Typhoon Pilots 'unfit for flying' Sent Home

[Grumpy106]

BBC News reported this morning that 2 Typhoon pilots from RAF Coningsby had been sent home from Italy for being unfit for flying following a night out, apparently. Anyone got any more on this?

[Mick Strigg]

If you cannot stay off the juice when on ops, then there is no place for you in our Armed Forces.

I say that they should be added to the Redundancy Tranche 1 list. No, on second thoughts, they would get cash for that; just sack them!

[jindabyne]

Good job you weren't around during the BoB then Strigg.

[forget]

Or the whole of the '60s. (... and, I imagine,the '50s.) :hmm:

[Red Line Entry]

What happened in the BoB has nothing to do with how the RAF should or should not conduct modern military operations; any more than how the English performed at Agincourt should influence the British Army. Without making comment on the specific cases involved, there is a simple rule:

If you cannot act professionally on ops, you shouldn't be on ops.

[newt]

Here we go again!! Jumping in before the facts are known!:ugh:

[ADUX]

Not only that - Hotel + Alcohol + Journalists = OPSEC shocker.

[philrigger]

;)


Is this a new incident or just a rehash of old news ?

[jindabyne]

RED,

Clearly a GSOH not in your bio - but I'll bet PC and H&S are :sad:

[cazatou]

According to CEEFAX incident happened at the end of March.

[Red Line Entry]

Jindabyne,

You're right, no GSOH in my bio. But there are a few ops in there...

(..and I've also stood over the grave of a mate who was killed because someone else didn't do their job properly)

[Wrathmonk]

According to CEEFAX incident happened at the end of March.

Think it had some bandwidth on here then .... but quickly got locked (perhaps even deleted) as it started, IIRC, to get a bit personal.

This incident will no doubt appear as more evidence as to why we should have retained (or regenerate) certain capabilities - but out of interest once committed to ops do the RN go dry on their boats/ships or is it 'ops normal' as far as the wardrooms are concerned?

[Lightning Mate]

Here we go again!! Jumping in before the facts are known!:ugh:

Good call Newt. :ok:

[rab-k]

BBC item link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-13538708)

[handleturning]

Think the facts are undisputed.

[jindabyne]

RLE

As I said --- :bored:

[Winco]

Newt

We will probably never get to know the facts. But the mere fact that the MOD put out a statement, using that kind of wording strongly suggests that it was a serious incident.

'fraid if you can't handle it sensibly, then don't handle it at all. Ultimately there are peoples lives at stake here and I wouldn't want some drunk on my squadron irrespective of what trade, rank or position he or she was.

Winco

[Heathrow Harry]

never mind the poor b******* they are supposed to be supporting on the ground in Libya

[Tourist]

Alcohol has no place in the cockpit, but it has a fantastic ability to de-stress and help with group bonding. Even the Yank doctor at CAMB supports it! Properly separated from flying I believe it is a good thing on ops. The recent dry sandy wars are just dull and soulless without it.

[Tacomato]

Aw come on guys, give the poor Typhoon pilots a break - they've never been on a proper detachment before - let alone on Ops!

Let's hope they got a note from their Mums first before leaving the UK...

[Training Risky]

I posted the original thread a few weeks ago when I heard it through the office grapevine, but the 2 characters probably slapped a superinjunction on the subject...and the thread disappeared quicker than a doughnut on John Prescott's plate.

I have it on good authority that they are quite senior officers...!:=

Better not say too much before I get arrested or my internet get discon....

[Heathrow Harry]

shirley not people desperate to get some sorties in for their CV or a Campaign Medal??

[Specaircrew]

I can honestly say that some of the best 'relaxation evenings' I've ever had have been when on 'Ops'! As I recall, getting sent home from Det is usually a pre-requisite for promotion if you're operational aircrew :D

It's pretty unusual to get deployed anywhere that you can have a drink these days so I'm glad to see that the chaps have a chance for the occasional night down the 'Squario'.

[Dengue_Dude]

I never . . . NEVER drank on ops (and only tea when ON ops).

Signed

DD (alias Pinnochio)

[Pontius Navigator]

According to the link:

Gerry Connelly, a retired Air Vice Marshal and former commander at RAF Wittering in Cambridgeshire,

The only thing missing is it didn't say if he was a former . . . pilot :}

[Lightning Mate]

The only thing missing is it didn't say if he was a former . . . pilot http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Well he was.

[Neptunus Rex]

Whatever punishment or 'administrative action' is taken will pale into insignificance compared with being on "Lads' Review" for having a temporary alcohol ban imposed at Gioia del Colle. That was a ridiculous knee-jerk reaction and an insult to all the other mates.

[Pontius Navigator]

How do you know?




Did he tell you?:E

[forget]

If there's any 'conduct prejudicial' here it's the individual who decided to make sure it hit the headlines worldwide and embarrassed the RAF. An on site bollocking with an unwritten withdrawal of privileges would have been much more useful - and effective. Just like it used to be.

[jindabyne]

How do you know?

You sound like the missus -- :ooh:

[hanoijane]

As a smiling PLAAF friend said to me today, 'It's good to see the way things are progressing in the West'.

[Party Animal]

Sound like perfect candidates to send to the Falklands. Absolutely no chance of drinking in that 'operational theatre' ;)

[Thomas coupling]

Their names are on T w i t t e r:ooh:

[Trim Stab]

Write up in the Sun:

RAF Top Guns found in gutter at 6am | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3600418/RAF-Top-Guns-found-in-gutter-at-6am.html)

[airborne_artist]

If you can get past the typos in the Sun ...

"RAF's Cyrpus HQ Akrotiri"

"... the limit to which crews should abide, but Torando and Typhoon pilots in Gioia have a reputation for hard-partying"

[Wander00]

Almost up to Grauniad standards

[minigundiplomat]

The groundcrew are a little quick to take the morale highground, I know of plenty that have taxed the diplomacy of many a Detco before now. However, there is no excuse for what happened, especially whilst so many are deployed on ops where there isn't even a two can rule - written or unwritten.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I do not know the details of this charge, so my comments are purely mine based on heresay. I don't subscibe to the two major social networking sites because I find them rather peurile and for me irrelevent. So a couple of mates got drunk whilst in Italy. Did the flying (Op) programme suffer? Did they fly whilst drunk? If the answer is no to both then they get a serious hats on interview with a suitable senior officer. If the answer is not no, then they are grounded pending a full but closed military enquiry. The press are told (if considered necessary) that the matter has been or is being dealt with and it is almost certain that the two mates would not be so daft in future.
RLE..(..and I've also stood over the grave of a mate who was killed because someone else didn't do their job properly) . Give me stength!....We've all stood at the graves of mates (in my case 20+ before I'd completed training.) who have been killed for a variety of reasons mostly unknown. If you are aircrew please tell me that you fly alone.
I have read the "Sun" report and think that a KneeJerk action has been taken by the Commander but it seems typical of this modern RAF..

[Stitchbitch]

Thank God some of you 'fun police' weren't about 15 years ago or we'd never have got anything done or had any fun whilst doing it...:rolleyes:
They're on Ops, they let their hair down and unwound. The only problem was getting caught doing so. Surely someone should have been watching their backs, and someone else should possibly have jumped in to help out the 'Coningsby two'. As for ground crew being pissed off...? Rough with the smooth.:ok:

[lj101]

So the facts are

2 Typhoon pilots went out for the night in Italy, were found by a local in a very drunk state, and were then sent home to UK.

Did anyone get hurt? No.
Did a Typhoon mission the next day get cancelled? No
Are they pilots involved in alot of trouble? Yes
Is there a no drinking rule enforced now due to their actions? Yes
Did the officer who enforced that knee jerk 'no drinking for anyone' reaction nearly get thrown out of the RAF for similar behaviour going through flying training? Yes

PSAB Gulf war 2003 no drinking rule - do you really think that happened? Damn stuff was everywhere.

Seen worse things happen on every op i have been on, and no i dont drink and fly but i don't live in la la land either.

Training Risky

Saw your spiteful little post naming those involved - what a decent mate you must be.

[Kengineer-130]

Typical total over reaction by all parties involved..... Yes being unfit to fly through drink is not clever, and very bad form, but it will be delt with by the unit & it should have stayed in the unit. Anyone who can put thier hand on thier heart and say they have NEVER been shabby "the morning after" is either a liar or in denial.

[minigundiplomat]

Surely someone should have been watching their backs, and someone else should possibly have jumped in to help out the 'Coningsby two'.


Agree 100%.

[Tankertrashnav]

Not on ops, but remember an occasion on tankers when a newish captain appeared for pre-flight planning obviously still under the influence from the previous night's heavy session. His older rear crew all suggested that he might have a heavy cold and be unfit to fly, but he refused to take the hint. They then all unanimously declared themselves medically unfit to fly, and when this unheard of state of affairs came to the notice of the boss, said captain received what he later decribed as the bollocking of his life. It was all kept in house, the guy learned a valuable lesson and later became a highly respected tanker captain.

I suppose these days with everyone watching their own backs this wouldn't happen, but I know which approach I prefer.

[Geehovah]

If the guys were on ops at any time the following day that really wasn't smart. I don't know of any commander in the Air Force who hasn't played a joker on occasion. Squadron cameraderie is important and I hope that aspect of Air Force life is never squeezed out. I, for one, wouldn't throw stones in my glass house.

[forget]

There's something not quite kosher about this whole thing. Too late now I suppose to test their blood for anything additional to alcohol? I spent time in the RAF when getting legless wouldn't raise an eyebrow but I never ever saw anyone reach the stage of 'lying in a gutter'. Let me think, Bugis Street, Cyprus, Malta, Oakham, Bahrain, Gan etc etc. Nope; never.

Typhoon pilots the night before shooting ops? Very strange.

[P6 Driver]

TOCU - early 1980's - not unknown for Tornado crews to shove some Brufen tablets down their necks and "walk" to the jet ten minutes earlier than required, in order to go on 100% oxygen before start-up to counter the effects of a large bar bill. They were not on ops, of course.

[airborne_artist]

The greatest crime is disobeying the eleventh commandment. Do they not teach that at Sleaford Tech?

[Just This Once...]

Geehovah:
If the guys were on ops at any time the following day that really wasn't smart.

I agree that this is the pivotal point and is the real reason the guys have taken a fair and justifiable amount of heat. Being an auth or the SOF carries quite a lot of responsibility even if you are not the chap actually flying the jet the very next day.

[AR1]

Read the article, which when you dig into it, is much ado about nothing - Hours before an operation? How many hours.

Sounds to me like they've been dealt with as a PR exercise for the locals more than anything else, as we dont know (but probably have a rough idea) what shennanagins have been going on from deployment day +1.

The super soaraway scum (our lads favourite) jumps in with hystrionics.

[jindabyne]

Sshh all you guys, or Red Line Entry will hear ---

[Failed_Scopie]

I assume that this situation wasn't kept in-house because it could not be kept in house; otherwise, pretty poor drills to let these two guys hang and everyone else to suffer afterwards. They presumably started the evening with some other officers - if it was getting out of hand the Sqn 2IC should have had a word in their shells like and if it was getting really out of hand they should have been bundled into a cab (with an escort) and told to see the OC Sqn in the morning when they had sobered up. Short of rape or murder, if a situation can be dealt with within the chain of command, then it should be. The bottom line is this - were they good guys who ****** up or were they social hand grenades? If the former, then the quality of mercy is not strained, if the latter then I guess it's AGAI 67 time.

