noise. It is this type of 'Banter' that just causes more issues.

I am sure you would rather still be at Lyneham, but even so, why slag off the Bzz guys, most of whom wish you were still at Lyneham as well. Not though, may i add, because they think your job is less worthwhile, but actually because of good reasons, it was worth having 2 bases rather than 1, more room for people and kit, no parking issues, an extra runway etc.

However, budgetary constraints have left us where we are and we have to make the best of it. In house bickering just makes us all look very silly. Everyone is working hard to make the best of it and to service the front line in their own way. Some may be in more 'danger' than others, but I dare say the Army dudes are probably calling the entire RAF REMF's based on that outlook!! We all do what we can, given our platform, for the best of each other; or at least that is the way I view it.

There, I've bitten!!

There

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

3eng,

Bearing in mind that the VC10 is still one of the noisiest feckin things on the planet, I was first posted to BZN in 75 and it was obscenely noisy then, you have to take RA's comments in context.

How come it's only once the Herc arrives that the noise complaints start, it does rather infer it was all peace and quiet with **** all going on up till then.

[Really annoyed]

Oh dear. Was it the REMF shiney fleet comment that upset you? I didn't realise that you shiney fleet airline types were like that. Are you on twenty one six squadron by any chance.

[LookingNorth]

We used to stay at a caravan site on the edge of Mildenhall for the airshow each year. Prolonged Herc ground runs are a hateful, unpleasant, soul destroying experience if you're trying to get some sleep. They just drone on and on and on and on and on and on and on with a semi-random edge to them that means you can't tune them out.

VC10s are noisy but scream off and away and that's it.

Also, as I recall Lyneham is pretty much surrounded by earth banking, base housing, trees etc. Brize is a much more open vista so the noise is going to travel a lot more easily.

Needless to say only an amoeba could not have foreseen this problem, but then amoebas seem to have been put in charge of the whole Brize move.

[3engnever]

SFFP,

If you read my post correctly, you will see that I make no point about the C130's noise pollution compared to that of the previous Bzz types. I agree that the VC10 and probably TriStar for that matter is equally, if not more so, noisy than the Herc, it was more a point that the 'them and us' attitude is doing nobody any favours, and, yes RA, the REMF comments do not help anyone.

RA, as to my Sqn, why would that concern you, I don't want to know yours! More to the point is that, you may think that you work harder than everyone else and that you are the most courageous aviator on this planet, but without the REMF fleet you wouldn't have a job to do. That hub and spoke doesn't work without us REMF's you know, charter boys included.

Anyway, sorry to the mods and RA for the personal attack, no harm intended, just sick of this whole, we hate Brize and want to be and Lyneham tosh. In an ideal world we would still have a whole lot of stations we have had to shut down but unfortunately we are broke. RA, maybe discuss over a beer in the, admittedly pretty rubbish, Bzz OM on an upcoming DIN!!

[anita gofradump]

Ahhhh come on, you got your bite RA........now you're just being harsh. The padre will be involved if this carries on. :}

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

3eng,

You miss my point, if there were no noise complaints till Albert arrived, and now there are loads RA's remf analogy has some merit :ok:

[CONSTELLATION1]

Latest is that planning for new multistory car park has not been granted. Over the road looks a good buy right now.

[Father Jack Hackett]

So I take it from your earlier post that you buy into the concept that this move saves money.

Personally, I believe if we wanted to save money in the short term we should have postponed the move and suspended work on Brize.

Furthermore, throughout CATARA there has been a serious question mark over how long the savings in recurring costs would take to repay the up-front investment in Brize (if ever).......

[Always a Sapper]

FJH

It was never going to happen, once the decision had been made that was it, far too many political reputations at stake you see.

Will it turn out to be the best idea since sliced bread? Who knows, personally I doubt it, well not for about 10 maybe 15 years anyway and even then only because the current Lyne/Brize folks will have moved through the system and memories begin to fade. But what do I know, being an ex Squaddie.

Thing is, if they really wanted save money why didn’t they just shut both Brize And Lyneham and move the whole shooting match to Fairford?

Thinking on it though, the way things are going with all the cuts etc at the moment it won't be long before we will be able to get the whole tri-service thing into Keevil, having first dug a pond for the navy's remaining bosun dinghy to bob about in of course....

Sad really, not what we joined up for or what so many of our friends made sacrifices for either :(

It'll end in tears one day, be like 1938/9 all over again.

[Not a Crew Chief]

Beagle, I can assure you we did Belfast engine runs at Abingdon in the early hours which annoyed the residents of Boars Hill, but I remember it as always cold and snowing so you may have missed those. It got to the point where the station PBX put all incoming calls directly through to the aircraft. After all the only calls at that time of night were going to be complaints, and yes there was a telephone on board connected to a point on the pan.
Things lightened up one night when we answerd a call from a sweet old lady who was most concerned at how late we were working and were we warm enough and had enough to eat.
Problem with checks on turboprops is you can't detune the props.

[Willard Whyte]

Watch out! Watch out!

There's a

http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Cabinet-Making/images/Fig-22-Shell-Gimlet.jpg

about!

[Mandator]

Anyone remember exactly the same issues after the move of 72 Hunters from Chivenor to Brawdy in 1974?

[Gulfstreamaviator]

just a thought, it must be a mandatory polically correct situation.

glf

[Dan Gerous]

Stepping well out of my knowledge zone, can you remove the blades from a turbo prop and run the engine, and would this reduce the noise?

[November4]

1AMW will not be moving to Brize in November but delayed until at least April 12 because there is no accommodation available !!!!!

