A fraternity...

[Pilot DAR]

I was reminded recently that we are a fraternity - those of us in aviation as a whole, and those of us in the subset of general aviation.

In our fraternity, we should take care of each other, we should go the extra mile for the other person. I was the recipient of such kind treatment from another PPRuNe member, whom I have "known" for a long time, but had never before met. This PPRuNer went the extra mile in several ways, getting me out of a sticky [travel] wicket, in addition to simply being a remarkable host for my visit.

This served as a very important reminder that we have all chosen to come together with a common interest, and as long as we choose to participate, should pull together. That doesn't mean we can't disagree appropriately, but we owe it to each other to pull together for the common good in the big picture. We are people of an industry, we need to encourage each other, and the industry, when ever we can.

This PPRuNer has certainly been very prolific over the years, providing a vast wisdom for all who would read here. My most heart felt thanks to my host. I have waited years to meet him, and it was well worth the stop in the UK this time around. He has reaffirmed the importance of taking care of one and other, which I will surely follow. I challenge the rest of you to rise to this fine standard for fraterinty in your own way too....

[flybymike]

Hmmm....wonder who that was then...?

[Fuji Abound]

Pilot DAR

What a super post.

I was very sorry not to have been able to meet you but I am so pleased you clearly had a wonderful stay.

Perhaps when you next see these shores again.

All the best

[I Love Flying]

That was a great post Pilot DAR :D

I must say that as a pretty new pilot, I continue to find my fellow aviators generally helpful and supportive. Not all hobbies are like this sadly.

[AfricanEagle]

Great post DAR, we are indeed a band of brothers.

Thanks to the various internet forums I have met some wonderful people in the UK, Denmark and South Africa. I have been offered transport, meals, night stays and have shared some memorable flights.

In other countries pilots have gone gone out of their way to help me and make me feel welcome.

I try to exchange when somebody arrives in my area, last Sunday a nice day (I hope for my friend) spent flying together with an American Ppruner.

[kevmusic]

I found PPRuNe when I was pre-PPL and desperate to get the coveted licence to commit aviation. My friends here have supported and encouraged me every inch of the way - much as fellow students and pilots whom I meet face-to-face have done.

Well said, Pilot DAR; it needed saying, and I'm sure most PPRuNers would have absolutely no difficulty in meeting your challenge. :)

[loaded as a dice]

Fine words Pilot DAR :D:D

[fernytickles]

"Fraternity"?

"we are indeed a band of brothers"

And the female pilots? What of them? Invisible? Chopped liver? Nonentities? :ugh: :=

[Pilot DAR]

Pardon me, I was not aware that "fraternity" is gender limited, as I have only ever been a member of the aviation fraterinty. which is certainly not gender limited. As there are many PPRuNe members whose gender is unknown to me, I have no intention to allow them to feel excluded. Hmmm, maybe I should sign up for the 99's so I can promote a feeling of comradery.... (Ooo, I hope that term does not have any hidden implications!)

Sorry to have missed you Fuji, I'll be back, Icelandic ash permitting. In the mean time, I wish both of you a pleasant evening at the pub some time, and I'll catch up later...

[Alan_D]

DAR,

As someone who has helped me in the past, if I had known you were in the UK I would have taken the opportunity to meet up if possible and buy you a drink!

(Your advise about Lake Country Airways last year was excellent and I look forward to the opportunity to return :))

Alan.

[Whirlygig]

Fraternity ... from the latin for brother, frater.

Fernytickles has a point. It may not be directed at you as an individual PilotDAR but to that not insigificant group of middle-aged, fixed-wing male pilots who treat aviatrices in a patronising and condescending manner. Until some attitudes change, you will remain indeed a band of brothers.

Cheers

Whirls

[IO540]

male pilots who treat aviatrices in a patronising and condescending manner.

I've never seen that anywhere.

Women have always been most welcome in GA - not least because there are so few of them.

[AfricanEagle]

I used the term "band of brothers".

It is the title of a book written by Ernest Gann, the story of how pilots from around the world teamed up to help a fellow pilot in need of help. I love that book.

I used the words in that sense, that pilots around the world will help pilots, no reference intended to being male or female.

[Pilot DAR]

Fraternity ... from the latin for brother, frater.


I suppose I have errantly demonstrated how little I know about latin, or male dominated institutions. While attemping to cast a warm senitment of inclusion, I accidently was exclusive.

My original senitment should be received with no gender bias whatever intended. I will give a second thought the next time I hear one in a group of women ask the others in the group: "What do you guys want to do?"

[mad_jock]

The band of brothers/sisters only works in some parts of the world and certain individuals take the piss out of it unfortunately.

[Final 3 Greens]

Fernytickles

Quite pathetic that you twist a warm and genuine comment from PilotDAR to give you the opportunity to slip the PC knife in.

If you want to be taken seriously, act your age not your shoe size.

[Pilot DAR]

It's okay, I do know that there was a side of humour in Fenytickles post, and it's not fair to take her on too hard while she's still sleeping!

I have in the past felt honestly badly when I have accidentally offended a female with an unintended gender biased remark. I think it an unfortunate historic (well, historic in much of the world anyway) legacy of male self importance, which has left us with a lanuage which still holds these pitfalls.

Perhaps those of us who would like to admit to being male here, would like to offer that any gender bias which appears in a post is accidental, and not intended to offend - I hereby so offer...

I have every belief that the pilots of the world should and do pull together as much as possible, and certainly gender need not be divisive!

[moreflaps]

For goodness sake, let's not PC become between us. The term pilot is genderless, but fraternity as applied to a genderless group is perfectly appropriate as there is no genderless equivalent. We are truly brothers and sisters in our love of flying and long may it stay that way. PC has no place in our mutual love of flying and to even suggest that gender is important is divisive and beneath contempt.

my 2c ... with both barrels.

Flaps

[Pilot DAR]

Please confirm my guess that "PC" refers to political correctness? I just want to make sure I don't perpetuate more insult, resulting from unfamiliarity with my first and only language!

[24Carrot]

Based on Pilot DAR's posts, it is hard to imagine a less bigoted person.

Words change their meaning over time, at different rates in different places.

One of my favourites is "The Oxford History Of England", written between 1936 and 1965.
Towards the end of that period, people started to wonder why a history of Britain should be called that.

[172driver]

Fernytickles: get a life

[dublinpilot]

What a nice post Pilot DAR.

If the pprune member who was so kind to you is a Private Flying poster, then please name them (and embarrass them in a nice way) so that they can get the little bit of the credit that they deserve :)

So many of the conversations here are argumentive in nature, that it's good to be reminded that most people are pretty desent when you meet them in person ;)

[Whirlygig]

I've never seen that anywhere.Of course you haven't - yer a bloke!! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Fuji Abound]

Girls, come on, you may well have a point, BUT the OP has made it absolutely clear that his intentions were NOT as you suggest. By all means start a thread on sex discrimination in private flying (the banter could well be entertaining) but it seems a shame to detract from the OP.

Cheers.

[audioaviator]

Wonderful post Pilot DAR :D
Thanks for sharing your thoughts... :ok:

[Pilot DAR]

then please name them (and embarrass them in a nice way) so that they can get the little bit of the credit that they deserve

I considered this, my intent was to cast a positive sentiment over the group as a whole, rather than to focus on an identifed individual. He knows who he is, and this group has expressed kind thoughts toward him before. I'll let you continue to speculate as to who it might be, so that you will extend that little bit of extra courtesy more broadly.

Similarly, I feel no unkindness from the remarks made by the women. It is a leftover from our society's past that these literary pitfalls exist. I would hardly be living the way I propose we all do, if I took offense, or promoted it. I expect that if some men wish to be seen as gender biased, they can easily do that. Otherwise I hope the women will assume that no bias was intended.

And to put my money where my mouth is, It was an extremely compotent female flying instructor who did my commercial pilot training, and another very experienced female fire patrol pilot who did type training for me, and flew as safety pilot for my Caravan flight testing last year. I remain to this day, very inspired by the female pilots who ferried all types of aircraft during WW2. I came to know one, and I am the wiser for it.

I appreciate Fuji's comment. If there is to be a thread of gender descrimination, I will surely participate....

[kevmusic]

Well said, Fuji, Nail, head, hit.

[fernytickles]

Pilot DAR & I have communicated privately in the past, and he has been very helpful to me too. As he recognised, this wasn't a dig at him directly. It was unforunate that such as nice post as he made originally used the term "fraternity", and someone else used "band of brothers" so adding to the point I brought up.

I do not believe in political correctness just for the sake of it. Having said that, I am noticing more & more that aviation groups, forums and organisations talk the talk about bringing in more girls & women, but don't walk the walk when it comes to small details. Just reading AOPA's recent magazine where they have an article discussing why so few of the world's pilots are women, and what can be done to change that. In the next article there's references to a fraternity (brotherhood), pilots being referred to as "he", rather than "they" etc, etc. At a recent EAA event, the CEO referred to the aviation "fraternity" (I guess he doesn't understand his Latin either ;) ). Yet EAA runs the "Women Soar" program to try and encourage more women into aviation.

These are only tiny aspects to the big picture of encouraging more girls to become involved in aviation, but I believe they have the potential to make a difference. If a young girl is reading about aviation that always has a male context, will their instant mental image of the situation referenced be of a mixed gender group, or of a group of men? Is that more likely to make them feel it is a community where they could join in? Or does it come across that aviation is just populated by men?

I don't believe in only encouraging girls to get involved in aviation, I believe everyone should be encouraged, regardless of gender, race, colour or creed. The more people who become interested, and stay interested in aviation, the better it is for the aviation community (not sorority, not fraternity :8 - I guess something from the one year of Latin I did at school must have stuck) as a whole. So the more women and girls who feel aviation is a place they would be included, so much the better.

No more soapbox for today. Sorry PD, I didn't mean to mess up your thread :(

[Pilot DAR]

Sorry PD, I didn't mean to mess up your thread http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

No Problem Fenytickles, I understand. I'm sure I've blundered into a few myself!

So what could the "brothers" in this "fraterinty" do to be more obviously gender sensative or neutral? Beyond avoiding sexist remarks, and taking care with He/She-His/Hers etc. and avoiding gender biased terms (once we realize they are!) what else is to be done?

The spirit of gender equality seems to be apparent in the group, what's a "guy" to do? (not trying to put you on the spot, just wondering where to go from here, so please step within range of your soapbox!).

[AfricanEagle]

While I can understand the "harshness" of language terms for some members of the flying community, when I write on a flying forum, no matter the gender term used, I intend "pilot" and a pilot for me is a pilot, full stop.

Gender, race, and other differences have no value in the cockpit.

