Cirrus SR22 G2 operating costs

[VMC-on-top]

Are there any Cirrus SR22 G2 owners / drivers on here who could either share or PM some "real world" operating costs?

thanks.

[Tolka]

VMC

Others will probably give you the detailed information you require but be aware that the BRS parachute needs to be replaced after 10 years. This will need to be built into the costs.

Tolka

[wsmempson]

ISTR that the BRS replacement is a £12k job.

[Fuji Abound]

I would budget on £15K PA all in excluding fuel, some years a little less, some years more, and may vary if your parking costs are lower than average.

[IO540]

How's the 15k made up?

My guess would be

5k annual*
2 x 1k 50hr check*
5k hangarage
3k insurance

?

The above * are well above what I pay on a 2002 TB20 but ISTM that Cirrus owners tend to migrate back to the Cirrus dealer for everything, which probably costs more.

But we are in the right ballpark, anyway, especially if you get a few little suprises.

[Fuji Abound]

Yes, that is about the size of it.

As we all know the cost of maintenance will vary depending on how lucky you are and where you go but most Cirrus owners use the same few maintenance shops.

Obviously some items could be more and others less and doubtless with a real eye to costs and cheap parking you will do better.

I dont think there is any reason that a Cirrus will cost substantially more than a TB20, even if the depreciation on a Cirrus is probably higher.

I would also say there will additional costs associated with the need to replace the chute or the panels should you find yourself with the former time expired or the latter faulty.

[IO540]

The dep on a SR22 is massively more than on a TB20.

Normally I would say do not worry about dep on a private toy :) but some of the figures I have seen are pretty substantial.

[007helicopter]

I share a 2006 G2 SR22 with 2 other guys for the last 4 years and our costs have consistently been based on £240 pcm each that covers hangarage, insurance and contribution to annuals which have been around £3K, we have recently put this up to £300 pcm to build a bigger maintenance fund.

We then charge our selves originally £110.00 pertacho hour wet which we have now increased to £120 per hour with increased fuel costs and there is a proportion of this goes towards ongoing maintenance.

A fantatstic aircraft and if you really want to learn more join the owners association COPA Cirrus Pilot Proficiency Program (CPPP) - Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association (http://www.cirruspilots.org/Content/CPPPHome.aspx)

[IO540]

Your monthlies are then £10800, plus the proportion of the per-hour cost which at a guess is maybe £30/hour - correct? How many hours does the plane do per year?

[Rod1]

IO540

What is your guess on the depreciation?

Rod1

[Fuji Abound]

We should be careful on depreciation.

The market for any ga aircraft at this end of the market is very soft now. There are some real bargains. A good g2 can be had for maybe double the price of a tb20 but will be a newer aircraft. The true test will be how they compare over the next few years.

Buy a new cirrus and the depreciation will be alarming but as a percentage probably no worse than a new top end car.

[yawningdog]

007helicopter...

Based upon say 50hrs per year that works out at £192 / hour wet. Doesn't seem too bad for an SR22. I've seen much higher for rental down here in the south.

[IO540]

A 2002 TB20GT (i.e. one of the last ones made and IMHO the best) seems to fetch £140k or so even today. I have this verified over several sales where I happen to know the background (most people lie about how how much they lost on a sale). One went for quite a bit more but it had TKS and a load of other gear. That is a depreciation of say 25% over 9/10 years, give or take the cost of avionics and other installs.

A 2002 SR22 will have lost a lot more than 25%. Probably closer to 50%. But the reason for this is obvious to me: Cirrus keep churning out new and "better" models, and in this market segment (if you have £200k you probably have £300k, but you probably won't have £1M) this leads to a substantial loss of sales value. This in turn makes an older SR22 good value.

I don't think an SR22 will drop as quick as a top end car. The dep on those is massive. My 1995 Toyota import was about £50k new (in Japan) and is now worth about £2k.

Old TB20s, say 1985, go for £40k but they tend to look the part. Prices in that market (old IFR tourers) have recently taken a big hit.

One SR22 I know of is renting at about £250/hr, which is pretty steep, but having been in that game briefly myself I can see why. They have opened it up to anybody with a PPL, and being a business they have to work the full depreciation into it too.

[VMC-on-top]

The depreciation on the "older" ones was the main reason for the enquiry. I've recently seen a number of G2's for sale in the U.S. for $100 - $120k. Thats a lot of plane for the money!

