Where are the AME apprentices?

[Torres]

It appears less and less apprentices are attracted to AME trades, which must create an even greater skilled labour crisis in GA aircraft maintenance in the future.

I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice, age no barrier, in Central Queensland and no applicants. Zip, zilch, no interest at all.

Most trades are experiencing critical skills shortages, but if there are dimminishing numbers of apprentices entering aeroskills trades it will be impossible to keep Australia's aging aircraft flying in the future.

[Mike Litoris]

It is not only aeroskills trades, it is elsewhere too. I work in a trade, non-aviation, and we too have a skills shortage. I also have a quite a lot of friends and associates from a broad range of trade areas, and they too have a skills shortage.


I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice

Have you thought about advertising for, and taking on, a 1st year apprentice?

So many people in various trades want to hire 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices.
Why? thats easy, because they are productive now, and the business owner can charge for the work they produce now.

Problem: A 1st year apprentice takes time (and therefore money) to teach them the skills of the trade to a point where they produce chargable work.

Reason 1: A lot (not all, but a lot) of kids out of school lack initiative, heck, they even need to be told "If you're not busy, at least make it look like you're busy. Pick up a broom and sweep a clean floor if you have nothing else to do". They need someone to "hold their hand" whilst they learn (at least for the 1st year)

Reason 2: By the time these people develop this initiative, and be more useful (if not chargable) around the workplace, they are over 21 and need to be paid an adult wage, which costs the owner of the business more.


So, as to the trade shortage, who is at fault?
Is it that people no longer want to work in a trade area?
Or
Is it that business owners no longer wish to hire 1st year apprentices? (they just want to poach them from other businesses who have given them their initial start)

I believe that in a majority of cases that it is the later. Business owners need to deal with the either Reason 1, or Reason 2.

Again, Have you thought about taking on a 1st year apprentice?

Just remember, you were at some stage either someones Reason 1, or their Reason 2.

Mike

[Torres]

Mike

I hear you loud and clear. No one is more aware of the trade skills shortage or trying to address the problem than me.

I already employ 149 full time apprentices; 15 part time apprentices; 32 School Based apprentices and 111 trainees.

There are already full time first year apprentices in the work place. The work place is unable to efficiently provide effective trade supervision for a further first year apprentice.

On this occasion I am seeking a 2nd to 4th Year Aeroskills apprentice and appalled at the lack of interest and long term impact on Australia's capacity and ability to maintain its current aircraft fleet.

"...they are over 21 and need to be paid an adult wage..."

It may surprise you that the greatest growth sector in new Australian apprenticeships is in mature age Apprenticeships. Most trade employers are now paying over Award payments to apprentices; they recognise that apprentice wages are an investment in the future prosperity of their own business.

You probably missed Reason 3: The national cancelation rate of first year apprentices is around 60% to 70% and diminishes as the apprentice progresses through 2nd, 3rd and 4th year. Many employers are exascerbated with the lack of committment in todays Gen Y.

[VH-XXX]

It's hard to pull a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice from anywhere; regardless of trade. Apprentices often like to stick with their original employer unless they are unhappy and without a large increase in salary and a desire to move to CQ I can see that many might not be interested. Understood that it's difficult to lose the apprentice when the shoe is on the other foot too.

[Mike Litoris]

Reason 3: The national cancelation rate of first year apprentices is around 60% to 70% and diminishes as the apprentice progresses through 2nd, 3rd and 4th year.
Obviously with 307 apprentices/trainees on your books, you know more about the trade skills shortage and apprenticeship cancellations than I do.

Many employers are exascerbated with the lack of committment in todays Gen Y.

Yes I agree with you there. However, in my experience, those who lose apprentices in the 1st year or two, tend to be those employers who treat the newbies as slave labour and dont teach them the trade... if employers do the right thing by their employees, then the employees do the right thing by their employers. This is the case with not only apprenticeships, but all forms of employment. Greed from either side destroys employment relationships.

[Torres]

Yes Mike, you are correct. But the tide is turning and those employers not committed to trade training and acceptable practices are unable to attract apprentice and qualified trade labour.

Our cancellation rate is still around 37% with the usual reasons for cancellation being:
"My girl friend is leaving town....",
"I want to go to the Mines....",
"My mates are all now in Brisbane....",
"The work is too hard......",
"I have a job on better money and flex hours at McDonalds/KFC/etc....."

There are many problems in our apprenticeship system, none more acute than here in rural Australia.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Why would you want to become an aircraft engineer anyway?

Normally anti-sociable hours, poor money to start with, hours of study for different licences, responsibility of signing of work on something that will carry pasengers in a hostile environment, being told to do dodgy repairs, putting up with dim witted aircraft owners that want everything done at mates rates but will take his Mercedes/BMW to the local dealership and pay $100 plus for labour.

And you wonder why people go and work in mines.

[Blackhander wannabe]

What about the flood of students through the training institutes? Are they still as useless as the off the street 1st years?

[Splitpin44]

Yep exactly what Charlie said.

When I have kids there is no f :mad:ing way I'm going to let them go anywhere near an aircraft trade. Especially now the new dodgy B1/B2 system is here.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Aircraft engineers are the most underpaid more buggers in the world, in my humble opinion, especially with CASA breathing down your neck and the the Australian legal system.

[717tech]

Have you tried making your company known at Aviation Australia? Quite a few of the apprentices I have worked with completed a pre vocational course there to better their chances at an apprenticeship....

[blackhand]

Aircraft engineers are the most underpaid more buggers in the world, in my humble opinion, especially with CASA breathing down your neck and the the Australian legal system.

mmmm, and what evidence do you have for this spurious statement?

HP is paying in the order of AU$75,000 as base pay for dual airframe engine licence.
Helicopter engineers are being paid 80,000 to 100,000 on shore and up to 140,000 offshore on tour basis.

CASA Australia is only doing it's job, certify for the work correctly and you will be left alone.

I haven't had dealings with Aust courts over maintenance matters, what is your experience that makes you fear them?

Cheers
BH

[SideSaddle]

My question is to the original poster who seems to have enough 1st year apprentices but cant seem to be able to hire 2nd to 4th year apprentices. Why dont you train your 1st years and grow them to second, third & fourth year apprentices?

