Jerry cans in aircraft

[Katamarino]

Imagine that I wanted to carry, say, 60L of AVGAS in the back of an aircraft in jerry cans. What cans would one choose to use, and what precautions would one take in filling, flying, and refueling from them?

[FleetFlyer]

Sorry to wee on your potential bonfire(couldn't resist that one) but I think you'll find that carrying fuel in any part of an aircraft not designed to do so is illegal.

Having said that, you can get temporary ferry tanks fitted to some aircraft for temporary use.
As regards jerry cans, I think some people in the microlight/permit aircraft world do sometimes do this (still illegally) and get away with it, generally by strapping a jerry can into the passenger seat.

As regards the dangers, I would guess its as dangerous as you make it. I wouldn't do it but I wouldn't necessarily condemn someone who did. How well will it be secured? Does the can have a secondary locking pin for the lid? Are you in an open cockpit so fumes aren't an issue?

Edit: Apologies, I've just noted what country you're posting from and I'm not sure on the regulations governing this issue there.

As regards practicalities, could you let us know what the purpose is and what the aircraft type is and then perhaps we could be of more help?

[jxc]

Would it be advisable to have them earthed to the frame ?

[Pilot DAR]

have them earthed

and airborne at the same time?

Sorry, I could not resist. Other parts of the world would refer to this as "bonding" but no disrespect intended.

The carrying of "jerry cans" is done in Canada, but it's not talked about too much! All of the safety concerns and risks are are self evident. I can't speak to local legality, but sometimes you gotta do what you've gotta do!

Tie them down well, and in contact electically (bonded) to the primary structure. There is Canadian guidance material on cabin tanks, I can dig it up for you if it would help...

[subsonicsubic]

Operating in the Philippines, we often carry fuel in plastic containers in the cargo bay of our Cessnas. The legality of doing so is questionable, however operationally it is a neccessity.

The company I sometimes rent from, strictly prohibits this. I'm unsure if this is in accordance to CAAP guidelines or company policy.

To be frank, if I was renting aircraft, I'd be unhappy if my clients flew with fuel in the cabin.

Best,

SSS

[Rod1]

Many on the BMAA site say it is legal provided the fuel is for use in the aircraft. I think there has even been official approval given on this basis for additional modifications to hold the cans.

Rod1

[jxc]

Sorry pilot Dar I forgot to mention there is a very thin wire fixed to the ground so keeping perment contact with plane as it flies around ! :E

No disrespect taken

[Jan Olieslagers]

"grounded" would do too. As long as it is not "anchored" one can get away with it.

[patowalker]

AFAIK, the only BMAA approved mod is for a removable, but plumbed-in (out-board engine) tank, secured on the back seat of a Quik flexwing.

I have seen flexwings at Blois with jerrycans strapped into their back seats, but I think they were French. Yes, they must have been, ...

[JW411]

At the risk of thread drift, let me tell you that the most dangerous cargo that I ever carried was a load of empty jerrycans.

The Army had been exercising in the Oman bundu and someone decided that the best way of getting the jerrycans back to Sharjah was to put six pallets of them in my Argosy.

The caps started blowing open not long after take-off from Ibri and I was very happy to throw the old girl on the ground at Sharjah. I kept thinking of the five inverters underneath the freight bay floor.

Jerrycans are generally fine as long as they are full but they are bloody dangerous when they are empty or nearly empty.

[ShyTorque]

Fuel is classified as "Dangerous Goods". In general, it cannot legally be carried in (i.e. inside) a passenger aircraft.

CAP668 gives relevant info and can be downloaded as a .PDF file.

[BackPacker]

Can't help you with the legalities or practicalities of carrying fuel in cans in the cockpit, but I can point you to something else.

Eventually you'll want to get the fuel in the tanks. Usually this means messing about with a funnel and sloshing fuel into it. Which may cause spillige and is also pretty dangerous since a static charge may build up.

A few years ago I was at the HISWA (boat show) and somebody had a real neat solution for this. It was essentially a 1/2" hose with a very crude one-way valve on one end, arranged so that the fuel could enter the hose from that side, but not exit.

You simply place the fuel container at a point which is higher than the fuel tank (in an aircraft that would be on the wing), dip the one-way valve end into the container, and put the other end in the aircrafts tank. Shake the one-way-valve up and down a few times so that the fuel is lifted up into the hose, and hey presto, instant syphon. His demo 5 liter container drained in 10 seconds or so.