No shocks, perhaps the reality that Brize simply is not big enough is at last becoming apparent now that a significant number of personnel have at last been posted from Lyneham.

With Lyneham now staying open - what are the odds on 1AMW staying at Lyneham and driving to Brize for each task?

After all the old UKMAMS used to be based at Abingdon and drove across to Lyneham or Brize.

[BEagle]

We've already lost op and trg sorties due to local knee-jerk responses to gurning locals. Whilst I can sympathise to a certain extent the stn does seem to be over sensitive to local gurns and moans.

Bloody rude, even for you, old chum....:=

The station clearly underestimated the noise problem when this bolleaux decision was made in the first place - and it is entirely unreasonable to expect a generally supportive local population to tolerate additional noise resulting from MoD's impecunity.

Incidentally, car parking was one of the first topics I raised when this shotgun wedding was first considered. But 'they' knew better, of course, - "It won't be a problem"....:rolleyes:

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Stepping well out of my knowledge zone, can you remove the blades from a turbo prop and run the engine, and would this reduce the noise?


Yes you can actually. But not on the aircraft only on a test bed.

Not a great deal of use for diagnosing "on aircraft" faults.

[sled dog]

When i was at Bzn on the "Whispering Giant" we never got complaints :ok: The noisy ones were the "10s"...........Anyway, who remembers the pleasure of listening to an extended ground run of an Argosy :sad:

[valveclosed]

Whats the problem with parking!!? seems to me it is no worse than it was, i have managed to find somewhere to park within reasonable distance of the sqn or the sim building everytime have come in
I think the hardest thing is going to be getting in to the med centre or dental centre as its always been pretty bad

[Photoplanet]

"Stepping well out of my knowledge zone, can you remove the blades from a turbo prop and run the engine, and would this reduce the noise? "

Yes, of course you could remove the blades...... But, after putting them back on, and before flight, you would need to carry out another ground run....... etc

[Always a Sapper]

The station clearly underestimated the noise problem when this bolleaux decision was made in the first place - and it is entirely unreasonable to expect a generally supportive local population to tolerate additional noise resulting from MoD's impecunity.

Incidentally, car parking was one of the first topics I raised when this shotgun wedding was first considered. But 'they' knew better, of course, - "It won't be a problem"....

Spot on as always BEagle, noise levels at both stations pre move were pretty well controlled and the locals pretty much happy (you always get one or two who have a pop though) and yes, a lot noticed the airfield was there when buying a house. But I'm not sure folks in Brize or Carterton (who in the main are very supportive of BZN) signed up for a 24hr operation the likes of which they have now or are gonna get in the near future.

The move itself it seems was done to quick, everything should have been in place and ready to go before it started. It's not as though it was unexpected ffs, when was it announced? 2001/2?

As for the Quarters, the ones in Brize should have been knocked down 2 days after they were built not just before the move started! I can honestly say the one I had for 2 years was the worst MQ I'd ever had in 22 years service, even the old beaten up pile of bricks we had in Tidworth was better :eek: and thats saying something coming from a squaddy!

Still we are where we are now and somehow I don't think they will be going back to Lyneham. Mind you, would people be really surprised if they did? (now theres a rumor to start... remember, you heard it here first :E )

[Always a Sapper]

Always a Sapper...

There are, apparently, 2 runways at lyneham, plenty of spare accommodation and some sim buildings that might be of use.....

Potential bolt-hole for the C130 when the locals revolt!

Mind you, they've had years of warning that Brize was going to get busy....


Aye, apparently so. The occasional one does seem to get lost now and then since the move and wander over for a quick look-see.

And I've not been asked to have the fuse's out for the runway lights yet either.

Being pertantic there's actually 3 runways although one's of more use as a car park these days but even so it is a LOT better than Brizes old spare runway!

[Ken Scott]

Being pertantic

Being pedantic, it's spelt 'pedantic'!

As for the 'third' runway at Lyneham, Rwy 31 would work with a very short taxy from the apron but the overrun on Rwy 13 could get quite obstructed.

[Always a Sapper]

KS

Thunks for th spll chick, nixt thim Ill remumber to chek before postin

and yes, the overrun could get very interesting very quickly.

[iRaven]

Lots of Grumpy Monkeys in the Gateway last night when a tanker blacked the runway for quite some time - good job we have another AT friendly airfield...ah, well done Pike, I wondered when someone would spot that...:ooh:

iRaven

[Ken Scott]

a tanker blacked the runway

It can't have done, their Airships did studies to show that wouldn't happen.

[Willard Whyte]

One of the geniuses who helped decide to close DL has emigrated to Canadialand.

Wise move, methinks.

[eard]

Isn't it time someone suggested we get on our bikes (green, save the planet good for fitness etc) I'll get me coat!

[Ken Scott]

Isn't it time someone suggested we get on our bikes (green, save the planet good for fitness etc)

To solve what problem - the blacking of the runway? Are you suggesting that people cycle instead of flying? Or now that people's place of work has moved 35 miles north-east that the all cycle there?

[wornboots]

I'll speak if I may as a member of a non REMF and non shiny fleet squadron at BZN and also a resident of Brize Village.

Firstly, some of the comments on here (and Im not naming names) are incredibly immature and have had no real thought put into them except for selfish, childish reasons.
It's quite simple, one of the two bases had to go and Lyneham's runway just isn't big enough to support the heavy aircraft, it doesn't matter how many runways are there, they aren't long enough!

Secondly, noise pollution; the last survey carried out at Brize had 80% of aircraft movements done between 07:00 and 23:00, this figure has now reversed with most aircraft movements taking place in the once quiet hours.
It is currently 01:30, there is a herc running it's engines and has been for almost an hour. Last week a VC-10 carried out max power runs at 23:45 for an hour, is this fair on the local population?
The times and type of noise pollution has changed dramatically in the past 6 months and I can see why local residents are losing sleep.

