Brace Position

[Mr Optimistic]

There was a discussion on the practicalities of the brace position for tall people a while back.

On my last few trips with EZY up to Glasgow I considered the space available to the seat back and concluded that perhaps in an emergency I might just about do it.

Just been speaking to aged relatives back from Madeira who fly Thompson. Asked them if EZY did it and they said yes, they used them once but wouldn't do so again. The reason, surprisingly, was that neither of them (a 6 footer and a petite woman) thought they could do the brace position owing to the seat pitch. Not the scramble for seats or service level, but the brace position. Surprising what people worry about perhaps but an interesting one.

Perhaps on my next trip one of the CC can sit in my seat and show me :)

[Shell Management]

On impact, momentum carries the seat backs forwards:).
That gives you more space.:ok:

[Mr Optimistic]

Ah, got it, it's all in the timing. ;)

[wowzz]

Isn't it the same theory about a falling [out of control] lift. If you jump up and down, with luck you will be jumping UP when the lift hits the ground, and - Hey Presto - you will be able to walk away with not a single broken bone!!

[spannersatcx]

unless the seat backs are locked upright of course!:eek:

[hellsbrink]

Isn't it the same theory about a falling [out of control] lift. If you jump up and down, with luck you will be jumping UP when the lift hits the ground, and - Hey Presto - you will be able to walk away with not a single broken bone!!

They did that one on Mythbusters. The "theory" failed miserably......

[Mr Optimistic]

Not surprising really, it's all about relative velocity. The one that matters is between you and planet earth, not you and the lift floor !

[Mr Grimsdale]

What's wrong with legs over shoulders?:E

[Capot]

You are in the correct position if you can kiss your ass goodbye....as you may need to do.

[Richair]

Why don't airlines try the Crabair (Royal Air Force Transport Command as it use to be known) system and put all the seats except the aircrew's facing backwards? Many plus points here. Most crashes seem to have the kite going roughly forwards; no need to learn or even know of a 'brace' position; no whiplash; no real need to announce the emergency, as the first thing to happen on "brace - brace" is that a cloud of prayer rises to the heavens, and passengers get in a muddle about what they were told about braces. Just a thought.

[WHBM]

If the Brace Position procedure is part of the validated emergency SOPs, you would expect the CAA to ensure that what is documented on the safety card and given out in the safety briefing is actually capable of being achieved, with a practical demonstration using people of representative height and girth, like the aircraft evacuation test.

Richair, the RAF "backwards" bit seems to date from a "Good Idea At The Time", long ago. Boeing more recently did a much more sophisticated examination of survivability with the seats in either direction, and found that forward facing was better, because a significant number of serious injuries are actually caused by debris of all sorts (baggage, galley equipment, other unrestrained pax, etc) flying forward up the cabin in a sharp deceleration, which forward facing seats give much more protection from than rearward.

[lowcostdolly]

Brace Position
There was a discussion on the practicalities of the brace position for tall people a while back............


Perhaps on my next trip one of the CC can sit in my seat and show me :)

Why would you need the CC to do that Mr Optimistic :confused:

The EZY brace position is very clearly shown on the safety card available to every pax in their seat pocket in pictures (as is all UK airlines)......you would know this had you read this. For somebody who is obviously so safety aware I'm surprised you haven't got round to doing this or indeed ensured your elderly relatives do likewise when traveling.

The CAA will asses whether or not a brace position is achievable on an aircraft type and grant an AOC accordingly as they do the evac procedures etc etc..........

In a pre planned emergency landing/ditching the brace position would again be demonstrated by the CC in accordance with the operators emergency SOP's.

Of course if the aircraft hits an emergency on take off/landing (unplanned) we don't have time to brief you specifically and assume you have actually read the safety card provided to you in your seatpocket and you are told to read in the routine safety demo.....and this includes the brace position you need to adopt when you hear "brace brace" from the Capain and the shouted commands re inforcing this from your CC....