[IO540]

You will need to fit a DME and an ADF to the US ones - £20k if you want a neat job?

Plus the ferry cost - £5k?

[VMC-on-top]

You will need to fit a DME and an ADF to the US ones - £20k if you want a neat job?

Plus the ferry cost - £5k?

Still, a bargain having taken such a huge hit on depreciation?

[IO540]

Yes, possibly.

With other bits like the cost of a detailed prebuy inspection (basically paying somebody to fly out there with you) you are talking about perhaps £100k, which is about right for a well equipped 10 year old plane in that class on which everything works and the engine is about mid-life.

On top of that is the import VAT :)

I would definitely get any avionics done in the USA, not in the UK (much cheaper, and avoids paying the VAT at this end) but do carefully select the avionics shop as avionics cowboys are not limited to certain countries.

[Fuji Abound]

I wouldnt bother with the adf; few owners do and its days are numbered even if it is strictly a current legal requirement. If you are never caught flying an adf approach, and there arent many where it is of much use, i dont even see it being an insurance issue. If you get the approach that wrong you will probably be dead anyway.

Io i am not sure you can compare a tb20 with a cirrus, they come from different generations; you would have to compare what a new tb20 would cost today and at what rate it would depreciate. It might still do better than a cirrus for the reasons you give but it also might cost even more to make especially without any french subsidies.

As to cars and aircraft it is during those first few years the depreciation really hurts - your toyota is like piper warriors most of the depreciation has washed through and if you find a good one who wouldnt buy!

[007helicopter]

Your monthlies are then £10800, plus the proportion of the per-hour cost which at a guess is maybe £30/hour - correct? How many hours does the plane do per year?


We do around 170 hours on average and the finances have worked out fine with a reasonably healthy positive balance although maintenance costs have been reasonable we accept they are likely to increase. This also covers Garmin, charts updates, dingy service, plus we pay $750 USD to www.savvymx.com (http://www.savvymx.com) who have saved us a large ammount on maintenance costs and can arrange Pre Buys in the USA very competent pre buys in the USA.

[007helicopter]

I wouldnt bother with the adf agreed and neither did we, the 2 GNS 430's and approach plates on CMAX provide everything from a practical point of view

[IO540]

Io i am not sure you can compare a tb20 with a cirrus, they come from different generations; you would have to compare what a new tb20 would cost today and at what rate it would depreciate. It might still do better than a cirrus for the reasons you give but it also might cost even more to make especially without any french subsidies.One cannot compare a 2002 TB with a late model glass cockpit SR22, sure.

But I don't get your "French subsidies" comment :)

Re depreciation of different aircraft, I am sure the high SR22 dep is driven by a constant stream of new models. Since almost anybody with 250k will be able to stretch to 300k, etc, this quickly dumps the older stuff on the market. Products from companies which innovate[d] more slowly ;) (like Mooney or Socata for example) show much less depreciation. Some would say this is a bad thing but you can always stick a G500 into a TB, for about 40-50k.

I think the build quality of Diamond airframes is poor and they depreciate quickly too, but I don't think the build quality if SR22s is particularly poor. Not as good as a TB but no real issues either. So the depreciation of SR22s has to be driven mostly by the new model output.

[Fuji Abound]

IO550

My comment about Socata and state subsidies was no more than that; I presume that Socata has received some subsidies from the French government over the years as the French government are pretty good at looking after their own. Nothing wrong with that. ;)

Your views about the factors that drive the market are interesting. I agree that the numerous innovations Cirrus has introduced has encouraged those able to do so to "upgrade" to their latest offering although I think the gap between a top end Cirrus and a turbo prop may be too small.

However I guess the point I was seeking to make is that a TB20 fitted with similiar "technology" couldnt be produced for much less than a Cirrus and in reality would almost certainly cost more. I dont believe that Cirrus are hugely profitering and I do believe they have done a pretty good job at enjoying what economies of scale they could. Therefore to compare like with like we would need to understand what a TB20 would sell for new today and how a TB20 would depreciate compared with a Cirrus. I think for the reasons you have given a TB20 would be more expensive but the depreciation would be a little slower. I also think that the depreciation on a new aircraft has accelerated enormously over the last few years. You know as well as I there are all sorts of reasons for this, which are not only limited to the "recession". I think it is fair to say that it is a "buyers" market and until we have a clearer idea where EASA could lead us, how long we will be able to go on putting lead in Avgas etc., things are not going to change any time soon.