The Army is not blameless in this regard, far from it. A Inf Bn CO (who I knew many years ago as a Lt MG Pl Comd) and his Bn 2IC got similarly trashed on ex in Eastern Europe a couple of years ago, much to the embarrassment of the DA. Luckily, it didn't make the Sun, although there were plenty of witnesses i.e. an entire Inf Bn. Both officers were sacked.

[Just This Once...]

Sqn 2IC should have had a word...and told to see the OC Sqn in the morning

err... umh... err

[4fitter]

Just this once - Doh:=

[handleturning]

Understandable sticking up for the boys here, but tbh for those of us who know the full story this one really isn't good.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Surely someone should have been watching their backs, and someone else should possibly have jumped in to help out the 'Coningsby two'.

You ARE joking aren't you?

If a bloke is trusted enough to strap the biggest boys toy in the world to his aerse and fly millions of pounds worth of kit around the sky and drop big bangs on people, I expect him to be able to wipe his own backside and keep it out of trouble. Anything else deserves a massive and long-lasting slap.

[A2QFI]

According to the widely respected Sun -

The Air Component Commander (ACC) in charge of operations was so furious he immediately slapped a two-week booze ban on the 700 RAF personnel — air and ground crew — at the airbase.
The dry zone was extended to all colleagues serving on Operation Ellemy, including those at an airstrip in Bari 100 miles away and at the RAF's Cyrpus HQ Akrotiri, where Nimrod and Sentinel spy planes are operating from.

Typical bit of heavyhanded, not thought through, over reaction. Deal with the guilty and let the innocent get on with their work and a bit of light drinking.

[Tourist]

Scopie

If thats a wah, its brilliant!:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

There is a total disconnect between the original thread on pprune and what has emerged in that paper. There have been some correcting rumours appearing here too but far be it from me to point to them.

However with modern communications things are clearly different from yesteryear and almost the same year as the Currant Bun was first published:

A large crowd was forming in a main street in Penang and getting bigger by the minute as our now venerable piper was entertaining one and all to a virtuoso performance. Immediately around the piper were a group of inconspicuous persons, long sleeved white shirts, properly tied ties etc, and on the periphery the growing crowd of Malays and other locals.

Into the group came a bunch of RAAF and RAF Police to break up the mob, possibly knock a few heads and restore order.

"Hello, hello, hello" or words to that effect, "Who's are you lot?"

"Wg Cdr Tanner, and who are you?"

"Er . . . , sorry Sir, but can you move on a bit, you're blocking the road."

They had about as much chance of doing anything as stopping an ice cream melting.

Oh, and we were on Ops with our trusty steeds the other side of a Strait and ferrys that stopped running at midnight.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

You ARE joking aren't you?
Of course an individual entrusted to fly any of HM's aircraft needs to be able to check his (or her) own six, but we fly in formation to look out for each other...not just because its fun. Same should apply on a night out.
for those of us who know the full story this one really isn't good.
So come on handleturning, tell us why we're mistaken to defend the guys.

[MG]

Yes Handleturning, really curious now! 'Isn't good' for whom, the guys or the Service, or both?

[ADUX]

Quote:
Sqn 2IC should have had a word...and told to see the OC Sqn in the morning

err... umh... err

um quite. Well the 2IC should have had a word, shouldn't he?!

[Kreuger flap]

um quite. Well the 2IC should have had a word, shouldn't he?!

So the 2 i/c is going to tell the now ex boss of 11 Sqn to stop drinking as he might get pi**ed? Maybe he should have spoken to himself whilst he was at it.

Good example set to the troops there.:ok:

[Two's in]

Some of you miss the point that it was out of control the moment the Italian MP's picked them up, then it became an international incident - regardless of what their daytime jobs were. The fact that it was a couple of FJ mates just made it certain that someone would release the details to the press, and then it became the PR nightmare it is.

As mentioned before, very basic OPSEC would have ensured that someone remained sober or adult enough to get them back from whatever drinking den they were in, the fact that they didn't apparently consider this demonstrates they probably shouldn't have been out without a grown up in the first place.

/If you don't remember 'Sharkwatch' you shouldn't be out alone.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Of course an individual entrusted to fly any of HM's aircraft needs to be able to check his (or her) own six, but we fly in formation to look out for each other...not just because its fun. Same should apply on a night out.

You watch someones six if there is a fight brewing, a car about to run them down or a change of plan. It should not require a coordinated team effort for a grown up to not put themselves in the poo and be fit to do their job. This goes for the UK so it is the same for anywhere else in the world - or is the fact they were on ops in a nice place some sort of excuse? I'm pretty sure they would have given someone a good listening to if they had done the same thing in Lincoln. There isn't an excuse.

[Red_Phos]

I doubt very much they were found in the state The Sun talks about. HOWEVER drinking heavily within 24 hrs before flying surely must be seen as wrong and inexcusable by the Fast Jet world (similar to JHC rules no?).

Yes we all love a beer or two and YES its part in parcel with our culture. But there is a level of professionalism expected of every serving soldier/sailor/airman(woman)

In my mind it must of been briefed that (for once!) Typhoon was actually being deploy therefore the crews need to be whiter than white. Poor Squadron discipline if any of their crews thought it expectable to drink before flying.What was going through their minds as they ordered their 3rd/4th/5th round??!

Personally I think drinking on ops is wrong. The lads don't do it in PBs around Helmand (well ok not officially) why should people who get the benefit of living inside the wire be allowed? The guys and girls in the PBs handle live weapons solidly for 6 months hence no booze. Similar discipline should be imposed on us REMFs.

A very embarrassing situation for the whole det.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Not much of a team player are you Mr C :=

[muttywhitedog]

the now ex boss of 11 Sqn

I bet his Dining-Out speech will be an occasion to savour.

[racedo]

Write up in the Sun:

RAF Top Guns found in gutter at 6am | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3600418/RAF-Top-Guns-found-in-gutter-at-6am.html)

Clearly they were seeking to meet politicians.

[Pontius Navigator]

Sadly years ago early resignation for the good of the Service was the done thing. An Air Cdre at Bawtry jumped and I don't think the press even got a wiff of it.

A wg cdr at Coningsby a few years ago also did a weekend departure and no coffee or dining-out.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Not much of a team player are you Mr C :=

If only he was aircrew then he could be crewed with redlineentry. They'd be very safe!:E

[ADUX]

so the 2 i/c is going to tell the now ex boss of 11 Sqn to stop drinking as he might get pi**ed? Maybe he should have spoken to himself whilst he was at it.

Good example set to the troops there.

err, i was trying to be a little more subtle and tongue in cheek. The press are still reporting '2 x Flt Lts'. no-one had yet mentioned the boss.:D

[500N]

"The press are still reporting '2 x Flt Lts'. no-one had yet mentioned the boss.:D"

That will change now that you have posted it on here :O LOL


Which aviation forum were they quoting in the article ?

[Redcarpet]

If it was the boss, why should he be protected whilst the blame is laid firmly at the feet of the junta?

[Flap62]

Whilst it was being reported as "two Flt Lts" the damage to the military as a whole was limited. If it does turn out that one or both of the miscreants was of a higher rank it becomes more juicy and the press will circle more.

It's not a case of protecting the boss, it's a case of protecting the RAF as a whole.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Not much of a team player are you Mr C

Far more team orientated than you could ever imagine. However, I don't tolerate f***wits who can't hold their ale and seem to think that others should pick up the pieces for them.

[minigundiplomat]

Mr C,

Ive sat on both sides of the fence, including yours [specifically], and Ive seen idiots on both sides. Either you have led a very sheltered life, or you have a very short memory.
PM Me if you want to talk further, but please - no more moralising.

What they did was wrong, dead wrong. They arent the first and they wont be the last. But lets not all start overpopulating the high ground.

[OORah]

I think you'll find the Boss of XI is still the Boss of XI. Nice try though.

[barnstormer1968]

After reading:

Far more team orientated than you could ever imagine. However, I don't tolerate f***wits who can't hold their ale and seem to think that others should pick up the pieces for them.

While I accept that the poster may know both individuals personally and have knowledge of their academic status, as well as the EXACT reason they behaved they way they did (including emotional or stress issues), I still find some of the comments in this thread a little odd (bearing in mind we are talking of a business where our role is to kill other folks as part of our day job for some, and to polish chairs for others).

Coming from a green background, I was used to folks looking after each other's back as a matter of course....Not just on ops', where you may well be asking your mates to do something on an hourly basis which could result in them being blown to pieces or shot!

There seems to be a growing minority of folks in light blue who make it their business to have a 'can't do attitude'. This does give the RAF a bad name to other services, which IMHO is a shame, as the RAF still has many many top individuals serving in it.

I often wonder just how many PC 'heroes' would be so critical of their fellow service men/women, if they were stationed/posted to a forward base and could be told to do the next 'nasty' job as reward for their snideness to their COMRADES.

As per above, I may be wide of the mark here, but I can vouch that for my own part the taking of someones life (and ops in general) caused me more stress (and needed to be released in many ways) than writing things sat at a desk!

Sorry if that was a rant, but why do the light blue enjoy fighting each other so much?

[phil9560]

OK I'm sure I'll get some for this but here goes !

You shouldn't really be flying a heavily armed high performance aircraft after a fu@king skinful.

Any reasonanable arguments ? :=

I'm ducking now.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

You shouldn't really be flying a heavily armed high performance aircraft after a fu@king skinful

No professional would disagree, and I would add any aircraft/car/horse or pushbike to that.
However these guys were not flying.

why do the light blue enjoy fighting each other so much?

It would appear that the RAF( or maybe just this forum) have a significant minority of people more suited for work in Health and Safety than a fighting force. It's hard to have any empathy with them.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Far more team orientated than you could ever imagine. However, I don't tolerate f***wits who can't hold their ale and seem to think that others should pick up the pieces for them.

Team players, often referred to as mates, look out for each other in every single thing that life throws at them what ever the cost, it's only lifes chisellers that don't get that :=

[hanoijane]

You have no idea what this single incident has done to the (once quite envied) image of the RAF amongst your Asian contemporaries. And you have even less idea how much your, 'we need to drink to de-stress' culture is seen as further evidence of your moral bankruptcy.

I strongly suspect that Mr C Hinecap has more idea about how to be a team player in a conflict than 99% of you posting on here. I'd have him on my team in a heartbeat. And I'd trust him 100%.

[phil9560]

Romeo how soon after the pissup were they flying ? I don't go anywhere my horse and cart until I at least stop smelling of it.

The booze-not the horse :bored:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Don't know Phil, but it's irrelevant. They may have been pissed and let themselves down and (maybe)tarnished the image of the RAF to the likes of H Jane, but they did not go flying. They were not a danger to anyone but themseves. The op programme was (probably) not affected and I'm sure they had to contend with more than sore heads in the morning. All in all a matter which should have been handled quietly in house and the press told the bare minimum, because the next day something far more important would happen ( has Ms Cole been sacked from the USA talent show because of her Geordie accent) and this incident would be forgotten. At least that's how it used to be when we had an Air Force. So on that Meldrew grump I'll retire to bed with a nice bottle of Fleurie.

[phil9560]

Why did they not go flying ?