Do they have reason to complain... Absolutely they do, it's going against human rights!

[Really annoyed]

it's going against human rights!

Actually, in the thirteen schedules of the Human Rights Act, nowhere does it state that they are entitled to a good nights sleep. Suck it up or move.:ok:

[Specaircrew]

Speaking as a resident of Brize village for the past 20 years I'm reminded of the old saying ' If you don't like the smell of pigs then don't buy a house next to a pig farm'!

[Grabbers]

Specaircrew

I think you may need to change the location on your profile. :ok:

[November4]

Last week a VC-10 carried out max power runs at 23:45 for an hour

Can't put the blame for that one on the closure of Lyenham and the Hercs moving over.

[sharpend]

This reminds me of a certain Sqn Ldr who moved close to Kemble only a couple of years ago, complained about the noise (what noise!), lobbied his local council who spent thousands of pounds of our money trying to shut the airfield down which had only been there since the middle of the last century.

There is a great article in the latest issue of Pilot entitled 'Be careful what you wish for, Nimbys'. In short, if they closed Brize it would become something worse, possible an open prison?

[airborne_artist]

Can't put the blame for that one on the closure of Lyenham and the Hercs moving over. Are there limits on space or similar for power runs? Is it possible that the Funbus had to wait for a slot?

[Runaway Gun]

It may have simply been fixed at that hour, and needed for an early start in a few hours. Sometimes when it needs to go, it needs to happen now.

[Redcarpet]

Are the same people complaining about the 'torturous' noise also the ones who are likely to be revelling in a predicted 25 % increase in rental prices and almost a 10 % rise in house prices? :mad:

[BirdController]

An interesting thread - of course the move isnt a farce. As with all things military the skills and abilities of our people on the ground will make the integration of Lyneham & Brize work. Yes, there are the inevitable teething problems involving the squadrons meshing together. Yes, there will be problems with the local community and the station when different flight patterns become apparant, and of course any engine runs after midnight are a pain in the ass - why shouldnt nearby residents complain?

As for me, well I live within the circuit at Brize AND I work shifts there. But, I also know that eventually Brize will settle down as the new RAF 'Superbase' - already action has been taken regarding low flying by the C130's at night - no more 500' circuits Southside unless operationally essential, and there already seems to be a new set-up for Herc engine runs (on taxiway Golf by the almost completed repatriation centre rather than on the old 101sqn bays). Lets be fair gents, how many of you would put up with Hercs at full chat for up to 2hrs at a time after midnight??

Whether we like it or not, we now live in a world where those who pay our (military)salaries and purchase our (military)aircraft have a say too.

Exactly as you do :ok::ok:

[StopStart]

Lets be fair gents, how many of you would put up with Hercs at full chat for up to 2hrs at a time after midnight??

Can't speak for the rest of humanity but I certainly "coped" with it for 16 years... Being a herc pilot doesn't make me immune to annoying noises. I just got used to it. I assumed it was something to do with my living on and near an airfield....:hmm:

[LookingNorth]

In short, if they closed Brize it would become something worse, possible an open prison?

Well I'm sure the locals around what was RNAS Ford don't complain about noise anyway.

[Ken Scott]

It's quite simple, one of the two bases had to go

I beg to differ. True, Lyneham has the shorter runways (but the big jets could and did land there) but they were big enough for the C130. The original basing study had to choose between Lyneham, Brize Norton & St Mawgan and the latter was closed; there was no need to close a second airfield. 'Closing' (it's not even going to close now) Lyneham & moving the C130s to Brize has cost £190 million (& some more) with the expectation of makings savings sometime in the future. We are short of money now, it was a very dim decision to spend alot of money in the present hoping to save a bit in the furure.

We have lost a fine airfield with a supportive local population where you could fly 500ft circuits without them complaining (well, not much anyway). Brize aircraft would come to Lyneham to fly circuits at weekends because they couldn't at home.

[Runaway Gun]

Just how big and how heavy were the 'big jets' when they landed there? And could they really get off with a full load?

[Jumping_Jack]

We certainly had a fair number of stretch DC8s though the early 90's with full loads of tank armour (every other day as I recall), they managed to get away (unless there is an undiscovered pile of Chobam/Aluminium mix just off the end of the runway! :})

[glum]

Seen Tristars there, and they're about as big as it gets - heavier footprint than a 747. As I understand it the taxiways and parking was also a probem?

[Ken Scott]

Well, during GW2 the C17s would land at Lyneham to load up before heading off to the Gulf so they weren't taking off empty. Charter DC8s & A300s seemed to have no problem operating to the ME out of Lyneham.

[Ken Scott]

As I understand it the taxiways and parking was also a probem?

DC8s & A300s used the main pan but parked close to Entry 2. The lines & parking bays were painted for C130s so for larger aircraft there wasn't too much room when the pan was full of aircraft. C17 has always managed to park outside the Main Terminal when doing Pabbays, even when there were aircraft parked in the bays, although it looked quite tight.

[Whenurhappy]

RA - it may not be covered by ECHR, as noise is adequately covered under environment law. Environmental legislation does not necessarily recognise - and accept - long-standing infringments. The RAF has no more right to make noise than any other organisation, although aircraft noise is a necessary byproduct of a lawful enterprise.