I have some experience in this area and what I am hearing is that many first year apprentices quit because of the way they are treated, especially in GA. Many GA companies hire apprentices purely as cheap labour, without really considering that they are required to train these apprentices. By the way, that's why they get paid lower wages, as they are, in a sense paying for their training. If you want to hire someone to clean up after the LAMEs and do general work around the hangar, hire a TA or hangar rat and pay the going rate, which is much more that an apprentice. While I understand and don't disagree with the concept of "paying your dues", training must still be acomplished under the tutelage of an experienced LAME. This often just does not happen, many LAMEs have the attitude of "I learned the hard way, you must too". This attitude is quite prevalent today. Business pressures also tend to push training into the category of, I just don't have time for it.

Taking on an apprentice requires a company to commit to a contract of training. Many companies forget this almost immediatly. I have had many apprentices, former apprentices and LAMEs confirm these things to me. If you are going to take on an apprentice, make sure you have the resources to do it. Identify a LAME or LAMEs who "desire" to pass on their knowledge and experience to the apprentice, dont throw them to the grumpy old farts who dont want them anyway.

I understand fully why it's hard to find 2nd to 4th year apprentices willing to join a company. If they made it past their first year and still like it they will stay where they are. If they dont stay with that company then the old line of "once bitten, twice shy" seems the appropriate reason.

As to the comment about Training institute graduates being no better than the average 1st year "off the street" apprentice, you are missing the point. These graduates have been given all the theory of a 4 year apprenticeship, but very little in the way of practical experience. While they may seem no better than the "off the street" version at first, I will venture to say that by the end of the graduates' first year of their apprenticeship, he/she is much more capable than the off the street apprentice at the end of their first year. This is because they have most of theory knowledge already and dont have to be released for training for up to 10 weeks a year, Many of the so called "traditional" apprentices came back from tech forgeting their hand skills and have missed a lot of the continuity that the hangar provides. The other obvious advantage is the company doesn't have to pay the apprentice while he/she is non productive at school. Again I constantly hear the harp of the "old fart LAME's" thats not the way I did it, so it's no good! Get over it! This is the way it's being done more and more now.

Bottom line, if you want good 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices, invest time and effort into your 1st year apprentices.

[VH-XXX]

Sidesaddle, refer to post #6 by Torres - he explains why they keep leaving.

37% is probably not that bad. Universities are probably worse and many professional white collar worker jobs are around 15-30% per year for what I do, not for 4 years, thats per year...

[Hasherucf]

HP is paying in the order of AU$75,000 as base pay for dual airframe engine licence.
Helicopter engineers are being paid 80,000 to 100,000 on shore and up to 140,000 offshore on tour basis.
I have recently worked for Hawkers and didn't get anywhere near that. Also I have seen a heavy duty plant mech 3rd apprentice on 75k a year. In the west it pays to be in mining swinging a spanner.

If I was a mining recruiter I would be down at my local airport poaching guys . Saying to them here is a job with more pay , better roster , better conditions, we feed you on site, we house you on site, little stress and no threat of litigation hanging over you.

Who are the fools here ?

[SideSaddle]

refer to post #6 by Torres - he explains why they keep leaving


VH-XXX, what Torres said is only part of the story. What many "organisations" don't understand is that they are a large part of the problem and the reason Torres gives are only the excuse given and not the only reason. Most people tend to avoid conflict and not say that they are being treated badly to the individual responsible.

I know of several cases in the last couple of years where GA operators lost their apprentices because they treated the apprentice with disdain and refused to invest in their training. The apprentice told the operator the "job is not for them" but told others the real reason. Then the operators would say when asked why the apprentice left, that they were "useless" or "unsuited" to aviation. It's like anything else you invest in, take care of them and they will earn you money. Treat them badly, you'll lose them, whether the investment be aircraft, tools or apprentices and tradesmen.

It's time many companies face reality, they are often the problem. Sorry if I've sugar coated it!

[Mike Litoris]

SideSaddle, you have hit the nail on the head!! :D

In my working career (aviation and non-aviation) I myself have worked for a number of employers, some great, some good and some bad. Funnily enough (or is that Unfortunately enough) the bosses that that have been the the biggest :mad:holes and who treat their employees (most employees, not only me), with disrespect, are those in the ga aviation sector. They, the :mad:holes, are out to make a dollar no matter who gets in their way. Crikey, they would even sell their own mothers into illegal prostitution in some third-world back water if they could make a few bucks!

That being said, some of the nicest people in the world that I have met are involved in aviation.

[blackhand]

Hasherufc
you are correct the mining industry pays well above the odds.
This is not the issue that Torres is speaking about.
The offer of 75k was from HP Cairns but was less than Ican earn as a contractor.
At this time there is a dearth of LAMEs in the regional and outback areas, good for those of us that contract in those areas.

Cheers
BH

[Connaught]

if i had it to do over again i would get a lobotomy and stay away from this business,

i counsel all i know to stay away from it

i work nights, i get no thanks or recognition for my hard work/skill and knowledge and most nights i come home dirty and stinking, i got mates who fix computers and other software types that stay clean and make more money

too bad i love what i do:confused:

[Propstop]

I am a "grumpy old fart LAME" working in Oz and the rest of the world doing contracts. While there is a shortage of LAME'S I will continue to have work offered, plus I have a work ethic which is sadly lacking in a lot of young people I have met in aviation; this includes engineers and pilots.
I have a wealth of knowlege to impart and sadly I have met very few AME'S or apprentices who wish to be a custodian of that knowlege.
The other point is that I will actively discourage anybody coming into the industry due to the fact that a LAME must be a criminal; all the penalty points written into the regulations mean that they must be so.
CASA are a joke, as are the licencing regulations; still not finished after 20+ years.
The aircraft maintenance industry is a sad shell of it's former self; I have enjoyed it but now the enjoyment is rapidly going south and now I am semi retired. This means I can pick the jobs I want and leave the rest, a luxury denied to many still in the industry due low wages and family, or other comitments.

[ellyot]

I have been trying for the past year to start my AME apprenticeship in Queensland. I was advised by many people in the industry to not bother with courses and just jump straight in to learning on the job. Which suits me much better anyway. I have since been knocked back by four joints for one reason only...I'm female. I have applied all through Queensland and have had no luck, while I appreciate the honesty, I still can't understand how my sex can be a problem :ugh:. I have been fortunate enough to have some fantastic engineers wanting to help out with Scheduled experience hours and this has helped me greatly. But all those hours (total of 3 months full time) was done out of my own time and still the company pen pushers wont give me a go. I won't be giving up, I do my own study and am trying to get through my exams. But in reality I need to be working in the industry with a mentor who wants me to suceed.