[Whirlygig]

Beyond avoiding sexist remarksActually, just that would do :}

Seriously, the problem lies in assumptions; makes an ASS of U and ME.

Took a non-aviating male friend flying and landed at a small airfield somewhere in the East of England for the £10 bacon sarnie. My friend was greated by fellow aviators wanting to know about learning to fly helicopters. He replied by suggesting that the pilot would be the best person to ask. If this was a one-off, I wouldn't mind but it happens frequently along with questions like, "what does my husband think of me flying?".

Unfortunately gentlemen, what some of you see as harmless banter is actually old, tired, outdated "humour" that went out of fashion at the same time as "Love They Neighbour" and Bernard Manning. You know, the jokes about map-reading and reverse parking?

I would dearly love to think we are all one in this coterie (like it?? - good word) but until some of this nonsense stops, a small faction of the GA community will feel alienated. Intelligent and witty banter is great and I'll give as good as I get, but hackneyed cliches with an underlying sense of belief in them have no place in a truly a-sexual environment.

Cheers

Whirls

[Fuji Abound]

The odd thing is i often wish i was a girl if that is the way it works.

I would be very happy to not answer the questions and smile sweetly.

Oh well i guess the grass is always greener. :)

(only adding to the debate as the op doesnt mind the thread drift).

[IO540]

I cannot believe that Pilot-DARs most admirable thread has been hijacked in this way, after so many other examples of somebody here and elsewhere using "he" (or similar) in a posting.

Why don't these two women lobby Pprune management to start a new women-only forum if they feel so strongly about trivia like grammar. In the English language, the masculine includes the feminine and it has done so for centuries.

a small faction of the GA community will feel alienated

Only those with well balanced personalities: a chip on each shoulder.

[Whirlygig]

I would be very happy to not answer the questions and smile sweetly.Really. :hmm:

It's not a question of the grass being greener as, oddly, I have no desire to be male; it's a question of being taking seriously. A message which still isn't getting through.

Why don't these two women lobby PPRuNe management to start a new women-only forum if they feel so strongly about trivia like grammar. In the English language, the masculine includes the feminine and it has done so for centuries.


Personally, I don't have any problem with apparent "masculine" terms encompassing both sexes and bizarrely, I don't think there should be any place for a "Women's Forum" anymore than I think there should be a need for the BWPA.

Cheers

Whirls

[Pilot DAR]

Whirls, your points are well made. I have witnessed such poor behaviour myself, and intervened a few times. So what would you see done if you could infulence the sexists? What would you want to think your male PPRuNe colleages would do to quell sexism in aviation, if they felt they had an opportunity?

All the good will misses the mark, if the intended recipients think it is mis directed.

As a person who has flown since I was 15 years old, I can appreciate what you're saying just a little, as I was the victim of the "little kid" sydrome for a while. It took a long time to be taken seriously.

[Whirlygig]

Pilot DAR, you ask some good, but not-easy-to-answer questions. I don't know. It'll be a slow process for any minority to gain true acceptance into any coterie (I SO like that word :)).

Maybe chaps, if you see a chap and a chapess disembark from an aircraft and you want to talk to the pilot about said aircraft, why not use the opening gambit of, "Hi, which one of you is the expert on this xxxx aircraft"? If it's both of them, then both he and she will say, "Me"; otherwise, you'll get your answer. ;)

Cheers

Whirls

[Jan Olieslagers]

And how is this "coterie" to be understood?

Annoyance could have been simply avoided by mentioning a "family" rather than a "brotherhood". "Guild" could have done too, but has some implication of professionalism.

Back to the original topic: yes, the bond is there. Has been equal to me with (the few) women in the club. And I do take it for no more than an unhappy coincidence that the one student pilot in the club who is never going to make it is female. Actually I only made it very marginally myself, and only after exhaustive application of patience and budget.

The bond is there. The very few that I found standing out from it were either medium-hours pilots wanting to show off, or a very few that were "incontournable" and wanted me to feel it. Seems to occur in some newly created instructors, and generally passes naturally, without doing great harm except to their own pride.

Of course it must be entirely by coincidence that I never observed either kind of behaviour in any female.

PS "gambit" is an unusual word too, but you might know it from studying/playing chess - another world where woman are rare, and for no apparent reason either.

post-edited PPSS : Coterie - Wikipédia (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coterie) has some enlightenment, but not very recommendable, it seems to encompass both vices I mentioned.

[flybymike]

I think a woman's place is in the home, cooking my tea and cleaning up after me. They shouldn't bother their pretty little heads about aeroplanes and things they can't possibly be expected to understand.

[Jan Olieslagers]

which says it all about your ability to expect.












But I do seem to detect some kind of double edge. Will work it out when the next Sun rises.

[Deeday]

hackneyed cliches with an underlying sense of belief in them have no place in a truly a-sexual environment.Shall we say non-sexist instead? 'Asexual' means something else (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality). :ok:

P.S. Mods, this discussion really belongs to a separate thread: why not spin it off from say post #30?

[Whirlygig]

Jan ... not quite sure what point you're trying make with the choice of words used but ...

coterie noun 1. a group of people who associate closely.


2. an exclusive group; clique

I won't mention prairie dogs .....

Gambit ... indicative of my classical upbringing, I'm afraid .... I don't play chess ... but don't challenge me to backgammon unless your pockets are deep. :)

Cheers

Whirls

[Genghis the Engineer]

On Pilot_DAR's point, I agree utterly. I have never kept track of the countless small kindnesses that have been done for me over the years as a pilot: loans of equipment, ground-engineers who have sorted out some problem away from home and declined any payment, lifts to local hotels or other services when I've been stranded. All purely because in aviation we have a fraternity/sorority where we all as a matter of course help each other out. Some of those favours have definitely come from women as well as men.

On Fernytickles' and Whirlygig's ongoing rant - I understand and sympathise - but this does go both ways. One of my closest friends is a male ward sister in the NHS, whilst one of my hobbies is cooking. Try talking as a younger male to any unrelated female over 50 about cooking and see how far the conversation gets before they start looking at you with grave suspicion - not to mention the difficulties of explaining that Sister is called Pete ! (For that matter, my wife used to be president of the Women's Engineering Society - and if you think that women pilots have issues, try women engineers.) At the same time, terminology that is historically single-gender does need to make do for this more egalitarian age - so we have "madam chairman", "Sister Peter", men and women within a fraternity of pilots, and so on - live with it; there are bigger issues to worry about (like genuine discrimination, which certainly exists).

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

Whirls, I was not trying to make any kind of point. I am fascinated by the subtleties of languages and, as a foreigner, saw an opportunity for learning a bit of English. Which you have duly filled, to my everlasting gratitude.

@Genghis: sorry, I can never live with "madam chairman", but could happily stomach "lady chairwoman". What need to complicate? As for "Sister Peter", that could get one in hospital FAST, round here. Or even in prison. Had some really bad stories over here, recently.

On a complete sidenote: local courtesy has always had us calling lawyers "Meester", obviously related to "Master" and "Mister". When women came into the legal profession, and today they are very prominent in it here, some insisted to be adressed as "Meester" too, but I could never get myself round to it. Unfortunately, the proper female form "Meesteres" ("Mistress", more or less) would have an unmistakeable and very unfortunate sexual connotation, so it is regrettably out of the way. My answer is that in the 21th century they can simply be called "Sir" and "Lady", in Dutch "Meneer" and "Mevrouw".

The times have indeed been changing.

[Whirlygig]

Genghis... valid points all ....

I have a real aversion to terms such a "Chairwoman" or "Chairperson" or God forbid, the BBC predaliction for "Chair" like someone is a piece of Chippendale ..... It's ChairMAN .. as in huMAN ....

All I ask for is to be treated as an equal intellectually and not to be tarred with the same brush that some gentlemen seem to think is a female stereotype.

Jan, you see that linguistic minefield over there? Don't step on it ... oh you have. :} No worries, I get your point.


Cheers

Whirls

G,...You can cook for me any day ...:p

[IO540]

I have a real aversion to terms such a "Chairwoman" or "Chairperson" or God forbid, the BBC predaliction for "Chair" like someone is a piece of Chippendale ..... It's ChairMAN .. as in huMAN ....

So, you want to pick the bits of "equality" which you like and moan about the others.

Have you got teenage sons at school, by any chance? And see how many more activities are laid on for the girls? Life is much harder for boys at that age.

[Fuji Abound]

But women arent equal .. .. .. You cant change millions of years of evoluion in the blink of an eye.

[Whirlygig]

So, you want to pick the bits of "equality" which you like and moan about the others.Yes ... that's what makes me an individual and a different person to some other women who do want the eradication of sex-based terminology.

Not all women are the same and some aspects of the "feminist" movement make me want to cringe. However, from an aviation point-of-view, all I ask is to be treated in the same way as any other pilot.

But women arent equal .. .. .. You cant change millions of years of evoluion in the blink of an eye.

I rest my case.

Cheers

Whirls

[Pilot DAR]

P.S. Mods, this discussion really belongs to a separate thread: why not spin it off from say post #30?

No, it's okay, I offer to allow the thread drift, I think it appropriate, and follows the original theme of [togetherness] well!

and you want to talk to the pilot about said aircraft, why not use the opening gambit of, "Hi, which one of you is the expert on this xxxx aircraft"?

Oooo, that would not work with me! Letting alone any gender issuse at all, I'd be looking around the ramp for someone else to whom to direct the enquiry! A long long time ago, I once blundered into pronouncing myself as the "expert" on an aircraft. After being effectivly taken down a notches, and appropriately so, it was gently explained to me that an "ex" is a has been, and a "spert" is a drip under pressure. Never again - I just know something about aircraft....

Perhpas you would introduce another approach Whirls...

Another industry, in which I have been well immersed for twenty years, can also be very sexist - Firefighter.

It can be difficult for women to find their footing in this "guild". When I decided to introduce my daughter (then 18) to what we did - sort of "take your kid to work day", some prebriefing seemed appropriate. I told her to always show respect those more experienced than she, treat every person exactly as she would want to be treated, and to never ever not step in to pull her share when it was appropriate. A week later she was right beside me, lifting a leg to pull a dead guy out of his crunched car. She was hired as our fourth volunteer firefighter out of 55 at the time. Six years on, she is more formally trained than I, and takes on most of the responsibility for a lot of our training. She is one of 8 females out of 60 of us, and our Fire department has the highest percentage of females known in Ontario. I have never had to rise to her defense, and never known her to have been poorly or sexist treated. Using the term "guys" in its apparent non-gender specific context, she's just one of them...

And just for a little colour in this thread, here we are during training...