[IO540]

I don't know if Socata got subsidies, but if they had, their pricing was not out of line at the time - £200k+VAT for a TB20GT with all the factory options. The TB21 was £260k+V.

If anything they were too pricey, and the overpriced lower models (TB10 etc) didn't really sell after about 1985. A TB10 was 150k but a C172 was 120k at the time.

There is still a big gap between a new SR22 and a Jetprop based on a later-model (but still used) PA46 airframe which will cost you about $1.2M ($1.7M new, currently). Plus VAT of course.

Mind you, the Cessna 400 comes awfully close at $800k, with performance figures which cannot be realised without a great deal of oxygen. I really think they are too close to a Jetprop which is way more capable.

There are probably loads of reasons for the Cirrus depreciation:

- new models constantly coming out
- market flooded with used ones
- a dislike of "plastic planes" among many pilots (GA, especially US, is very conservative)
- bad press on safety (probably unjustified given the numbers sold)
- bad press on any prangs (lots of people love to see a Cirrus crash, because the chute is seen as "unfair" by a load of old codgers)
- the current economic climate

Towards the end of production in 2003 or so, Socata did jack up their prices a lot, with a 20% rise for 2003, from 2002.

I don't think avgas is an issue as yet because there are no avtur alternatives below the $1M+ level that would be considered proven enough for going anywhere seriously. Also avgas will never go away in the USA, until there is a "100UL" fuel done and dusted.

I have often posted my views on glass cockpit avionics (especially the old Avidyne stuff) and going to far corners of Europe :)

[A and C]

I have to take issue with IO540 on the Diamond build quality issue, the main problem is that almost all the peope who look after GRP aircraraft don't know the first thing about maintenance of GRP structures resulting is very poor minor repairs this might result in the impression that the structure is not very sound, bigger repairs that could be done in the UK are going back to the factory and so pushing up the cost because most UK maintenance companys dont have the skill to work on GRP.

The Cirrus structure is not very advanced and by European standards weighs a bit too much but it is sound.

The situation regarding major repair is under review at Diamond and it is looking as if they will have a two types of service centre soon, those who can do the basic maintenance (most of the UK industry) and those who can do major composite repairs.

If you have a major problem with a Cirrus the best thing to do would be to talk to Cirrus UK they will point you towards companies that can fix Composite structures......... and it is unlikely to be any of the usual maintenance suspects.

[IO540]

The Diamond build quality is only partly the composite (you must have seen whole wings having to be scrapped because the gelcoat bubbled up); it is the numerous metal parts which are poorly plated and rust rapidly.

[A and C]

Whole wing scrapped because of bubbled gel coat ???????

I would have to take view of the corroded bits but on the whole we would replace or fix them.

IO540 I don't doubt for one second that you are telling the truth but to me it just underlines the lack of GRP repair skill within the industry.

As for a bubbled gel coat I dont think that it is to much of a problem.

I know for sure of one Diamond aircraft that was writen off (I think at Shoreham) that we could have fixed without any problems at all.

[wsmempson]

I'm also told my my insurance broker that Cirrii are viewed with quite a degree of circumspection from their side, with talk of pretty hefty excesses.

[IO540]

Yes; a report went round in mid-2010 of a UK insurer upping the excess on Cirrus insurance from ~ 3k to ~ 15k, immediately after a UK chute pull.

The appearance and timing of this suggested that the insurer thought that the particular pilot could have done something smarter.

A&C - the gelcoat issues were not from new; they appeared after some time. If this was my plane, I would be concerned about how far down the defective composite was.

[A and C]

It's not to hard to get under the gel coat and have a look at the structure, the problem is putting the gel coat back on! but we do this on almost every repair we do so it is not out of the question, you just have to know how.

The Cirrus Chute deployment is an interesting one having looked at the aircraft it is little dammaged and the AAIB assisted by one of the better players in the avionic business could not find anything wrong with the aircraft. the balance of probabilitys would say this was a lack of pilot skill that started the problem and it could have ended in the death of all aboard had the guy not had the nouse to deploy the chute. I say this with some caution as only those on in the aircraft at the time know the whole story.

[IO540]

I hope the avionics were scrapped.