I quote from a report into military aircraft noise:

'Noise has long been established in common law as a form of nuisance, to wit, a material interference with a person's enjoyment of property rights...Under Environmental Protection Act (Part III) 1990 individuals may bring action in a civil court for nuisance in which they seek a court order (injunction) restraining the defendant form continuing some wrongful act or omission, and seek damages in compensation. Although Crown Exemption was granted for noises of a military or operational nature, it is likely that over the next decade European legislative pressure may result in the loss of immunity and [it is expected that] passive noise mitigation measures must be introduced to achieve the extant standards and to ensure a continued 'Good Neighbour' policy.'

[Runaway Gun]

Running engines in the middle of the night is completely unnecessary - Afghan War or no Afghan War.

Many others will disagree with you Brian. These transport aircraft are not out flying for a jolly time in the Virgin Islands, but are taking important freight/personnel/supplies etc out to a war zone. Sometimes they have to evacuate wounded or worse back home.

[Grabbers]

Brian, some good points there and almost all valid. Apart from the last one. If one can count the number of potential assets (aircraft in this case) on the fingers of two people then the engineering required to maintain 'output' is critical. We don't have the luxury of carrying u/s aircraft anymore. I'm not necessarily pro noise but I do live in the real world. Close to Brize as it happens.

Some of the cold war warriors need to realise the RAF is not the beast it used to be.

[StopStart]

Sorry Brian but little Johnnie copping it because everyone was being bothered by the nasty planes and couldn't sleep is reaching in extremis. What if they stayed up watching TV all night? Or perhaps the baby was crying all night? Or there was a loud thunderstorm? There are plenty of things that will disturb a night's sleep and suggesting that just one of them in isolation will lead to the collapse of the Oxfordshire NHS is, I'm afraid, a little poor :hmm:

PS. the VC10 nav couldn't sleep because of the noise or because he kept falling off the bouncy castle? :E

[Ken Scott]

Running engines in the middle of the night is completely unnecessary - Afghan War or no Afghan War.

One of the more ridiculous assertions I've read on this forum, and that's up against some pretty stiff competition. No engine runs during the night equals no serviceable aeroplanes in the morning which means no training or operational sorties.

[Whenurhappy]

I stress the earlier legal point - the RAF have no right to create noise that constitutes a nuisance - irrespective of how long they have done it at any location - the principle of 'Ancient Lights' doesn't apply (ie enjoyment of/exercise of an activity acquired through lapse of time); at present Crown Immunity stops further sanctions being taken, however it is behoven on the operating authority to take all practical measures to mitigate noise form aircraft operations.

In other words, just because Brize Norton has been there since 1918 (or whenever) gives it no more right to produce noise than a new manufactory with noise producing processes which may consitute a nuisance. At present, noise from military activity enjoys excemption, but this is a fairly weak defence this day and age.

And before I am accused of not 'supporting our boys on the Malabar Front', I am simply pointing out that producing noise that is a nuisance is illegal. And yes, I do think it naive of people who buy properties around an established noise producer - bet it an airfield, an range, cow shed or church bells - and then complain about it. The lovely church bells from our parish church clock near our UK home have been silenced between 2200 - 0800 because of lcocal complaints; where I am currently residing we are woken up with noise from our nearby place of worhsip at 0600 - and repeated throughout the day till about 11 pm - or later. I wouldn't dare complain - the locals would be at the door with flaming torches and all manner of sharp objects post haste.

[Otis Spunkmeyer]

Nightshift goes quicker when you're busy, but it goes quicker still if you're asleep. De-caff for the Tea Bar. Sky TV & Wireless Internet.

Everybody happy.

[BEagle]

I arrived at Brize just after the 'aileron tension regualtor' saga had grounded all the VC10s in 1983. Once they'd been fixed, there was a huge backlog of transport tasks to clear, so for most of the first month or two I was woken up by the gentle purr of the mighty Vickers WhisperJet taking to the air at 0-dark-00. But only for a few minutes..... TACEVAL VC10 engine ground runs on the waterfront at night were not terribly popular with the Cartoontown inmates either! The local plod lost it once and told the Stn that if the Land Rover with loud call-out air horns (which used to drive around the married patch whenever there was an exercise called at night) ever did so again, he'd arrest the driver! But the best TACEVAL incident was when the Aux Rock Sqn spotted some TACEVAL team people forming up off base and gave chase. The Battle of Burford High Street kept OC Admin Whinge pretty busy for quite some days!

The continuous noise of ground running is a different kettle of fish. Very annoying, BUT the reason is simple. The current level of tasking and availability of assets do not grant the luxury of a 14 or 16 hour engineering day, so there will be a requirement for ground runs at night whilst the UK is still involved in operations in Afghanistan and Libya.

However, low level circuits at night and different circuit patterns as compared to the established VC10 and TriStar (and flying club!) patterns should certainly come under scrutiny. When I was teaching circuits (whether VC10 or PA28), a lot of time was spent instructing pilots about which villages etc. they had to avoid and the necessary ground features to use which achieved this.

Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements (e.g. straight ahead to 1000ft aal before turning downwind, with a 1500ft circuit height)? The C130s are relatively new to Brize, but some of the cowboy flying which (some) JATE and PTS crews occasionally used to indulge in, such as cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot mustn't become the norm - there's no real excuse for that, no matter how much fun it might be. As for the silly sod in a WOTG C130 who barged into the circuit on an unannounced downwind join between 2 VC10s on a formation run-in and break......:mad: But that was quite a while ago and I'm sure things are more controlled these days.

[downsizer]

When should they do the 'gogs circuits if they can't be done at night then?

[Ken Scott]

However, low level circuits at night and different circuit patterns as compared to the established VC10 and TriStar (and flying club!) patterns should certainly come under scrutiny.

Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements (e.g. straight ahead to 1000ft aal before turning downwind, with a 1500ft circuit height)? The C130s are relatively new to Brize, but some of the cowboy flying which (some) JATE and PTS crews occasionally used to indulge in, such as cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot mustn't become the norm - there's no real excuse for that, no matter how much fun it might be. As for the silly sod in a WOTG C130 who barged into the circuit on an unannounced downwind join between 2 VC10s on a formation run-in and break...... But that was quite a while ago and I'm sure things are more controlled these days.

Beagle,

You seem to have the typical 'shiney' attitude towards a tactical aircraft, which is rather odd considering your Vulcan & F4 background. The C130 is not operated like an ex-airliner and whilst some things might have been done in the past in the name of 'fun' that doesn't preclude operating the aircraft in a different manner to the VC10 & Tristar. The C130 needs to do a great more visual flying than the rest of the Brize aircraft, especially at night, because that's how they're flown operationally.

As for 'cranking the aircraft around shortly after take-off and thundering over Alvescot' if we did we'd turn well inside that village as we don't need quite so much runway as you did.

[Uncle Ginsters]

The nav claimed he had not slept at all due to the noise and IIRC had, as a result of his fatigue, made a simple but important error

I'm Sorry Brian, but your argument makes no sense to me :confused:

You argue, quite correctly, the value to aircrew of being properly rested and fatigue-free.

We don't have the luxury with 'Afghan war or not' of leaving our assets on the ground overnight doing nothing - aviation business is a 24hr one, either engineering or flying.

If engine-runs and any other rects for that matter can only occur during daylight hours, then you will confine aircrew duty hours to flying through the night and hence be a greater risk to flight safety as you yourself highlight!
(incidentally, a large proportion of flying is already at night and has been highlighted as one of our greatest risk factors in current ops)

What would you prefer??? :ugh:

Any sensible pilot doesn't go buying a house near a Fire/Ambulance Stn or Blasting Quarry...i'd suggest others who value a fatigue-free life are equally sensible!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Ken,

I suspect that in days gone by someone has either failed to make the cut for Albert or an Albert crew member has had a one time "intimate knowledge" moment with a close family member, not much else would explain the continual Conwayesque whine when ever Albert enters the conversation :ok:

[cazatou]

Brian 48Nav

If I recall correctly the Navigator on the VC10 decided to use a non standard Navigation technique for the crossing - ignoring the requirement for 2 navigators when using that technique which required maintaining a constant Magnetic Heading whilst adjusting the Variation to alter Course. He also neglected to inform the Aircraft Captain of his intentions.

Unfortunately, the Navigator applied the Variation changes the wrong way and the aircraft changed course to Starboard at the almost imperceptible rate of approx 2 degrees per minute.

When eventually located by US Air Defence Radar they were several hundred miles off course over Greenland heading roughly NNE - still turning right.

[BEagle]

Brian 48nav, yes, 'cold war' is frequently used these days as a sneering description of those who flew in the 70s and 80s, it seems....:rolleyes:

Leaving aside Ken Scott's irrelevant personal insults, I have to ask why the C130 visual circuit has to be any tighter than the VC10/TriStar visual circuit? Of course because it's slower and can use larger angles of bank in the circuit, it can fly tighter circuits more comfortably than can a VC10 or TriStar. But just because it can doesn't necessarily mean it should.

Maybe Lyneham should be available by NOTAM as an RLG for C130s, with just a local controller and crash/rescue crew? Or would that be politically unacceptable?

The jet circuit at Brize was always a compromise between training needs and noise; it used to be much busier in the 1980s than it is now; we also flew low level circuits until they were banned in about 1985.

(Incidentally, PTS departures are usually from the intersection, so low level turns over Alvescot were certainly noted on many occasions. But that's water under the bridge.)

The VC10/Greenland saga is still available on line if you look hard enough - and is a classic example of poor CRM from getting out of bed onwards!

[cazatou]

Brian 48Nav

If you search the web you should be able to find the Air Clues article(s) regarding that flight and the subsequent BOI. I had a copy of the Air Clues article on the wall of my Office at HQ 1 Gp.

As for spending long weekends in the Carribean in the late '60s - I was spending 6 to 8 weeks at a time out there!! The Hotel was only 3* but it was right next to beach.

[Willard Whyte]

The crew left the bar early because they had to make an early start next day but the navigator had some difficulty in getting off to sleep because a 'beat group' was making a loud noise in another Mess nearby.

Wonderful!

Incidents and Accidents (http://www.vc10.net/History/incidents_and_accidents.html#Navigation_error_over_the_North _Atlantic)

[izod tester]

When I first arrived at Lyneham in 1967 - before the bund was built - I remember being disturbed for the first few nights by Hercules ground running. After the first week, they didn't bother me at all. Since I was on shifts I also had to get used to the noise during the day too. My room in the mess was about 100 yards from and facing the Calne Strip and didn't have double glazing.

In those days, jet/aircraft noise was considered the sound of freedom.

[Jabba_TG12]

"To assert that people near Brize have had 8 years to move away is complete tosh! This move may have been cancelled at any time over that period!"

Indeed Brian.

"May" being the operative word. But it wasnt, was it? :hmm:

If thats how you're meant to plan the one most important purchase of your life, not taking into account all the known local variables - hoping that something that is planned to happen may not happen - be it the Brize move, building on local flood plains, etc etc - and how they might impact on you, then on you go, thats how situations like this happen.

You see whats going to happen, you ask yourself how could this affect me and mine, can I put up with it? If yes, how to minimise the impact? If no, and the odds on are that you cant stand it, then how to get away? Or, if you're really lucky and you're all organised locally, how do we go about trying to stop "it" from happening, if we can?