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Fire%20Department/IMG_0339.jpg

But I drift the drift....

I agree that there are females who are unfairly the vicitms of gender descrimination in aviation, as in just about every other aspect of life. But, when well meaning males make the extra effort toward being inclusive to females, it can backfire with undertones of that male having other motives, it is a very fine line. If females wish to be treated equally, they will serve themselves well by accepting what goes by them in social circles as equally as they can tolerate. It's fair to indicate their desire to not be the intended victims of descimination, but I think it unfair, and divisive for them to catch every little slip, and spotlight it. Some things have to be left to slide, or our society will be forever stumbling over policial correctness, and never get anything done. I happily observe now in the Fire Department, the females in the group make remarks which the men are best to let slide, and usually we do!

I'm sure that if males can find a way (exclusive of identifying "experts") of being gender inclusive, they generally would. When a few sexists do not, then some male to male mentoring might be helpful, and I'm happy to do my part. But females share responsibility for paving this path forward too...

[Fuji Abound]

Originally Posted by Fuji
But women arent equal .. .. .. You cant change millions of years of evoluion in the blink of an eye.
I rest my case.

Are you sure?

Think for a moment about some of the gender diffrences that come about from the evolution of our species - do you really believe there are no differences?

and no, this isnt a windup, but a factual observation.

[Whirlygig]

PIlotDAR ... well said. Funnily enough, I have not been on the receiving end of any sexism in the rotary coterie (alliteration as well ;)); it's been from the fixed wing world. My observation only.

Fuji ... I have not said anywhere that men and women are the same; I said we should be treated the same.

Cheers

Whirls

[Pilot DAR]

it's been from the fixed wing world

Hmmm, perhaps we're all so impressed that helicopters fly at all, that anyone who has the skill to fly one is obviously already above gender based discrimination!;)

[PPRuNe Pop]

When Pilot DAR made his post I am sure that he had no intention of offending anyone, least of the ladies in PF.

As I (and Collins) see it fraternity is a "body of people united in aims and interests" a fraternity, a brotherhood, a sisterhood but a group of people sharing a common interest. Bringing sexist connotations into it is my view unfair and should have been said between bitten lips.

If anyone needs to make it sexist then I suggest you spilit into two groups. Males and females. Then what will you achive? Zilch, nada. You wanna know why? Because you will STILL be two bodies united in aims and interests.

Is that enough to stop this nonsense?

Flying is a joint pastime or job. It was never always thus but that is because of the French. Get on and enjoy.

As for meeting, that is easy. Just arrange it with a suggestion and see how far it goes.

PPP

[WorkingHard]

Whirls do you mean you should be treated the same in all circumstances or just those that suit? You see I am from an age where we respected the opposite sex for the differences and teated each accordingly. By and large there was no discrimination in any sphere where male and female were doing equal tasks or equally well at anything. But it seems to me this being treated equally does not seem to be universal, for example when a female worker falls pregnant and then has time off for birthing et al the poor old employer has to pick up a huge tab for that little excercise and on top of that has to keep the job open for a long period. That does not seem equal so in the interests of you showing how "the same" you are would you only accept the "benefits" that are applicable to your male colleagues.
Just wondering!

[Pilot DAR]

I can't agree with the foregoing. A child is raised by a community as a whole thus the community should step up as a whole to offer support for it's care during the first months. To me, the fact that it is a female who is typically central to that care is not relevent. If a male were taking this responsibilty, I would support that equally. Our society will tolerate "time off" for recovery of injuries sustained during some "elective" activities by either gender, so as a female needs some time to recover after child birth, we've already established the legitimacy of that!

My wife has ribbed me in the past, that "I do not cook" (well the kids never starved), and would eat out too often. I should cook more at home. I pointed out that she took her car to have the oil changed, or have the snow tires put on too often, and could do those things at home. She took my point.

Men and women are different, but still equal....

[Whirlygig]

WorkingHard ...in the UK, women's salaries, for comparable jobs, are currently 20% less than those of men.

I have no desire to get into any political treatise as my comments were solely directed at (thankfully a minority) a group of male pilots who still think women should be chained to the kitchen sink.

Cheers

Whirls

[maxred]

Good God, this is a interesting LITTLE discussion on PPRUNE.

A Sunday morning and Bank Holiday weekend.

The subject matter is vast and as always complicated. The issue is that ALL individuals should be treated with respect. It rarely appears to be the case. Men are generally the culprits, the prat who makes the 'golf club' joke about another guy losing his hair, the idiot who makes the sexist comment about a female, the clown who thinks he is mister Billy Big Bollocks:sad:

Women rarely make these stupid comments, and when they attempt to be treated ''equally'' and with ''respect'', off starts another rant about equality, and being 'together'. - From the men.

An observation though, the majority of women appear to want equality only when it suits them, i.e take out the 'rough' bits.:ouch:

[IO540]

in the UK, women's salaries, for comparable jobs, are currently 20% less than those of men.I've been an employer for 33 years.

Do you think there are employers who will pay 20% less to a woman for the same job?

That's been illegal for more or less as long as I've been in business :ugh:

Any employer trying that one would be before a tribunal within a day of "her" walking out of the door after the job interview.

The reason why women earn less is because women are, statistically very significantly, attracted to more "casual" jobs, which obviously happen to be lower paid. I don't suppose you have kids, but if you did you would understand one of the reasons for this. Another reason for it is that, again statistically significantly, whereas a man tends to aim to have some kind of life-long career, a woman tends to seek life-long financial security in a marriage. Again I don't suppose that applies to you, as a career corporate accountant.

Obviously society is changing but the stats remain.

[IanPZ]

I've been very hesitant to join in this discussion, but given PiolotDAR's encouragement, I think I will.

Firstly, I'd like to say I feel Whirlygig and Ferny were prefectly within their rights to raise this. Whilst the intention of the post was not to be sexist, "fraternity" does show the implicit sexism in the langauage. As someone (IO?) pointed out, masculine encompasses feminine an many languages, and I wonder why that is?!

Also, huge credit to PilotDAR. There seem to be a lot of people who get very defensive when faced with questions of sexism, racism, etc, another group who make glib jokes to prove they meant no harm (those jokes stem from a sexist or racist culture), and very few who have the integrity to apologise and make it clear what they had meant in the first place. I take my hat off to you.

But as for the real issue, in my mind, its the difficulty of the word equality. Fuji's point has validity, but not just relating to men and women. We are not all equal, and we are all different. Whether it's because one person can give birth, or another can carry heavier loads, or a third can do unimaginably complicated maths easily (engineers?), the thing is that we rarely celebrate the differences, and treat each other with respect. I am sure we have all experienced that exculsivity from others in our pasts, and if we haven't, then I suspect that is more because we are being exclusive to others, rather than it not existing.

And that was the point of PilotDARs post, I think. The inclusive nature of the .... aviator (phew, that was hard to find a gender neutral word....goes to show!).

PD asked Whirly what to do, what could make a difference. Well, I've been asked the same from a racist perspective, and I try and say the following.

If you are the receiver of racism/sexism etc, politely pick up the point and make sure the person who was being unmindful realises it.

If you are the source of the racist/sexist statement, however unwittingly, then accept that what you said may have been inconsiderate or ill-judged, rephrase the statement, and don't try to defend it. (As far as I can see, that's exactly what PilotDAR did).

We aren't going to obliterate centuries (millenia) of habit in a blink of an eye, but if we start by accepting it exists, may offend, and can be corrected, that's a good place. As whirly said, don't just make assumptions like the man would obviously be the pilot...and if you do and it turns out you were wrong....don't resort to sexist jokes to try and "make it okay". Just say sorry, and move on.

Now....all of you can shout at me :-)

IPZ

[IO540]

I think there is very little sexism that is negative to women, in GA.

There are very few women flying GA. Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.

Most instructors fall over themselves to instruct a female student. One could argue they have an ulterior motive but so what? It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to ;)

[Conventional Gear]

I think there is very little sexism that is negative to women, in GA.

There are very few women flying GA. Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.

Most instructors fall over themselves to instruct a female student. One could argue they have an ulterior motive but so what? It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to

I must visit this parallel universe at some time and take advantage of it. :rolleyes:

[IanPZ]

Sorry to disagree IO, but all sexism (and racism) is negative. The instructor who falls over himself to teach a female student, irrespective of motive....that's sexist. And worse than that, the examiner who passes someone out of generosity, giving the benefit of the doubt....that's just dangerous, and it happens, again and again in many walks of life. That is just as bad as being offhand or excluding someone based on their gender or race.

I am catagorically not saying that the GA community is sexist, as a community can't be....a person can. I think some of the comments in this thread have proved that. However, a community, as a group of people, can override an individual, and I that is to be commended. If the GA community as a whole supports bringing more women into flying, then that is a great thing. If an individual is sexist, that should be highlighted. Not punished, but highlighted, and that person should be helped to understand why they were being sexist, and why its wrong.

[Whirlygig]

IanPZ, another thoughtful post. :D

IO540, whether or not I have children of whatever age and sex, whether or not I am married, divorced or widowed, and what, and for whom, I do for a living are extraneous to the discussion - there is no need to bring personal circumstances into it.

Do you think there are employers who will pay 20% less to a woman for the same job?Yes. There are. Fact. May be illegal but it happens and it's down to the woman to bring the case for which she needs proof and proof that's hard to obtain. To believe that it still doesn't happen is naive I'm afraid.

Cheers

Whirls

PS ... Aviator is a male term ... the female equivalent is aviatrix. :} ;) Stick to pilot. :ok:

[Whirlygig]

Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.

It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to

Not this female ... this is precisely the sort of thing that I, for one, don't want.

Cheers

Whirls

[IO540]

What exactly do you want?

Where (in GA) I have been revolving I have not seen any discrimination against women, other than the standard preferential treatment which the more attractive ones obviously get (and which would be mirrored in mens' favour if they found themselves in a predominantly female community).

Have you been refused a helicopter rental if you turned up with the right papers and the dosh?

Has a helicopter salesman refused to sell you a helicopter?

Has an instructor refused to train you because, apparently, you being a woman?

I have known some female aircraft owners and while obviously rare they seem to get on just fine.

The biggest stumbling block in GA is the usual stuff: having enough money and having enough time.

[IanPZ]

Whirly....I stand corrected. Thanks :-)

[Fuji Abound]

Fuji ... I have not said anywhere that men and women are the same; I said we should be treated the same.


Whirls

Again a serious post, if you accept we are not the same, why do you want to be treated in the same way. Surely the two are mutually incompatible?

Why would you not play to each others stengths?

[Whirlygig]

IO540 and Fuji .... may I respectfully suggest that you read PilotDAR's and IanPZ's insightful and well-balanced posts because, at this moment I canot think what else to say to get my point across.