Cheryl who ?:vbored:

[ktk]

Because they couldn't get up the ladder. I always found flying not a problem after a skinfull, but those ladders to the cockpit were damn tricky.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Wot a shambles, yet again the minority ruin it for th majority but I have to say that in the tri-service arena yet again some on the FJ force have undermined the light blue effort. Hotels, rates, pools and grogg when the 'in town' spotlight is on further cuts pan defence and now that the cost of acommodation and subsistence is now greater than the original costs of originally deploying tents and RLS we as a service look like pretentious arses.

HAving had some very meaty OOA's on the ground I know we all cope with stress in different ways, alcohol, affairs or violence so I suppose alcohol is the best of the worst, what I cant get my head around is no-one looked after them, told them to stop or got a grip till it was too late. Are the TP force such a bunch of singleminded self centered boys or is this a symptom of single seat ops.

The MAA are aready looking at bringing in random alcohol testing and this may just be meat to the grinder. I have no sympathy 1021 them and send a strong message to all.

[Whenurhappy]

SLC

I endorse what you say and I would love to see the expression on Dir MAA's face if a positive blood-alcohol test was found on ops (or anywhere else, for that matter). Darth Vader would have nothing on Timo.

Attitudes have become a lot more grown-up over the last decade. I recall p!ssed SH aircrew in Macedonia and Kosovo falling off stools in morning briefings and the rather embarrasing international incident of two F3 guys getting very p!ssed in Bahrain on a 'breather run' from PSAB. Contrast that with the behaviour of most aircrew and ground personnel in Bastion and KAF - mostly happy, getting on with the job in the near-complete absence of alcohol.

Mr Chinecap knows what he's talking about; who would tolerate a pissed squaddie on patrol or an armourer who's a bit 'tired and emotional' when uploading and fusing ordnance.

[Al R]

The response is all about the risk. But was the risk perceived or real - was the threshold for risk greater or lesser than the capacity at the time?

If a booze ban was subsequently 'slapped' on the troops, then it would suggest there wasn't a ban in place. If they got so drunk that what they did would have attracted similar wrath in the UK, then fine - they are both adults and they can have no grumbles. If they were scheduled to fly, then again - fine.. they deserve nothing else and I am sure they would be the first to appreciate that. But lets strip away the feeding frenzy from the facts. In the absence of the facts (and I do not have the facts or the truth - only what the Sun says), if the response is nothing more than an over reacting, media driven backside covering exercise, then its a sad day.

[Halton Brat]

I'm non-aircrew & therefore not terribly qualified (or seeking) to pass any kind of judgement here, but I'm a bit confused:

Were these gentlemen due to fly next day?
Were they on standby to fly next day?
Were they due to attend work at all next day?
Were they on stand-down/rest next day?

These are not facetious questions; I'm just trying to get the picture here.

HB

[sitigeltfel]

Regardless of when they were due to fly, being caught four sheets to the wind, in a public place by the local plod, is probably what sealed their fate.

[Pontius Navigator]

HB, all good valid questions and the answers to which would obviously affect how the issue was dealt with. I doubt you will get any valid answers here.

What would however be incontestable was the nature of the event and their rescue by the Italian police. Had this occured in Lincoln High Street then it would have been dealt with in exactly the same way and the answers to your questions would have had exactly the same bearing on the matter.

Drinking unwisely has occurred before and will occur again. That the media will pick up on it again is also a certainty.

[Al R]

Regardless of when they were due to fly, being caught four sheets to the wind, in a public place by the local plod, is probably what sealed their fate.


I'm sure they will reflect ruefully on that, and will learn from it. But I hope they get treated wisely and no differently than the hundreds of aircrew and groundcrew who have got hammered in similar circumstances before them. I hope that they get a measure of protection from the RAF too, and if there was no threat to ops or flight safety, then that point is hammered home.

It possibly won't reflect too well on personal judgement, but I hope their professional abilities remain appropriately intact. A said earlier, their greatest crime could possibly have been one of getting caught. I certainly am the last person to cluck at anyone getting hammered overseas when younger..

[Halton Brat]

PN, I wholeheartedly agree. Faux pas of this calibre, regardless of peripheral circumstances, should be confined to on-base limits, for the good of all.

I am as guilty as many of excesses in this regard (in my younger days...), but it is clear that such antics in public will not wash any more, particularly given the propensity of the trash press to feed upon same.

HB

[ghostnav]

If the Military are meant to reflect society, then that is what we have here. Every weekend in the UK, civilians get drunk, fall over and cause hassle for police. It amazes me that some think the Military are meant to be some group that have higher standards than anyone else. The fact is they do not, no more than MPs, Police, Judges, footballers - need I go on!

As has been said before, this is something that should have been dealt with internally unless of course they had caused damage or impacted others when the local law might be involved. I do remember a Harrier Squadron being sent home once - and for all those who think only aircrew are responsible for the misdemeanours of the RAF, have a good look around you.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Team players, often referred to as mates, look out for each other in every single thing that life throws at them what ever the cost, it's only lifes chisellers that don't get that

Team players wouldn't put their mates in that awkward position in the first place. I've covered guys for many things in many parts of the world, but I expect a grown up to know whether they are a two pint screamer or a three pint screamer.

[Pontius Navigator]

GN, I had considered posting the following before but held back:

It has been an official view that as far as some papers are concerned: MOD=bad: Troops (RAF)=good.

This can be modified to read:

Brass=bad: Troops (squadies etc)=good.

In otherwords the higher up the ladder the greater you are in the spotlight whereas the lower down you are downtrodden working classes.

As I said before, their job is to sell papers and who buys their papers? The highest 'scandal' which was either in the Mirror or the new Sun concerned Lord Louis Mountbatten.

Each year he would fly to Canada for a conference named the Eagle River Conference. It was IIRC classified and he used to fly to Goose Bay in a Vulcan. What we didn't know, before it was published in the red tops, was that this was a salmon fishing expedition with a number of US military chiefs as Mountbatten was a 5* CDS.

It all came to light when the wife of an airman (cpl IIRC), whose job was to role equip the Vulcan, blew the whistle. Mountbatten cancelled the trip and pretended it was a false story. He made his displeasure known and I think the stn cdr's career came to a sudden stop.

Of course when squaddies indulge in naked bar that sells papers too.

[Trim Stab]

I'm non-aircrew & therefore not terribly qualified (or seeking) to pass any kind of judgement here, but I'm a bit confused:

Were these gentlemen due to fly next day?
Were they on standby to fly next day?
Were they due to attend work at all next day?
Were they on stand-down/rest next day?

These are not facetious questions; I'm just trying to get the picture here.

HB


I heard that the two invoved were the Squadron CO and 2IC - if that is true then the answers to your questions are self-evident.

This incident also needs to be judged against the backdrop of the media campaign by the RAF prior to this incident. There had been a number of leaks to the press describing how due to defence cutbacks we did not have enough Typhoon pilots, that only eight were current for ground-attack operations, and that there weren't enough spares to maintain operations. It will be a lot harder now for the RAF to place stories in the media about the effect of defence cuts on Typhoon operations.

[HeliJuz]

..It amazes me that some think the Military are meant to be some group that have higher standards than anyone else. The fact is they do not..

I think the fact is people expect a higher standard from the military because they not only represent an entire country, but because they have been given the power to take/protect life. Especially considering aircrew that have such huge potential for destruction, the thought that these men dont live to higher standards is a very worrying thought...

...just imagining if the pilots that bombed Hiroshima were drunk or high on drugs.... "are we at the right spot?" "yeah i'm *hic* positive..." :ooh:

[Willard Whyte]

He made his displeasure known and I think the stn cdr's career came to a sudden stop.


Gee, stuck at Gp Capt. Bummer.

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, indeed.

I was reflecting on "conduct unbecoming . . ." and thinking back to those I knew who had done the correct thing: at least two ACM, one AVM, two Air Cdre, but sqn ldrs of whom I knew 2-3 were pushed rather than biting the bullet.

Clearly what happens next is entirely dependent on one's future pension.

PS, and two ACM that didn't (3 maybe).

[hanoijane]

Were these gentlemen due to fly next day?

If they were, I know of Air Forces where if they were on active service they'd have been shot. After due process of course.

Were they on standby to fly next day?


If they were, ditto the above.

Were they due to attend work at all next day?

As I understand it, they were on active service. That's 'work', right?

Were they on stand-down/rest next day?

Ah, the Western concept of taking a break during active service. "Sorry, all this stuff for real on my MFD's has got too much for me, it's stressing me out and I'm having trouble sleeping. I need a few days on a beach somewhere. Or maybe some counselling." How quaint.

These are not facetious questions.

No, they're not facetious questions. They're very valid.

These guys were killing people - hopefully the right people - and destroying stuff - hopefully the stuff it was intended they destroy. Which is why it's almost unbelievable they reached the positions they did in the RAF. Presumably they had 'mates' who covered for them in the past. See where that attitude got them?

[Tashengurt]

Eeh, what a fuss. Interesting to see the divide in opinion between the "they were blowing off steam and we've all done it" through to the "they are officers and gentlemen and should know better"
As with most good arguments both sides have an element of truth but I suspect that what really holds the key to their predicament is that which has taxed warriors since man first took up sticks against man. They got caught. Endex.

[jamesdevice]

If a manager in almost any major industry were found drunk in the gutter he'd be tossed out out the company as a site safety risk. By "major industry" I mean real jobs like mining / engineering / chemicals / pharmaceuticals / electronics with safety-critical requirements.

[BEagle]

There's more than a hint of schadenfreude about some of the comments in this thread.

Nevertheless, the hard word probably does need to go out about drinking to excess. Like many on here, I've seen some pretty poor examples set by senior officers when on deployed operations. Gulf War 1, in 'dry' Saudi Arabia, being a case in particular.

There was also an incident in Bahrain, when a crew was breathalysed by the military police when driving in to fly a mission during Op Southern Watch. The driver failed, so had to leave the car at the gate. Then they went flying......

Most of us like the odd sherbet, but FFS, there are times and places.

As for blanket bans being imposed on the otherwise innocent, who are capable of self-discipline, that's totally out of order.

[Avionker]

Beagle

As for blanket bans being imposed on the otherwise innocent, who are capable of self-discipline, that's totally out of order.

Unfortunately the reasoning behind it was probably along the lines of:-

"If officers cannot be trusted to act responsibly then obviously the other ranks, with their limited cognitive powers, cannot be trusted either."

After all the officers are the grown-ups and everyone else must be treated as a child right?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

After all the officers are the grown-ups and everyone else must be treated as a child right?

Can think of at least one poster who is going to choke on the inference here, personally I love the irony :ok:

[Thelma Viaduct]

I realise that the RAF hasn't got that much of a military ethos, but when I was in the Army, If 1 person screwed up, everyone else suffered as a consequence.

I believe the thinking behind it was to reduce the chances of screwing up, after all, it pays to be a winner. :ok:

[jumpseater]

If a manager in almost any major industry were found drunk in the gutter he'd be tossed out out the company as a site safety risk. By "major industry" I mean real jobs like mining / engineering / chemicals / pharmaceuticals / electronics with safety-critical requirements

Highly unlikely particularly for a first offence. The company would interview the individual to see if there was an alchohol dependancy issue or other issues. It is likely to re-assign the person to a task which can be monitored and isn't so critical or front line. It certainly wouldn't enhance the CV or career prospects though.