[Hasherucf]

Don't give up Ellyot .Over the last week I had a chance to be working with a 3rd year female apprentice. Gotta say that she was on top of her game . Sex has nothing to do with it , its about personal drive and ambition.

[Torres]

Sorry, been a bit busy........

Interesting comments in this thread, some correct, some the results of misunderstandings. An apprentice needs to have "the passion" and an employer must have understanding and a genuine desire to impart training and knowledge.

"....what Torres said is only part of the story..."

Yes, that is true, but I can't compress a decade of mentoring, supporting and training Australian apprentices into one short PPRuNe post...... We all have sad failures, but completing and graduating around a hundred apprentices and trainees each year makes it all worth while! :ok:

"If I was a mining recruiter I would be down at my local airport poaching guys. Saying to them here is a job with more pay, better roster, better conditions, we feed you on site, we house you on site, little stress and no threat of litigation hanging over you."

Well, not quite. The cancellation/failure rate of apprentices in the mining industry is no better than in other industries, despite the additional mentoring and support they often receive. Not all apprentices can hack the cyclic roster, living on site, generally ten hour days, seven days per week of two week on, two week off rosters.

"I have since been knocked back by four joints for one reason only...I'm female."

I think you were very fortunate they knocked you back. If that is their attitude, they don't deserve you.

I have female apprentices in many trades including building and mechanical. Most show great dedication, excellent progress and complete early to become excellent trades people.

[osmosis]

Ellyot, in another life I worked in and around the hangars of a fairly sizable operation where dozens were employed maintaining various g.a. and s.a.l. a/c. It was rural oz not capital city and it was many years ago. On occasions I worked beside one young female apprentice AME. She was a pleasure to work with and very thorough and didn't mind getting her hands dirty.

...I have written but then deleted some lengthy text on her treatment within her workplace; I had begun to rant. Long story short this poor young woman was leaned on, harrassed, abused, the subject of all possible verbal assaults until she could tolerate it no more...

Torres has good advice, it's a numbers game unless you have strong recommendations. Those who turned you away are no place for you; the very last thing you want is to be accepted by these people and then later resented. If they knock you back, turn and walk away.

Your time will come but you'll have to persist.

[fruitloop]

ellyot
Hang in there..!! Get your Basics (while you have time)and Don't rely on the B1/B2 stuff provided by Tafe's etc etc..Most employers prefer to see some-one who steps forward and uses their own inititive to get the ball rolling..
Rant over

[Torres]

Long story short this poor young woman was leaned on, harrassed, abused, the subject of all possible verbal assaults until she could tolerate it no more...

I am aware this may occur in a very small minority of workplaces but fortunately, appalling practices of that nature are coming to an end. Where that does occur, it is the result of exceedingly poor management and is generally reflected in the abysmal quality of the service product they sell.

I do not tollerate harrassment, bullying, abuse or gender inequality in respect to the apprentices I employ. Equally, I expect apprentices to be committed to training, their trade and harmony and prosperity in the workplace.

".... s.a.l. a/c ...." You must be old school - I haven't heard that term for over 20 years! :D

"SAL" - Supplementary Airline License or Reg 203 Services - were scheduled air services, generally operated by aircraft less than 12,500 pounds MTOW, under an Exemption to ANR203. They operated prior to September 1988, the last time Australia had a complete working set of sane civil aviation regulations. :ok:

Why 12,500 pounds limit? Because it was half the max TO weight of a Douglas DC3, the "standard" airline aircraft in 1948.

[osmosis]

Not THAT friggin' old but old enough to have worked in those times.

[SideSaddle]

Get your Basics (while you have time)and Don't rely on the B1/B2 stuff provided by Tafe's etc etc..Most employers prefer to see some-one who steps forward and uses their own inititive to get the ball rolling..


This is the attitude that needs to change! Basics are all but dead. Come Monday 27/06, if you haven't already begun your basics you will not be able to start. If you have started you have only a short window to complete it and still come out with a restricted licence. The B1/B2 is what is the "normal" way of gaining a licence in Australia now. Like it or not, agree with it or not, it is the law. Forget the past, it wont help to comiserate about it, in other words GET OVER IT!:ugh:

As for the lady getting an apprenticeship, what better initiative can she show than to get all her apprenticeship theory out of the way first so that when you do get the apprenticeship, you dont lose any work time by going away to school.

I have heard so much S#!+ about how terrible the new system is from so many LAMEs and employers (GA mostly). If they would spend all that energy on learning how it works, what advantages it has and learn to make it work for them instead of whinging ceaselesly about it, they might find that it's not so bad.

Nobody likes change, but that's life, get on with it.:ok:

[Lichtenstein]

As a student who is currently studying at Aviation Australia, just so that I can get the theory out of the way, to make myself look like a better investment. However being entirely new in this profession and noone in my family or friends, know much about how to get into this field. I have tried career search engines and the like, but we never seem to find many GA companies, if any at all. Is there a way that I do not know about, to find these openings?

[Connaught]

Sidesaddle

i agree, adapt or move on the b1/b2 system is the way of the future, like it or not, - remember the rest of the western world has been using it for around 20 years - time for Australia to come into the light - and speaking from experience the part 66/145/147 etc system as a whole works well

and Lichtenstein

to be completely honest, almost all of my jobs in this business i have gotten by walking into a hangar and saying ' hi my name is bill, and i am looking for work, have you got any????' and then get a number and check back once a month or so (not every day that annoys the crap outa people)

in fact most ppl i talk to have gotten jobs this way

but, back to my previous post

RUN AWAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY, RUN AWAAAAAAAAAYYYYY , don't make eye contact, avert your eyes....... quickly step back from the aviation business

:E

[Ozadski]

I am assuming (and hoping) that age is no barrier in this industry?

[Torres]

Can't be - I've seen a lot of very old engineers........ :E

You can commence an Australian Apprenticeship up to 59 years of age.