If though, as I suspect, you are both being deliberately obtuse with the aim of furthering the Sport of Devil's Advocacy, I shall bow out now.

Cheers

Whirls

[flybymike]

If an individual is sexist, that should be highlighted. Not punished, but highlighted, and that person should be helped to understand why they were being sexist, and why its wrong.

What a load of patronising politically correct bollox, designed to ingratiate oneself with the female fraternity (if there is such a thing). Next thing we know the thought police will have us all incarcerated until we are taught to think the correct way.
If I want to employ a male worker for a physically demanding job because it is more suitable for a man than a woman, am I being sexist? If a woman running a hair dressing salon wants to employ a hunk dressed as a chippindale in a bow tie and boxer shorts to sit on the reception desk because for some strange reason the women seem to like it, is she being sexist? If I advertise for a secretary and get applications from an equally qualified male and female, but I prefer to look at the woman rather than the man, am I being sexist? and if I pick the man instead, am I discriminating against the woman? Examples are endless. Get a life....

[fernytickles]

PD - thank you for having the capacity not to get offended about your post being expanded to encompass another subject.

Genghis - (For that matter, my wife used to be president of the Women's Engineering Society - and if you think that women pilots have issues, try women engineers.)

That reminds me of a situation I experienced here in the US a few years ago. I had flown in to an airport in Maryland with a colleague. While there a woman came and introduced herself to me, explaining she was a mechanic (engineer) at the maintenance shop and was pleased to meet a woman pilot. We chatted for a while and then she went on her way. My colleague immediately assumed that she was trying to hit on me, because she was a mechanic and therefore, automatically, must be a lesbian, which was in his eyes a very negative thing. :ugh:

Pprune Pop - As I (and Collins) see it fraternity is a "body of people united in aims and interests" a fraternity, a brotherhood, a sisterhood but a group of people sharing a common interest. Bringing sexist connotations into it is my view unfair and should have been said between bitten lips

Would you have a problem with using aviation "community", which has no connotation to either gender? Or if editors were to adjust articles in aviation magazines to use "they" instead of "him"? Or, dare I say it, "her" ....

Ian - I wish I could express myself even half as well as you do :)

PD - you ask what can be done.

For starters, I could go on & on with any number of anecdotes about situations where I have experienced sexist behaviour, but thats life, stuff happens, and I don't see that as being constructive to the discussion.

I would hope for a more positive effect. Perhaps by bringing this discussion up, maybe it will make one or two people a little more aware of how the community could be perceived by those not already involved, how one or two small things can be changed to help improve the chances of including and encouraging more more of the general public to become involved, and to stay involved, in aviation. In the longterm this strengthens and benefits the whole of aviation.

ps - I loved the photo you posted. Youse Ontarians are one tough bunch going swimming when there's lumps of ice floating around!

[Pilot DAR]

In my first post here, I issued a challenge, now I know how to refine it to be meaningful, in the context of this discussion....

For many years, I attended a pilot friend's summer farm BBQ. I would take every kid who wanted to go for a circuit. It sometimes took hours, there were dozens of kids. After many years of doing this, a very pleasant teenaged girl came up and introduced herself as Laura. She explained that I had taken her years earlier. She was so intrigued with flying, she joined Air Cadets, earned a glider license by scolarship, then a private powered license by scolarship. She must have really worked hard to do that! I took her flying a few more times, and taught her some advanced flying. I heard she went on to professional flying, though have lost track of her.

The challenge PPRuNers is now that we must each do something within our capacity, to inspire/enable a young women to fly. To be non-sexist, this should obviously be balanced with a similar effort toward young men ('cause it would not be right to discrimiate against them!), but we'll provide a special opportunity to the women.

It's our industry, and it needs growing. It would not be right to miss the opportunity to inspire women to take their place in it....

[Deeday]

Would you have a problem with using aviation "community"?It wouldn't be a problem. It would simply be sad if because of this obsession for gender-neutral language we were to lose a word - fraternity - that conveys a much stronger connotation than just community (which is the reason why the OP used it).
PPRuNe Pop hit the nail on the head. A lot of gender-specific language has been with us since ever, it's practical and does not imply gender-based discrimination. To take offence at it is like thinking that the calendar we use is religiously discriminatory because it starts from the birth of Jesus. I'm an atheist, should I be offended?

[Fuji Abound]

Whirls


at this moment I canot think what else to say to get my point across.


In all seriousness I am not sure what your point is.

You accept we are different and you seem to accept that we shouldnt be treated the same.

It seems to me that in the areas we are the same you object to discrimination. A girl can be a pilot just as well as a bloke, in some situations she will make a better pilot than a bloke. Discriminations in these circumstances is born out of ignorance, like any other discrimination. What's to not understand?

Genuinely curious?

[Whirlygig]

and you seem to accept that we shouldnt be treated the same.Where did I say that? :confused:

Cheers

Whirls

[flybymike]

It seems to me that in the areas we are the same you object to discrimination. A girl can be a pilot just as well as a bloke, in some situations she will make a better pilot than a bloke. Discriminations in these circumstances is born out of ignorance, like any other discrimination. What's to not understand?


When I was a lad being called "discriminating" was a compliment. It meant one had the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff. These days choosing the best option is not politically acceptable, whether it be gender, education, employment, whatever.

[Fuji Abound]

Where did I say that? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif


Whirls

Sorry, I assumed, I have put the ass before me.

It does beg the question; dont you?

You girls are far better at dealing with G than us blokes, so would you agree you girls have the edge in high G situations?

Us blokes have the edge when it comes to speed, would you want to run in the same race with Bolt?

You girls are faaaar better than us blokes at working out whats going on in the oppositons minds (after all you have been perfecting social skills for a million years) I would rather have you on my side than another bloke. I ask my PA every time whether we should take some one on, she has almost a 100% record, against mine that is less than 50:50. ;)

[Whirlygig]

No ... I'll say it again. I don't think men and women should be treated differently; both should be treated with respect and courtesy and both sexes should be free from being stereotyped.

Cheers

Whirls

[Fuji Abound]

No ... I'll say it again. I don't think men and women should be treated differently; both should be treated with respect and courtesy and both sexes should be free from being stereotyped.


Whirls

Now I am confused.

You agree we are different.

Everyone, male or female, black or white, disabled or able should be treated with respect and courtesy.

.. but it doesnt mean we arent each different, does it?

Embrace the differences, play to your strenghts.

What is wrong with that?

[Whirlygig]

Embrace the differences, play to your strenghts.

What is wrong with that? The assumption that you know what my strengths, and ipso facto, my weaknesses are based on my sex, that's what.

Cheers

Whirls

[IO540]

It's obvious, surely.

A woman can fly and talk at the same time. No man can do that. He has to first write down the stuff he has to read. You yourself claim to be capable of "Hovering AND talking".

[Pilot DAR]

You yourself claim to be capable of "Hovering AND talking".

That's 'cause nobody can hover and write, your hands and feet are full of flight controls!

[Whirlygig]

A woman can fly and talk at the same time. No man can do that.The whole point behind my personal title was that I couldn't hover and talk for a long time. Also, why do your own sex down by saying, "No man can do that"? Of course they can - there are plenty of male helicopter pilots. :confused:

Cheers

Whirls

[Pilot DAR]

Of course they can - there are plenty of male helicopter pilots.

Yeah, but speaking personally, I sometimes turn the radio down, so I can concentrate on flying the helicopter with the precision I intend.... (but then people do occasionally say that I don't seem to be listening, even when I'm just standing there!)

[IO540]

Also, why do your own sex down by saying, "No man can do that"? Of course they can - there are plenty of male helicopter pilots. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

Because they know I am pulling their leg.

[Pilot DAR]

It's required to train to land after a loss of tail rotor control, while flying helicopters. I think that's in case someone pulls your leg while you're flying one, and they won't stop....

[Whirlygig]

http://www.rebornbabiesuk.com/images/smilies/smiley_ROFLMAO.gif

Cheers

Whirls

[Fuji Abound]

The assumption that you know what my strengths, and ipso facto, my weaknesses are based on my sex, that's what.

So dont you make the same assumptions? For example, Whirly you assume most men are sexist, and your assumptions is probably correct, but not all are.

You assumed earlier that I certainly was sexist when I pointed out that we are different but you suggested based on my comment you would rest your case. However my post was not sexist.

Most assumptions we make are based on experience. The things we do as a pilot are a very good examples of tempering assumptions with experience and a little academic know how.

[ShyTorque]

I have no desire to get into any political treatise as my comments were solely directed at (thankfully a minority) a group of male pilots who still think women should be chained to the kitchen sink.

Women should definitely not be chained to the kitchen sink.

How on earth could they reach the lawnmower if that were so?

Whirls, stop all this silliness and just pop along and make us all a cup of tea, there's a love.

[Whirlygig]

For example, Whirly you assume most men are sexist,
No I don't. Most men, in my experience, are completely egalitarian; it's just the few old dinosaurs. I have consistently said throughout, "the minority".


But women arent equalCan you not see why I could construe that comment to be sexist? You didn't use the word, "different"; you said, "Are not equal".

ShyT, ha ha very funny .... yeah, when you've finished putting up the shelves and putting some oil in my car.

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

yeah, when you've finished putting up the shelves and putting some oil in my car.

On your bike.....ooops, sorry. Put that on the list, too. ;)

[Whirlybird]

That's 'cause nobody can hover and write, your hands and feet are full of flight controls!

I can! As a helicopter instructor, I'm ambidextrous on all the controls, so I hold the cyclic in my left hand, and I can let go of the collective for long enough to write. Jeez...doesn't everyone know that? Nah, they don't.... any more than they all know what it's like to be a woman pilot in the predominantly male world of aviation! After all, why would you> so let me help to enlightoen you....

My old friend Whirlygig is quite correct in most of what she says...and for those of you who don't know me, since I haven't been here for months, we're NOT the same person. So, I'm sorry, but there are TWO female helicopter pilots in the world who have encountered discrimination! Maybe no others; how would I know. And, in my case, not that often, not from everyone, and after a lot of years in aviation, it doesn't bother me....that much. But that doesn't make it right. And it also doesn't mean you should be questioning whether it's ever happened to Whirls, and demanding that she accept it. Why the hell should she? IO540, I thought better of you, I really did. And don't ask me to say exactly which of five pages of posts I'm responding to - I just read the lot all at once, and I'm replying to my general impressions. If you don't like that - well, I'm quite used to not being liked; I've been on PPRuNe a long time.

