tree-fife-niner

[Plasmech]

How do you ladies and gents say "359" over the radio:

A. tree-fife-niner

B. three-five-niner (this is what I do)

C. three-five-nine

For some reason, I just can't seem to bring myself to naturally say "tree" or "fife". Is it accepted and legal to not do this? Thanks.

[ZeBedie]

Depends what's more important - your vanity, or your need to be understood.

[Scalper]

I round it up to 360 :E

[Plasmech]

What is Kay-beck? The letter "Q"?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Tree Fife Niner, Keebek.

There's the right way as published by ICAO, and lots of other ways.

I like doing it the ICAO way, it's just part of the fun arcane nature of aviation.

I did get corrected on "tree" the other day by a stupid and analy retentive air trafficer at a certain airfield near Milton Keynes :ugh: Okay, "three" may be fine between native English speakers on correct RT, but it's still technically incorrect and you don't correct people for not using it.

G

[Plasmech]

Here in the US, especially in cities, we generally say:

ATC: "Cactus 1234, please say airspeed"

Cactus 1234: "Yo homes, I dun be at uh twee fife nine-ah knots on my rope, you hear what I'm sayin' yo, peace?"

[J.A.F.O.]

How do you ladies and gents say "359" over the radio:

North ..........

[Genghis the Engineer]

Here in the US, especially in cities, we generally say:

ATC: "Cactus 1234, please say airspeed"

Cactus 1234: "Yo homes, I dun be at uh twee fife nine-ah knots on my rope, you hear what I'm sayin' yo, peace?"

A perfect example of why correct phraseology is so important - those all-too-common cases where neither the pilot nor controller has English as a first language.

G :E

[Plasmech]

North ...

stop, I'm laughing my socks off. :rolleyes:

[Tarq57]

From long (and occasional unhappy) experience:

Three has the potential to be mistaken for "two" (and vice versa).

"Tree" is correct, sounds somewhat dorky, and IMO the most important annunciation to prevent confusion is the "ee" sound. Likewise with "two" the "oo" sound should be clear.

Not that I'm actually suggesting a personal variance to the standard; what I'm suggesting is to learn why the standard is the way it is. Understand what is behind the rules, and you understand why they should be followed and where they might be not quite adequate, in rare cases.

Five and nine are regularly confused if not pronounced correctly. The ICAO pronunciation should always be used with these two.

[Pilot DAR]

Yeah, "qwee-beck" can be awkward to say. You can also try this phonetic alphabet, to get around some of those pesky ICAO words:

A Aileen (eye—lene)
B Boxtop (box—top)
C Cesium (seas—c—um)
D Dung (dung)
E Eugene (you—jean)
F Felt (felt)
G Greco (greco)
H Hanky (hanky)
I Ixtapa (icks—tapa)
J Julio (who’-li—o)
K Knarly (narl—lee)
L Linoleum (lin—o—lee—um)
M Mango (mang—go)
N Naught (not)
O Oleo (o—lee—o)
P Panky (panky)
Q Qualm (cwalm)
R Richter (rick—ter)
S September (sept—em—ber)
T Tike (tike)
U Unite (you—night) :
V Vacuform (vac—you—form)
W Wolf (wolf)
X Xylene (zie—lean)
Y Yuppy (yuppy)
Z Zinger (zinger)

[Jan Olieslagers]

I have taken to rolling the final R in niner (and elesewhere), the way I think it is done colloquially in Scotland. After all it was added by ICAO for the sake of unambiguity so I can best make it stand out. Never got any comments.
As for "tree" versus "three", I have never used a radio that allowed hearing the difference.

Agreed with with Genghis that it is NOT done to correct people on their pronounciation, except where absoltutely necessary for the clarity of communications. Wasn't it a basic principle to keep the frequency as unoccupied as possible?

And while we're on the subject of non-native speakers: French and Italians are quite easily picked out by their accent, no need for cues - and if you hear someone pronouncing "zero" as "see-row" you can bet he's Dutch.

[Genghis the Engineer]

"see-row" would be fairly normal in spoken British English, it's just still incorrect RT.

G

[Conventional Gear]

I started out using tree fife niner - and felt a bit of a twit as nobody else seemed to bother.