[A2QFI]

If one person screws up deal with them and leave the good blokes out of it! This "one person fouls up punish everbody" approach implies an unwillingness to sort a problem out and spoil everone's life to be sure of catching the culprit. Pathetic in a 21st century organisation, military or otherwise

[Truck2005]

Well, good for all you front end guys. Thread was about two crew that pushed the limit too far. I hope they get what was coming. As a past 'back end' crew, (ie cabin staff/ground crew), a lot of the previous posters have missed the point. Just about everyone has commented on the good/bad aspects of 'flight crew' getting themselves in this mess, (which, with a bit of honesty, would have ended in a bloody BIG bollocking), and no one has mentioned that there could be hundreds of passengers behind these guys depending on the usually, utmost pofessionialism of 99% of all you aircrew.

As an ex-crew chief I have been in a similar state and I even though I cannot justify it, ( I have submitted a near miss on my thoughts), I have had the benefit of going down the back and sleeping it off. I have had to rectify a kite with the mother of all hangovers and have got it sorted out but what if I had got my diagnosis wrong and what of the knock on effects?

I am not calling the kettle black but, as I have said, I had the additional benefit of sleeping it off and 99% of my crews were the perfect professionals. It is a shame that a few let the trade down.

[Wander00]

I take it no one asked their wife to take the penalty, and that she has now blipped him in a fit of pique over a supposed mistress.

[davejb]

If a manager in almost any major industry were found drunk in the gutter he'd be tossed out out the company as a site safety risk. By "major industry" I mean real jobs like mining / engineering / chemicals / pharmaceuticals / electronics with safety-critical requirements.

Errr, what jumpseater said, plus doesn't that rather depend on whether your hypothetical miscreant was on duty or on his/her own time?

Truck - not sure you meant it this way (surely not?) but you appear to be saying you serviced aircraft whilst badly incapacitated by drink, then go on to offer 'It is a shame that a few let the trade down. So, that'd be you then?

Outrage bus, all aboard, ding ding....

[Truck2005]

Dave,

I admit it, as I said, I brought it up in Air Clues 'I learnt from servicing from that'. I do not try to avoid it and there is NO justification for being in that state. I told my captain and went down the back and slept it off.

In these days of two man crews does a crewmember have that same choise?

I have been down route and seen members of other crews/aircraft types in far worst states and have asked myself the question. I let myself down that trip but learnt from it and I hope that other GEs that I have trained have also learnt from that lesson

I just hope these guys do the same!

[dagenham]

Perhaps oorah and the sky god have a connection

Semper fi verticalis

[younghearts]

Facts. They were not due to fly for over 24 hours. There was no dry or 2 can policy. There is just a lot of knee jerking. Press coverage is out of order esp as happened 6 weeks ago. Seems dodgy (?sp).

[soddim]

The worst feature of this event is that the senior officers involved acted in such a way that that the misdemeanors were eventually made public. If they had performed their duty well the miscreants would have been sorted and 'the good working order and discipline' of the service would have remained intact.

Having said that, what a pair of plonkers!

[Really annoyed]

There is just a lot of knee jerking.

Was that because they were too pissed to stand up straight?

[newt]

All real fighter pilots have been there! We know it happens!

To those that have never been fighter pilots " Up yours"

To those that treasure the memories, I salute you!

The rest can go to:mad:

[Charlie Luncher]

Sorry
But this just proves what I have known for years that knuckleheads drink like girls, they do sit down to pee you know:E:ok:
Does this affect the 51 lads warm coccoa before bed:D
Seems I have missed my high horse that the most of you have found in the blunty stables of exercises and REMFs.
Charlie sends
from the tank!

[davejb]

I'm with Newt (succinct, very well put) and Charlie on this one :)

If younghearts is correct, then the discussion centres on 'two pilots found drunk on detachment'.

Hell fire, they'll be sha**ing nurses next....

Must have been a slow news day then...

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

YouTube - ‪Bluto's Advice‬‏

[hval]

Jumpseater,

Highly unlikely particularly for a first offence. The company would interview the individual to see if there was an alchohol dependancy issue or other issues.

This might have been the case in the past, but no longer. In industry nowadays you, as an employee, will have been made aware of a drugs and alcohol policy. This policy will include instant dismissal in cases of safety critical roles (some organisations apply this to all staff). Safety critical roles include command roles and decision roles as well as those operating in hazardous environments and or machinery that is dangerous.

I have a few comments to make on this event; first, stop being defensive and think "how do others see us". Next, read the following with that thought in mind.

1/ These gentlemen get to stay in rather plush accommodation out with a combat zone yet operate (whether by decision making, or flying) in a combat zone. How does their behaviour appear in the eyes of those persons (all nationalities) that are in active combat zones?

2/ These gentlemen are leaders, decision makers, pilots. How clever is their decision making going to be, even if they were not flying in the next twenty four hours?

3/ How does the behaviour of these gentlemen make the UK military appear in the eyes of our allies, and those Arabic nations who, as part of a UN mandate, have given us permission to operate in Libya?

4/ Is the high standing that the R.A.F. had in the past continuing to be eroded by acts such as these? If these gentlemen were off duty for the next twenty four hours then perhaps they might have been better remaining in their hotel whilst getting inebriated to such an extent.

[ghostnav]

hval

and ?

[hval]

Ghostnav,

And what?

Have you answered the questions truthfully and honestly? I do not need to know your answers. They are for yourself, some healthy introspective thinking perhaps.

Hval

[Clockwork Mouse]

Hval has it right.
These were OFFICERS on an OPERATIONAL DEPLOYMENT who got picked up by the italian rozzers for being drunk and incapable on a PUBLIC street for heaven's sake. They have brought disrepute on themselves, their service and their country.
The group punishment imposed by the chain of command is pointless and infantile and just makes a highly visible bad situation worse.
Not very good publicity for the junior service.

[younghearts]

Again, enough jumping to conclusions! They did not get "picked up" by the Italian police. They were not arrested. Does no one else think that for this to be leaked 6 weeks after the event and to be spun in a way that implies there was professional misconduct is wierd? It seems like someone is trying to press the knife in a bit deeper perhaps to justify a somewhat **** decision.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Younghearts:
"They did not get picked up by the italian police". Technically correct. My apologies.

A spokesman for the Italian 'redcaps' said: "They were both the worse for wear after having been on a tour of the bars of Gioia. One was staggering around the piazza while the other was collapsed on the ground.
"They had not caused any problems in the town but had certainly had a lot to drink as the officers involved could not get any sense from them at all". They alerted an RAF liaison officer and they came to pick them up.

[P6 Driver]

I can recall talking to officers at times and also failed to get any sense out of them. And they were sober!
;)

[Avionker]

Again, enough jumping to conclusions! They did not get "picked up" by the Italian police. They were not arrested. Does no one else think that for this to be leaked 6 weeks after the event and to be spun in a way that implies there was professional misconduct is wierd? It seems like someone is trying to press the knife in a bit deeper perhaps to justify a somewhat **** decision.

It seems to me that younghearts is trying to tell us something.....

Is it possible that the person responsible for promulgating the "dry detachment" decision is receiving some criticism for it? Trying to justify it to his(or hers) Lords and Masters.....

[E L Whisty]

I am usually reluctant to contribute to threads, like this, that are so full of sanctimonious bull, ill-informed conjecture and unqualified judgement. (Not to mention the little bit of ‘If ya ain’t a fighter pilot ya ain’t s##t childishness.)

Younghearts, however, raises a view that has resonance in my experience.

Whoever these officers are, they have (if the reports are correct) already been punished. RTU is (or was in my time) a serious blemish on a career. If it is, as has been suggested, two senior officers, that blemish might well arrest their careers and waste their potential. The summary imposition of a restriction of privileges to a group of people as an expression of displeasure at the conduct of one or two is not, in my opinion, the mark of an inspiring leader. So, punishments administered – due process observed?

How important is it that the two persons involved came to the notice of the local law officers at 0600 hrs? I seem to recall on ops that my watch went to zulu and my routine was run by ops and my bod. So, it was not unusual to find a group of peeps having their ‘beer o’clock’ at oh four dubs (Zulu, Delta or downtown time).

Who reported that one was sprawling and another staggering? Please define sprawling. Laid in a storm drain wailing for Huey or sitting on a kerbstone waiting for a cab? I seem to recall climbing out of a Phantom after circa 7 hours chasing Red Stars around the oggin and having a very unsteady gait. It is staggering what cramp and knackerdness can do to a man.

One thing I do know is that I advised some youngsters, 30 odd years ago, to be very careful with the Italian police, especially the chaps with the auto carbines that they seemed so keen to show to foreigners. I also remember advising against being rude or inconsiderate to ladies, children or little old fellows who appeared to be destitute peasants but might just be pretending.

Government is done rather differently in different places in the world so it is best not to offend anybody and do your unwinding behind closed doors where only your trusted buddies will see your foolishness.

Yet again, we find so many people keen to assert their omniscient judgement on people based on meagre reports from ‘the press’. Like red light tarts, their aim is to get us over excited so that we will part with money for something not quite so fulfilling as we might first think.

I don’t know what features are prominent in the curriculum of Air Marshal school nowadays but maybe they need to beef up the bits about looking after your dudes and dudettes. The familial happiness of the service has, from time to time, been marred by career anxious commanders who are keen to demonstrate their robust approach to discipline. On occasion, that is taken to gob smackingly daft extremes, but that is covered at the top of the Military Aircrew forum.

Sometimes, being a boss is like being a parent. A quiet word – usually a few questions - explores the issues and a little kind advice can be given. Afterwards, the kids toddle off a little wiser but still thinking Mum / Dad are hopeless out of touch old farts, even if their intentions are good. 30 odd years later, the kids have entirely forgotten the details but, uncannily, find themselves curiously wise when dealing with their own kids’ cock ups.

Other times, and if handled poorly by Mum or Dad, the kids get a strop on and rebel. It would be most unfortunate if summary punishments were contested and commanders were called to account in law. Especially if such commanders found that an auxiliary one-way valve in the loyalty conduit had been installed just above their heads.

[ghostnav]

hval

It is a story in a so called newspaper. I read stories everyday in my own line of work which are totally inaccurate and I take much of the so called detail with a pinch of salt.

Whatever they did, it is the RAF to sort out. The press like to make much of these sorts of stories to sell newspapers. The more I read in the UK press, the more I despair. The worrying thing is the public believe it!

[Lightning Mate]

I can recall talking to officers at times and also failed to get any sense out of them. And they were sober!

That's probably because you are incapable of speaking the Queens' English!

Innit...

[forget]

That's probably because you are incapable of speaking the Queens' English!

And you of writing it. ;)

[betty swallox]

I've only heard the story 3rd-hand, but if it is in any way true, it's fairly shabby given that we have just closed 3 fine Flying Squadrons at Kinloss...

[Capt W E Johns]

Lightning Mate
That's probably because you are incapable of speaking the Queens' English!

And you're incapable of writing it. Apostrophe buffoonery.

[jumpseater]

hval
In industry nowadays you, etc etc

Yup I'm a civvy and always have been, and work/worked in safety critical positions and areas within the aviation industry from aircraft manufacturing airfield/airline operations and ATC. As I said for a first offence, being drunk in such a position is not an automatic sacking offence be it someone 'on the line' or a senior manager. The same substance misuse policies also have a duty of care element to them to help a person who has a 'problem'. I also know of rare cases, (two spring to mind), of individuals who have been dismissed, but not without a great deal of care from the companies to make sure the I's are crossed and the T's dotted, and never summarily.