No spilled fuel, no need to suck on a hose, no sloshing and the container is actually in contact with the fuselage, so not a lot of chance for a static buildup.

I still wish I had bought one of those hoses right there and then.

[AfricanEagle]

Refrain from smoking during the flight and while refuelling :cool:

[Katamarino]

Thanks AE, I will bear that in mind ;) Are we seeing you on the 3rd? :cool:

[AfricanEagle]

Are we seeing you on the 3rd?

Confirmed. Arrive for lunch.

[Katamarino]

I'll let you know our ETA :) Is AVGAS or Mogas available?

[Jan Olieslagers]

By the jerrycan, only.

[Maoraigh1]

Be sure that turbulence will not loosen the tie downs. Once there is some movement, jerking will stretch it more. No way will I carry a full jerrycan. I have carried an empty can, well secured, at low level. A full can will exert far more newtons in turbulence. In rough water, I've watched things loosen tie downs on a boat, where I could tighten them. A loose full jerrycan could wreck a light aircraft.

[AfricanEagle]

Avgas, mogas, Jet A1.

[onetrack]

JW411 has nailed the danger. Avgas in liquid form is not such a problem... it's the gaseous form (read fumes) that is the real danger. Ensure there is not the slightest possibility of leakage via puncturing, or leakage from the cap.
A cabin full of Avgas fumes is a bomb ready to go off at any incidence of a spark... let alone the extreme danger of breathing in the fumes.
Remember that volatile petroleum fuels also have a very high expansion and contraction rate with severe temperature fluctuations, which can create a danger of the container bursting, if no allowance for expansion is made.
Even steel jerrycans aren't immune to splitting and leaking under pressure. Keeping the containers upright is a good move, it helps keep pressure off the cap seal, and will help reduce spillage in the case of leakage from the cap.

[VOD80]

If the cap is going to leak, it'll leak no matter what the can's orientation. The weight of the fuel sloshing around will see to that. Replacement seals are cheap and easy to find.

I've never heard of a Jerry can bursting either.

[VOD80]

If you're feeling wealthy (probably before!), these guys do all sorts of tanks for aircraft, including some that are jerry can sized.

Bush Plane Long Range Fuel Bladder - Turtlepac (http://www.turtlepac.com/products/collapsible-jerry-can-fuel-tanks.html)

[John Eacott]

We carried fuel in 'jerry cans' often, and quite legally, here in Australia. There seems a belief that all jerrycans are metal, our approved ones are a plastic material with the correct International Approval moulded into the unit. UN1863 for JetA1 and UN1203 for Avgas, IIRC.

There was another thread Is it legal to carry extra avgas in a jerrycan (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/349006-legal-carry-extra-avgas-jerry-can.html) which answered many of the questions here :ok:

[Crash one]

Imagine that I wanted to carry, say, 60L of AVGAS in the back of an aircraft in jerry cans. What cans would one choose to use, and what precautions would one take in filling, flying, and refueling from them?


Disregarding all "authority, permissions, legalities etc.
To answer the questions:
1/ Use standard steel jerry cans with good seals & no sign of rust.
2/ Place them on the ground when filling (not in the back of a pickup truck)
3/ Place them on the ground for 30 mins or so before loading to allow any static to discharge.
4/ Lash them securely in the a/c, preferably upright cos it looks better, the seals should hold even when they are inverted.
5/ Place them on the ground for a while to discharge any static picked up whilst airborne before earthing them to the frame & to the funnel & to ground before refueling from them.
6/ Preferably fill them with water rather than carry them empty.

[John Eacott]

Disregarding all "authority, permissions, legalities etc.
To answer the questions:
1/ Use standard steel jerry cans with good seals & no sign of rust.

On the basis that most steel jerrycans these days are shoddy bits of tin made in China, I would hesitate to endorse that sentiment. Our plastic jerrycans are not only far superior overall construction, they have the international approval stamp as mentioned before. I have yet to find an approved steel jerrycan.

[VOD80]

You can still get good ones in Europe. The latest one I bought is a little 10 litre version that came from a supermarket but is made in Germany and carries the (I think!) EN number as well as a date code.