Then switching frequencies one day

contact x on 3xx.0

Read back

contact x on 3xx.0

Negative I say again contact x on 3xx.0

and so it went on, until I read back

contact x on tree xx.0

Stick with it perhaps it will catch on, it's no more daft to do things properly with your RT than it is to plan properly. Good RT, and just as importantly good pronunciation gets you places. When you hear it done right btw it sounds so much more professional, it's easy to pick that pilot out from the rest of the eers and waffle.

[SFCC]

There's a London Sector controller who loves his "see-rows"

Still makes me laugh after all these years.

PPL's trying too hard also make me inwardly laugh. As is evident from this thread:}

[jayeff]

Funny, I was thinking about this only the other day, when I heard ATC use "day-see-mal" for the first time (not that he used it for the first time - I heard it for the first time).

Being a very low-hours PPL, and the skies of East Anglia not being massively crowded, I've obviously not got a lot of RT under my belt as yet, but I have to say that virtually all the RT I've heard to date has been in plain English, other than "fife" and "niner".

[Hamish 123]

SFCC

"PPLs trying too hard . . . ."

What, doing what they have been taught to do and say?

My apologies for flying in the same skies which you so clearly own.

[DB6]

Occasionally, particularly with Southern English accents, 'too' and 'tree' are indistinguishable. For that reason I never say 'tree', indeed I think it would be better pronounced 'free'. 'Fife' is superfluous, 'niner' I do say but not all the time. A lot of this has to do with a time when radios were not as good as they are now, or with e.g. HF communications. In reality you can just carry out a normal conversation and everyone will know what you're saying.

[Tarq57]

"Twee" seems to work better than "tree". Maybe better than "free", too.

At least you merely sound a bit froo froo, saying twee, rather than three years old, saying free.:}

[The Old Fat One]

When I started out 359 was ....

...-- ..... ----.

Seriously...and as an ex comms instructor.

It depends on the comms environment...the harder/more confusing/poorer the comms conditions, the greater the need for technical precision. It also depends on your knowledge and experience to know what matters and what doesn't.

Others will disagree, but I never used "tree" or "fife" either (although I always used "niner"....weird isn't it??)

[Piltdown Man]

I spend my time in Europe and just to make sure, I speak as clearly as I can with people who's first language isn't English (I also do the same with the Brits). Having said that, most controller's English is usually pretty good but even so, I still say "Tree - Fife - Niner" and all that sort of stuff because it makes it simpler for people to understand what I have said.

PM

[2 sheds]

Does it occur to anyone that the ICAO phonetic versions are merely the best attempt to indicate the normal, clear English pronunciation? I have English as my first language and do not need to be told how to pronounce "one" but many other people would need it clarified because of our rather strange spelling. The fact that the pronunciation is specified as "wun" does not require me to speak any differently.

About 2 and 3, as Tarq57 says:
the most important annunciation to prevent confusion is the "ee" sound. Likewise with "two" the "oo" sound should be clear.


2 s

[kalleh]

Define "normal clear english pronunciation". I have yet to find a native brit achieve that ;)

[Pilot DAR]

It depends on the comms environment...the harder/more confusing/poorer the comms conditions, the greater the need for technical precision. It also depends on your knowledge and experience to know what matters and what doesn't.



I quite agree with this. As long as the parties directly involved in the communication are both satisfied that the communication was clear, the objective has been met. Old radios and microphones were not as good as more recent ones. Communications were not as clear. I find things to be better now, with the occasional aircraft with a poor transmission. We don't need to be as anal, as long as the clarity is there.

I manage to communicate with simple english nearly all the time, When there is a miss, revert right away to the phonetic language. If that clears things up, great. I don't launch into long spelling out of communcations, unless it is apparent that it will be required for clarity.

North Americian VFR controlled airspace seems to me to be generally a place of fairly understandable English, though with differing accents. It is only more recently that pilots and students from far away places are more prominent. Certainly I have heard uninteligible radio transmissions in recent years, which have resulted in the controller replying "Remain clear of the airspace".

However, where the communication has been clear and understandable, I cannot recall a controller being fussy as to pronuciation, or the use of the phonetic language.