I know of that from first hand experience as a union rep in a previous occupation, and having dealt with the whole cross section of 'issues' from mental health, substance misuse, and racism to name a few of the more 'entertaining' events.

[Arty Fufkin]

There really is a lot of sanctimonious drivel being spouted on this subject. A couple of mates had a gap in their flying programme and took the opportunity to hang one on. So what?
They sound like more fun to be on a squadron with than a lot of the NATO Potatoes on this forum who see fit to criticise them.
Drinking and flying don't mix, but the happiest squadrons I've flown on have been the ones with plenty of opportunities for both. Is anyone on a fun squadron any more?

[airpolice]

Lightning Mate,

the Queens' English!



She may well be, but her Man's a Greek.

[muttywhitedog]

Is anyone on a fun squadron any more?

.........No.

[hval]

Ghostnav,

You have two problems that I perceive; there is the issue that the press have become aware of what occurred. If the gentlemen had carried out their exercise in non sobriety in the hotel they stayed in then no problem. Remember public perception is important. As is the perception of governments who are monitoring the current military activity. Muslim nations really do not like alcohol, nor the visible effects. The perception of those who work in the military elsewhere is also important. I could write much about what those in FB's might feel, but I am sure you understand what they might feel.

The next problem is responsibility, command & leadership.

My apologies for being so brief and not fully responding to your posting.

Hval

[hval]

@ Jumpseat,

I am aware of a number of organisations of where drinking leads to instant dismissal for those in safety critical roles - as stated previously. The only exception is if you declare your problem with alcohol. Then the organisations shall assist you.

Hval

[Pontius Navigator]

I seem to recall on ops that my watch went to zulu and my routine was run by ops and my bod. So, it was not unusual to find a group of peeps having their ‘beer o’clock’ at oh four dubs (Zulu, Delta or downtown time).

Aye, you remind me of one glorious exercise in Gibraltar. Are schedule had us taking off 24 hours after the previous landing. It didn't take long to get out of synch with the real world. I recall the unreality of a post-flight nosh - bacon and eggs - followed by a sortie downtown at about 10. We got to bed around teatime and up at O'dark hundred for the next brief and launch.

No way we could have gone to sleep post-flight and again later in the day pre-flight.

[glad rag]

Oh dear someone else sent home......................

Senior Navy officer fighting piracy sent home after extra-marital affair with female sailor | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391811/Senior-Navy-officer-fighting-piracy-sent-home-extra-marital-affair-female-sailor.html)

diligaf? :E

[minigundiplomat]

At least she's female, and not a Stoker in a little black number I suppose.

[newt]

Got to be expected when you put women on ships!! :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Got to be expected when you put women on ships!! :ok:

Very true, women, being an alternative to normal sex on a Grey Funnel boat makes it inevitable that the Navy chaps will want to experiment :ok:

[lj101]

HVAL

Lets have a look at public/foreign opinion shall we

British pilots sent home from Libya mission in disgrace - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110526/wl_uk_afp/britainmilitarylibyaconflictpersonnel_20110526070801)

or a quick snapshot of the arab reaction as below - mmmmm read by 444 and commented on by, er, none.

British pilots sent home in disgrace (http://www.arabtimesonline.com/NewsDetails/tabid/96/smid/414/ArticleID/169565/reftab/73/t/British-pilots-sent-home-in-disgrace/Default.aspx)


Actually me old, its kind of difficult to find any outrage whatsoever. Nice of you to take time out to speak on behalf of the world, but it seems, the world really isn't that interested.

[Cows getting bigger]

When I were a lad at Sleaford Tech we were taught that commissioned officers didn't get pi$$ed in public; it wasn't good for the troops.:sad:

[Willard Whyte]

I can recall talking to officers at times and also failed to get any sense out of them. And they were sober!

I find that with northerners, can't understand a word.

[Skeleton]

I take it then, when british industry leaders travel abroad, they don't partake, don't stay in plush hotels and when they get a day off, stay in said hotel.....

FFS:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

oh here comes the enemy, a conference table!

[Politely_amused]

Actually me old, its kind of difficult to find any outrage whatsoever. Nice of you to take time out to speak on behalf of the world, but it seems, the world really isn't that interested.

Well that’s alright then. After all, as commissioned officers it’s not how you act, it’s what people find out about how you’ve acted.

[Pontius Navigator]

I see from the Storygraph that an Army officer, clothing stained, was accompanied from a nightclub in the early hours by a number of policemen. The club may lose its licence because of rowdy behaviour by the guests.

So there we are, hat trick.

[SRENNAPS]

I would rather be on a Sqn serving with these two chaps than with some of the whiter than white, holier than thou, politically correct, sniffling, back stabbing, gutless, hypocritical, arm chair morons that have posted some quite incredible posts here.:mad:

They got drunk! So what, it’s hardly the end of the world or a crime against humanity. They should have been able to play their Joker, got a slapped wrist and allowed to continue with their job. And I don’t care if they were two Flt Lts, or the Boss and his 2ic.

They probably had a reason for doing what they did and it is probably a reason that 99.9 percent of the population could never understand or experience. And of all people, we, who have served in dodgy situations, should cut them some slack. The rest of you will never understand.

It’s because of the ability of the internet, fast communication to the ordinary public and the callous reporting by certain newspapers, alongside a weak, politically correct and gutless leadership that has led to a complete over reaction to this incident. It will be the downfall of us all.:ugh::ugh:

[green granite]

It will be the downfall of us all.

It already is I'm afraid. :(

[Exascot]

So there we are, hat trick


OK, so it our turn again. Sorry can't help, a retired senior officer being chucked out of a taverna on a small Greek island is hardly going to make headline news.

SRENNAPS very well said sir :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Exascot, you been a nawty buoy then?

[Exascot]

Exascot, you been a nawty buoy then?


Old habits never change. However when you have got the island policeman dancing at a beach BBQ in full uniform firing his revolver into the air in time with the music I doubt I am going to be arrested :cool:

Must go and get another Raki :)

[Two's in]

Obviously some don't realise you have to counter the media story, not the actual events. Once it's published, it becomes fact in the minds of the great unwashed, and that is what the MoD are trying to react to. It's also amusing/sad that the dipsomaniacs here are convinced these two have done no wrong other being "one of the lads" and having a great night out.

Historically, it is unlikely that the structure and fabric of HM Forces have ever faced a greater threat from major cuts in personnel and equipment. The very same government that sings HM Forces' praises in public on one hand, is on the other hand conducting a ruthless campaign by stealth and deception to emasculate and remove funding from the UK's military capability. With that background, does it take a genius to figure out what the impact of a story such as this has? Not everyone in the MoD wants, or even needs, the "truth" to come out, they are quite happy with the Press implication that some over-paid, elitist, bad-boys with an inflated sense of entitlement are running amok with millions of pounds worth of taxpayer funded equipment.

You can be confident that dark blue and green will be taking preventative measures to keep the pressure on light blue with this story, and why wouldn't they? This was never about "bottle to throttle" or the social conduct of known stable extroverts, it was a shining example of how the Press and Government are waiting like hungry dogs to use any and all negative publicity to make their case for why the military can't be trusted, so why not cut some more money from them? Now those revered and respected social organs such as the Sun and Daily Mail have smelled blood in the water, you should pity the next poor sap who gets the MoD into the news for "conduct unbecoming".

[Pontius Navigator]

Historically, it is unlikely that the structure and fabric of HM Forces have ever faced a greater threat from major cuts in personnel and equipment. The very same government that sings HM Forces' praises in public on one hand, is on the other hand conducting a ruthless campaign by stealth and deception to emasculate and remove funding from the UK's military capability.

Actually this 'greater threat' is really no more than all the other cuts in the past. Really it is just one great continium and the Torys are doing what they have done historically. Both partys cut and Torys, IMHO, cut deeper.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

2's in....utter tosh.
Srennaps....spot on.

[Clockwork Mouse]

2's in.
What complete tripe.
And the dark blue and green don't need to rubbish the light blue. You are doing an outstanding job, especially on Prune, without any outside help.

[Fox Four]

I’m afraid I don’t understand how this matter needs to be reported to the general public? Regardless of any kind of behaviour, this is a service matter, and should be dealt with by the service.

[davejb]

2's in is not necessarily talking tripe, look around you - the government is pulling cash from anything it can, pay freezes and reductions in allowances throughout the public sector are commonplace, and it makes it all a great deal easier to push through if a few folk can be demonised along the way. Whether it's 'policy' or just somebody's idea of a brilliant stroke is another matter, but it's naive to assume that the story amounts to all that has been published.

As far as the dipso comment goes, THAT makes you look stupid - defending 2 blokes against what looks like a trial for witchcraft is my take on it, the guys were pissed. They weren't bothering anyone, they weren't going flying anytime soon.

Once over we had sqn barrels, we had a bloody good laugh, what happens these days - 15 mins at the local Costa Coffee and Almond slices all round?

As I'm in a jovial frame - now I'm no longer in the RAF, let alone on a sqn, I find myself in what I see as a potential Sqn Ldr's (equivalent) rank, which I have sewn onto a spare pair of pyjamas along with miniatures of my array of medals (only some of which are chocolate) and cannot help but observe that when I cut my steak up I am performing much the same motions as an SAS trooper might carry out on an inconvenient guard whilst on an op. Should I be receiving some sort of allowance for this, or simply objecting to the SAS getting it?

I mean to say, one does like to keep one ends up on the outrage, doncher know?

Dave

[caiman27]

Why does the public need to know?
I’m afraid I don’t understand how this matter needs to be reported to the general public? Regardless of any kind of behaviour, this is a service matter, and should be dealt with by the service.

Umm, just maybe, because we public pay for it?

And also, because it happened in public where public people saw it.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

because we public pay for it?

And you think we don't ? In more ways than just tax!

[Pontius Navigator]

And you think we don't ? In more ways than just tax!

And in how many occupations do you know that over half the people you started work with never drew their pension?

And pensions were available from the age of 38.

[TheWizard]

Making a tit of yourself in public is not just the preserve of the UK military!!
This one from one of the German Navy's finest!!

Hendrick Huelsman audition - Britain's Got Talent 2011 - ITV.com - Video Player (http://talent.itv.com/2011/videos/video/watch_hendrick-huelsman-audition_item_201498.htm)

[SRENNAPS]

Caiman27,

Umm, just maybe, because we public pay for it?

I am sorry but your comment has really annoyed me.

Do you feel ripped off or short changed because two men had a few more beers than they should have. Do you feel that you are not getting value for money for “your” Armed Forces because two individuals let their hair down for reasons that we don’t know about. Do you lie in your bed at night worrying about just how many other Servicemen are committing heinous crimes, obviously not doing their jobs properly and therefore wasting tax payers’ money?

Are you suggesting that because the public pay for the Armed Forces then any misdemeanour, error of judgment or even some form of behaviour that does not meet with your obviously high standards should be dealt with harshly, swiftly, without trial and reported out of all proportion in the gutter press.

Or do you just enjoy reading about a good old scandal where you can pass judgment and feel superior.

[Fox Four]

caiman 27, why are you posting on a military forum? And whatever makes you think your tax revenue pays for the Royal Air Force? It might keep David Cameron in socks.