[Ozadski]

Nice to hear. I am currently qualified in another trade area (Refrigeration, AC, building management) and am looking into an AME career. I did complete my original apprenticeship in 2.5 years, with credits etc.

[jas24zzk]

Ozadski,
There are actually a number of trades listed as having "Skills Shortages"
If listed, there are a number of government incentives offered, depending on state.

E.g I had a mature age apprentice on for some time, I got (fed) money for employing him, a fortnightly subsidy for his wage (fed... 150pw for first year, 100 for second) , he got 800 tool (fed) at the end of his first 3 months, an extra 800 at the start of his final year), then he got 6 monthly wage top ups of about 500 (state...vic), and 100% reimbursement for school fees (state) (If I paid it, i got a tax break that was worth less than the fee's). Workcover (vic) is also paid by the Gov.

So its not all bad for an employer/MA Apprentice.

------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the high drop out rate of 1st year apprentices, I blame our Education system. Sure there are some crud employers out there, and the money isn't great, but it is a lot better than the dole now (well for a 16-18 yo with no kids). The problem I have found with 1st years, is that they have zero to little practical hands on skills. The abolition of Tech Schools here in Vic saw to it that the kids that were never going to make it in Uni received no experience in trade orientated subjects. This situation looks to change soon, but not soon enough. I've had 4 out of 5 first years leave to pursue other trades, and the only reason I have the one I do now, is that he grew up playing with cars alongside his dad mechanic, and he decided he hated oil.

I had the oppurtunity to take up a cabinet making app when I left school, but without the tech school experience I wouldn't have known that my timber skills were limited to making firewood.

When tech schools return, we'll see the retention rates on apprentices improve.

Cheers
Jas


edit...Ozadski, you might like to research something here, if you can find/print/comprehend the info, then you will have something to aid a prospective employer in your favour :)

linky... Skill Shortage Lists (http://www.deewr.gov.au/employment/lmi/skillshortages/pages/skillshortagelists.aspx)

[Ozadski]

Jas,

Thanks for the info. I know of that list you referred to. My current position is also on it!

As for the money, I anticipated it to be a lot less then what I am currently remunerated, and less perks, but I expect that. This change is more about lifestyle. I currently find what I am doing not as challenging as it once was. I'm not implying that I am not capable, just a little sick of it.

I also grew up around fixing mechanical things (dad was a hands on Mech eng, and an ex RAF pilot), from cars, boats, electronics etc. I went into my current trade, as I originally found it challenging, and it pays well.

There are a few reasons for wanting a career change, which I won't bore you with now. Well ok one.... I hate being a part changer. I have to know why something has failed, and rectify it. Cause and effect.

I digress. Thanks for the info, I'll have a snoop around here.

Regards
Adski

[Worrals in the wilds]

As for the high drop out rate of 1st year apprentices, I blame our Education system. Ain't that the truth. A good friend of mine is an experienced high school teacher (11/12) and dispairs of many of the kids she teaches. We were talking about a particularly troublesome group of kids with 'behavioural issues' that she was sub teaching, and she believes that a big part of the 'behavioural' epidemic is that many kids who act up are simply not interested in the 11/12 syllabus (needless to say, the 'behavioural issues' ceased about twelve minutes after she took the class on and no wonder. She scares the crap out of me and we're friends :eek:, but modern teaching standards are another rant for another time:}).

Her theory is that a lot of kids shouldn't be doing Senior as they have no interest in and no aptitude for that level of book learning, but should be out learning how to do the practical things they enjoy and are good at, rather than wasting her time and their own. Your theory sheds a different light on the same problem, because it appears that many students are wasting valuable time struggling through B-grade literary criticism when they could be learning how to fix stuff and then become more useful apprentices. Basically nobody wins, least of all the kids. Of course the education system isn't producing kids fit for tertiary study either and the unis are having to pick up the slack in first year courses, but that's yet another rant. :}

As for the wannabe AMEs, maybe they're reading the stuff in DG Reporting Points and thinking twice. :(

[tinpis]

Filipinas? :hmm:

[Long Bay Mauler]

I think the next generation will come from India. That's my prediction.

The government has signed an agreement to allow 40000+ workers to come to Australia to fill the skills shortage in Australia left by the mining boom.

Expect to see lots of chaps in GA as AMEs wanting to turn a spanner if it means the opportunity to earn more than home,and the possibility of a residency visa in the future.

This is quickly becoming a profession for people from 3rd world countries with only a smattering of locals taking up an apprenticeship in Australia.

[jas24zzk]

Bug a Lugs..
that is a crock!

I actually work in an industry outside of aviation. My outside looking in view of the aviation trades sector, is that it is one of the healthiest in the country. My industry is automotive body.

At current the auto body industry employs .0003 of an apprentice per workshop. How does that compare to the aviation industry? It is probably very close to 1 per workshop.

Barring a few operators, the aviation industry has a better mindset for training new people than the auto industry does.

I personally would employ at least 2 more apprentices, but i don't have the tradesmen to cover them.

As i stated earlier, it is a 2 fold problem..............begining with the education system and ending with prospective employers


Cheers
Jas

[Long Bay Mauler]

Well Jas,where do you think the future is coming from,because there doesn't seem to be too many wanting to take up an apprenticeship?

Its understandable as many young locally based people who would normally be interested in a mechanical/electrical based trade, can earn more in their first few years out of school working for Telstra or Dick Smith,and you don't get dirty,work reasonable hours. Or they head to Uni.

Jet Airways and other Indian operators are training young guys, who after a few years are upping sticks and heading overseas for better wages & conditions than they will enjoy in India.

[TuTTuRuu]

Are there really that many places looking to take on apprentices at the moment? I've taken the pre-vocational route and completed the course 2-3 months ago and would have thought employers would be getting in contact with the school to find suitable apprentices. The school was at least able to find me and the other students some work experience.

I kept an eye on the paper and checked job sites frequently during the course but it seems apprenticeships are rarely advertised this way. There don't appear to be any jobs locally and I've also tried following up on various contacts people have given me. If there really are jobs out there they're certainly hard to find.

[blackhand]

@ TuTTuRuu
Where have you been looking for work?
Workshops in FNQ are having trouble getting young uns to come and stay longer than a few months.
There is work available Mt Isa, Townsville and Mareeba that I know of.
The industry runs on word of mouth, both for getting jobs and for destroying your career.