[onetrack]

I've never heard of a Jerry can bursting either.
Metal jerry cans don't actually burst, they split along the welded seams. Even more likely when they've been dragged around a bit, and had extensive use.
Fill a 20L jerrycan with Avgas and leave it in the hot sun (38-40°C) for 2-3 hrs, and you'll see the sides bulging seriously with the pressure.
The approved plastic jerrycans are a little safer, in that they don't have welded seams. However, they also swell alarmingly in the hot sun. Never had one burst or split, yet, though... but they can look pretty frightening on a hot day.

[mikehallam]

And my 1943 genuine Wehrmacht 'Gerry Can' is stamped 'wasser' (water !).

Still used for ferrying Mogas from petrol station to airstrip.

mikehallam.

[patowalker]

I also have a 1943 one marked Kraftstoff, Feuergefahrlich, which I use regularly to take mogas to the airfield. The seal is better than on a my 3 year old jerrycan.

[Miskin]

Some years ago I ferried some Bulldogs from Scotland to Nigeria for the Nigerian Air Force. We used to lob into a dirt strip to top up with fuel between airports. We carried the fuel in jerry cans strapped into the passenger seats. Avoid aerobatics and open the canopy when you wanted a cigarette worked for us. Seemed to remember making a profit on the jerry cans when we got to Nigeria.

[Crash one]

Metal jerry cans don't actually burst, they split along the welded seams. Even more likely when they've been dragged around a bit, and had extensive use.


I have 3 that I've used for years for grass cutting stuff & never seen any sign of leaks or splits, just dents. I have 4 new ones used for mogas, one of which I tried out a pressure pumping system on & accidentally put 15 PSI in it!! It went "ding" & is now 1/2" wider but no leaks.

[VOD80]

The same comment goes for all the jerry cans on roofracks trundling around north Africa. I've never heard of any splits or leaks other than the seals for the cap.

I'd love to find one of those 1943 "originals" as well :)

[patowalker]

I'd love to find one of those 1943 "originals" as well http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Well, you're in the right country. The Germans left a lot behind when they had to leave in a hurry. Got mine at an antique fair in Chartres, many years ago.

[RatherBeFlying]

I did a bunch of vacation travel with camping equipment including stoves and fuel bottles.

The stoves and tanks were left out in the sun the day before and I could safely hold a flame to the openings with nothing happening.

That was before bin Liner. The regs now refuse carriage of any stove or container that has ever been used:mad:

[Dawdler]

There are very strict requirements for the carrying of anything by air classed as dangerous goods. Some years ago I was involved in the design and construction of some passive fire protection equipment for an oil rig situated off the coast Newfoundland. The lack of this equipment was costing $30k/day in lack of production. Naturally enough the owners were very keen to get the parts over to the rig. In the event they sent over the CEO's private jet to pick the stuff up, (involving the removal of seats etc.). Nonetheless, we could not just pile the parts into the aircraft as a very small portion was an industrial adhesive (very similar to Araldite). The hardener as a petroleum product was classed as hazardous and as such, the tubes had to be packed in inert fire retardent material. Despite the fact that the pilot was happy to take our assurances that the stuff would not instantanously combust, the airport authorities would not allow our parts to be loaded until safely packed.

Having observed this, how anyone can consider carrying jerrycans containing fuel inside the aircraft as being safe? On another thread on PPRune there has been talk of Atlantic crossings being carried out with the aid of ferry tanks which appear to be fitted in the cabin of the aircraft. To the untrained eye this looks extremely dodgy and I note with some horror the comparison with my own experience noted above.

[Humaround]

I'm now very worried about the fuel in my Jodel front tank, which is in a metal container just above my knees and two foot in front of my face... with all that electricity at the back of the panel, right next to it


:eek:

[Crash one]

Avoid aerobatics and open the canopy when you wanted a cigarette worked for us.

Brilliant!!:D

Having observed this, how anyone can consider carrying jerrycans containing fuel inside the aircraft as being safe?

Who said it was, or had to be, safe?

My Emeraude also has 80 litres over my knees & 40litres behind my back. Scary stuff.:ugh:

[VOD80]

Got mine at an antique fair in Chartres, many years ago.

Thanks for that pointer. I'll look more closely in the future!