[oldgrubber]

A lot of the comments on this subject appear to miss the point (deliberately or not?), that is that irrespective of whether you "support" or "condemn" these guys, they are in the military.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/editor/separator.gif
I have (as a divisional officer) been involved in defending young (and not so young) guys who have drunk too much. It doesn't matter whether you like them or not, or if you sympathise with their reasons for hanging one on, the simple fact is that they (allegedly) broke the rules in the Naval (RAF Army) discipline act and they will be dealt with iaw that book, you have to try and minimise the damage to them and their career.

The fact also is that it happens all the time, all over the world and will go unnoticed by the general public most of the time mostly because it's not "newsworthy". Able Seaman scroggins getting p%$ssed ashore in some bar will usually result in 10 days punishment and a stoppage of leave or some other "usual" penitence.
The higher you go up the tree, the more that punishment reflects, not only your position on the tree, but also, how that behaviour is perceived by those lower than you. If you add into the mix a very high profile operation that gives access to the worlds press, you have the makings of a very embaressing situation for the command. Even forgetting that a hungover man is a danger to himself and those around him (always a concern at sea when dishing out the bad news), it shows lack of judgment not expected from a leader of men in the military.
Was the decision to stop the troops drinking a bad one? Of course it was. In the context of a man getting drunk in his own mess or bar, you can punish him and his peers because it says, "you all share the responsibility for what has happened", and actually, you do. The feeling of resentment and injustice that the troops feel when being punished for an officer's bad judgement is palpable and completely divisive (been there), so all in all well done whoever sanctioned that one!
Have I ever hung one on? Yes. Does that make my opinion less valid? I don't care, it's my opinion.

Cheers all

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Well said SRENNAPS !!

[jamesdevice]

well said?
What total garbage. These two broke the rules, got drunk in public, attracted ridicule to themselves, country and armed forces, and rendered themselves incapable of work for at least two days (so making themselves unavailable if plans had to be changed). These two were supposed to be in a management position where they led others. Some leadership. Sooner they are kicked out the better. There are plenty of others who want to fly without breaking the rules.
And what do you find in this forum? A bunch of old fools patting them on the back for getting drunk and enjoying themselves! And in the same thread I see comments about the mortality rate, suggesting that this gives an "entitlement" to get pissed up. Well just maybe if there wasn't such a drinking culture the mortality might be just a bit lower. Ever thought of that?

[Bill4a]

Exascot
Thank you for brightening what was starting to become a dull old day!
Cretan Red is quite good too! :\

[lj101]

Oh come on Jamesdevice - calm down.

People make mistakes. Don’t read too much into it when people do foolish or inconsiderate things, it's easy to judge others when you don't walk in their shoes.

No one died, no missions were cancelled, no poor decisions made (er, apart from making the the op dry imho) and they were sent home for it - i would suggest punishment enough.

If we threw everyone out of the military who have ever been drunk in public, i think that would sort out the defence cuts quite quickly. :ok:

[ghostnav]

jamesdevice

What rules did they actually break? I doubt if they broke any - the context of the story is factually unknown in this forum!

[Lockstock]

Well said SRENNAPS, and ghostnav :ok:

[anotherthing]

I am sorry but your comment has really annoyed me.

Do you feel ripped off or short changed because two men had a few more beers than they should have. Do you feel that you are not getting value for money for “your” Armed Forces because two individuals let their hair down for reasons that we don’t know about. Do you lie in your bed at night worrying about just how many other Servicemen are committing heinous crimes, obviously not doing their jobs properly and therefore wasting tax payers’ money?

Are you suggesting that because the public pay for the Armed Forces then any misdemeanour, error of judgment or even some form of behaviour that does not meet with your obviously high standards should be dealt with harshly, swiftly, without trial and reported out of all proportion in the gutter press.

Or do you just enjoy reading about a good old scandal where you can pass judgment and feel superior.
I'm ex-mil and can hang one one with the best of them. Don't know enough facts to comment on the particular incident however the comment above makes me laugh.

There are plenty of threads in the Mil forum where people talk about respect. The respect they think they deserve from the public because they volunteer to join a fighting force (and do a bloody good job). The fact they think they deserve to be treated differently from Joe Public when it comes to healthcare etc, because they 'deserve' it.

It makes statements above slightly ironic... If you want respect, you earn it. Maybe, just maybe, the public who proportionally are facing bigger hardships than the military find it difficult to give that respect when ambassadors for the country, which is what these 2 pilots were, screw up.

Whether it should be in the paper or not is a different argument. If you think you should know about Ryan Giggs screwing some bint other than his wife (personally I think it is none of our business), then it's a fair argument that we have a right to know about incidents such as above.

As stated by another poster in JetBlast aobut something different "What interests the Public is not always in the Public's interest"

[tradewind]

Jamesdevice wrote:

These two broke the rules, got drunk in public, attracted ridicule to themselves, country and armed forces, and rendered themselves incapable of work for at least two days (so making themselves unavailable if plans had to be changed).

Take out the 'and armed forces' bit and you now have an accurate description of a large percentage of the UK taxpayers exploits on any Friday or Saturday night. :ugh:

[Fortissimo]

As ever, this seems to have degenerated into mutual mud-slinging. I think you need to look at this without plastering it with emotion or righteous indignation. The simple fact is that it is about perceptions. There is no doubt that the social mores prevailing during the 70s and 80s have changed: what may have been acceptable then is no longer seen the same way. This is not restricted to the military - just imagine the fuss if these two had been professional sportsmen who got lagered up prior to a big match. Remember Freddie Flintoff losing the England vice-captaincy and being banned (= fined) for the pedalo incident? And before anyone raises the 'ops are much more important than sport' issue, I agree, they are! Which makes the perception worse...

A govt employing military force in the full glare of international scrutiny has a right to assume that all measures are being taken to avoid mistakes - it actually has a duty to ensure that LOAC is followed, and it has a duty to protect others involved in the operation regardless of which side of the border one sits. Hence there is regulation handed down usually in the form of orders. The civil sector is regulated and policed, and there is not much sympathy there for those who stray, just a P45 or equivalent. Whether the GDC 2 would have 'failed' a comparable test when they turned up for duty is open to question - none of us have the facts. However, the perception of Joe Public (or the Govt) is that they would have been unfit, and that is the part - exacerbated by the involvement of the locals - that causes the reputational damage and invites the questions about whether ops are being conducted professionally.

As for the subsequent order sending the JOA dry, I don't see that as weak leadership. The easy option would have been the 'do nothing'. Ask yourself how you would respond to the question from SofS' office asking what you had done to prevent a recurrence. If your answer is 'Er, not a lot...', it is your leadership that is weak, not those further up the chain. I do have sympathy for the GDC 2, as there is every possibility that the consequences of their actions will be more severe because the 'offence' has been made so public. There is at least one career in ruins. And, yes, there but for the grace of God... etc.

However, what I find most distasteful is the knowledge that one of our own chose to contact the media and feed them the story. Why? Or did it come to light via PPrune and Training Risky's helpful rush to post event and names on another thread? Who knows. I accept this is a rumour forum, but it is always worth remembering (pace Orwell) that some rumours are more damaging than others.

[Clearedtoroll]

Fort, I agree with most of what you say, but got to challenge the bit about weak leadership. It may or may not have been the right decision to make the theatre dry (after an MPA tour I see both sides), but I am surprised you think doing something just so you can tell the SoS you have done something is strong leadership? I hope and assume that the officer responsible made the decision because he/she? felt it was the right thing to do as a commander, not because they just wanted to be seen to do something. A lot of the **** most of us have to deal with is surely the consequences of people doing things to be seen to be doing things?

[Avionker]

However, what I find most distasteful is the knowledge that one of our own chose to contact the media and feed them the story. Why?

Because of the knee jerk reaction to make the JOA dry, thus punishing hundreds of innocent parties?

[The Old Fat One]

Apologies for being late on parade...just back from the sunshine.

Re the thread...I know nowt about it (no longer partake news comics) but if a couple of aircrew types were following play hard work hard rules, tick VG, now trousers down and take it like a man.

Now for a spot of thread drift...


A bunch of old fools patting them on the back for getting drunk and enjoying themselves!


Getting old is a pretty miserable experience, but I confess the pill is sweetened by winding up the today's youth...which ain't hard.

Well this old fool was smart enough to get selected as RAF aircrew and enjoy himself drinking and shagging round the world for ten years (unfortunately, thanks to the Mayfair Bar, at least on one occasion both in public at the same time)

Smart enough to get the job done whilst doing it and get promoted six times.

Smart enough to know that he had had the best of it (evidently!) and to pull the handle early.

And smart enough to know that british military are the best in world (and give the tax payer incredible value for money) precisely because of the ethos and traditions founded over hundreds of years and many wars. Which is exactly why the earlier comment about the Battle of Britain is spot on.

[Tourist]

I think it is a point worth making that the good reputation of the British armed forces, including the RAF was formed during all the wars we fought and won whilst drinking heavily at every chance we got, not during the recent dry wars.
If anything, the dry Iraq and Afghan wars have tarnished the image of our forces, since we have demonstrably not won.

We are the armed forces.

We are not here to set an example to the public.

We are here to kill and threaten to kill people as required by polititians

Pandering to public opinion is a slippery road, we should just focus on our job.
We will get all the respect we need from winning, not trying to win in a certain PC way.

[A2QFI]

"As for the subsequent order sending the JOA dry, I don't see that as weak leadership." No, it is hasty badly thought-through leadership. In what way are the troops in Cyprus going to be motivated to go the "Extra Mile" by having the sins of people 1000 miles away visited on their recreational drinking?

[Mr C Hinecap]

I think it is a point worth making that the good reputation of the British armed forces, including the RAF was formed during all the wars we fought and won whilst drinking heavily at every chance we got, not during the recent dry wars.

Yes - and beating the wife, especially before she had the vote, was good for morale as well? Hurrah for the good old days!

:rolleyes:

[Halton Brat]

Cleared to Roll: I'm afraid weak leadership is not a new phenomenon; the knee-jerk reflex has always been around. I recall Stn Cdr Gutersloh (& this was not his fault) in '89 having to go around the Unit & surrounding countryside one Saturday evening, terminating Xmas social functions due to the crash of a USAF A-10 on an apartment block in the Clutch, with regrettable loss of life.

This Biblical over-reaction was due to a directive from the Foreign Office, generated by their equivalent of the Orderly Corporal, in response to an out-of-hours request from his opposite number at the German FO. Herr Flick sent out a demand to all NATO forces Germany that a period of sombre reflection be observed by same. Quentin Fawcett-Home at HM FO leapt upon this with zeal & gusto, certain that this would propel him to become HM Ambassador to Washington DC before you could say "where's my Pimms?", and instigated this Draconian reaction. The other Nato (G) forces, when confronted with the same request, quietly ignored this tosh. It was interesting to note that the Bars/Clubs/Whorehouses of Germany continued to party as normal. 'Twas ever thus.................

HB

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

We are the armed forces.

We are not here to set an example to the public.

We are here to kill and threaten to kill people as required by polititians

Pandering to public opinion is a slippery road, we should just focus on our job.
We will get all the respect we need from winning, not trying to win in a certain PC way.

I have seldom been more in agreement with a post on Prune :D

Mr C the attitude you endorse is exactly why today's military is what is today and IMHO you Sir are an arse :=

[jayteeto]

Beating the wife????? What are you on about? That wasn't acceptable in those days either and by the way, it is not a thing of the past. It still happens now (a lot) so you can't use that as an example. Didn't women have the vote then as well?
I know what he is trying to say and so does everyone else, don't twist his words. Of course booze and flying does not mix, but he is right in parts, the armed forces should not be PC like the NHS.