Cheers
BH

[TuTTuRuu]

Mostly around south east QLD though I realise I'm competing with all of the other students coming out of Aviation Australia etc. Not hearing much from the other major cities down south so I will be looking north next. It's good to know there may be some opportunities up that way.

[Me_3]

The company I work for contacted Aviation Australia about a month ago asking if they had any classes that had finished recently, and had students without jobs that were still looking.... We were told they all either had jobs or were not interested in working in aviation..

We are in Far North QLD, and may still be looking.. PM me if your interested in details.

As blackhand has said, if your interested in coming up north, and will stick around there is plenty of work available if you get onto the right people.....

[D-J]

The school was at least able to find me and the other students some work experience.

Having recently completed a similar course in south oz, I'm surprised the school up there is having to find work experience for it's students. I would have thought it would be up to the individual student to chase up work experience with companies they would like to work for??? This is the way it worked for our course, we had students traveling from Adelaide to Darwin, Townsville, Brisbane & Melbourne.
I'm sure all the students on that course who decided to stay in the industry got jobs from the places they did their work experience, some even had multiple offers of work!

[jas24zzk]

@ Tutturuu. Sorry to say I gave up calling the schools for prospective apprentices. The result on my behalf of spending half an hour on the phone to the head's of department, is a total no response. Are these jobs even being offered to the kids???????

Maybe each trade school should be forced to employ a placement officer, that way at least when employers/apprentices enquire there is no waste of time on either party.

If I was you i'd be looking at one of those FNQ placements......if they were available when I came through the trade system I would have happily taken one up.


@ Bug-a-lugs. I think until our education system returns to teaching core trades as a subject...i.e Woodworking, Metal craft, Auto and the like, we are not going to see much change in the number of applicants for apprenticeships. The way we were taught trades at school really was just basic hand tools, and some fun projects to go with the boring stuff. It was all taught by REAL tradesman with 20+ years minimum in their field. Without this sampling I probably would have wound up in an office cubicle.

That and the fact many of our teachers have never left school doesn't help. Not such a bad thing at primary level but at secondary level where you have teachers telling you what its like in the workforce, but have never truly been there is a total crock!

As for the old apprentice wages argument.............thats also a crock......more money than they would get at uni.

Cheers
Jas

[Worrals in the wilds]

Sure, but you can do many uni courses part time and still work full time which is almost impossible with trade apprenticeships.

I realise there are massive logistical problems with part-time apprenticeships that probably make it impossible to offer them, but it's a factor when considering a mid life career change if the choices are 1. plod along with a degree part time or 2. throw in everything and go back to teenage wages for four years, which is difficult with mortgage/family etc. I know people do it and full marks to them :ok:, but it's a big call to make.

[jas24zzk]

You miss the point.
Doing uni later in life is fine once you 'grow up' What about the KIDS that uni rejects?

Dole?
Criminality?

[Worrals in the wilds]

I quite agree and stated the same thing (at length) in post #36.

[jas24zzk]

Soz worrals... i tend to reply to the last post I read, and not look back for trends.

I Disagree with your point number 2...teenage wages as an adult apprentice, based on fact.

I have had an adult apprentice.

The requirement is that you pay them the minimum ADULT wage once they are over 25 yo.

In this state, for a first year, the Government pays their school fee's, and also gives the employer a $150 wage top up, reducing by $50 per year. The state government also tops up their wage in 6 monthly payments. Added to this, if they have a family they normally qualify for the Health Care card, and associated tax breaks.

The incentives for a mature adult to enter into an apprenticeship are there. Whilst they probably fall short of what they could earn in their current field, it is not all work for nothing.

I recently employed a new painter whom is not qualified. I am paying him similar money to what I would spend on someone fully qualified. (about $3 per hour difference) In the middle of that, I have asked him to go and get his qualification. Doing so will address the weak points in his knowledge
Going down this path the guy has enough documented industry experience to reduce his apprenticeship to 12 months. The gov will pay his schooling and workcare, and also give me $150 a week towards his wages. He will also get 2x $800 tool allowance to spend on spray guns....tax free.

Realistically, I could drop his wage once he signs, but I won't do that. I need this guy for my workshop as much as he needs me to get qualified. Any employer taking on an adult apprentice will recognise that, as much as they will recognise that if they try to screw the employee, that employee's life in industry will be enough for them to counter the employer


Cheers
Jas

PS....ok who's head is going circular after that?

[whissper]

Are there still apprenticeship out there?

Who is worth talking too?

[Worrals in the wilds]

Sorry jas24kk, I didn't see your response until now. :O
Fair enough, I was basing my POV on one particular trade (electrician) so it's obviously not the case across the board.

Going down this path the guy has enough documented industry experience to reduce his apprenticeship to 12 months.

Can you speed up all apprencticeships like that?
Thanks for the info.

[jas24zzk]

Not exaxctly sure worrals, but it is certainly the case with those on the shortages list.

Jas

[Me_3]

Just a note to those who are looking for an apprenticeship:

The company I work for are one of the few in the area that takes apprentices, and as it happens, there will be an apprenticship position going in Mareeba, FNQ soon for a Mechanical Apprentice.

Give Tableland Aircraft Maintenance a call if interested: 07 40924709

[Connaught]

company i work for just hired 3 or 4 apprentii (not sure 2 on my shift at least and a couple others around the place) this is in addition to the 3rd and 4th years we already have -

the boss calls up the local TAFE here in Perth and asks for them - other than that there are a couple that have approached them from outside asking for apprenticeships

the ones that came from outside tafe picked up the phone - called reception - asked for Chief Eng, or his number and got a hold of him direct; basically did all the leg work themselves

[Hircher]

I have been calling, emailing and walking into (the local) aviation industries and I have had a few promising responses, but nothing concrete yet. I'm a mature age with family and a lot of experience behind me. I just need to talk to the right person who doesn't jump to the wrong conclusion about me and my situation. Makes it hard if they are keen but want to see how I work first (and I'm not driving distance away).
I have no doubt I will get an app, but where and when!

[James2186]

To ALL potential employers,

I am currently studying Cert IV Aeroskills at Aviation Australia (Brisbane) in the Avionics field. Due to finish December 9th 2011. Will obtain Certificate of Attainment - theory component at completion. Looking for any employer to take me on as an apprentice.