Moral of the story.....read the damn card, the newspaper can wait until inflight :)

[Mr Optimistic]

Steady on lcd !

You are right, this was discussed sometime ago by (I would think) a taller person than me (a towering presence at 5ft 9 1/2 ). It was from memory of this that I posted here.

I read the card on EVERY trip and so do aged relatives. You never know, the location of the exits on a 319/320 might have changed (though I am still not comfortable I understand the wing door opening process:O).

Thing was I was always a bit doubtful whether it could be done without neck strain (not as flexible as I think I once was), but figured I would go fluid in a real emergency. So a bit taken aback when this 'concern' (doesn't really worry me) which has never been discussed between us actually was a choice discriminator.

edit: should have said relative is a 6ft 2 85 year old).

Perhaps we are just lazy ne'er do wells who have nothing better to do, but odd it keeps cropping up. Could it be a genuine concern do you think ?

As for CC trying it: just that, if you have a medium height individual, pls try it and report back ! I thought about doing it last time but felt too visible. Maybe I'll hang back on arrival when there are no witnesses next time.

[WHBM]

The CAA will asses whether or not a brace position is achievable on an aircraft type and grant an AOC accordingly as they do the evac procedures etc etc.
I haven't actually heard of them doing this practical test. Understand it's a signature/rubber stamps exercise by the right number of people. Whenever I (6'0" height, average build, goes running daily) have tried this on a 28" seat pitch IT/LCC aircraft, I can get nowhere near the illustration.

Regarding any additional emergency briefing, do bear in mind that in the Air France A340 overrun and fire at Toronto, the touchdown was followed by the usual (embarassing) Gallic outburst of applause from the pax - which was immediately followed by the Brace command from the flight deck.

[Mr Optimistic]

I'll give it a go next time Glasgow beckons, but if I get questioned for suspicious behaviour I'll be cross.

I was just so surprised that this factored in as a choice of carrier: would never have bothered me. Think the aged relative must buy extra leg room as last time I went anywhere near Thomas Cook (or was it Airtours), I thought I would have to be greased to slither into the seat (and for the avoidance of doubt I weigh 73kg so its not like I have to get past my own stomach).

[Hipennine]

Going back to the first post, I travelled on a Thompson 757 in January, and am surprised that the aged relatives consider that the seat pich is better than Easy. The seats might be higher, and faced with leather, but in my view there is more practical space between the seats on Easy than on Thom. Having sat all over Easy A319's, I've never had my knees against the seat in front, but did so on completely different rows out and back with Thom. In fact on the return leg, after T/o I discovered the row behing was empty and moved, but I still found it an uncomfortable seat. I found the whole Thom 757 experience noisy and claustrophobic, and I'm just a little legged 5'9".

I'm also fit and flexible, and there's no way I could achieve the brace position in either the Thom 757 or an Easy 319.

[Mr Optimistic]

I suspect that if I ram my backside into the seatback and sort of bend round the (stowed) tray and that nasty catch in a sort of circular motion, that it can be done. I shall find out. Think it will be rather inelegant hence the need for privacy !

[lowcostdolly]

Mr Optimistic......my apologies, I misread your post and thourght as you wanted the CC to demonstrate the brace position you hadn't read the wealth of info on this.

In training we had to go through the emergency drills which include the pax brace position in our sim at Luton. I can assure you it is do able although not comfortable.

Furthermore the 319/320 seats will bend forward very easily believe me!! You don't need an impact to test that one on a turnaround and some of our pax will demonstrate it inflight to achieve extra legroom as well ;)

Your relatives choose Thomson over EZY for this reason alone as indicated in your OP?? Have to say I'm surprised given the seat pitch for Thomson shorthaul is less than EZY. :confused:

And yes they can purchase extra legroom......on both carriers.

[passy777]

Moral of the story.....read the damn card, the newspaper can wait until inflight :)


If the pax cannot read, the safety card and indeed the newspaper would be deemed useless anyway.