[Tourist]

Hinecap

Just because some things were bad in the old days does not mean everything was.

For example, in the old days nobody would have considered for a moment the truly excerable disloyalty and cowardice displayed by some on here who slag off brothers in arms on a public forum from behind the shield of annonymity, but time change, eh Hinecap.
Previously you would have been horswhipped and never allowed in an Officers mess again.

I miss the old days.....sigh......

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

In the good old days he and his like would never have made it into the mess in the first place, sycophantic yes men are part of the new breed that are slowly but surely wrecking the military and all it once stood for :(

[hanoijane]

I think it is a point worth making that the good reputation of the British armed forces, including the RAF was formed during all the wars we fought and won whilst drinking heavily at every chance we got, not during the recent dry wars.
If anything, the dry Iraq and Afghan wars have tarnished the image of our forces, since we have demonstrably not won.


Congratulations. Quite the silliest piece of reasoning on this whole thread. And that's saying something.

[Tourist]

hanoi

No, because whilst it does not prove that drinking is good for reputation, it does prove that it does not destroy a reputation.

Incidentally, in response to your earlier comment about "moral bancrupty", whilst I dearly love your part of the world, at least in the west nobody has ever tried to sell me their 10yr old daughter for sex.

[Pontius Navigator]

As an aside, and so she STFU, I see that police in Vietname have been banned from answering non-work related telephone calls or drinking alcohol..

So clearly it is not just the west that has an alcohol problem.

[hanoijane]

whilst I dearly love your part of the world

And we dearly love you, which is why we...

tried to sell me their 10yr old daughter for sex.

[Tourist]

erm.....ok?

[hanoijane]

I see that police in Vietname

You were trying to spell 'Viet Nam'? Oooops!

So clearly it is not just the west that has an alcohol problem

Remarkably astute of you. But I fail to see how this stunning observation impacts upon the subject under discussion. Perhaps you could drag me up to your level of enlightenment?

[Whenurhappy]

Whether people on this forum like it or not, the Forces are expected to set high standards of behaviour. Inter alia, our troops are under the media - and social media - spotlight 24/7. And dose being PC mean that our persoNnel strive hard not to be racist, sexist, homophobic etc? Does it also mean that the 'leadership' should not discourage inappropriate behaviour at work - including alcohol excesses?

I agree with Chinecap - the good ol' day should be left where they belong. Oh, and Tourist, I think that success in Afghanistan being linked to alcohol consumption is a non sequiteur ie it doesn't follow.

The RAF has changed immeasurably in my 25 years service and having done several tours in the Balkans (2), Middle East (2) and the 'Stan (2) I also support the no alcohol ban (and enforced in the early days of Kosovo when several aircrew became v ill on the local brew (and against FP advice)

[Really annoyed]

Are you losers still discussing this?

Oh sorry I forgot, this is the pprune ex military forum where you all discuss how wonderful things were when you were in and how naughty everybody is today compared to what you were like.


http://www.madamandeve.co.za/vd/high-ground.jpg


Can I lend any body a quarter?


http://www.thejokester.net/Cartoons/Toons1/images/Get%20a%20Life_gif.jpg

[hanoijane]

Fraud. You seem to be only 'Mildly Annoyed' not 'Really Annoyed'.

I demand my money back.

[A2QFI]

Yes but there is a difference between a detachment declared dry at the outset and a group of serving personnel in Cyprus being deprived of recreational drinks by the foolish actions of 2 people in Italy, and the poorly thought out reaction of a detachment commander.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jane, it was you that drew attention to alcohol being a western problem when as you must admit it is more universal.

[glad rag]

Remarkably astute of you. But I fail to see how this stunning observation impacts upon the subject under discussion. Perhaps you could drag me up to your level of enlightenment?

Irony fail.:ugh:

[Mr C Hinecap]

I do like to see the Cold War Warriors getting all flustered beneath their tartan rugs and hear the irate rustling of their copies of the Daily Mail. Given that most of you spent most of your time serving between conflicts, your views of current operational practices are welcome. Historical, but welcome.

I maintain that alcohol and being (in command whilst) on operations must be balanced very carefully. If you can't balance them, you should concentrate on the task in hand and have a shandy when you get back. Given we're all anon here, I don't see what your point is on that front.

[Really annoyed]

Good point there mr dutch cap. If you are struggling with your balance whilst drinking that could a sign that you have drunk too much. As for drinking shandy what are you? You're a big girls blouse that's what you are. Only girls and logistics officers drink shandy, unless you are thinking of having a different type of shandy when you get home.

[The Old Fat One]

@ Really Annoyed

Don't think we claim to be naughtier...drinking and shagging being grown up pastimes and basically legal (provided nobodies 10 year old daughter is involved). Perhaps it is just human nature for old timers to see their service through rose tinted glasses. That said it was the increasing prevalence and self importance of the fun police that provided a great deal of the "push" factor when I legged it.

One other thing...what's with jumping on here, complaining about the content and context of every thread. Little bit weird don't you think?

I am addicted to Pprune because I am a sad old loser with nothing to do but count my huge pension every day...what's your excuse?

[jamesdevice]

after reading so much guff in this thread and so much mutual self-justification of the unacceptable, I now begin to understand why Duncan Sandys was so keen on missiles.

Its also interesting that all the "support" of these two seems to come from RAF (or ex-RAF) members. I see (apparently) nowt from naval crews or overseas commentators.

[Tourist]

Jamesdevice

Erm, no

I find myself in the unfamiliar position of defending crabs.

The RN generally doesn't beat itself up about alcohol. We quite enjoy it! Having spent some time on a US dry carrier, I know just how bad they are.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Its also interesting that all the "support" of these two seems to come from RAF (or ex-RAF) members. I see (apparently) nowt from naval crews or overseas commentators.


Don't be so naive JD, they do not want to raise their heads above the parapets and draw attention to themselves by commenting on daft drinking in the wrong place at the wrong time. The spotlight might just fall on them.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6483357)

[TurbineTooHot]

JamesDevice,

Are you a military aviator? Genuine question as I'm interested in your mindset.

Cannot defend these chaps too hard, but I'm disappointed that there are some around here that are opposed to the idea of "looking after your own."

From what I've heard, the Gioia police and locals were not upset with the chaps in anyway, just wanted to make sure they were home safe. The incident was blown up by the RAFP whose number was the only the local feds had.

It seems this particular Flt Lt PC Plod's mission is to punish and clamp rather than protect and support.

My guess is that it was someone in his department that leaked the story.....

[Clockwork Mouse]

Well guys, if Tourist is defending you, YOU'RE DOOMED!

[jindabyne]

As I mentioned on another thread:

I have the utmost admiration for those of any generation who are or have been on active service, and continue to show my respect in a variety of ways. I have less time for those few who choose to denigrate the many who have had little or no 'operational' experience. Following WW2, they all wore their uniforms voluntarily, and that most were never exposed to enemy action does not detract from their readiness to do so in the professional manner of their day, often in difficult circumstances. Their relative lack of medals is thankfully a sign of a slightly more peaceful yesteryear, which can be regarded as partly due to their contribution.

To repeat myself, I have the utmost respect for those on operations, and those who have been. But for those here who use their experiences in a high moralistic and willy-waving manner, do please f**k off chaps.

[Whenurhappy]

Jindy, if I recall that comment might have been directed at me, but as I am sure you can appreciate there has been a huge culture change over the last 10-15 years across the Services in general and the RAF in particular. Getting rat-arsed in the Mally, Schnelly or the Mess on a Clutch airfield in a predominantly 8-5 air force - frequent Tacevals notwithstanding - is a world away from ops over Libya or, in particular Afghanistan. I find that I have little time for the 'desert dodgers' (qv) and they will get their professional comeuppance.

As acting Det Cdr I sent 2 guys home from a ME location just after 9/11 because of alcohol issues - the locals would have been rather less accommodating than either the Polizia or the Caribineiri.
The matter was dealt Sqn Ldr to Sqn Ldr and nothing was written up. I wish I had, in retrospect, because this was part of a pattern of behaviour of one of the guys and the matter ended up in Court. Earlier professional intervention may have avoided this from getting far, far worse.

Don't take those un supporting of these guys as prudes. I like to drink and it is a key feature of my hosting duties in my current and sadly final appointment as SRAFO. But these guys knew the rules and are grown up enough to know what was expected of them. I agree that its a pity that the story got into the public domain - but as I mentioned before, our people are under 24/7 scrutiny.

[jindabyne]

If the cap fits -------

[Norfolk Inchance]

I am curious as to why the 700 or so military personnel are staying in hotels(apparently 4* ones at that). Does this not pose a major security risk, or do these hotels have armed guards, 24 hours per day. Is there no service accommodation available nearby; if not rooms in the mess then somewhere to pitch a few 12x12 tents?

[anotherthing]

No, because whilst it does not prove that drinking is good for reputation, it does prove that it does not destroy a reputation.

The second part of that statement is utter rubbish, it proves nothing of the sort. We are in an age where the media reports on anything to sell garbage it has the gall to call a newspaper.

Unfortunately these types of event do, in some peoples eyes, tarnish a reputation. Like it or not, you are in the public eye...

Things that you used to be able to get away with, you no longer can. It's not always right, but its a fact of modern life.

[OORah]

Damn, Mess accommodation - why didn't they think of that?

As for pitching tents on the airfield: genius. Right next to the long, wide road involved in nice and quiet 24 hour ops. Just the ticket for ensuring a jet's planted somewhere.

Wake up mate.

[The Old Fat One]

It may surprise some of you but there are plenty of people (from all walks of life) that don't give a flying **** about the public eye...especially when the public eye is a euphemism for what some dritzekt journo or his editor has decided is morally right for the next ten minutes.

Some of us have decided to live by the law, to do right by one another, and to get on with our jobs as we think best. Not to spend our life sucking up to the mob rule.

I took an oath of allegiance to the Monarch and to my country. Not to some ars*wipe rag like the Daily Mail.

The guff on here is coming from the morally outraged. Tourist posts rule all.

[jamesdevice]

"and to get on with our jobs as we think best."

Therein lies the crux of the problem
You're supposed to do your job as you're expected and ordered to do.
Not as you "think best"

[Norfolk Inchance]

Damn, Mess accommodation - why didn't they think of that?

As for pitching tents on the airfield: genius. Right next to the long, wide road involved in nice and quiet 24 hour ops. Just the ticket for ensuring a jet's planted somewhere.

Wake up mate.

Yeah of course, how stupid of me. Just like the tonka guys during Desert Storm- unlike the rest of the aviation community who put up with tent city, they had to book themselves into the bloody Sheraton!! Nice way to go to war. Lets hope some irate Libyan, who doesn't like to have his country bombed by the west in the name of oil, doesn't do anything silly.

[charliegolf]

Don't really want to trawl the 200+ posts, but remind me- was anyone killed? Hurt? Offended, leading to a complaint? Equipment broken?

They got a judgement wrong, ironically, probably because they had one too many, leading to bad judgement over the next few. They'll pay.

Pity the presumably sober NATO troop(s) who killed a bunch of Afghans, including kids. They probably won't pay in the same way, but they'll pay too.

No thread about it on Pprune as far as i can see either. Perspective is funny innit?