[IO540]

"HP", using Pilot-DAR's alphabet, would get a bit of a reaction over here :)

[Pilot DAR]

would get a bit of a reaction over here

Yeah, we in North America, love to wind up the British!

[Jan Olieslagers]

Makes good sport from the Continent, too.
Serve them right for wanting to be a bit of both!

As to the subject of this interesting conversation: as the suspense grew, I could no longer refrain from looking it up in my old ground class syllabus. Now guess what I found there?

3 Three
5 Five
9 Niner

so I guess the FIFE and TREE are just another UK peculiarity. Again, I cannot imagine the difference to be discernable on the average G/A comm's radio. The whole argument seems rather moot, to me.

As for Day-See-Mal: I never heard that, always dee-see-mol

[moreflaps]

I think 2s is correct when saying: "Does it occur to anyone that the ICAO phonetic versions are merely the best attempt to indicate the normal, clear English pronunciation?"

Tree-fife-niner sounds a bit Irish to me...

Cheers

[Jan Olieslagers]

Agreed as regards the 3 and 5. For the 9, I understand the final R was added specifically to avoid confusion with 5.

[flybymike]

Define "normal clear english pronunciation". I have yet to find a native brit achieve that

Anyone not employed by the BBC.

[2 sheds]

Agreed as regards the 3 and 5. For the 9, I understand the final R was added specifically to avoid confusion with 5.

Indeed - but just a rather clumsy way of emphasising the hard 'n' ending.

2 s

[Deeday]

Pilot DAR, would you seriously recommend that phonetic alphabet as an alternative? I see plenty of opportunities for confusion:


The sound of 'Eugene' suggests a word that starts with U, rather than E. If I remember correctly, the ICAO for X used to be 'Extra', before they changed it to 'X-ray', precisely to avoid this sort of confusion.
'Greco' would be very easily confused with the ICAO 'Echo'.
'Julio' is unambiguous only to Spanish speakers; in English, 'J' never sounds like who.
I wonder how many aviation professionals know what xylene is, how it is pronounced or spelled...

[klxracer]

Moreflaps comment that "Tree-fife-niner sounds a bit Irish to me..." struck a chord with me. I'm currently training, and thus trying to get into good habits, but I always find that my landing call for runway 34 results in me sounding like I am putting on an irish accent. It's the 'tree' that does it - every time.

[Slopey]

I read "tree", "fife", "nine-hole" and thought this was another Biggles thread ;)


(forgot to add the nine-hole bit first time round!!)

[patowalker]

I read "tree" and "fife" and thought this was another Biggles thread ;)

:):):) Made me laugh out loud!

[Pilot DAR]

Pilot DAR, would you seriously recommend that phonetic alphabet as an alternative? I see plenty of opportunities for confusion:


No, I'm not serious about it at all, it's humour I concocked decades ago to wrankle some overly officious pilot types. I applied some thought to come up with replacement words, which would appear to be the most confusing. It has served well since to demonstrate how words can be confused, when transmitted with less than ideal clarity.

Though a few of the words of the present phonetic language may seem a little odd, it its the world standard, and as such, very appropriate as a tool for clear communications. As is probably common with students of radio work, we have all of our voluneer firefighters practice it while driving, reading licence plates.

By the way, I agree with Jan; THREE, FIVE, NINER.

I have never, in 34 years of flying, been challenged as to my pronunciation with the phonetic language, even when I did just say "NINE".

[patowalker]

By the way, I agree with Jan; THREE, FIVE, NINER.

You agree that "FIFE and TREE are just another UK peculiarity"?

[Neptunus Rex]

The story goes that one night, over darkest India, where comms are notoriously por, Nigel (for it was he) was becoming increasingly frustrated with the Indian controller's attempts to pass a clearance.


Nigel "Enunciate your vowels, man, eeenunciate!"


Anonymous voice of a laid-back Cousin "Aaasshole! Is that better?"

[FlyingForFun]

The UK position is very clear, and is defined in CAP413. I've been trying to find an official ICAO reference, to see if the UK is different to ICAO, but I can't anything official on-line. The best I can find is this Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet) article.

As far as I can tell, the UK is not peculiar in using TREE and FIFE. The Wikipedia article gives these pronunciations, says that they have come from FAA and ICAO publications, and doesn't include any notes about them being specific to any particular country. (It does contain lots of other country-specific information, so it is reasonable to take the lack of information as an indication that the author believes the information is applicable internationally.)