As an apprentice, my dedication and willingness to learn will be an asset to your organisation.

Please let me know if there any such vacancies.

Kind regards,

James Penton

[jas24zzk]

James,
WELCOME!!!! :ok:

My suggestion is to take some time out and have a GOOD read of this thread. (you probably have already you will tell me)

There are several people posting here that are clearly AME employers, and several of them seem to be in your area.

Search out those posts, and contact those people via PM. Do NOT expect them to chase you unless you at least do that much.

Cheers
Jas

[James2186]

Thanks for your quick reply. Yes, I have already PM'ed potential employers. Just getting my name out there as much as possible. Looks like this is a busy time for applicants!!

Cheers

James

[whissper]

Going to wish you the best James.

Don't trust Laurence or Adam as they really aren't interested in helping students. Still very bitter over the "help" I received from them two years ago.

[PJ McCarthy]

HI

My name is PJ McCarthy. I am currently living in South Africa. I have just completed my first year in Aircraft maintenence at Denel Training Academy in South Africa. I have so much touble finding employment for my next two or three years of practical training and im willing to do anything. Im a white 20 year old male.

I was shocked to find that most companies that I approuched with my CV have not even responded, even just to tell me that there is no vacansies available. This is not just in South Africa but in places like Australia, New zealand and Canada aswell.

If any one could give me some insight as to where would be a desent place to look I would appreciate it.

PJ

[aeromechanic]

I just finished my TB1aircraft maintenance course 1st 16 subjects at TAFE Broadmeadows (Aviation Australia). Paid for the course with my own money plus borrowed a bit to survive a 9 month study course without regular income. Was keen to apply for the Qantas apprenticeships and accordingly did so in September. I had high hopes and with a determined mindset I applied myself for this outcome only to find out that I now can't be accepted because I am a New Zealander. Here at TAFE they didn't realise and wished they knew before hand! Won't bother elaborating on the rest of this saga but to make a long story short, we were briefed before the course started so thought I had all me ducks in a row, 90% change of employement in the industry, to me worth the risk and to launch my midlife career change (I am 50). Now i sit here high and dry, but i am not going to give up on this dream of mine. Don't get too much help from the establishment here other than ensuring you pay your course fees obviously. I will try to get into the GA industry, something I actually love more anyway. I am in Victoria. Anyone who has a lead, I'll be overjoyed hearing from you. I know this industry is word to mouth:D

[Torres]

Looks like I have an avionics apprenticeship available, rural Queensland, 1st or 2nd year, prefer majority or all college completed.

PM for details.

[aeromechanic]

Hi Mike,

It is not easy to be at witts end as far as finding an apprenticeship or candidates therefore. i have just finished a full time Aviation Australia course at TAFE Broadmeadows and thus am keen to het into an apprenticeship. mind you, I am of the mature league ie 51 years of age.
i have been for many years in manufacturing but also privately involved with aviation I(PPL). how difficult are things going to be you reckon?
Am keen to get leads, for the record I am in Melbourne but moving not an issue.

Many thanks,

Hans :D

[aeromechanic]

Hi there,

This was good reading and I hope I will come accross with a person like you in the business. I am a muture student (51) and just completed the first full time year training at TAFE Broadmeadows (Aviation Australia).
it appears that many potential (young) apprentices leave their training as a result of a multitude of reasons, money, motivational issues, poorly treated, not given enough training and what have you. i have been at mid management level in the manufacturing industry for some 20 years and with some employers in this business, it is the same story. my last employer was the worst ever and i decided to try for a midlife career change. perhaps i should be glad that their poor conduct finally spurred me on the make the long and well over due change as i have been an aviation devotee since I can remember.
It is a week since my course finished for the year and find myself sort of in 'no mans land' and will have to do casual work as if i were an early 20's uni student, with which I have no probs with by the way. but where from here? Are there employers in GA on the look out for mature apprenticeships? Can anyone provide me with leads and general advise?
I knew it wouldn't be easy, but such is life, very few things come easy.
What one desires the most is always hardest to get unless you were so lucky to be off spring of Richard Branson, the Packer family or rather.
I am very keen, have been around in life and am not easily deterred from my goals.
keen to hear anything from anybody.

cheers,

Hans:rolleyes:

[jas24zzk]

Hans,
Have a good read of this topic. There has been plenty of mention, and the relevant links posted on governmental assistance available to prospective employers.

Arm yourself with this info. If I was you, apart from posting here looking for a job, I'd go cold calling. You really need to sell yourself.

Some attributes I'd consider working a speil on (in no particular order)

Government assistance available to the employer.
Your Maturity, and how it relates to your dedication level to your work and goal (qualification)
Your manufacturing history, and how it relates on the floor.
Have in mind as to which area of Maintenance you want to work in. No good walking into an airframe shop if you want to do avionics.........


I originally left school into an AME apprenticeship. The job wasn't advertised, and nor did it exist. I cold called. The job I eventually got, the initial response I got was that he was not interested in another apprentice, as the one before me gave him a bad experience. I told him, I wasn't that guy and he should reconsider.
I turned up exactly a week later, and asked him if he had reconsidered. He said no, but he'd think about it. So I went back the next week :O I pestered him weekly until he decided on a formal interview. I believe I was the last apprentice he ever hired.

I have found this particular area of the industry is very tough to break into...you need to be johnny on the spot when a job comes up, or like pilots in the face of perspective employers.

Good luck

Jas

[AvionicsGuy]

Hi guys,

I just finished my apprenticeship about 8 months ago,

Here are a few things i picked up along the way that might be useful too you.

1. the pay is rubbish, i cant see how a school leaver would choose $200 odd a week over a job in the mines,

2. Apprentices that excel arnt given the respect they deserve in the early years of there apprenticeship.

3. There are A LOT! of dumb :mad: kids who get picked up for apprenticeships, brains are one thing, but basic common sense and a keen attitude are all you need to get through trade school yet i see so many students fail tafe so often, 3 or 4 times on the same module even.

I know in a skill shortage you cant pick and choose who you can hire, but there needs to be some interest in kids these days.


I saw it mentioned earlier in some of the posts, but ive seen some of the brighest kids get jobs in GA but end up working for the biggest :mad:holes and leave because they get sick of being ripped off and having so much responsibility lumped on them.