[Sir George Cayley]

What if you crash?

SGC

[Crash one]

What if you crash?

You burn screaming in agony:ugh::ugh:

[osmosis]

Agree or disagree with the practice, avgas & etc has frequently been transported in aircraft because of necessity; leglislation has nothing to do with practical needs except get in the way. We used to always carry jerry cans of petrol for our waterpumps and avgas for the a/c in the hoppers of C188s, they use to sit right on top of the waterpumps themselves, also full of petrol.

Those offering advice on ferry tanks, get real. If our opening poster is hiring an aircraft, ferry tanks are not an option to him; back to flightsim kiddies.

[sherburn2LA]

What is the legal position on weight and balance when you are out on the wing filling the tanks.

[VOD80]

Those offering advice on ferry tanks, get real. If our opening poster is hiring an aircraft, ferry tanks are not an option to him; back to flightsim kiddies.

:) If that's for me, TurtlePac do collapsible Jerry cans that don't need to be plumbed into the aircraft. Bit pricy though. May be easier, may be more adapted to aircraft use - that's all.

Now, where's my flightsim? ;)

[IO540]

What does one do about venting jerrycans? The pressure difference is quite significant. Obviously the vent needs to be at the top otherwise fuel will come out.

I know of pilots who fly with unofficial ferry tanks, well outside the UK. It is a huge mission capability improver because so many airports don't have avgas.

One case I know uses a thick plastic tank in a wooden frame. It was properly made for the job, and is both vented and "pressurised" by a second pitot tube. I am not sure why it needs the pressure because the plane is low wing and the tank (about 20USG) lives on the back seat, so it is higher than the wing tanks. Obviously the tank does need an external vent because it needs a vent and you don't want fumes in the cockpit, but the reason for the positive pressure is not obvious to me.

[toptobottom]

I've flown (privately) for many years, frequently with a gaggle of jerry cans on the back seat - never had a comment from ; fuellers, CAA members, over picky maintenance jobsworths.... Providing you use your nonce, use high quality and serviceable containers and don't try and pull -4g when they're not strapped in, I can't see there's any issue :ok:

[cockney steve]

@sherburn2LA....I presume you're talking of in-flight refuelling, in which case the 'elf 'n safety jobsworths are more important than W&B.

Firstly, you'd need a written risk assessment, then approved safety-harness,hard-hat and high-vis vest. Your footwear would have to be antistatic and, of course,your mandatory safety-tether would need to carry a proof-loading certification.

If your aircraft is of high-wing design, you'll need to work on your methodology for gaining access to the upper surface (approved step-ladder with appropriate hooks? )

Nearly forgot the goggles, respirator and gloves needed when pouring a volatile,toxic liquid in a windy area. ;)

[patowalker]

What is the legal position on weight and balance when you are out on the wing filling the tanks

Maximum weight, including fuel and jerrycan 20kgs. Toes of both shoes, both knees and palm of one hand must be in contact with the (top of ) wing at all times. The other hand must never raise above the height of the handgrip on the jerrycan placed upright on the wing, plus a clearance of 25mm.

[DBo]

A few years ago I was at the HISWA (boat show) and somebody had a real neat solution for this. It was essentially a 1/2" hose with a very crude one-way valve on one end, arranged so that the fuel could enter the hose from that side, but not exit.

You simply place the fuel container at a point which is higher than the fuel tank (in an aircraft that would be on the wing), dip the one-way valve end into the container, and put the other end in the aircrafts tank. Shake the one-way-valve up and down a few times so that the fuel is lifted up into the hose, and hey presto, instant syphon. His demo 5 liter container drained in 10 seconds or so.

No spilled fuel, no need to suck on a hose, no sloshing and the container is actually in contact with the fuselage, so not a lot of chance for a static buildup.

I still wish I had bought one of those hoses right there and then.

Backpacker, what you're describing is a "jiggle syphon" you can obtain them from Amazon for under a fiver.

Jiggle Syphon: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

[Horace Blok]

From South Africa greetings and I wish you all a wonderful festive season.

What I'm about to type will probably be shot down but here goes.

When I MUST (I've done this once), I fly with as much as 80 litres of Mogas in my STCéd PA 22-150 with 4 X 20 litre metal jerry cans (good quality) in the back of the aerie. Avgas refuelling facilities are not as conveniently located as they once were.

