Emirates pay rise

[drop kick]

Anyone going to start a Emirates pay rise rumor? The profit share is one thing but it applies to all employees, the pay review sends out a message to potential EK pilots and whether the management have a true understanding of the looming recruitment crisis, or not ;)

My bet 6 % and 10% on flight pay

[ruserious]

not a bad guess, but won't solve the problem, especially for new joining F/O's package. What ever they give us, it will be the least they think they can get away with

[flareflyer]

Hi drop,

I hope management will not read your post because it would be a joke.......:ugh:

6% payrise means no payrise and 10% on the flight pay would offensive!!!!!

They have to come out with something a lot more interesting........

And in the mean time the holding pool is empty..........completely empty........:}
150 invited for may and after that................the emptiness

[Praise Jebus]

6 and 10 is not a pay rise... That would almost take us back to what we lost during that disastrous financial year when Emirates almost failed, where we all had to "share the pain". You remember the year...the one when EK made a record profit...

[fatbus]

9% gets back what they took from us and 20% at least to flt pay

[BigGeordie]

They should restore the "missing" annual increment from when the pain was being shared (excellent post Jebus) plus a realistic increment for inflation. I don't know what the official figure for inflation is but it appears to be getting out of control again and I know my basket of groceries in Spinneys costs a lot more than last year.

[Jolly Foreigner]

EK dentist reckons 20% is in line for us, with 8 weeks bonus - me thinks not!

7% plus the increment and 10% on the hourly rate, with an overtime kick in of 96hrs on a 31 day month and 1000hrs annually due to lack of available new recruits.

:yuk:

[drop kick]

I think that dentist should stay off the laughing gas!!:=

[Mister Warning]

Good one, DK!

[NG_Kaptain]

Just my 2% but I envy you.

[dubaigong]

At Flydubai , after more than 2 years some of us finally got a pay increase of 4,8% on the basic which is around 2,2% ich on the total....:\

We would be more than happy with 6% on basic and 10% on sector pay...:ok:

I know we are low cost and only flying B737 but still....:(:(

[captainsmiffy]

You reap what you sow.......

[slimy]

Seems the UAE has blocked this thread but no problem I used the VPN.........again! Whats wrong with these people?

[Wizofoz]

Seems the UAE has blocked this thread but no problem I used the VPN.........again! Whats wrong with these people?

No, they haven't. Reading it now on Etisalat, no VPN.

I see you are one of those who will immediately jump on a stereotype explanation every time you have a computer glitch.

What's WRONG with YOU?

[Praise Jebus]

Dubaigong, that's where you sell yourself short. You get a crappy pay adjustment and then start thinking another carrier's slightly less crappy one is good. It's not, for you or me, aim higher man.

[dubaigong]

Praise Jebus,

Fine let's aim higher...

I guess that you are more experienced than me here ( I mean in the UAE )
So please feel free to explain to me HOW I could aim higher in a country where union is banned ?

All I have learned since I am here is that you are on your own ; Even worse than in low cost companies ( at least in Europe ) where there is no union BUT where , at least , you are a little bit protected by the law and the government because laws there are designed to protect the weakest ( the workers ) and not the strongest ( the employers ).

Here , a fellow pilot dared to go to express his disagreement to the top management and he has been told that he could be fired right away...

So give us the solution , apart from leaving the country I don't see any and I am not the only one if I look at the reaction of the other pilots of the company...

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Just for comparison purposes, the 4 carriers in the US, that operate the 777, Captain pay rates are approximately: $190, $193, $205 and $217 per block hour
EK will likely be more profitable than all 4 of the above mentioned US carriers combined

Don't you think you just gave yourself the answer to your question?

[Dropp the Pilot]

I just took my gross payable from EK and divided it by 83 and come up with $285 dollars per hour. Admittedly, I have been here some time and have a modicum of "appointment pay" but that caveat can by biased by the fact that I have not included the value of my free loss of license insurance, my (almost) free medical insurance, my free life insurance and my children's school fees. I don't pay any tax on my pay, so drag out your Casio and see what gross income you would need in the US to net that amount.

I suspect the lesson here is (as I have suggested before):

-shut up
-do your job to the best of your abilities
-remain with a company and show some loyalty
-don't expect to be paid $50,000 a month just because you can pass a PPC

In your case, my personal recommendation would be to go with suggestion number one.