And as for the wage dispute, apprentice wages across australia are calculated as a % of the tradesman wages. Most other trades have that a lot higher because in aviation an AME is a tradesman but you wont get a decent wage till you get LAME status.

putting that in perspective, a 2nd year gardener got more a week then me as a 3rd year avionics apprentice.

[jas24zzk]

Out of interest, I was just perusing the FWA site for the AME's award.
As usual, you gotta have a degree in stupidity to be able to locate info there.

Anyone know the correct award code/title?

Jas

[Jack Ranga]

putting that in perspective, a 2nd year gardener got more a week then me as a 3rd year avionics apprentice.

A first year garbage collector got more than me when I was in the 4th year of my apprenticeship. I got more than him in about the 2nd year of my trade when I headed off to the big smoke. And a lot more in the years after.

It's generational thing. And I'm not having a crack at gen y, it's my generation and the generation before me that set you up for this fall. Apprenticeships lead to other career choices, apprenticeships teach critical, practical thinking that will lead to even more career choices. They also teach you how to manage money, a skill that is sadly lacking in the current generation. Once again, not having a crack but Mummy and Daddy have set you up by giving you everything you ever asked for.

Money management: The boys that used to come into town for TAFE from Bourke and Bre used to give blood on the Thursday to get a hotdog and milkshake. They'd go hungry on Friday and make it home on Saturday for a feed. :ok:

[brad_nz90]

I am 21 years old currently living in Antarctica and I am really wanting to do a apprenticeship only problem is living in Antarctica 5 months of the year makes it impossible to get hired. I currently have a CPL and multi engine instument rating, I do not want to go to the airlines and would prefer GA if any one is interested please private mail me.

[corumwm]

If anyone is looking for a apprentice mechanical or structures please contact me. I have done all the theory subjects for structures and only require 3 or 4 extra subjects to be a mechanic. I am based in brisbane but am willing to relocate for the right employer. I applied for the qantas engineering apprenticeship 2012 program and I was in the last 7 out of 1500 applications but they only had 2 positions to fill.
contact me @ [email protected]

[Abunas]

G'day Torres,

I am emailing you because of the "Title" of my e-mail. are you still looking for an apprentice? let me know and I will let you know of a person who is currently looking within Brisbane. I finished cert IV with him, but there were no jobs since 2010 so, I went back to studies and he is still hunting for an apprenticeship position.

Cheers!

Where are the AME apprentices?
It appears less and less apprentices are attracted to AME trades, which must create an even greater skilled labour crisis in GA aircraft maintenance in the future.

I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice, age no barrier, in Central Queensland and no applicants. Zip, zilch, no interest at all.

Most trades are experiencing critical skills shortages, but if there are dimminishing numbers of apprentices entering aeroskills trades it will be impossible to keep Australia's aging aircraft flying in the future.

[Jake Aero]

Hi all, I am a 2nd year AME apprentice currently employed in Melbourne, however due to unforeseen personal reasons, I am looking to relocate to Qld (Gold coast, Brisbane area) permanently. I am finding it very difficult to find a job and have been going up and knocking on doors every month for the past year. Alot of the employers were extremely impressed with my resume and experience, but however were simply not looking for an apprentice, but to keep in contact. I have been in contact with the majority of these companies weekly, however still do not have a lead. I understand it is hard to move around in this industry and wouldn't even be thinking about it if circumstances were different.

If anyone knows of any companies looking to hire an apprentice, please let me know!

-Jake

[Burgerbez]

Hi everybody on the subject I'm a 18 nearly 19 year old i have been applying for close to a thousand apprenticeship positions within aviation and still jobless i found that most employers want lame qualified apprentices as in 75% and above passes for there theory i have attended aviation Australia cairns and did my cert 4 with some license passes and some not i don't think its a case of apprentices not being interested but employers not giving enough opportunities for them to grasp my dad has been a licensed aircraft engineer for the last 28 plus years and he has always been my inspiration to follow in his footsteps, i've been around aircraft since a young age and absolutely love it

[Doug_89]

Hi All,
Firstly I have been looking at AME apprenticeship pathways for a while now and I have found more information on this thread than anywhere else, including apprenticeship centres and the very limited network in the industry I have (mostly pilots however, which arent very usefull). So for that, Kudos!

This thread has answered a stack of questions, mostly relieveing me of my worries that there are no Apprenticeships out there. Obviously there is and I am looking in the wrong places. However It has raised other questions/issues.

I am a 23 y.o, currently in the Army, based in Darwin but from SA, where, for service reasons my Partner and 3 y.o son reside. Basically I'd give my left nut to get into the industry, with a career in mind. I'd love to end up a LAME (mech) on Helicopters. Thats my passion. I worked for a SA based company operating R44s and a 206B before enlistment where I gained some insite into the industry. I worked on the helicopters as a hanger monkey pretty much and was crew for tourism operations. Nothing special but enough to know its what I wanted to do.

Im already dribbling on so Ill cut to the chase,
1) Many posts are encouraging individuals to steer away from the game all toghether. Is the pay (once qualified) that bad? Has the new legislation/laws surrounding licensing screwed this up that much? I understand many negative posts will be from bad experiences and the "grass is always greener" syndrome, however there is a few like this...
2) Where do I start looking? I have already started abit of networking as I said however who are the best people to cold canvass to? (when I start that)
3) What can I do, off my own back, to make myself more attractive to a potential employer for an apprenticeship? Who would offer work experience?
4) I see many are studying themselves for the theroy component side of things. (Aviation Australia etc.) Is this a MUST to obtain an apprenticeship in this game? or is it common for it to be incorporated into the apprenticeship? Finances are an issue in my case so this is a bit of a concern
5) How different is the path way to rotary wing as it is fixed? Im 100% keen on Helos.

I think thats it for now! Im not trying to find a job here, thats borderline lazy, but network and get information. So ANY advice you guys have, especially the big guns (for want of better term) would be great.

I totally agree with all your observations on my generation. Everyones always chasing the greener grass without putting in the hard yards where they are. I work with some real idiots, but also some very hard working individuals. (Id love to say most of the oppertunities go to the latter, however in my game that Isnt the case alot of the time) Finding work around the hanger when your boss is busy or working late off your own back is a concept many dont understand. How would I best show that Im different? My family would move anywhere in Australia or NZ to follow any opportunity. ( Im a lucky man in that respect :ok:)

Some have already posted very valuble information, dont worry I have read back and seen it, so thanks. Know your all busy but anything specific to those questions would be Wunderbare!