However, I'm a bit busy these days, so now I'll just go away again and leave you to your discussion, but hey, I did enjoy it, and it's nice to see so many familiar faces still around. ;)

Bye for now,

Whirly - the original one, and don't forget that!

[mary meagher]

Well, girls and boys, I have just realised that here is an irresistable thread for me to set you all to rights, and share with you a few entertaining and relative moments!

First of all, whirlybird, whirlygig, and fernytickles, there are still major difficulties that account for a shortage of female aspriants in aviation. To whit, as pointed out by 10540, women don't have the MONEY and they don't have the TIME! If a woman fancies a career of any sort, it all too often implies that starting a family must be deferred. Or altogether, forgotten, like by my Aunt Laura who was a single lady, a physician, and vice president of the American Medical Association in 1900!

I had 4 children while still young and beautiful, and looked after them and my spouse, who decided to swap me for a younger model when he was 48. I decided to do something reckless, had my ears pierced, and went for a ride in a glider.

Now after l,200 hours of power, PPL, IR and seaplane rating , being Tugmaster, Instructor at a gliding club, a triple diamond holder with 1,800 hours in gliders and representing Great Britain in the Women's European Championships in the Soviet Union -( that dates me, doesn't it?) I cannot deny that gender as well as family have kept me from a lucrative career in aviation. You don't get rich being a flying instructor, even in the USA.

Men do not have to choose between having children or becoming pilots, they can do both because they have the money and the time. But there is a downside. The working partner is expected to fund the raising of children. And women live longer.

* * * *

I shall leave you with a little story. Flying a Supercub 150 towplane, pulling up a Kl3 glider, I realised the truly terrible performance was due to the fact that the K13 airbrakes were open. As speed decayed, we staggered to 300' and rather than signal by wagging the rudder (as prescribed) I chickened out and dumped the glider.
The gliding instructor and student safely landed the K13 in a handy field.

When writing the report, I managed to avoid mentioning gender throughout. Would never have heard the end of it, because Tuggie, Instructor, and Student Pilot were all women.

Now, alas, due to age and decay, I am reduced to flying only with a safety pilot.....
and yakking on PPruNe, like all the other old forts....

We may not all be included in the term Fraternity, or Band of Brothers, but we are certainly all Kindred Spirits. And the best of us do look after each other.

[Jan Olieslagers]

we are certainly all Kindred Spirits. And the best of us do look after each other. Well said. It leaves me with the question of counterspirits in our realm.

-) sexism - as already discussed exhaustively
-) big ego's, most frequently found in new instructors
-) pilots wanting to show off how clever/great/able they are
-) ....?

[IO540]

I cannot deny that gender as well as family have kept me from a lucrative career in aviation.Could you explain how?

I see a fair number of women airline pilots. I am sure there would have been straight discrimination decades ago, and widespread too, but that is then and now we are in 2011.

Aviation is not a lucrative career. Sure you can make 50k or even 100k after some years but that is just a well paid steady job which can be used to pay for a house in the country, a horse, a 4x4, maybe 2 kids in private schooling, but what have you got to show for all that in the end? Sod all. Just a load of stress, and writing cheques all the time. Been there, done that. And I see it all the time where I live (Sussex). You haven't missed anything, and IMHO had a much more interesting life than as an airline pilot. You did well to get rid of your husband nice and early, too.

Men do not have to choose between having children or becoming pilots, they can do both because they have the money and the timeThat is true only for an exceptionally successful yet shrewd and well organised businessman, and they are very rare. The only people I know who have both are retired businessmen who sold up businesses for some millions, allowing them to retire with plenty of money and time. They are not exactly common, and all are in their 60s, having basically knackered themselves. I don't think their life expectancy is all that great.

Below that level of success, men face a sharp money v. time tradeoff.

Also great many male pilots give up flying once the "sprogs" start dropping. The wife implements a clampdown on "dangerous activities incompatible with a family man", and the bank balance takes care of the rest.

[Pilot DAR]

-) big ego's, most frequently found in new instructors
-) pilots wanting to show off how clever/great/able they are


That's why I'm delighted to have grey hair, hang around with other pilot who I either know, or at least think, have grey hair, and take flying instruction from instructors with grey hair. Item 1 above is well settled already, and item 2 is either settled, or truely worth watching!

I recognize the reality that new pilots have to gain experience somewhere, but I'm not sure that teaching newer pilots is the best place for it. As has been previously said here, it creates a heritage of inexperience. But it's a necessary system, and my complaining about it won't help anyone.

In keeping with my original theme here, I do like to draw in those new instructors, as I would any pilot, when I have the opportunity, but I have bumped into a few egos!

As for the showing off, that takes care of itself over time (if you survive). I have learned a lot of what not to do - too much of that, first hand. Hopefully, our sharing it here, over time, will help other pilots avoid those mistakes themselves. The trick is to see the swiss cheese holes lining up in time to stop it, before you fall through.

But, am I drifting from my own drift on this thread? I've kinda lost track! Another few pages, and we should have every problem in aviation worked out!

[Pilot DAR]

The wife implements a clampdown on "dangerous activities incompatible with a family man",

Oh, I don't know.... Mine encouraged me to put the optional kiddy seat in the back of the 150! (or borrow the 182 RG)

[Fuji Abound]

Aequalis, that is where equal comes from and means identical or the same as, just as we use the term in maths. As i thought we had agreed girls and boys are not equal, but if you prefer, yes we are different.

Whirls it is good to see you posting; the debate is really interesting, and i hope your concerns stay in the minority.

For me i would rather treasure our differences, rather than dwell on our similarities, for i think in some respects we are more similiar than we give credit.

Equality promotes equal rights; it requires that where there are no differences they are not artficially created, but if it fails to recognise our inequality then its just as devisive as discrimination.

[PompeyPaul]

It totally sums up the pilot zoo that is pprune. Monsieur Joe 90 Dar starts off with a great post about how we should remember that we're all part of a big club.

7 pages in we're all squabbling, about sexism ?

I took some chums flying the other day and we discussed the "culture" of ppls. It's a funny old thing. To fly you need some dosh and so are generally quite successful in your life. Successful people are usually used to getting their own way, all of the time. So you have a whole bunch of people who get their own way most of the time, together in a group where, by definition, not everybody can get their own way. It's not suprising pprune is 40% flame wars!

The wonderful counter balance that if you mess up you pay the ultimate price just stokes those fires a little stronger.

Great post Dar, great flame war everyone. Never let it be said PPrune can't find something to argue about! Even when the opening line is "we all decided to join the same club" it's not suprising somebody responds with "No I didn't!"

[IO540]

I think you will find the "flame wars" in this case were kicked off by 1 or 2 people.

It's a pity.

But yes, getting pilots to work together is like herding cats. It's quite a problem for volunteer organisations in GA. Most of the volunteers have big egos. This is how US AOPA is so successful: they have normal full-time paid execs at the top.

[Monocock]

Whirlygig

Might I suggest that you now read this whole thread from start to finish and see how you are actually coming across? It is quite unbelievable.

[24Carrot]

For the record, 'aviator' is a gender-neutral term.

Wikipedia has a 'List of Aviators', which has both kinds of aviators in it.

In my Oxford Dictionary, an aviator is 'a pilot'. An aviatrix is 'a female pilot'.

The online Merriam-Webster has aviatrix as 'a woman who is an aviator', coined around 1910.

So if you want to go out on a limb and convey the sense of 'Actual women! Actually flying!', go ahead and use 'aviatrix' and 'aviatrices'. My guess is that the newspapers invented the words for exactly those headlines.

It is foolish to think you can determnine the meaning of modern English words by reference to what Greeks and Romans were supposedly saying thousands of years ago. A television is not a telescope. Phugoid oscillations have nothing to do with law enforcement.

And surely all those thousands of years ago, aviation was for birds, not people. I did a year of history at school, so I must be an expert!;)

[Katamarino]

This whole discussion seems ridiculous to me. Admittedly I'm one of the more junior members of the aviation community, at the age of 27, but I have never seen even a hint of sexism in any of my 500+ hours around airfields and in airplanes. I'm an engineer, and I can say the same about my workplace too; the younger generation seem entirely blind to peoples sex in the professional environment, and at least in my office, the female engineers seem to get preferential, rather than negative, treatment from the older generation.

Indeed, in aviation I have only ever met one person who was immediately rude, arrogant, and presumptive; and that was a female instructor at our club. Oddly enough, I haven't judged all women pilots based on her.

[Monocock]

Well said that man.

What has it come to when a female pilot is asked by someone if her husband minds her flying and the immediate assumption is one of sexism. Many people ask me if my wife minds if I fly and I have never taken that as a sexist comment about my gender.....:ugh:

[Jan Olieslagers]

in my office, the female engineers seem to get preferential, rather than negative, treatment

which is on the long term just as negative - but I do have observed this same phenomenon at other places.

[24Carrot]

Sounds like banking. The way women get treated has everything to do with lawsuit avoidance, and nothing to do with gender equality.

[fernytickles]

IO540

Most of the volunteers have big egos

Now I'm going to go off on yet another tangent. I really have to take issue with that comment as it is a very sweeping and inaccurate generalisation.

Of the over 4000 volunteers who run AirVenture, I think you'd fine only a tiny percentage of them have big egos. Obviously it is high time you made the visit to Oshkosh and joined in the fun here - then you could see for yourself what a fantastic community spirit there is and how much fun it is to volunteer with a great bunch of people.

[mary meagher]

Give it a rest, girls.

I like what Pompey Paul said earlier. You need dosh to fly, so need to have been successful to acquire the dosh, put all these middle aged egos together in a committee, and there you have a flying club! ....and regular backstabbing, gossip, conspiracy, toys thrown out of the pram. walking off in a huff....and that's just the boys!

I remember the scene in the film "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!"
where all the men are fighting each other as to who will command the "Glocester Island" volunteers - all armed with a variety of hoes, rakes, shotguns, deer rifles, against a Russian Sub in the harbour armed with a very large piece of ordinance....

And in despair, the Deputy Sheriff tears his hair and says

"Why can't everybody just get along?"

(because we actually enjoy slagging each other off!)

[IO540]

Of the over 4000 volunteers who run AirVenture, I think you'd fine only a tiny percentage of them have big egos.

That's not the UK though, is it?

Also, who is at the very top?

[Whirlybird]

I had some thoughts, and some sleep, and came back....

Firstly, that word "fraternity". I think you'd all agree that the main purpose of writing is communication. Well, when I saw the title of this thread I just assumed it was another thread along the lines of a few others we've had in the past like how to get the wife interested in flying. Frternity means brotherhood. It's male-orientated by definition. It has those connotations. So I'm sorry, Pilot DAR, and I love the sentiments, but as a writer I've got to tell you that Community would have been far better.