CG

[MG]

'Just like the tonka guys during Desert Storm- unlike the rest of the aviation community who put up with tent city, they had to book themselves into the bloody Sheraton!!'. Not me mate, I spent the war in a BAe compound which was comfortable and that was it. No hostesses, no booze and was true for two out of three GR1 dets.

[Whenurhappy]

Jindy,

If directed at me, the cap doesn't fit! The RAF that you allude to was a completely different one from the 1940s, as today's Air Force is different from one of 2 decades ago. The brutal truth is that the level of operational experience across the RAF exceeds anything that has occured over the last 50-odd years, and this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). This is why I - and I suspect many of my serving colleagues - have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere. If they were on operations, fine, otherwise they should count themselves lucky for not being away for extended periods of time from friends and family, amongst communities that would cheerfully kill them!

OF1

If you think that appearance of the Services and their behaviour as reported by the medja doesn't matter, you are living in an extremely naiive world. Of growing importance is the role of social media - blogs, facebook, twitter, ad nauseum - after all, these new media brought down the Governments of Egypt and Tunisia; having a direct bearing on events in Libya and Syria, and caused a proto-revolution in Iran in 2009. Users of T W I T T E R have usurped the authority of the High Court, indeed been in contempt of it. Social Media could also be the undoing of HM Forces. Soooo.....when a story about the behaviour of British troops is released into the cybersphere it takes a life of its own and can be extremely damaging - irrespective of its veracity.

To illustrate this 18 months ago I was involved in an incident which rapidly made it into the media and onto various blogs (this site included). Threatening messages - calling for my imprisonment or worse - were published on a number of websites (Telegraph Comment, and PPrune, to name 2) and I was to be 'door-stepped' at my (very) private home address by one of the red-tops, who 'received the story' (probably by way of payment) from a 'Top Brass in MOD'. Luckily DMC in MB intervened and lessened the media outrage, yet it continued, self-fuelling - on the internet for several weeks. These viral stories bore no resemblence to the events as they happened but at one stage UK participation in several Joint UK/US programmes was jeopordised because of unsubstaitated comment on the web - programmes, I regret, that I had nothing to do with!

So in sum,

British Fores operate under a level of media scrutiny that exceeds anything ever experienced before. Additionally, social media can be used to pass messages and 'stories' without editorial control; indeed the lads using social media in theatre can, unwittingly, be a major threat to OPSEC and PERSEC. Societal norms have changed, reflecting our changing society. It is no more acceptable to refer to South asians as, say 'Pakis' as it to be drunk at work - in any job, let alone whilst on operations. Imagine, if you will, stories that are probably circulating about 'drunk, pork eating kuffirs killing innocent Muslims from Libya/Afghanistan/Pakistan/ (insert Arc of Crises country of your choice)'. I bet my bottom dollar that these stories are circulating and gaining credence. Let's not give the Queen's enemies any UXOs that could be used against us.

(for some reason FAceBook comes up at PPrune in this post....see what I mean?)

[hanoijane]

'..was anyone killed? Hurt? Offended, leading to a complaint? Equipment broken?

No, you're correct. All that happened was that two officers in the RAF on active service were found drunk in a public street some (as-yet-to-be-admitted) time before they were due to fly again operationally. If we're to believe the elderly warriors on here, such behaviour is not just traditional, it's almost mandatory.

So that's fine then.

They probably won't pay in the same way, but they'll pay too.

I'm sure they will. And I'm sure they'll be comforted somewhat by the knowledge that it was a genuine mistake, not (I hope) a mistake caused in part by the after-effects of alcohol on the cognitive functions of the brain.

[TurbineTooHot]

Seriously, f:mad:ing seriously actual aviators believe these two were about to go flying and decided to tie one on. Are you sh:mad:ting me.

They were several DAYS from getting in the cockpit. FFS.

You lot get very easily convinced by poor journalism. Very weak minded.

[Whenurhappy]

TTGH

This illustrates my point. Irrespective of any 'facts' surrounding this event, the received wisdom is that 2 pilots were drunk and about to fly. This is the story that is on the web and again, illustrates why our behaviour in Theatre (in particular) has to be exemplary, whether we like it or not.

[hanoijane]

Seriously, fhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifing seriously actual aviators with access to aviation medicine specialists believe these two were about to go flying unaffected by their alcohol consumption, even 48 hours afterwards? Are you shhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifting me?

You lot get very easily misled by your lack of understanding of the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function.

[Pontius Navigator]

Damn, Mess accommodation - why didn't they think of that?

As for pitching tents on the airfield: genius. Right next to the long, wide road involved in nice and quiet 24 hour ops.

This also assumes that GDC has room and infrastructure for a tent city. Tent cities don't just spring up overnight (well they do but they need a considerable amount of work to so do) and the host nation may be unwilling to have its airfield turned in to an encampment. Hotac will have a far lower impact on the 'economy'.

[Avionker]

Makes me wonder if people in a position of authority have any time to worry about the task in hand, or the welfare of those under their command, these days.

They are obviously too busy fretting about what the media think, or whether vital international projects might get cancelled because of something they didn't do. It could be awfully bad for ones career after all.

Personally I would have thought that someone who has been the victim of inaccurate media reports would have more sympathy and understanding of the position that these 2 gentlemen found themselves in.

Then again anyone who thinks, and I quote:

The brutal truth is that the level of operational experience across the RAF exceeds anything that has occured over the last 50-odd years, and this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). This is why I - and I suspect many of my serving colleagues - have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere. If they were on operations, fine, otherwise they should count themselves lucky for not being away for extended periods of time from friends and family, amongst communities that would cheerfully kill them!

Appears to be so full of themselves that they probably have little time for others. Unless of course that other person can in anyway help them progress up the promotion ladder.

[minigundiplomat]

If directed at me, the cap doesn't fit! The RAF that you allude to was a completely different one from the 1940s, as today's Air Force is different from one of 2 decades ago. The brutal truth is that the level of operational experience across the RAF exceeds anything that has occured over the last 50-odd years, and this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). This is why I - and I suspect many of my serving colleagues - have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere. If they were on operations, fine, otherwise they should count themselves lucky for not being away for extended periods of time from friends and family, amongst communities that would cheerfully kill them!


Whenurhappy,

Having read the above, from someone who's posts are generally amicable and loaded with common sense, I can't help feeling a little disappointed.
At what point does an exchange of views get so virulent, that denigrating those who have gone before us becomes acceptable?
There are massive differences between the generations [my service spanning both the cold war and recent ops - I am all too aware]. That does not nullify their contribution, or negate any opinions they may have on this thread.

I leave it to your conscience, but personally, I would like to see the post deleted. I'm sure it looked fine in the heat of the moment, but I would urge you to reconsider your line of advance.

[forget]

..... have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere.

Phew! Not me then - never in Germany. :p

[jindabyne]

Whenurhappy,

Please see your PM's.

[teeteringhead]

They are obviously too busy fretting about what the media think, or whether vital international projects might get cancelled because of something they didn't do. It could be awfully bad for ones career after all.
... but that's probably why lawyers and meeja officers are among the first to deploy....

this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). ... well bully for you! But as I have often heard said: round ones don't count!

[Whenurhappy]

MGD,

I'm sorry that you took umbridge at my post - I was recovering from an Imperial sized headache....probably too much Limoncello!


With a double dose of irony....I was sober!

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

He's not the only one When. Thanks for the near apology but what you said is downright offensive,inaccurate and deserves more. Would you like me to PM you as well (and all the other "coldwar" has beens) to really tell you why you are wrong?
Thankfully, PPrune does not reflect the view of all serving personnel, because if it did the RAF is doomed.:*

[rarelyathome]

TTH,

the GM and MM certainly count in my book!!

[hanoijane]

I'm sorry that you took umbridge (sic) at my post - I was recovering from an Imperial sized headache....probably too much Limoncello!

And thus you provide us with a masterclass on the wisdom of combining drink with anything requiring a modicum of logical thought...

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Hanoi J

You lot get very easily misled by your lack of understanding of the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function.

Please tell us more Jane.
How many times must it be said that the guys were not going flying, and if when they they were due to go flying they were still unfit due to the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function (sic), then they would not have flown (probably deeper in the sh*t however).

[Grumpy106]

Seems to me that if these were 2 'senior' officers then they should know better and should be setting an example to those under their command. No-one was hurt but leadership starts at the top. I'm also surprised no-one has asked why they got so pi$$ed - was it a reaction to what they had just done on Ops or to what they may soon be expected to do? People react to the stress of Ops in different ways. Personally I think they overstepped the mark and made fools of themselves. If it affects their careers then they get what they deserve, as would a JO in a similar situation.

[hanoijane]

Please tell us more Jane.

Why is the phrase 'cognitive function' troubling you? Would you like me to spell it some other way?

If you're having trouble with that, there's little point in me referring you to the research papers on PubMed on this subject. I suggest if you'd like to know more, have a word with your local specialist in aviation medicine. They're paid to educate you. I'm not.

I'm simply here to tell you that active pilots shouldn't drink alcohol. It's not big and it's not clever. End of.

[Willard Whyte]

And thus you provide us with a masterclass on the wisdom of combining drink with anything requiring a modicum of logical thought...

Oh come now, posting on t'internet is no fun at all when sober.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I'm simply here to tell you that active pilots shouldn't drink alcohol. It's not big and it's not clever

What about inactive ones? Is your Av Med specialist bigger than mine? If the Research Papers on PubMed state that active pilots should not drink and is accepted by all authorities then drinking would (or should) be prohibited to everyone.
Why is the phrase 'cognitive function' troubling you?
Grow up Jane and try not to be childishly rude
Please don't bother to answer, we'll agree to differ.

[hanoijane]

Oh come now, posting on t'internet is no fun at all when sober.

You'd noticed that too?

[Halton Brat]

My Top 3 Guys to be stuck in an elevator with:

Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
Hanoi Jane

Should I start a new thread on this topic?

HB

[jindabyne]

My PM was sent to Wurhappy whilst without drink. I'm now off to correct that, so he'd best watch out in a few hours or so ----

[hanoijane]

s your Av Med specialist bigger than mine?

I certainly hope so.

If the Research Papers on PubMed state that active pilots should not drink and is accepted by all authorities then drinking would (or should) be prohibited to everyone.

It's a institutional-military-cultural thing. I think this thread proves that, yes? Westerners cope with stress by getting drunk. If that troubles you, change your cultural values.

[hanoijane]

My Top 3 Guys to be stuck in an elevator with:...

Even allowing for your irony content, why would you want to be stuck in an elevator with guys? Have you been drinking?

[teeteringhead]

TTH,

the GM and MM certainly count in my book!! ... well I'll concede GM, but I think MM (like AFM and DFM) is no longer issued, since blighters/erks/ratings can get the MC (AFC and DFC) now.... so that's one all ;)

.... and no disrespect implied or intended to holders of those "round ones" or similar. As an aside, a full cousin of Milady Teeters got the DCM (senior to MM) in the Western desert.......:D

[Halton Brat]

I'd have to have a few beers to want to spend time with you, pal......

[Pontius Navigator]

Accepting that Jane is right about cognitive function, he makes the point that active pilots should not drink but I think we are working on the hypothesis that these were not active pilots in the sense that they were on the flypro in the near term.

There is the other possibility that they were also flying supervisors and in that capacity may not have been the sharpest tools in the box the next day.

That, I submit, is the greater worry.