[jas24zzk]

Doug,
at 23 years old you are very hard to employ as an apprentice. 95% of prospective employers will shy away from you simply based on your age, and the life experiences that have set you in your ways. That is not to say you can't be taught, but its a common held viewpoint on civvy street.

There are 2 types of employer of apprentices.
Type 1 see's a first year as cheap labour...teaching them is optional.
Type 2, see's an apprentice as a potential asset who won't make them any money until late in their 2nd year, but makes the investment.

At your age, only a type 2 employer would consider employing you, and they are few and far between, across ALL industries.

My advice to you, is to stay in the army and apply to learn the trade there. It won't do you any harm, because you will receive the best training available.
If the army won't train you, think about an interservice transfer to take up what you want to do.

I looked at it years ago, during the recession we had to have....join the army as a grunt and then apply for other stuff once in. You are in...use it wisely chum.


Cheers
Jas

ps..goodluck

[blackhand]

Doug
I agree with Jaz.
Corp transfer to RAEME into aircraft trade stream.

Cheers

[CHAIRMAN]

Hey jas, wouldn't a first or second year apprentice pay their way from the getgo?
I thought in GA that anyone employed in the outfit as a mech logged 8 hrs a day and it was all charged out at the same rate.
What am I missing here:confused:

[avcraft]

Chairman... Unfortunately not. Logging 8 hours a day does not mean those 8 hours were productive or even chargeable. Say it takes you 8 hours to service 3 wheels and the brakes on a C152 (surprisingly, many engineers can take that long!) and 1 hour for an experienced engineer to instruct and supervise you then the shop will most likely only charge out 2 of those hours because they don't want the bill to exceed the value of the aircraft and want to keep a customer.

You must always keep in mind there's a customer paying for the work you do. It's not the boss or the shop paying you, they merely hold the customers money for a week before passing it on to you. I tell my guy's to imagine if they were the customer, what would they expect...

[Doug_89]

Jaz and Blackhand,
Thanks for the advice, albeit frank and probably not what I was after. However the honesty is refreshing. It can never hurt to look whilst I am in though and I will continue to do so untill something comes up. Transferrs are hard to come by in this changing army, particulary to RAEME but Ill give it a go.

[blackhand]

Doug
Heard that there are some technicians leaving in the next 12 to 18 months.
They will need replacements
Once was RAEME Aviation so can commend it for getting the training and experience to translate to civil qualifications.

[Hircher]

I applied for and cold canvassed 20-30 businesses for an Avionics appt in 2010, had very little feedback.
Did the AA course in 2011, again lots of cold canvassing and job applications. Got offered 3 jobs and took one not ideal but hopefully a good base for a new career.
I dont think AA is the answer, but in my case it helped me get over the line with a few employers who may have thought I was a bit old. (30's)
I was married with a toddler. I looked into centrelink payments and savings to support my family.
Do your research, mature age top ups to wages, government incentives, lots of little help out there. And a little help might make all the difference.
I looked into the jobs Torres was advertising but as it was accommodation for a family was a bit much where the job was based.
Just started my 3rd year. very happy with the career change. Who knows where I'll be in 1 year, let alone 5 years.
If you want it bad enough, you will make it happen.
Good luck to all.

[Jarven]

Hi there
I am currently completing my Certificate IV in Aeroskills Mechanical through the Queensland Institute for Aviation Engineering. Am due to complete this now in March 2014.
I am currently looking for a company who is offering an apprenticeship for an AME. I am keen to commence this as soon as possible.
I have sent my résumé out to a few companies but most of them have there quota of apprenticeships or I have not heard back from them.
If anyone has any leads I would appreciate the help. I search everyday on the Internet but have had no luck as yet.
Keen to hear from anybody.

Cheers
Jared

[shadowsminx]

I know in Canada it's really tough for an apprentice to get a job, no one seems to want to hire anyone here who isn't already licensed and I have to wonder if the companies have ever sat down and thought about the fact that if they don't train them, they can't get licensed and they have therefore made their own problems worse. :/ Does an apprentice have to be from the country they have done their schooling in to do an apprenticeship?

[bozbyron87]

id say if you were to find an apprenticeship in another country say australia for example you may have to do some of the schooling again. you would definitely need to do the exams. apprentices here do one of two ways, you can enrol in a pre course that takes about 9 months full time and you complete a lot of the licence exams then you have to find an apprenticeship. the second way is you get hired with no prior experience and you go to school a few times a year for a few weeks each and do the theory and exam then over the course of about 4 years. you can be licensed after a 4year apprenticeship if you get all the boxes ticked off.
hope this helps a little.

[Torres]

Unless you have right of residency in Australia - Permanent Resident or Citizenship - you would be unable to undertake an Australian Apprenticeship, as there is no Visa available that enables you to work full time and study.

You could self fund the college components of the apprenticeship, but would be unable to work and achieve on the job competencies.

[Hasma]

[QUOTE=Torres;6501722]It appears less and less apprentices are attracted to AME trades, which must create an even greater skilled labour crisis in GA aircraft maintenance in the future.

I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd

Can I have on the job training please? I have completed B1.2 aircraft maintenance license course- (2 year course) can any one help me with it please?

[Connedrod]

Honestly why would yoy wish to come into this instusdry as an enngineer. One only has to read these pages to put anyone off let alone dealing with casa for a life time. And acording to some folk here they can do all the work much better than any lame or ame for that matter.
Find some other industry it just not worth it money wise.

[Band a Lot]

Honestly why would yoy wish to come into this instusdry as an enngineer. One only has to read these pages to put anyone off let alone dealing with casa for a life time. And acording to some folk here they can do all the work much better than any lame or ame for that matter.
Find some other industry it just not worth it money wise.



I personally think the engineering rate of this industry has been at a slower rate of decline than the pilot rate in many and most aspects.

Most ame's have very little to do with CASA.

Many pilots do, do that - they also have a greater engineering ability after their first gear up landing - on how the gear was selected down but for some reason unknown was in a retracted position after touch down - but lever in the down position to prove they were not at fault.


A good AME and LAME can make a ok/good/very good living in this game still