Typhoon Pilots 'unfit for flying' Sent Home

[younghearts]

The gossiping on here is horrible. I get it, this is a rumour forum but can the smug, self-righteous "i only drink at Christmas" lot please back off and appreciate that an excellent pilot has had his career ruined because of this incident. They had the day off, not due to fly for another 2 days, no one was harmed. The incident has snowballed out of control and the RAF has lost one of their best. More fool them. Now can this thread be pulled please?

[jindabyne]

Hear, hear !!

[BEagle]

Hear, hear !!

I'll drink to that! 'tis nearly G&T time, after all.

And would PPRuNe's sanctimonious Zulu Hotel please poke off and find something else to play with!

[The Old Fat One]

whenurhappy,

Many things I am, naive is not one of them.

Actually I don't disagree with the thrust of your post...but you've missed my point.

I don't say that public image is not important to organisations...clearly it is.

I point out that in a democracy, it is up to the individual how much they allow the opinions of others to dictate how they behave.

I try to act on my principles; not on other peoples. Many on here feel the same. The vast majority of military people I worked with were men and women of character, not of straw. It is also a pre requisite of leadership (IMHO) that anybody in charge of people needs to be able to stand up and be counted when right needs to be done...irrespective of personal cost and irrespective of "public" opinion.

If these guys have broken any regulations they will be dealth with by the chain of command. If they have not broken any regulations, I would expect (demand) the chain of command to stick up for them. Public opinion can go **** itself.

[newt]

What a state the RAF must be in these days! I never thought I would see the day when youngsters in the Service would have such low regard for ALL those who served before!

I'm almost speechless!

Best go to the pub. And before anyone starts on me..........I am not flying in the morning!!:ugh:

[jumpseater]

Hval
I am aware of a number of organisations of where drinking leads to instant dismissal for those in safety critical roles - as stated previously

So you agree then, not all substance abuse in safety critical roles leads to instant dismissal in every civil organisation. Sort of what I said then :rolleyes:

[davejb]

have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere.

...I'm supposed to be wearing a blazer? Why did nobody tell me? No wonder I'm getting it so wrong...

Well said TOFO, right and wrong aren't determined by the papers. My votes with Younghearts though, all this outrage when nobody knows a ******* thing is pathetic.

Dave

[jindabyne]

Really time to knock this on the head Roj?

[Tashengurt]

Really time to knock this on the head Roj?


Hear hear! It's wandering about like a P*ssed jockey! (and about as interesting :E)

[Really annoyed]

EVERYBODY PLEASE........................

https://funzro.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/you-need-to-get-a-life2.jpg

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I love it...

Really annoyed has not made any friends yet

When that pillock "contributes" I agree it is time to move on.

[airpolice]

I've had an Epiphany, and three tins of Strongbow, so here we go:

Let's make up some **** about some boys or girls, or boys and girls, in the RAF out there in Sandyland.

We can invent some supposed offence and colour in some circumstances, anything will do, no need for facts.


Then sit back and watch the "Holier than Thou brigade" fight those of the "There but for the grace of God" tribe and we can all chip in with nuggets of encouragement.

That will give the Typhoon drivers a break and allow loads of spleen venting without any real victims.

The absence of facts in my scenario is no different to the preceeding thirteen pages. If, and that's a big if, we accept the official line, the only "reliable" witnesses are the two cops who picked them up. There's more chance of finding all three tramps from the grassy knoll than getting to bottom of this.


I've been taken home, and other places, in a Police car after a night of drinking. Never been arrested for it, just conveyed home because the cops thought that was best. I am in a fortunate position of being able to get a Blue Light Taxi home from Police social functions where pubic transport is not a good idea, particularly for the wasted. If it was known by the great unwashed how much of that happens it would make news for a day or so, but who really cares?

Perhaps this story would not have been so "newsworthy" if it had centered around "blatant misuse of Italian Police resources" for Typhoon stars rather than the "Jet Jockey too pissed to stand up" kind of headline.