[sheikmyarse]

Please tell me Dropp..what kind of drug do you use?
So you are making 24000 dollar a month?
Come on habibi...I know to survive we all have to embellish the truth at times but this is plain bull****. Your salary is more or less 36000 dhs ( 10000 USD) a month + flight pay and you fly 92 hours as a minimum. So just stop telling bull**** and quit smoking whatever you are smoking mate . You are not even making making 285 dirhams per hour.. face it!

[Wizofoz]

Sheik,

He mentioned appointment pay so I assume he's in training, .

If you want to bitch, go ahead- just TRY and get you facts KIND of straight....

10th year basic is 47000 , not 36000- SLIGHT difference.

TRI, 7400

Housing 14 000

Flight pay, 5000 odd.

Total 73000- just a little more than 285/hr.

[alwayzinit]

Dropp

Thank you for reminding those with blinkers to take them off!:ok:

[Oblaaspop]

Indeed Dropp, the other thing that gets conveniently forgotten by those with blinkers on is that you would have to have been in that US major for 30 years before getting a sniff at a B777 left seat.

So no sooner has a pilot got to LHS Widebody having flown East Coast-West Coast Red Eyes in MD83's for quarter of a century, he has to start thinking about retirement! 7 years at $217/hr wouldn't even come close to the potential earnings of an EK Skipper who is 35 years old.........

And another thing, what happens to that US skippers' hourly rate when he is on leave, or breaks a leg and is off for 2 months? What's his basic salary?? Again, not even on the same graph as EK........... Beg to differ Sheiky or TOGA?? Thought not!

[harry the cod]

OK OK, so EK pilots may well get more but aren't we forgetting that those US major guys get friggin big pensions. Oh.........I forgot, most of them don't anymore thanks to chapter 11 bull**** and their CEO'S screwing them for a bigger mansion in the Hamptons. So much for those all powerful unions. Please knock another 1% off for wasted union subs. :(

Harry

[a747jb]

Not to be an advocate for the US airlines, but those 777 fo's or skippers are flying 2-3 trips per month, flying about 70-75 hours, and getting 18-20 days off. No offense, but I would gladly trade the pay (comparing 777/330 job to 777/330 job) to have my quality of life back. Both places have pros and cons, but I would say we work way harder than even your md-80 or 737 guys at a US major, so although we make more money, we deffinitely earn it. Just my 2 cents, and given that I my government has thrown the dollar square it the sh..house, those 2 cents are worth that much anymore :hmm:

[nolimitholdem]

The other point that gets glossed over is that to earn 10 year pay at EK you'd have to....live for at least ten years in Dubai! lol The financial comparisons are tiresome, basically if you can convince yourself that the ME mindset (slavery is ok, greed is good, etc) is your thing, then you're already more than halfway there. As pointed out, you sure as hell will earn whatever you make. If that's all your life means to you...pffft...take a look at most of the EK guys, been here 10 years, look like they've aged 30...

Just remember, if it was so great you wouldn't always have the same old names trotting out to defend it...it wouldn't require it...ask yourself why do they feel the need to justify their little patch of sandy paradise? This was a thread about potential EK payrises and suddenly all the predictable apologist posters are out in force? Funny how that always happens around the time of year when things like pay reviews and bonuses are being assessed! ;)

[Laker]

Oblaaspop

If a guy breaks his leg or goes on leave at a US Major he still gets paid. Generally you have a min monthly guarantee of about 65-75 hours. Multiply that by 217 and you get about 14,000USD for sitting at home. "Not even on the same graph?" Are you on a different payscale than the rest of us? The US skipper who is sitting at home with a broken leg is making 51,000AED and when he flies 95 hours he is making 75,657AED.

If you medical out for some reason then you get 65% of that until you turn 65. Lets not forget the 217/hour used to be more like 320/hour. EK is a good job but lets not kid ourselves. With regards to flying narrowbodies for a quarter century the SWA 737 Captain rate is about USD210/hour. Most SWA captains earn between 850,000AED-1,200,000AED/year.



In lieu of pensions most majors now contribute 15% of your salary into a 401k. Bankrupting the pensions was an outrageous act of greed but the paltry replacement is still higher than EK.

[maimax]

wiz,

do ek captains with 10 years seniority really get 47.000aed basic?

cause if so, i have bad news for them....

12 (!) years seniority will yield you about 43.500aed basic....it's magic.

[Oblaaspop]

Ok Laker I wasn't aware of the minimum pay, but don't forget that the $14k is before tax in the US

If you take the allowance, you can sit at home for months on end here with a broken back and TAKE HOME $14k......... So yeah, like I said, not on the same graph. BTW, did you note the bit about only being able to spend the last few years of your career earning that in the US?