Eitherway, 8 years is a long enough time to see which way the wind is blowing, economically and in this case politically and militarily. More than enough.

At least the locals are likely to see a lot of other tangible benefits - a possible increase in local employment opportunities, keeping a few more of the otherwise local unemployables off the dole, plus the usual opportunities for local entrepreneurs - takeaways, minicab firms, cleaning firms and all the other attendant small businesses you usually find in reasonably close proximity to an RAF unit of any kind - in return for paying the price of having a busy airfield carrying out some night ground runs during this period of busy military activity whilst there are conflicts going on around the world that British forces are involved in.

Then think about the bloody rest of us 30 miles east of you, along the prospective route of that blasted £20bn+ HS2 vanity project, which is likely to carry on all day and night whether theres a war on or not, where we along the route will see sod all in the way of benefits of any kind, let alone any tangible ones, for having a high speed railway line that nobody wants, on an embankment running within 800 metres of your front door.

Try the prospect of sleeping between 12 hour nightshifts with that going on added to a 100 mile commute every day to get to and from work and then tell me you're hard done by, in comparison.

Like them, using the above example, going forward, I have to make a judgement call. What is the potential impact on me and my family and my sanity and my work, should the project go ahead. Can I put up with it, or do I have to sell the house, quite possibly at a loss, and move somewhere else? And the answer is at the moment, I'm not sure.

I do know one thing for a fact though.

If I sit on my khyber for the next 7 or 8 years, hoping it'll go away and the damn thing gets built anyway and I've done nothing, then the only person I'll be able to blame for the end results is myself.:mad:

[WE992]

Maybe Lyneham should be available by NOTAM as an RLG for C130s, with just a local controller and crash/rescue crew? Or would that be politically unacceptable?

Unacceptable or what it scheduled to happen in September for a week!

[Runaway Gun]

Maybe you should shut up then.

[BEagle]

That's rather a terse response to a reasoanable post, Runaway Gun.

Regrettably, an attitude becoming rather prevalent these days...:(

[Runaway Gun]

Sorry Beagle, I forgot to incluse a smiley face.

But seriously, when someone complains about us doing an important job, in spite of massive budget cuts and minimal public support, and then write a short essay how they did things different flying Noah's Ark when they were a lad - it kind of reeks of a lack of understanding, and I take it as an insult.

[Ken Scott]

Leaving aside Ken Scott's irrelevant personal insults

I merely said that I found your atitude surprising. Whereas your post was full of anecdotes purporting to show the C130 Force in a poor light, indeed as a bunch of cowboys.

[Ken Scott]

I have to ask why the C130 visual circuit has to be any tighter than the VC10/TriStar visual circuit? Of course because it's slower and can use larger angles of bank in the circuit, it can fly tighter circuits more comfortably than can a VC10 or TriStar.

Perhaps it's just a question of ''new boys' conforming carefully with existing requirements


The C130 flies a rate one turn (about 22 degs) in the circuit, which gives a downwind spacing of about 1.5nm. We could fly wider circuits by using less bank but to what purpose? Just to be the same as a Tristar/ VC10?

The second quote epitomises your attitude which seems to be that the C130s will conform to the working practices at Brize. This isn't school where the new boys have to learn the ropes from the old lags. This is an opportunity for the Brize squadrons to learn 'best practice' from the C130s, and vice versa too. There are many things we can teach each other - it's not just a matter of the C130s being absorbed.

[Runaway Gun]

Sorry Brian, I guess after having to do more with less then eventually something will snap. Call it stretch but not overstretch.. It was my turn this week.

We have a job to do, doing more with less, and then hear the opinion that the job is not justified.

It sort of reminds me of Jack Nicholson's gripe in a Few Good Men, where he's tasked with protecting the country, and then the country dares to make him justify how he provides that safety.

Think I better have some milk and a lie down ;)

[Toddington Ted]

Don't worry, HS2 will not get built, its too expensive. We need more rail capacity, not more speed. Much more likely that the Fairford Branch will get rebuilt! The Oxford-Worcester line is already being redoubled. Sod all to do with RAF Brize Norton, except that it once had 2 railway stations (Brize Norton & Bampton and Carterton). Must stop thread drift....too late.

[mayorofgander]

Hi Gang;

I live on what used to be the ILS base turn for 24 (previously 25) at EGDL....so that makes me a Swine-Don dweller....Damn, I actually MISS the noise!!!!

It does make the odd aircraft that flies over more noticeable, rather than when the C130s were incessantly in the instrument pattern.

The drive to work is now 35 mins instead of 30...... I reckon I chose my dwelling rather wisely.

Or should I just delete all of the above....

Later...MoG:ok:

[jamesdevice]

"when I was commuting 100 miles each way from Bourton in Dorset to LHR Tower"
anyone who commutes that far has more money than sense
And its BECAUSE of people doing that kind of thing that the A303 had to be upgraded. If you - and your fellow polluters - had not chosen to move to where you did, then the noisy road you complain of would never have been built

[BEagle]

(Brian 48nav - as one who has travelled the A303 since before the Andover bypass was built (no, not by stagecoach!), I agree that the road has been improved somewhat since the early 1970s. The joys of chugging along through Sparkford, Wincanton, Mere, Wylye, Amesbury, Andover to the A30, then the Basingstoke by-pass, Hook and Hartley Wintney, Bagshot and past Blackbushe airport to Camberley, Bagshot, past Virginia Water, then the Egham and Staines by-passes and finally to London Airport - it took about 3 hrs from home to LAP, whereas now it would be nearer 2 if the roads weren't so crowded.... But there was usually some flying to be seen at Thruxton, RAF Andover and Blackbushe! However, the 303 will never be the main road to the south-west until someone has the guts to sort out how to bypass Stonehenge - and to dual the road from the A345 roundabout to the Mere by-pass and from the Hazelgrove roundabout to the M5 at Exeter! Really it should be motorway standard all the way from the M3. Sadly, the tree-huggers block any attempts to improve Britain's roads though - as witness the dreadful A40 from the M5 at Cheltenham to the M40 at Oxford which by now should be at least a dual carriageway, if not a motorway.)