I have an earth strap for all the cans. I ensure they are secure and I make every attempt to contain static by placing fabric (towels) between the cans. When I refuel, I attempt to do the right things right.

* - Neutralise the potential between the Jerry can and the aircraft by making contact with the nose wheel towing attachment and the Jerry Can - and I also have an earth strap I bond between both the Jerry Can and the aircraft when refuelling on top the wing.

* - I use a Mr Funnel - ensures that taints be they water or dirt stay out of the aircraft fuel system.

* - I check the vapour pressure. Being a high wing, its no problem really.

* - I check for Water.

* - I do NOT close the cans afterwards and leave the lids open.

** - This is probably the purpose of the post - what do you suggest? My logic says in the well ventilated aircraft I fly, no problem and obviously, any gas build up dangers are minimised. Am I correct??

* - I then repack them ensuring insulation/isolation from one another.

* - They are secured.

What more really is there to do?

[Sam Rutherford]

Found it!


So, for brevity, no comments on best practice etc. please!


Is it legal, or not? (private flight)


Cheers, Sam.

[Flyingmac]

Who cares? It's common practice.

[Vilters]

I would not even think about it.

I went for fuel for the garden equipment in winter time around 0°C.

Now it is 20°C here.

Last weeks, I had to relieve pressure form the cans at regular intervals.
The fuel and air in the cans heating up build pressure inside the cans.

And that is while not even leaving the ground.

I dare not imagine what a 8.000 ft density altitude would add to that pressure.

No fuel in cans in my airplane, thank you.

[Mach Jump]

Hi Sam. Although I'm not able to find a reference for you at the moment, I understand that even carrying a litre of engine oil in the passenger cabin is now illegal.(dangerous goods) If that's the case, I'm sure 20 litres of avgas will be.


MJ:ok:

[Flyingmac]

How about 2,000 ltrs>


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF-4Ch5gcdw

[Mariner9]

I would not even think about it.

I went for fuel for the garden equipment in winter time around 0°C.

Now it is 20°C here.

Last weeks, I had to relieve pressure form the cans at regular intervals.
The fuel and air in the cans heating up build pressure inside the cans.

And that is while not even leaving the ground.

I dare not imagine what a 8.000 ft density altitude would add to that pressure.

No fuel in cans in my airplane, thank you.

With respect, some misconceptions in the above post.

I routinely ship gasoline, crude oil, naphtha etc etc samples by air world wide. There are certain (IATA) regulations with regard to packing and dangerous good declarations that have to be followed, but its nothing onerous. Jerry cans would be fine provided they were further packed into crates in accordance with the regs.

Indeed, typical sample cans used for gasoline are far less robust than jerry cans, so I would have no concerns regarding pressures etc. Particularly the case for Avgas, which is a low vapour pressure fuel in any event (if it wasn't it would rapidly vaporise at altitude)

Incidentally, "venting the cans at intervals" would have no affect on reducing pressure other then momentarily - the fuel will quickly regain equilibrium pressure (which is based upon a liquid's vapour pressure and temperature) once re-sealed.

M9 (Consultant fuel scientist)

[9 lives]

Incidentally, "venting the cans at intervals" would have no affect on reducing pressure other then momentarily - the fuel will quickly regain equilibrium pressure (which is based upon a liquid's vapour pressure and temperature) once re-sealed.

Which might be fine if the container is completely full. But if there is an airspace in the container, being not completely full (because you filled it to the nominal capacity as marked) then there is quite a lot of airspace, which is going to build pressure with altitude increase.

I won't say that I have never done it, but I sure do it as little as possible, and with caution, at low altitude!

[Mark 1]

I can't think of anything in the ANO etc that explicitly bans the carrying of Jerry cans of Avgas.

It is done very widely by the floatplane and bush pilots in Canada and Alaska. Often carried in the floats.

The Alaska Bushwheels people advertise a five gallon collapsible container (http://www.airframesalaska.com/LargeBag-p/5.2bag.htm) for 'Liquids'. I don't think there's much doubt about its intended use. That also benefits from not needing venting and can be rolled up after use.

Last time I needed to do it was for flying to North East Canada and I used the polyethylene jugs that motor racers commonly use. They can be secured easily and have a safety vent in the handles.