Maybe they were as pissed as rats, or maybe just cheery and they got a lift home and were done in by the Snowdrops. Either way, assuming they had infact had a few drinks, their own recollection of events will be suspect.

What I do know for sure, is that I wasn't there so I don't ****en know how drunk they were, or were not. Loads of room in here for people with the same amount of knowledge of the situation. I've not heard from a mate who was told by a bloke who bought a beer for a girl who knows a guy who said he saw them.

We should lock this thread and start a new one for those who need to discuss drinking (or not) on ops, so that we can leave the Typhoon guys alone.

[taxydual]

Agreed. Time to call Endex on this thread.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Stupid thread about a couple of silly boys who got caught doing something that a bunch of old grannies don't approve of when they hear the whispered gossip of those with no clue of what the actual situation really was.

Bugger me... I must be on the Internet... :}

[hanoijane]

I'll disengage if you will, just as long as the final post on this thread reads:

So we're agreed. Pilots who are on operations and who are discovered drunk in a public place for whatever reason - be it stress related, cultural indoctrination, institutionalised stupidity or simply an inability to control themselves - are not to be lauded as 'professional' or 'excellent' pilots, or even tolerated as 'unlucky' pilots. They are poor pilots, and we shouldn't have to share the skies with them.

[Herc-u-lease]

Sorry, couldn't let that be the last post.

Poor pilots - No! how does some circumstantial, tabloid generated rumour mill, about a non-flying incident question a pilot's technical ability?

Poor personal judgment - Absolutely!

But the truth is none of us on this forum were there, we'll never know what really happened, never understand the full chain of events and yet some on this kangaroo court are more than happy to pass judgment from sanctimonious armchair positions.

Mods FFS please close this!

H-u-L

[FlightPathOBN]

well...I suppose this wasnt real then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJaREhzcO48

poor judgment ..yes
bad pilots..no

[hanoijane]

Sorry, couldn't let that be the last post.

That's ok. It's an Internet forum. You're free to disagree.

Poor pilots - No! how does some circumstantial, tabloid generated rumour mill, about a non-flying incident question a pilot's technical ability?

I apologise. Of course you're correct. They could be outstanding pilots. And I'll happily concede that at their very worst - even intoxicated - they'll likely be better pilots than I.

But as so many have pointed out, being outstanding behind the stick is not the complete job. Being able to lead by example is important too. As is exemplary judgement in difficult situations. And for me, it's the latter that is unforgivable.

Poor personal judgment - Absolutely!

So where do we start to suspect that poor personal judgement in one area of an individuals life may be indicative of poor professional judgement in other areas? Can a man be an amazingly competent strike leader and a lush? I dunno, but I suspect not. And I certainly wouldn't care to be on his wing to discover whether or not I'm correct.

Mods FFS please close this!

Threads die naturally where there's nothing left to say or no-one interested enough to say it. No need to force the issue. Besides, this thread is p*****g Really Annoyed off mightily, which may be the sole reason for letting it run and run...

[diginagain]

Bugger me...

He's picking on the Jaguar pilots now............Oh I'm so glad they're getting something, they have a hell of a time.

[BEagle]

And I certainly wouldn't care to be on his wing..

No problems. You'd be firmly under his pipper.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Priceless, we effectively have it from the horses mouth that these guys were not scheduled to fly for the next 2 days yet we still have the same old sanctimonious horse sh1t still being posted :=

[Pressonitis]

Having skipped through the 200+ posts it appears that the string of comments/views on this incident has missed one salient point ....