Secondly, as to the sentiments expressed in that first post. Well, I'd love it if they were all true, and I've met some lovely people in aviation. But I've also met some downright sods too. Just like the rest of the world in fact. Maybe take off your rose-coloured spectacles. On second thoughts, don't - until someone else does it for you. Why be as old and cynical as I am.

Next, Whirls' comment that sexism seems to exist mainly in fixed-wing aviation. Well, Whirls my friend, if that's your experience, who am I to argue with it? But I wonder if it isn't that it's commonest among the general public, less so in private aviation, and almost non-existent in commercial aviation. Which could explain why I get mistaken for the tea lady when doing helicopter trial lessons, ignored and then apologised to when flying to a fly-in with a male passenger, but treated with the utmost respect in the commercial flying world. And when I went to interview Kirsty Moore, first female Red Arrows pilot, for an article, and sat in on one of their briefings, I was impressed by the fact that she was treated no differently from anyone else. I shouldn't have to be impressed, but I was, because it's still so rare. The forces are super-professional - and non-sexist. So are younger men, which could explain my GA versus commercial flying experience...but I don't know. But anyway, actually all any of us women want is to be treated 'normally' - not better, not worse, not the same, not differently, just normally. That's what I originally liked about the BWPA - that's how it was; I was just a pilot, not a woman pilot, not great, not awful, not a minority, not anything to write home about, but just someone who could merge into the background. It's the reason I'm still a member. It would be nice if they didn't need to exist, but well...they seem to provide something for nearly 400 women. Got to be a reason. Don't tell me we just like paying subs for the fun of it.

Finally, Mary Meagher, things have changed. Women no longer have to choose between career and family. The reasons for the minority of women in aviation are more somplicated and subtle than that. Let me leave you with a conversation I had just a few years ago with a 16 year old pilot, an Air Cadets high flyer, who soloed in minimum hours and for whom a great future in aviation was predicted...

Me: Why are there so few girls in the air cadets.
Her: Well, it's a boy thing isn't it?
Me: But why?
Her (shrugging): Just is.

Well, now I know...

[vee-tail-1]

When I first flew in the RAF the married guys got more pay!
When off duty on the Cornish beaches my single mates would join me in surfing the big waves. But one by one they vanished as girl friends became wives. Later in BOAC the first topic of conversation once climbing with autopilot engaged was... "Are you on your first or second divorce? How did you hide your money? How come you escaped and are still single?... Watch out for the 'A' stewardess she's a man eater!"
Later on the Classic 747 all the stewards were gay, and all the stewardesses were feminists or married, or both. But by then I had indeed married and was in the process of divorce... which cost me dear both in money and mental health. Not surprising then that my opinion of women was of a dangerous alien species, that can be functional or decorative but never both. But then the first women pilots appeared on the 747 and my opinion of women had to change. For the first time ever I had breakfast in N York with a female pilot and we talked aviation nonstop without the slightest patronization or hidden agenda from her. Amazingly for me here was a person with the true ability and passion for flying that I had associated only with men. Not only that but she was attractive and fun to be with. This pilot and others like her have pretty well demolished my earlier misogyny, but I am a bit worried about the modern trend for young female airline pilots to show a hint of cleavage within their uniform.
There should be a notice on the flight deck door: "Please leave your emotional & sexual baggage outside" ;)

[fernytickles]

vee-tail-1

"Please leave your emotional & sexual baggage outside"

That goes for the oversized watches & too tight trousers the women have had to endure for all these years too.....:E

IO-540

Also, who is at the very top?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. :confused:

[ShyTorque]

Whirly:


Me: Why are there so few girls in the air cadets.
Her: Well, it's a boy thing isn't it?
Me: But why?
Her (shrugging): Just is.
Well, now I know...

This has also changed. The ATC Squadron that my daughter attends has a growing number of female cadets. The senior cadet is female, too.

[IO540]

I am a bit worried about the modern trend for young female airline pilots to show a hint of cleavage within their uniform.
There should be a notice on the flight deck door: "Please leave your emotional & sexual baggage outside"

Assuming they are doing it innocently (which I of course doubt) they are prob99 copying the High Street, where waists and boobs hanging out is de rigueur nowadays, regarldess of how much material is exposed :)

I like the rest of your early-years portrait, starting with the surfing scene :ok:

Reminded me of Big Wednesday (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077235/). (there's a fabulous pic for the gurls here :) ).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that

Only saying that if you have 4000 volunteers, you are not going to have a volunteer at the top running the whole thing. It will be a full time paid executive, who is recruited, and fired if necessary. Otherwise you will have mayhem.

That goes for the oversized watches & too tight trousers the women have had to endure for all these years too

Big watches are entirely optional :)

[youngskywalker]

Can men join the BWPA? And if not, why not?

Might start up the BMPA! ;)

[pulse1]

Article in latest Pilot magazine talks about the "helpful aviation community". Perhaps, if the OP had used that phrase instead of "fraternity", this thread could have covered that much more interesting issue as was probably intended.

[Whirlybird]

Yes, men can join the BWPA, and some do.
(Looks like I'm back on PPPuNe forums...sigh)

[Saab Dastard]

Welcome back Whirlybird, long time no see!

SD

[kevmusic]

Good to see you back, Whirly! :D

[mary meagher]

Hello Whirlybird, nice to make your acquaintance! Don't you just love the way these threads get sidetracked....and get more interesting as well!

I'm happy to agree that times have changed for women in the western world. Since Lillienthal and Orville and Wilbur cast off the surly bonds we have been recognised as equal partners in aviation, if we want to be (think of Harriet Quimby), or if we are badly needed - having the skills needed to deliver Lancasters etc from the factory to the forward bases in WWII.

But possibly the key to the scarcity of our sex in this peculiar pursuit does lie in your conversation with the talented air cadet. Why would a girl want to grow up to be a bus driver, after all? The men who end up in the pointy end seem to make a terrible hash of their family relationships, and many end up with a rather jaundiced view of women.

We have quite an active junior section in our gliding club,about 20 boys and girls from 13 to l7. One girl is quite serious, solo at 16, works very very hard. Three boys have soloed at 16. But the differences I observe in the teenage students are the same that appear in adult beginners: females suffer from underconfidence, males from overconfidence. Result of conditioning since birth?

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm just waiting for someone to quote John Grey (Men are from Mars...) on this horribly drifted thread, which started off with a bloke being thoughtful and saying thank you and then was hijacked by some people with an axe to grind.

The attitudes of some of the female posters here are unbelievable, I work in a female oriented environment, where there is no gender advantage and am used to working in equal partnerships.

I have to say that if confronted by some of the attitudes here, I would find it totally tiresome and would not accept such whinging - I know the women I work with would not take it, either.

As for conditioning, Mary do you mind me asking (respectfully) what knowledge you have in the area of psychology? Confidence is not built by conditioning (in the traditional sense), as the purpose is to train someone to react in a certain way to a certain stimulus. Of course, confidence in the new ability may develop as a consequence.

Having said that, personality and motivation equally have a part to play, as does culture.

I would say that younger men typically (but not always) display more bravado and younger women typically (but not always) tend to be a little more cautious, but that is a different set of labels to confident/under confident.

The women I work with are highly confident professionals, built on years of professional development.

[Whirlybird]

As for conditioning, Mary do you mind me asking (respectfully) what knowledge you have in the area of psychology? Confidence is not built by conditioning (in the traditional sense), as the purpose is to train someone to react in a certain way to a certain stimulus. Of course, confidence in the new ability may develop as a consequence.

Having said that, personality and motivation equally have a part to play, as does culture.

I would say that younger men typically (but not always) display more bravado and younger women typically (but not always) tend to be a little more cautious, but that is a different set of labels to confident/under confident.

Final 3 Greens, I would say, respectfully, that you're splitting hairs. Mary was using the term conditioning as it is generally used in everyday conversation. That seemed obvious to me, and by the way, I do happen to have a degree in psychology. My personal experience as an instructor is the same as Mary's - men think they'll be able to fly helicopters easily even when they're pretty hopeless; women think they can't do it even when they obviously can. And my personal observations throughout a life which, while not as long as Mary's, has been going on a while, is that little boys tend to get told they're really, really good at things, while little girls tend to be told they can't do things because they're not big enough/strong enough/ clever enough/whatever. You don't need a degree in anything to deduce that the latter might possibly lead to the former in later life. And yes, I'm making a generalisation, and there are exceptions. And yes, I do think that things are changing in the modern world. And finally, I haven't noticed any whinging on this thread, merely some discussion and a little thread drift. Why do you have a problem with that? And why should I take any notice of it if you do?

[Cusco]

Can men join the BWPA? And if not, why not?

Might start up the BMPA!


Too late, it already exists.................;);)

British Medical Pilots Association (http://www.bmpa.org.uk/)

Cusco.

[mary meagher]

Regarding the post from Three Greens, don't you just love that use of the word (respectfully? ) in parentheses? Like saying "with respect", actually meaning quite the opposite!!!!! Ah, the innuendos! the double entendres, the references to boobs and willywaving, where would we be without them?

( I actually do like being around men, I am used to them. Grew some of my own.)

[flybymike]

boobs and willywaving, where would we be without them?



That's the sort of man talk I like to hear...

[Final 3 Greens]

And why should I take any notice of it if you do?

Whether you take any notice is up to you.

Splitting hairs is a way of describing the application of some precision, in that sense you are correct, there is a whole heap of flaky stereotyping from some posters on this thread, which I am challenging.

don't you just love that use of the word (respectfully? ) in parentheses?

You interpret motive from a word that I added with genuine intent, to try to avoid the question sounding aggressive.

My personal experience as an instructor is the same as Mary's - men think they'll be able to fly helicopters easily even when they're pretty hopeless; women think they can't do it even when they obviously can

My experience as an OD/HRD professional in various sectors is that gender is much less a factor than IQ, EQ, education, culture, personality and motivation.

[Katamarino]

Ah, the innuendos! the double entendres, the references to boobs and willywaving, where would we be without them?


Careful mary, in a thread full of people moaning about stereotyping of females, this stereotyping of males might shoot their efforts in the foot! :ok:

Haven't we established by now that gender is pretty irrelevant to piloting, and we should all get a life and stop quibbling about it...

[Final 3 Greens]

Haven't we established by now that gender is pretty irrelevant to piloting, and we should all get a life and stop quibbling about it... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Fuji Abound]

Well if nothing else the OP has achieved his objective.

He has reminded us that we are really all friends in this community of ours, and in so doing, some of our "old" friends on this forum have re-appeared especially some of our old girl friends. (old in the sense they have long been contibutors to PPRuNe and girl friends, well, in the sense they are girls and part of our community of friends).