As regards the cost of housing near Brize, it is true that the local rental market has been grossly distorted by MoD's failure to provide sufficient on-base housing. The pre-fabs which were supposed to have a 10 year life in 1965-ish are still there and the housing programme won't be complete for at least 5 years. So rental prices have risen by 30% in some sectors; fine for the local Rachmans, but causing great problems for the less well-off hereabouts.

No matter what Uncle Norm might say, improving Carterton is a bit like deciding to protect the virtue of Joan Collins - a great idea but about 60 years too late! Still, the Cartoontown inmates will soon be getting such top quality supermarkets as Morrisons and Aldi...:rolleyes: Which should improve things for victims of the shotgun wedding between Lyneham and Brize a little.

[Capt Niff Naff]

Trying to doze off and I'm sure I can hear the creaking of wood on wood from here!:zzz:
CNN

[Jabba_TG12]

Very gracious of you Brian, I will do likewise.

[NURSE]

I note you've made the Mail on Sunday

'Chipping Norton Set' tell RAF: Your war games are ruining our beauty sleep | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023176/Chipping-Norton-Set-tell-RAF-Your-war-games-ruining-beauty-sleep.html)

[StopStart]

Well that's another piece of splendidly spittle-flecked journalism from The Daily Little Britain. Chipping Norton being disturbed eh? I can sympathise - I live west of Swindon and the noise from that bladdy 'eathrow airpor' is doin my 'ead in! Ridiculous garbage.

Daily Mail. By morons for morons.

[TMK1]

Classic bit of poor reporting. This was an old story from the residents around Carterton that has been put with the "chipping norton set" story. I live up that way and only see hercs very infrequently. Chippy is 20 miles from Brize.

[Willard Whyte]

Daily Mail. By morons for morons. First off there is nothing in that article that suggests the Mail is taking sides.

Secondly it states 'Chipping Norton Set', not 'Residents of Chipping Norton'. There is a difference, 'Chipping Norton Set' is a figure of speech, 'Residents of Chipping Norton' would be specific but was not used.

'Chipping Norton Set' merely refers here, perhaps, to well-off 'townies' who move to the country and then often complain about activities that have taken place in the environs for some considerable time prior to their arrival. Or, it could refer to those self-important individuals who believe their life-long residency in, an often picturesque, village gives them some sort of superiority of opinion (think WI on steroids, if you will, or perhaps the local Mary Whitehouse-esque member of the parish council). It would be appropriate, for example, to refer to Gordon Sumner as 'Chipping Norton Set', even though he does not live anywhere near the place. It refers to a mindset, not a geographical location. It is typified by, although by no means exclusive to, the somewhat stereotypical resident of Chipping Norton, to-wit Clarkson et al. Although of course it maybe somewhat ironic to include Clarkson as he is generally pretty 'onside' when it comes to H.M. Armed Forces.

Too many people have this knee-jerk reaction to anything written in the Mail. To me it says more of them than the paper.

No, I neither work for nor read the Mail.

[VinRouge]

Sorry, anyone trying to provide defence for the daily mail needs their heads feeling...

Check out the below article.

The Daily Mail list of 'Things that give you cancer' - hellokinsella's posterous (http://hellokinsella.posterous.com/the-daily-mail-list-of-things-that-give-you-c)

trash newspaper only just beaten by the likes of the sport.

[Bill Macgillivray]

As a geriatric reader of many newspapers I would not hold the Daily Mail in any more contempt than any other newspaper ! The only difference is (sometimes) in the grammar that is used and the accuracy(?) of the reporting. We have reached a stage where, I suggest, the press are about to lose all credibility with intelligent people !:ugh::ugh:

[Really annoyed]

some people are almost suicidal.

I bet the Samaritans have been busy then. I guess they have to shout down the telephone to be heard though.

Base chiefs have scheduled meetings with residents to try to defuse the situation.

Meetings with local Estate Agents that is.

I think it is a very clever ploy by the Station Commander at Brize Norton to drag the local housing market down to a level where the RAF can buy up all the houses to ease the problems they have. Very clever.

[Willard Whyte]

VR, I expected nothing else of the retarded 'logic' one sees here.

[overun]

The problem THEY have ? The RAF.
Are you mad ? We have herberts in east London putting up posters declaring Sharia Law rules in those areas and apparently normal people here are disassociating themselves from OUR armed forces.
Plainly going down the pan as a country, could you imagine what the 1940`s residents of the south and east coasts would have to say ?
ln 2002 l watched a black B52 returning soon after dawn as l was driving by and thought "thankyou".
Politics, like estate agency, is occupied predominantly by self serving greedy b*stards, OUR armed forces are not.
They should be given what they need, and then some.
l`ve never been a member of our armed forces, just one of the tax payers.

[Roadster280]

Overun - :D:D:D

[Always a Sapper]

overun

Sadly until HMG say 'go' and to be honest there's not much chance of that, as much as we would like to take action there's really not a lot we can do. :uhoh:

Can't really see the 'PC' brigade being on side if the QRF Btn went in to deal with it or a few 'Apaches' got lost on the way to the ranges and brassed up the local area.