Symptoms .....


drowsiness or light headedness
difficulty concentrating
feeling confused or disorientated
difficulty speaking, or slurring your words
loss of balance and finding it hard to move
lowered inhibitions
paranoia (a feeling of fear or distrust of others)
amnesia (memory loss) or a ‘black-out’ of events (when you cannot remember large sections of your evening)
temporary loss of body sensation (feeling like you are floating above your body, or having an ‘out of body’ experience)
visual problems, particularly blurred vision
hallucinations (seeing, hearing or touching things that are not really there)
nausea and vomiting
unconsciousness
Cause (among other things!!!!) ...., spiked drink. Consider:
Gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) and gamma-butyrolactone (GBL),
Tranquilizers, most often benzodiazepines, including valium and rohypnol, and
Ketamine

No-one appears to have considered Gaddafi's 5th columnists...., frequenting bars and restaurants in and around the off-duty areas with attempts to disrupt operations against their country. Are there any safeguards in place locally? Both accused should have had blood tests before departing for UK.
Press' says...., light blue touch paper and retire immediately.....,

:E

[Avionker]

I still maintain that this situation came to light because of the erroneous order banning alcohol.

Hammer to crack a walnut it appears, and it led to exactly the kind of PR disaster that the "New Age" armed forces were trying to avoid.

Maybe the old method of dealing with it, quietly and in house, has been the preferred option in the past for a reason?

[forget]

Pressonitis. See post 45.

There's something not quite kosher about this whole thing. Too late now I suppose to test their blood for anything additional to alcohol?

[FODPlod]

Priceless, we effectively have it from the horses mouth that these guys were not scheduled to fly for the next 2 days yet we still have the same old sanctimonious horse sh1t still being posted :=

Concur. Some people need to lighten up. It's not as though these 'leaders of men' were engaged in anything like the World Cup finals or a dry six-month deployment in Afghanistan. It's obviously more like Club Med on steroids. :)

Love the user name by the way.

[MrPVRd]

I heard before this event (in early April), that there was a 24/7 2-can rule in force at Stn or Gp level, for all off-duty personnel in support of ops in Libya (deployed or not). I suspect this would be an unpopular order.

Putting 2 and 2 and 2 together, it seems as if this order was breached (as is inevitable) and that two officers were caught (unlucky for them, but they must face and accept the consequences) and that the subsequent 'dry' order (which smacks of collective punishment) has prompted the leaking of this dog-bites-man story.

Most of us who have served have drunk enthusiastically to excess, usually knowing when to rein it in, occasionally failing in this regard, but always accepting the consequences for our social actions. Very unlikely that this alleged incident would have any implications for flight safety or operational effectiveness, other than flouting a 2-can rule or risking being caught out if the sh!t really hit the fan in some unlikely way, but orders are orders and all that.

[younghearts]

It wasn't a 2 can rule, it was the same "moderate drinking" rule that applies at home. Hence the fact that about 20 of them were out on a bender that night.

[Whenurhappy]

Jindy

Check your PMs

NZWP.

[cazatou]

younghearts

"Bender" - defined in my dictionary as "a drunken spree."

[hanoijane]

No problems. You'd be firmly under his pipper.

I doubt it. Whilst rarely being able to claim a simulated gun kill myself, I spent my entire flying career without anyone being able to claim a simulated gun kill on me.

Some of us are naturally good at running away.

[jamesdevice]

"Hence the fact that about 20 of them were out on a bender that night. "

hey this gets better and better. Are we to assume that all 20 were pilots / aircrew? Were they ALL off-duty for the next few days?
And fine leadership skills by the two who got caught.

And just imagine the headlines in the Gaddafi Times if one of these participants had screwed up on a mission:
"Pissed pork-eating pilots paveway'd primary school playground" or similar

[The Old Fat One]

So we're agreed. Pilots who are on operations and who are discovered drunk in a public place for whatever reason - be it stress related, cultural indoctrination, institutionalised stupidity or simply an inability to control themselves - are not to be lauded as 'professional' or 'excellent' pilots, or even tolerated as 'unlucky' pilots. They are poor pilots, and we shouldn't have to share the skies with them.


And there you have it.

Replace the word "operations" with the word "duty" and you would have the agreement of every true aviator on the planet.

But either because many of you on here do not know/understand the rules and regs of being on duty in the military, or because some have their own, somewhat sanctimonious, interpretation of when it is OK to drink, we get this endless entirely subjective debate about an event most of us don't have a scoobies about.

Just change that little word HJ and we can all agree and then foxtrot oscar to the scruffs for a couple of large ones.