[Sam Rutherford]

For the UK at least:


http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2384&pageid=13193 (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2384&pageid=13193)


Cheers, Sam.

[Mark 1]

Sam,

The Dangerous goods legislation points to ICAO Doc 9284 for the definition of dangerous goods.

The only snag with that is that document is only available to commercial operators and not to Joe Public.

There are many things that the airlines prohibit, but are regularly carried on private flights like fire extinguishers and gas bottles in life-jackets and rafts.

I can't recall that the act has ever been invoked for a private flight. It would be hard to convict someone for not obeying instructions that he was not permitted to access.

The 'endangering aircraft' rule is far less specific and would be up to a court to decide what is reasonable. A life raft or extinguisher activating in a small cockpit is a significant hazard, but one that is readily accepted

[Mariner9]

Which might be fine if the container is completely full. But if there is an airspace in the container, being not completely full (because you filled it to the nominal capacity as marked) then there is quite a lot of airspace, which is going to build pressure with altitude increase.


Sorry, but that is plain wrong.

I say again, the pressure within the vapour phase of the can will depend only upon the RVP (Reid Vapour Pressure) and temperature of the liquid. External pressure will have no influence on the pressure within whatsoever (though it will of course affect the differential pressure between the can and its environment).

Gasoline vapour pressure at 20C is above atmospheric, but not by much. If the can can therefore readily survive being taken to 10K feet empty - it could do so when filled with gasoline. As I said above, I routinely ship gasoline in cans in aircraft - they have to (and will) withstand possible explosive cabin depressurisation at FL380 and therefore FL100 in GA is no problem whatsoever from a pressure POV.

Incidentally, an "airspace" is absolutely necessary to allow for possible volumetric expansion of the liquid contents due temperature increase. (The design of a standard jerry can is such that it cannot be accidentally overfilled to ensure there is always sufficient liquid expansion space).

All that said however, I am not advocating wilful shipping of gasoline jerrycans in light aircraft. Whilst I would be unconcerned about pressure for the reasons set out above, the increased fire risk in the event of crash would have to be considered and mitigated for. The legality of such carriage would also have to be confirmed - hence Sam's question.

[Sam Rutherford]

UK CAA appear to be on the point of confirming that, in any event, UK régulations are not applicable outside of the UK...

[horizon flyer]

Just as a note.

I have a small boat on the Thames with a 35hp Honda outboard with 2x 30ltr plastic detachable tanks with snap on fuel lines.

I come across the follow problems frequently.

Filling fuel cans with mogas is restricted at UK fuel stations. The limits are 5ltr in a plastic can or 10ltr in a metal can but unrestricted in a detachable fuel tank. Some don't know the rules some do i.e Sainsburys but don't know the difference between a tank and can so won't fill anything over 5ltr.

[Maoraigh1]

We're now (and still) in the EU The restrictions you quote are for fuel carried in a vehicle for use in it. The volume which can be transported in a private vehicle for your use in, eg a plane or boat, is much higher. It used to be 200 litres but might now be 299???

[UV]

The Dangerous goods legislation points to ICAO Doc 9284 for the definition of dangerous goods.

The only snag with that is that document is only available to commercial operators and not to Joe Public.

There are many things that the airlines prohibit, but are regularly carried on private flights like fire extinguishers and gas bottles in life-jackets and rafts.

I can't recall that the act has ever been invoked for a private flight.

In the UK petrol is a forbidden item on private flights according to the UK CAA Advice on the carriage of Dangerous Goods (Private Flights).

Just look here under flammable liquids.
Dangerous Goods | Aircraft | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2384&pageid=13193)

[Mark 1]

UV

I find that page singularly unhelpful. It does not quote specific regulations and seems to be a regurgitation of the advice for passengers on commercial flights.

"Advice" on a web page that isn't backed up by chapter and verse, is of no real use.

I would suggest contacting the CAA with specific details and requesting specific reference to any applicable regulation.

[UV]

It does not quote specific regulations and seems to be a regurgitation of the advice for passengers on commercial flights.



Thats right...
The CAA's view has always been that the same Dangerous Goods advice applies to private flights as commercial operations.