It is good to read their thoughts again.

[Pilot DAR]

some of our "old" friends on this forum have re-appeared

Indeed... I'm glad I kindled the fire (however unitentionally/misguidedly).

I will take this opportunity to add an element to the original theme of my very first post here... Gosh I wish I had followed my host's advice, and not flown RyanAir! Never again!

I made it back to London, and will shorty go and read all of the foregoing posts I missed in this thread, during my travel from Germany. I want to be sure to be right up to date!

On about the thread drift again now, sorry for the interruption.....

[Crash one]

Why is it that women can say what they like about sexism & being treated as second class etc, yet men have to watch what they say for fear of being considered non PC?
Women are different to men, they always have been & no amount of "equality" is going to change that. They should be treated with the same respect as men, but no more.
If you hold a door open for a woman nowadays you get a look that says, "I can manage thank you!" If you don't, you get a look that says "Ignorant bastard!"
So, Women, get a grip, get a life, & give us a break! We are all in this together. Fraternity/community what the hell is the difference?:yuk:

[fernytickles]

Fraternity/community what the hell is the difference

Surely you mean "fraternity/sorority/community what the hell is the difference"?

[Whirlybird]

You can open a door for me or not, as you like; it doesn't bother me. However, I do get ever so mildly upset if I spend two hours talking about my last flight, and then you look at me in amazement and say, "Oh, do you fly then?" It's happened, I kid you not (And by the way, Whirls, it was a helicopter pilot!). And after the 10th, 20th, maybe 30th time of such a thing, is it really surprising if I get ever so slightly pissed off about it? Sorry, but I'm human and imperfect. I apologise for that, and now thanks for the welcome, but maybe I'll go back into my hole and sleep like Rip van Winkle for another few years of so.

[Katamarino]

Did you ever think that you might just be talking to idiots, rather than jumping straight to the sexism conclusion?

[fernytickles]

"Oh, do you fly then?"

Or "Oh, do you fly then? Just small planes, right?"

To which the standard response is "luckily for you, size isn't everything".... :}

[Whirlybird]

Did you ever think that you might just be talking to idiots, rather than jumping straight to the sexism conclusion?

Errr.... you used the word sexism, I didn't. Call it what you like. Of course I was talking to an idiot, and, like I said, you get fed up after the 30th time of something similar. Just for the record, when he saw my expression, he followed it up with, "Well, most women can't fly. I mean, my wife doesn't fly". I think it's called digging a hole and then making it deeper.

[IO540]

Well, he was an idiot.

Lots of them about.

50% of them are male and 50% of them are female.

It's quite staggering to realise that 50% of the population is below average intelligence. That's a LOT of people (a few billion) so one is bound to come across them here and there.

[Final 3 Greens]

"Well, most women can't fly.

Seems statistically unassailable, to me.

Now when I think about it, most men can't fly either.

And if I took offence when people are surprised that I can, then I would have done so many, many times over the years.

Mind you, I don't often talk about flying for two hours to non aviators, to be honest most people find it quite boring.

IO - agree about the distribution of idiots :ok:

[Crash one]

Whirlybird, I would suggest you spend less time talking to idiots.

Or "Oh, do you fly then? Just small planes, right?"

To which the standard response is "luckily for you, size isn't everything".... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Anyone who refers to "Just small planes" is no aviator for a start.
Why should it be "luckily for him"? What is lucky about it?

[Fuji Abound]

However, I do get ever so mildly upset if I spend two hours talking about my last flight, and then you look at me in amazement and say, "Oh, do you fly then?"


Two hours talking about one flight - now I know you girls can talk the hind leg off .. .. .. but that is something.

I have had a few more "exciting" flights than I would wish but never managed to talk about one of those for that long. ;)

Personally I think it might have been a wind up - I can imagine making a similiar comment but NOT for the reasons you might imagine.

Why is it pilots have to spend their whole lives talking about flying - what is the old joke about how you spot a pilot.

[Whirlybird]

Perhaps I should have been clearer...

There was a group of us, at a helicopter weekend, ALL talking about flying, for...two hours might be a bit of an exaggeration, ok? The idiot in question was a private owner and helicopter pilot - lots of money, no brains. He singled ME out for the comment. It didn't take a degree in rocket science or logic to realise it was because I was the only woman there. He wasn't remotely surprised that the others were pilots; after all, it was a helicopter flying weekend. What else would I have been doing there?

Phew...I think I'm getting tired of this. Trust me, I was being treated differently because I was a woman. I was there; I should know. And like I said, this is far from a rare occurrence. That's all.

[Fuji Abound]

but if it was a helicopter week end and you were talking (knowledgeably) about piloting then it must have been fairly obvious you were a pilot.

If, as you say, he was a pilot, then he couldnt have been completely stupid, (after all he must have passed navigation, even if you can be stupid and pass air law) so he must have been taking the p***.

Now taking the p*** is definitely not sexist. I know some girls who are able to take the p*** a lot better than most men (carefully worded as not intended to suggest that one sex is any better, or should be better, or should be presumed to be better at taking the pi**).

So, I put it to you, he was doing just that, or, if he wasnt, he thought he was being clever, which he wasnt, unless of course he was fed up with people talking about flying and happened to choose you for a dig, in which case, respectfully, perhaps the whole group should have found something more interesting to talk about (says he with far too many posts on PPrUnE).

.. and so what did you say back to him?

[Whirlybird]

Fuji, he wasn't taking the piss. Banter is fine with me. But he was 100% serious. Despite my having been joining in a typical aviation conversation in which it should have been obvious that I was a pilot, he really didn't think it possible that I was one. Everyone else saw it that way too. In fact, some of the guys told me afterwards that they were very embarrassed on my behalf, and felt like they should apologise and make it clear all men weren't like that, but I told them not to worry. the whole male half of the human race doesn't need to apologise for one idiot - and as far as I'm concerned he's an idiot, however many flying exams he managed to pass.

What did I say? To be honest, I was so surprised that I didn't say anything. I was left speechless, which doesn't happen often; what was there to say? That was when he picked up on...something, and added the bit about his wife not flying. Then someone changed the subject, and that was that.

But the point I've been trying to make is that this incident is by no means unique. Similar things have happened to me many times, and to other women pilots I know too. I could give you more examples. I realise it surprises you. But seriously, that is the way things are for women in the world of aviation, even in the 21st century.

[Fuji Abound]

I see, but wouldnt you by now have some stock repost?

Clearly something not too subtle, or it might be lost.

[Jan Olieslagers]

It's quite staggering to realise that 50% of the population is below average intelligence.

Nothing staggering me - what is YOUR definition of "average" ? Or did I miss some very fine kind of subtlety, perhaps, as happened to me before?

[AfricanEagle]

private owner and helicopter pilot - lots of money, no brains

Not much to add, not an aviator.

[Pilot DAR]

It's quite staggering to realise that 50% of the population is below average intelligence.

Uh... IO.... isn't 50% of the population below any average for that population?

Oh my god! I might have just triggered a multi page discussion about "average" vs "mean" vs "median", and some latin terms I don't know.....

[IanPZ]

I'll tell you something pilotdar. Some days it feel like a full 90+% of the population is below average intelligence! As for ryanair, doh!!! Is all I can say, were there even seats in the plane? :-) welcome back

[kevmusic]

Can't help but feel there's some big resonance with this about now:

YouTube - ‪Cheap Flights with subtitles‬‏

[IO540]

Uh... IO.... isn't 50% of the population below any average for that population?

Oh my god! I might have just triggered a multi page discussion about "average" vs "mean" vs "median", and some latin terms I don't know.....

I was taking the micky of a typical Daily Mail (a UK newspaper for the somewhat intellectually challenged) headline which goes something like

SCANDAL: 50% of schools are below average

when of course 50% will be, because that is how "average" is defined.

and as far as I'm concerned he's an idiot, however many flying exams he managed to pass.

You don't need to be bright to pass the PPL exams. The JAA IR exams are no more demanding intellectually but they are a whole lot bigger, to make sure only those really really determined will get through.

[Pilot DAR]

I was again reminded of the delightful group that is PPRuNe, when I had the pleaseure of meeting three more Prooners in Europe last week, in addition to the great pleasure I had meeting yet another last fall in France. What a fun bunch!

The bash is a super idea, and I wish I could have attended. But, I could not sway my client's requirements to allow me to be near the UK that week, and indeed will be in South America, so my attendance will be hopeless!

I hope that all the Prooners who can make it, have a blast, and really appreciate what a worthwhile group we are, face to face, as well as in text!

[Katamarino]

It was a great pleasure to catch up with you at Schiphol Pilot DAR - I hope we get the chance to meet up again soon!

[BackPacker]

Likewise. Have fun in Chile!

[Grob Queen]

Wow, what a thread!! Firstly, PilotDar, what a great original post as the others have said, and I must say, within my short experience of aviation from the flying side, apart from a few idiotic PPruners, I have found everyone fantastic, welcoming and being super helpful to me as a stude and willing to pass on their greater knowledge.....be they male or female.

I have spent all my career in a male dominated environment...I have had many old F**ts (male and female) patronise me. One example of such in my professional life was (and this from a female) "I suppose this is all gobledegook to you" when I was lecturing her group on the history of the Battle of Britain...I could list many such incidents and even "oh, you're a girl" or "can I speak to the Curator please", "the new Curators a very young girl, she doesn't know anything" (as an aside I was 29 at the time of this comment!)

Therefore sexism in a male dominated world does not phase me anymore, i'm used to it. The RAF are great, no problems with serving chaps, and I for one am pleased when a man wishes to behave like a gent and pull my chair out for me at dinner or open the door and let me go through it first. I never used to like this, I always used to flare, but now i realise that well, it is rather nice.

My current work colleagues are VERY un-PC, but I don't mind, I give as good as I get and its all good banter. i think maybe sometimes females take themselves and this PC stuff all too seriously. Yes, we should not return to pre-suffragette era, oh no! But I do think we have gone too far the other way sometimes.

As to my flying training. I of course have not yet been on the sharp end of aviation long enough to add much to the debate of sexism in the aviation community. however, what I can say is that I am the only female member of our club and I have received nothing but respect from 98% of the boys. Is this due to my eagerness to muck in with everything ? Maybe, but I love it and I WANT to be as involved as possible, and am considered as just like any other student pilot learning their sport. There are three members who are pains. One of whom is not a pilot but a social member. Until I had words with our CFI on the way this chap was treating me, he treated me like a god, as though i was something truly amazing as he had never met a female pilot before. he took photos at every opportunity even when i was flying solo and taxying back, he got (and still gets) in the way and won't be told. In fact this got to the creepy stage... Also, when planning our annual Fly-In last year, one of the members wives asked if I would bake some cakes....I asked whether she had also asked the single male members...and stated that I had not baked for about 20 years!! She got the message :E

But from my point of view (and maybe other female pilots) I want to be treated as a pilot (ok, then, Student Pilot before anyone corrects me on the fact that I don't have that brown booklet yet! ;)) When I am at the club I leave my gender behind and get on with the flying.