[Mr Optimistic]

lcd: no problem. Found it rather bizarre myself. I'll tell them they can buy extra leg room (this is to Madeira). Could have understood it if it was a comfort issue, but concern over achieving the brace position -well it shows how diverse your passengers are I guess. Still going to try it myself !

[Avionker]

If the pax cannot read, the safety card and indeed the newspaper would be deemed useless anyway.

Maybe that's why the safety cards have such nice pictures on them.....:ugh:

[TightSlot]

The Brace position is intended to minimise injuries in a survivable crash. It is based upon research by people who know what they are talking about, not made up by individual airlines. There are three main components (In the UK):


Feet flat on the floor, slightly behind the knees - reduces "flail" which can shatter shin bones on the seat rail in front, rendering an otherwise functional survivor immobile.
Arms and Hands - Over back of head (not interlocked finger) and elbows in to reduce flail and protect from flying debris.
Leaning Forward - reduces the chance of submarining or jacknifing which can cause impact injuries and/or internal injuries.
Head Location - Resting the head against whatever it could strike, thereby reducing head impact injuries and chance of unconsciousness.


As in all things aviation, the position is something of a compromise and will clearly accommodate some sizes of human being better than others - for the majority however, it remains a sensible and practical position.

What I find confusing from the previous posts is that this position is clearly viable for any passenger in any seat pitch. If somebody believes that it is not achievable then they have simply not understood what the brace position actually is?

P.S. - There are safety arguments for/against rearward facing seats: Only one side of the argument has been presented above.

[Hipennine]

Sorry to slightly disagree Tightslot, but having studied Ergonomics at University, and particularly the impact of pax environment on crash survivabilities, I feel I can speak with some authority. As a short-legged, long bodied person, in a fully forward lean, the distance from the top of my head to hip fulcrum is more than 29". It is therefore not possible to achieve the optimum position with a seat pitch of 29" (or 31" for that matter), and I'm only 5'9". The compromise that the "authorities" seem to find acceptable is therefore to have the forehead up against the seat in front (to reduce impact injury). Unfortunately, that dramatically increases the chance of a broken neck. Even worse is the picture that you still see with some carriers, with the face/forehead up against the seat back upper.

However, the first point that you mention about foot position is so important. It is smashed shins that will prevent a survivor getting out, and this has proven to be the case in so many accidents involving fire etc. Even with impact only accidents such as Kegworth, many more would have been walking wounded rather than requiring evacuation (and then long term debilitating injury) had they had their feet tucked in as you describe. I automatically get my feet into this position in any take-off and landing just in case. Emphasising this in the safety demo and safety card pics might be more useful than the rest of the brace position.

[TightSlot]

No problems disagreeing Hipennine - that's what it's all about - however, with great respect to your Ergonomics pedigree I feel that the upper body comments somewhat miss the point.

Some kind of compromise upper body brace position has to be established that is practical for a majority of passengers at the normal economy seat pitch range of 28" to 32". It is possible (I don't know) that the position may increase the probability of a broken neck, but that has to be measured against the (demonstrated) probability of unconsciousness from head impact.

There has been a considerable volume of work completed on the Brace position and notwithstanding your credentials, the "authorities" have come up with a viable position, that is perceived by the industry to be realistic. The danger in having individuals come up with possible well-intentioned variations is that they may confuse others. You may well be correct about the inherent dangers of the upper-body brace position, I cannot tell: However, until a majority of your peers agree and the Brace position is adjusted accordingly, please excuse some scepticism.

[Mr Optimistic]

Begining to wish I hadn't raised this....

What I find confusing from the previous posts is that this position is clearly viable for any passenger in any seat pitch. If somebody believes that it is not achievable then they have simply not understood what the brace position actually is?

Perhaps not, no way I can tell. Still they are a couple of fully paid up adults who obviously take it all very seriously (to let such a thing decide their choice of carrier, rightly or wrongly).