As for a neat bit of carpet bombing.. as tempting as it is, I think some one would whing and then there's the cost, we just cant afford the munitions now, we spent all the spare cash on moving and closing a perfectly good airbase :rolleyes:

Now, in one of the great traditions of HM's forces there is one thing we can do, and do well. And that's whinge... quite often it's about something thats perfectly sensible while other times it'll be about something that makes Blackadder look like a normal sane person but either way whinge we will do, it can be between Arms, different units or individuals, sometimes it can get quite nasty but at the end of the day it's 'our' whinge and we like it :ok:

The thing is though, when someone butts in and really upsets the 'Boss, sat in her wee house in London' we all forget our little differences, the alert state leaps up to 'a bit miffed' and we put all that attention on the new target in town... :E

[Really annoyed]

Whing?????:confused: I prefer a good whinge myself. But if you prefer to whing you carry on.

[30AB-JK]

Having grown up 'On the Patch' on a lot of the Heavy Bomber Stations, I don't see what all the fuss is about! I seem to remember living close to 35's Dispersal and experiencing the roar and vibrations of High Power Runs and the scream asymmetric GA's on a regular basis. It didn't seem to effect us kid's getting up for school the next day. Admittedly times, they have a changed - or maybe, we were/are made of stronger stuff. That said, the crackle of a 'South-side Tanker' heavy on a Sunday morning can be an intrusion when you've trying to read the papers in Toon- town

I'm sure Beags will comment http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

[BEagle]

Well, yes. At Sunny Scampton, Foxtrot dispersal was very close to the AMQ:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Foxtrot.jpg

Hence a 93% cross-feed start on bays 24 or 25 would certainly have been noticed. Double asymmetric overshoots were not permitted at night though, except by OCU QFIs.

That said, the crackle of a 'South-side Tanker' heavy on a Sunday morning can be an intrusion when you've trying to read the papers in Toon- town

On 17 June 1986, we scrambled in a max weight VC10K3 early in the morning. It was just within limits for a full power take-off from RW08, but it had been a hot, airless night and all the locals had slept with their windows open....

We'd recently had a 'bit of a word' from the fun-detectors for early turns at low level; in those days the SOP for an air defence scramble was to turn on course to Wallasey at 500ft, but many of us didn't wait that long. We also cleaned up at 1500ft rather than 3000ft for an AD scramble.

On this occasion, the pilot flying was OC101. Determined to set a good example, he diligently maintained heading until reaching 500ft. But rather than climbing at V2+20, he'd decided to accelerate immediately to MFR (210KIAS), hence we had a very shallow climb angle. When we eventually staggered up to 500ft, he turned overhead Thorney Leys and the West Witney estate still with full power applied.....then called for flap in and accelerated to 290KIAS for the climb before reducing to climb thrust.

A mate who lived in Thorney Leys said the noise was utterly indescribable - his wife thought our jet was going to hit their roof. A sentiment shared by most of Witney, because the Radio Oxford switchboard was jammed with complaints.

Being the Boss, no poo came down upon we lower mortals. But I do recall thinking "WTF is he playing at?" as I saw the roofs of the West Witney estate flashing past.

Worst of all it was a 7:00 trip and we didn't get a single Bear. But he did at least give me the landing!

[overun]

Always a sapper.

What are you on ? l don`t have a clue what you are talking about. Apart from the bit about "butting in" of course.
Nobody, plainly, has spoken to you about biting the hand that feeds you.
A shame really because it would seem to be overdue.

feel free to imagine whichever little funny face turns you on.

[Really annoyed]

It's okay because he has corrected his spelling of whinge now.:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

We'd recently had a 'bit of a word' from the fun-detectors for early turns at low level; in those days the SOP for an air defence scramble was to turn on course to Wallasey at 500ft, but many of us didn't wait that long. We also cleaned up at 1500ft rather than 3000ft for an AD scramble.

Flouting rules and regs in this manner, bloody cowboys :=

[overun]

Absolutely right.
Please remind me of the rules and regs of the bad guys, that must run into paragraphs, surely ?
l`m easy with this stuff, it`s going to take five years before anyone really knows what`s lost and no way back. Nato Standard really.

[Grabbers]

How did the repatriation ceremony go this afternoon? BBC News reporting live from Carterton Memorial Garden. Looks busy.

[SOSL]

"his wife thought our jet was going to hit their roof." She needn't have worried, unless they'd left their landing light on!

[November4]

How did the repatriation ceremony go this afternoon? BBC News reporting live from Carterton Memorial Garden. Looks busy.

BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-14833491)

[Ken Scott]

I was in the Tescos in Lyneham the other day in flying suit getting some lunch before driving back to Brize when a lady came up to me and said 'We miss the aeroplanes'!

A bit of a contrast to the attitude of the residents of Oxfordshire?

[brakedwell]

I was in the Tescos in Lyneham the other day in flying suit getting some lunch before driving back to Brize when a lady came up to me and said 'We miss the aeroplanes'!

A bit of a contrast to the attitude of the residents of Oxfordshire?

The residents of Oxfordshire use Waitrose and they don't talk to strange men in flying suits :)

[Willard Whyte]

Thought they townies got an organic box (bought from Lidl with the wrapping removed and a bit of soil rubbed in) delivered by a bloke on a bicycle (transit parked 'round the corner) every week.

[cazatou]

Ra

He has corrected the spelling to the Scottish Spelling.

The Old English Spelling would be -"wheenge".

I thought you would be an expert on that word.