There are a couple of things which make the UK unique though. The first is that this is our native language. The use of "T" at the beginning of "three" can be easily explained by the fact that a "TH" sound is difficult for many foreign language speakers, because it isn't a sound which is used in their own language - so it makes perfect sense to prescribe "TREE" as the correct pronunciation for international use. But, as native speakers, it is much easier for us to use "three", and when the listener is also a native English speaker there really isn't any possibility of confusion. Although officially it's not correct, I can't see any reason why anyone applying any common sense would object to it.

The other thing which makes the UK unique as that we, as a race, seem to like analysing minutiae like this, while the rest of the world just gets on with it! ;)

FFF
--------------

[Genghis the Engineer]

You agree that "FIFE and TREE are just another UK peculiarity"?

They aren't however, the ICAO Manual (http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Doc%209432%20-%20Manual%20of%20Radiotelephony/DOC%209432%20-%204%20ed.%202007.pdf) at page 19 is very clear:

Ze-ro
Wun
Too
Tree
FOW-er
Fife
Six
SEV-en
Ait
NIN-er
Dey-See-Mal

...

G

[FlyingForFun]

Genghis - I've spent hours (well, ok then, a few minutes) looking for that document, and couldn't find it! Thank you!

FFF
-------------

[patowalker]

They aren't however, the ICAO Manual (http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Doc%209432%20-%20Manual%20of%20Radiotelephony/DOC%209432%20-%204%20ed.%202007.pdf) at page 19 is very clear:

Thanks Genghis. I looked for that doc, but could only find it for sale at £38, which I thought was bit too much to prove a point. :)

[Jan Olieslagers]

Genghis, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing out that elusive document! Perusing it, I came upon several things that I learned otherwise, and are practised otherwise round here, such as no more using "go ahead" on first contact.
As for the table you cited, it seems to me too like an effort at phonetisation for the benefit of non-native speakers.

[patowalker]

Yep. Try to get a non-English speaker to pronounce eight, straight off the page.

[cumulusrider]

Define "normal clear english pronunciation". I have yet to find a native brit achieve that .

To quote from "My Fair Lady" In america they havnt spoken it for years!

[n5296s]

Wow! I've never any of this nonsense on the radio in the US - niner, yes, but not tree or fife. I mean, why stop there? Why not give ALL of the digits pronunciations that bear little resemblance to their normal everyday pronunciation? Of course non-native speakers may have trouble with "th" and say "tree", everyone will understand anyway. More likely they'll say "sree" as in the hilarious youtube short (which I can't be bothered to find a link to) of the sailor reporting to a German coastguard station that he is sinking.

(I thought "niner" was at the request of the Germans because of possible confusion with "nein").

I haven't had so much fun with pronunciations since Norcal approach was fleetingly called Sierra Approach, leading to "Sierra Approach, Sierra one two three (sorry, tree) sierra sierra with sierra for landing at Sierraville".

[Genghis the Engineer]

Wow! I've never any of this nonsense on the radio in the US - niner, yes, but not tree or fife. I mean, why stop there? Why not give ALL of the digits pronunciations that bear little resemblance to their normal everyday pronunciation? Of course non-native speakers may have trouble with "th" and say "tree", everyone will understand anyway. More likely they'll say "sree" as in the hilarious youtube short (which I can't be bothered to find a link to) of the sailor reporting to a German coastguard station that he is sinking.

(I thought "niner" was at the request of the Germans because of possible confusion with "nein").

I haven't had so much fun with pronunciations since Norcal approach was fleetingly called Sierra Approach, leading to "Sierra Approach, Sierra one two three (sorry, tree) sierra sierra with sierra for landing at Sierraville".

Nonsense?

I've had trouble in the USA with "southern drawl dialect" controllers struggling with my "BBC English" accent, and my having trouble understanding them on RT with a knackered radio in a noisy rental Cessna. Using clear standard pronounciation got us through each time, without it we'd have had real troubles.

We need standard pronounciation for exactly these reasons - and you may as well practice them when speaking to somebody who speaks the same language, dialect and accent as you do - so you get it right when you aren't.

G