[PAXboy]

Increasingly, the brace position is demonstrated by carriers that use video demo. I have seen long haul do this with VS using cartoons and Thom using children (brilliantly if I may say as then children on their predominantly holiday business model more likely to watch).

Whenever I see such videos or look at the card - I am sceptical that I can make it work in Y. I'm of average height and build but have noted over time in these forums that feet position and flying debris are critical and I suppose that I shall try to concentrate on those, even if I cannot get my head further down.

[lowcostdolly]

Hi John......good points :)

The EZY safety demo is "in your seatpocket you will find a safety card.......... It also shows the brace position you must adopt if you hear the command "brace brace".

This is carried out after the Captain has done his welcome on board and drawn attention to the iminent safety demo in which he asks for pax attention. Some will follow the the company spiel, some will ask you to put down magazines etc.

We also had one captain who would say " please pay close attention to the safety briefing as it could save your life one day, hopefully not today" That tended to get more attention than normal from the pax on the demo but still didn't see many of them reading the card when I secured the cabin.

In the event of a pre-planned emergency landing/ditching the CC read the emergency PA which is different to what you hear/see on a routine demo. In this the brace position is explained and time permitting the CC will check the pax are doing this correctly as well.

In an unplanned emergency on take off/landing we won't have time and it's why the card is provided for you to read prior to take off so you can familiarise yourself. Many airlines will now give braile cards to blind pax as well.

The information is provided but we cannot make pax read it unfortunately.

[TightSlot]

Begining to wish I hadn't raised this....

Apologies if I have intimidated you into thinking this - I hadn't intended to do so. As you correctly say, their perception is what matters since they are customers (or potentially so) and therefore the concern needs to be addressed by the airline concerned.

[Mr Optimistic]

Yes, EZY seem very good in this regard, nor have I any complaints about seat pitch. Think I may have wrong idea about brace position so will sort it out next trip.

[SFCC]

I have it from a very good source (company doctor) that the brace position exists solely as as best practice tactic to preserve the dental records of the the unfortunate.

I believe that too.

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Surely if the position was adopted in order to preserve dental records, this must mean that the position actually does some good towards preventing your face getting smashed in. Therefore although there's also the possibility that you could have other bodily organs damaged, your head must be fairly 'protected' no?

[TightSlot]

I have it from a very good source (company doctor) that the brace position exists solely as as best practice tactic to preserve the dental records of the the unfortunate.

I believe that too.

A very old chestnut there - see Here (http://www.snopes.com/travel/airline/brace.asp) if you really believe this

[Capot]

I once did a course on major aircraft accident casualty management, run by that firm that is always called in as morticians and runs the identification process, in UK at least. I forget the name; something like "Kenton"?

We learned that after a high speed impact into the ground, most victims' jaws and teeth are found in their stomachs, usually somewhere in the middle of the compressed mass of tissue. Many colourful slides were shown to illustrate the point. This was also my observation when helping clear up after a Caravelle CFIT into a mountain east of Dubai in the early 70's.

Not a lot of people know that, so I thought I would share it as a contribution to the discussion about the role of the brace position in assisting with dental ID.

[Mr Optimistic]

Yeah, rubbish isn't it. Reminds me of my mother who was convinced AIDS was a CIA thing.

[Chuchinchow]

I have it from a very good source (company doctor) that the brace position exists solely as as best practice tactic to preserve the dental records of the the unfortunate.

OK Right.

Now how would this help to identify the totally edentulous now-dead passengers? After all, one top and bottom acrylic set is like an other.

[Mr Optimistic]

Tried to find the old thread on this but it has been put out of its misery it seems. Well, its humble pie time. No problems achieving brace position according to instruction. Surprising how age counts against flexibility, wish I could get my head lower but nothing can be done about that now. Seat pitch on EZY was more than enough. Bit of aggravation from arm rests and some funny looks from the CC not withstanding.

[Capot]

Perhaps the cabin staff misunderstood what you were trying to do?

[Mr Optimistic]

They looked in no mood for an odd passenger, that's for sure.