See here as well...
https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2428
where it says...
The UK legal requirements for the carriage of dangerous goods by air are contained within the Air Navigation (Dangerous Goods) Regulations AN(DG)Rs and are applicable to all aircraft registered in the UK and all foreign registered aircraft operating within UK airspace, including private pilots, aircraft and helicopters owners and operators

Seems clear to me.

[Mark 1]

The UK legal requirements for the carriage of dangerous goods by air are contained within the Air Navigation (Dangerous Goods) Regulations AN(DG)Rs and are applicable to all aircraft registered in the UK and all foreign registered aircraft operating within UK airspace, including private pilots, aircraft and helicopters owners and operators

And those regulations define dangerous goods according to Doc 9284, which is not available to private pilots. Which brings us full circle.

Suffice to say that I didn't request permission for carrying pyrotechnic flares and an unapproved life raft on a private flight.

[UV]

And those regulations define dangerous goods according to Doc 9284, which is not available to private pilots. Which brings us full circle.

Its here ...

https://ia700700.us.archive.org/31/items/gov.law.icao.9284.2011/icao.9284.2011.pdf

Just a few seconds googling found it.

Sorry I dont see your problem with this!

[Mark 1]

That's interesting as you won't find that document on the ICAO web site and it doesn't appear to be the current edition or on an official government web site.

That said, a brief look at it shows that there is a limited reference to dangerous goods of the operator in section 2.2.1. Most everything else seems to apply to goods or freight consigned by a passenger or freight forwarder.

I still think that this is a murky grey area for private flights. For instance the carriage of pyrotechnic flares is not required for private flights and doesn't qualify for the exemption of 2.2.1a, but they are routinely carried on over water flights. I'd still be interested if there was a published version of the current 9284 as ICAO explicitly won't authorise its public availability.

I presume Sam is interested in either travelling through or operating in areas where avgas isn't easily available. The options are either getting drums of Avgas delivered in advance, installing ferry tanks or carrying fuel containers on board the aircraft. That third option is not unusual and routinely done by pilots flying in those areas. If the proper precautions are taken it isn't unduly hazardous. The CAA is notoriously difficult in approving ferry tanks. The FAA can issue a field approval and that is normally accepted by other states for ferry operations.

[Flyingmac]

So. To sum up.


When filling cans at a petrol station. Leave them in the boot.


When carrying them in your aircraft, strap them in well. As close to the CoG as possible.


Don't do aeros.


Don't smoke.


Happy flying.;)

[Romeo Tango]

As in so many things it is easier to be forgiven afterwards than to get permission before.

[tecman]

FM, I know it was a jest but you absolutely must not fill them in the boot from a safety perspective. The containers should sit on the ground, and it's wise to equalize the potential between the car, containers, you and the pump before you start filling.

[Flyingmac]

Jest????:rolleyes:

[tecman]

Assumed you were reponding to the mentioned difficulties encountered at some service stations when they see the size and nature of what you're filling. Apologies if I mis-read. But the containers have to be out of the car when filling.

[Flyingmac]

Mine never are:). I guess I've had 30 lucky years. Time to stop?

[tecman]

Being facetious, global warming might indeed be a cause to re-think! But it's true that a humid or wet climate tends to suppress spark generation. While many people know about static 'zaps' when getting out of cars due to charge build-up, one spark mechanism not always mentioned is that which comes from charge build-up during the act of transferring the fuel itself. Both are reduced in the wet. Guess it's a question of how lucky you feel.

In Australia, we have regular service station forecourt episodes stemming from people filling their boat, mower etc containers located in the car or, in one recent case worthy of a Darwin award, while holding the plastic container.

I regularly transport and fill jerry cans to re-fuel my aircraft and, with care, it's a safe operation. There are quite a few re-fuelling guides around, including an AOPA article:

Do-It-Yourself Don'ts When fueling your airplane, it pays to be safe - Flight Training (http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2008/July/200807_Features_DoItYourself_Donts.html)

[9 lives]

Portable gasoline containers must be on the ground before being filled.

You ground the airplane before you fill it, gasoline cans are similarly not grounded (bonded to the gasoline pump) until you do something to ground them. As automotive gasoline stations do not have grounding cables to bond the cans to the pump, "grounding" them is the only way.

The hose between the pump and the nozzle has a bonding wire, so if the nozzle is the first thing to bond the pump to the neck of the can, a spark could result.

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