Whilst dinosaurs exist, we are never going to get rid of sexism in aviation or anywhere else for that matter. but we can at least alleviate it by female pilots showing that we are equal in our skills to our male colleagues and perhaps even more importantly to the male community who are not aircrew. I believe it was Maggie Thatcher who said that to get on in a male dominated world, a female has to be twice as good as her male counterparts. Something which I strive to be in my professional life.

I leave you with a comment written by a female ATA Lanc pilot...she had just delivered a Lanc to the Squadron and when she stepped out of the aircraft, the bemused aircrew said "Did YOU just fly that?!" Lovely!

[taybird]

Those people that know this username will know that the bird bit is intentional. I've been in aviation since 1999 (after a previous 2 year jaunt with the ATC). I've managed to achieve a fair amount - again, those that know me know exactly how much - and I've not experienced much in the way of overt prejudice. I'm sure there have been more subtle 'ism but I choose not to be bothered by these things. I'm just not bothered who people think flew the aeroplane that just landed (unless it was a guff landing, in which case it was definitely the other person)

What I have learned is that the people worth knowing are the people who will treat you on a meritocratic basis, rather than those who will judge on the basis of appearance.

Aviation is a world in which, amongst those who do it, there is no reasonable disadvantage on the basis of gender. There are few pursuits where this is the case, and it is true that there are far fewer women actually interested in it than men. But those that are, are as good as men are in the same relative proportions. IMO, that is, I don't have any statistically significant evidence.

I do appreciate gentlemanly behaviour in the right circumstance. It's respectful and thoughtful and I am flattered. But when I have any sort of overalls on, be it engineering, flying or otherwise, my rules are that men can fart, swear, and scratch their balls as much as they like and I will not be offended. After I've crawled down the tail of an aeroplane to clean and grease an elevator idler people see that I do stand by those rules and I'll muck in just the same.

I love aviation, and I've met and fly with some wonderful people. I enjoy challenging perceptions, so on the rare occasion of inappropriate behaviour, I see it as a chance to prove them wrong, not as a personal sleight. And that's really just an opportunity to do whatever I'm doing, to the best of my ability, and who doesn't enjoy that?

Btw not that long ago, we had a period of time at my home airfield where the tower was "manned" by a woman, the only circuit traffic was an aeroplane flown by me with a female commercial pilot as pax, with the police heli passing through also piloted by a women. The entire ATZ was female for about 15 minutes. Fact is, people fly!

[fwjc]

It's interesting how some people have such a strong reaction to perceived inequalities.

The Police is an example, and female Police officers in particular. In some Forces you can tell if an officer is male or female by the number on their shoulder. Some women say this is discriminatory and wrong. Yet there are other women who demand to be referred to as WPC Jones, as opposed to PC Jones. What is all that about? On the one hand, it's wrong to identify a female officer as female, and on the other hand, it's wrong to not identify a female officer as such.

You just can't win.

[tmmorris]

Oddly enough I have just come back from an annual asthma assessment and the nurse admitted she'd always wanted to be a pilot, but at her girls' grammar school she was ridiculed and never seriously pursued it. Apparently her ambition was to fly a BAe 146. I said that it was never too late, even though she would possibly not get in anything bigger than a PA28 (she's a very... experienced nurse so a bit late for a change of career!) Sad that these things went on. Being a nurse is just as technical, responsible, &c. as being a pilot.

Tim

[peterh337]

I've made a good number of great friends through flying. It's a very good community.

As for getting ridiculed, this has always gone on and aviation in particular suffers from a load of patronising old farts; most of them being instructors who want to keep you in your place so you keep hiring their beaten up wreckage on which the last "licensed engineer" practically emptied the labelling machine just making up the INOP stickers. These people will feed you any amount of bull to stop you from getting out on your own and god forbid buying your own decent plane so you can go places. And I am a bloke - or was when I last looked walking up the hill a short time ago.

It's a pity this thread got hijacked early on by the feminist crowd.

[Pilot DAR]

"I suppose this is all gobledegook to you"

Yup! I blundered into this once, and learned my lesson hard.

30 years ago I happened upon a store in Exeter which specialized in used Meccano. I am a serious Meccano enthusiast. I very foolishly asked the female behind the counter when the owner of the shop would retuen, I had some questions. She declared that she was the owner, very promptly and precisely answered all of my questions, and put me in the place I belonged. I bought quite a bit of Meccano from her.

[Grob Queen]

You just can't win.

Unfortunately too true.....:hmm: Such is the way of human nature. I had a brilliant joke through about female pilots which a male (non-pilot) friend of mine sent - made me giggle, especially after having read this thread last night.

last "licensed engineer" practically emptied the labelling machine just making up the INOP stickers.

Back onto a more aviation related topic ;) Peter, I was interested by your comment above. Forgive my ignorance but methinks that if ANY instruments are u/s in an aircraft, then the whole aircraft is u/s and not flown?! In our club this is certainly the case. The only thing we will fly with (as I do frequently) is a DI which throughout a lengthy navex requires realigning with the compass. My QFI explained that this is because the instrument is just old, but it is a fault that we know about and can live with. I would be interested to hear what the experience is of those experienced ladies and gentlemen :ok: ppruners. Thanks

[riverrock83]

I've flown with all of the radio nav instruments U/S and a dodgy com radio. Not an issue when doing PPL training when I'm being taught to navigate using dead reckoning (and the second com worked fine). Eventually all the radio nav instruments were removed...
It does depend on the instrument. Sounds like you should start a new topic on this though rather than hi-jacking this one GQ!

[Grob Queen]

Sounds like you should start a new topic on this though rather than hi-jacking this one GQ!


Ok, fair point RR, it shall be done!! ;)
GQ

[Whirlybird]

Another year goes by, and there is still more to be said here on how women - and men - are, or aren't, treated differently. A bit sad really. Will things ever change?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Will things ever change?

They do. Actually very few things remain constant (no need to mention the two certitudes of death and tax, I suppose) but very few things change overnight. A couple of centuries' patience will see many problems solved - but an alarming number of new problems will have emerged meanwhile.

Surely progress is a slow thing. At best, that is.

[Pilot DAR]

Hi Prooners... How was the bash? I was thinking of you, and wondering if you were all "PC" face to face! Though I was an ocean and a continent away, I was thinking of you all.

To my delight, while you were bashing, I was being very warmly entertained by yet another Prooner, known well to us all...

Hopefully you all got on so well, that the bash will become an annual event, and I can catch up next year....

[Final 3 Greens]

Will things ever change?

Oh dear.

I'm working Saudi Arabia this week.

Some people dont realise how green the grass is, on their own side of the fence.

[Katamarino]

Hi Pilot DAR; no bash, due to poor visibility. They're going to try again next week, although sadly I won't be able to attend!

[peterh337]

I don't know what the fuss is about.

Apart from some comical situations where some airport worker cannot believe the woman was a pilot (occuring mostly in 3rd world countries like Spain) women get preferential treatment in all aspects of aviation that I have seen.

When you get young women doing work experience in aviation engineering, everybody in the firm bends over backwards to help them out. Of course, they don't really like that ;)

When you get women doing PPLs, everybody at the school bends over backwards to help them out. Of course, they don't really like that, either ;)

In employment, things are different in small companies but in a very small company this is necessary because you cannot recruit a woman of obvious child bearing disposition (how you judge that is somewhat tricky but you have to do your best; one generally goes on age) into a critical job especially as in ~90% of cases they exercise the maternity leave option in full but never come back. In a big company you work around this using generous staff numbers to even things out. This causes a lot of bitterness among women I am sure but having kids is a lifestyle choice, freely made. But this is nothing to do with aviation...

[goldeneaglepilot]

In employment, things are different in small companies but in a very small company this is necessary because you cannot recruit a woman of obvious child bearing disposition (how you judge that is somewhat tricky but you have to do your best; one generally goes on age) into a critical job especially as in ~90% of cases they exercise the maternity leave option in full but never come back.

Take care Peter - Employers have lost cases at tribunal in the UK for such discrimination. You're an employer and might want to consider how such a comment might be used against you by someone who did not get a job after interview.

[peterh337]

Obviously you cannot do this openly, but practically everybody does it. It's all part of running a very small company - you have to choose employees according to all kinds of criteria which might not be relevant in a big company.

The time limit for a claim is 3 months.

[Grob Queen]

When you get women doing PPLs, everybody at the school bends over backwards to help them out. Of course, they don't really like that, either http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif


I know your comment is meant to be ironic Peter, and 'tis taken as such...however, personally i'm very happy to take advice from my male friends and colleagues at our flying club...they bend over backwards to help because I am a student NOT because I am female!!! They also bend over backwards to help male students - as do I if I can...its the way we all are :)

[goldeneaglepilot]

Peter - You do seem well versed on this element of the law, however have you considered the potential in the future for a claim against you? What you have written on here could be used to support a claim in the future. Please be cautious as I'm certain that you dont intend to appear discriminatory against women. What you wrote could easily be misread.

[peterh337]

I agree with you GEP, and I have seen some obscene examples of claims elsewhere which were paid out because the insurance company said so (the claim being without merit but being only ~£20k) but if say you receive 500 CVs from a job advert, and you interview just 10 of them, and you are a very small business (of the order of 1 or 2 PAYE employees) it will be practically impossible for anybody to question how you picked those 10.

A funny one I heard a while ago: of the 500 CVs, you bin a randomly chosen 50%, on the basis that you don't want to employ unlucky people :E

[Pilot DAR]

Again, during my travels, I have been the recipient of excellent hospitality, and real aviation comradery (avoiding gender specific terms this time!) by both PPRuNers and yet to be PPRuNers. From being lent a beautiful 172 for my local travels for a few days, tours of amazing mountain scenery, to welcoming acommodation, the people of aviation are great.

I regret that another PPRuNer, who I am quite looking forward to meeting out here, was called away at the last minute, to serve our society in a way which is vitally needed right now. I'll catch up to him next time, and wish him a safe and rapidly successful mission....

We have received important wisdom from contributions of fellow (um, what's the gender non specific term with equals "fellow"?) Prooners, and we should all appreciate it - I do! They're even better in person!