Nolimit, you make a valid point about having to live in Dubai and you are correct most of us would rather live in the US, but as we all know the Aviation industry is f@cked over there (albeit not as badly f@cked as your mother land:}) and the chances of getting the same package as here just aint gonna happen.

So seeing as this is a thread about an EK payrise and by default the EK package, then I feel it is relevant to talk about it especially as the US thing was brought up by someone else (TOGA) saying how crap the EK package is compared to the US like for like which was simply not true! Not an EK apologiser at all (whatever that means!!), just stating facts......... Shame you feel unable/unwilling to do the same!

[alwayzinit]

Obs IMHO is correct to say the whole "package" is what we are talking about.

The Package as far as I am concerned includes many things that are intangibles.

i) I like being able to go out with my family into a big city knowing that the chance of being mugged is virtually zero.
ii) Likewise I am happy that the casual "social" drug use culture that pervades my homeland is not here.
iii) I like NOT paying income tax.
iv)I dont like the summer but I love the winter in DXB.(The reverse of my homeland)

Bottom line we all make our choices according to our perceptions, I do not consider myself an EK apologist, I do consider myself a pragmatist.

I do have one query though.

Why do the "Down with EK" brigade have to have everyone agree with them? Can't people make up their own minds and hold their own opinions?

Fly safe all.

[harry the cod]

Laker

Just a genuine question. Are you saying that some SWA guys are on $325K a year? That's over 200k sterling. Not even senior training BA guys would be pulling in that amount.

If so, that's a mighty impressive salary. Good for them if they are....lucky bastards!

Harry

[TangoUniform]

Ok Laker, let's get some facts straight. First off, top pay at SWA for a 12 yr capt is 210/hr. with a 78 hour guarantee. Or 16380 a month, 60278 dhs a month. Very nice. OBTW, most junior captain is at 10 years. Five year captain pay (not any at SWA) $194/hr. Still pretty nice. 15132/mo or 55685 dhs. Still nice. But wait, any captain that junior will be on reserve and guarantee is 70 hours I think. But wait again. In that tax bracket you will probably pay close to 50% in taxes considering Fed. taxes, state taxes (not if based in Texas or Fla), Medicare/SS taxes, property taxes, sales taxes and don't think it's going to get better if you make over 250K a year. Won't go there with that. Being an US expat you will stay pay taxes but you will get close to 100K in a tax break. No utility payments here, no mortgage payments here. Don't need to go on, but you're comparing apples and oranges.

Does the T/Cs need to be improved here. Oh hell yes, as they say in Texas. Whose making that 320/hr nowdays. Ohyeah, Delta was before their BK with their huge 777 fleet at the time....6. That didn't last too long.

Sick leave. Individual contracts, and don't know what SWA is, however most is only six months at what was called regular line guarantee and ususally it was 60 hours. Short term then long term disability. Honestly, I will take EKs long term policy. Loss of license....dare you compare any free LOL at any carrier compared to EKs.

So let's say, EK needs huge improvements to attract quality pilots. A real shortage coming up. But comparison is fruitless because of all the differences. My imputed pay here, because of the tax break falls just under what a 12+ year UAL or AA 767 captain makes, taking in just a 22% tax rate of what he receives.

But then again, we are in Dubai, Sandpit, Knotteatingham or whatever you want to call it. Major challenges but find me some 5 yr captain rates or what one would be on at the five year point and then make a comparison. Back into my hole.

[Wizofoz]

wiz,

do ek captains with 10 years seniority really get 47.000aed basic?

cause if so, i have bad news for them....

12 (!) years seniority will yield you about 43.500aed basic....it's magic.

Hi maimax,

I actually wrote you a thank-you for the correction late last night. I see it isn't here, perhaps I neglected to press send or something.

The figures for pay in the later years aren't posted anywhere (nor is there any reason they should be) that I'm aware of and I based my figures on some (obviously) dodgy math applying increments to the base.

Still, point was Sheiky is wildy inaccurate (not for the time).

Sittingly,

Yes, the fact that I got a figure wrong by about 9% does indeed make me a horrible, blatent, intentional lier who kills kittens and assasinated JFK.

The horrible result of my post was that I implied Sheikmyarse was out by about 110%, when in fact it's only about 96%.

Now, what kind of a "Blatent lier" does that make him?

Your post, however, shows you to be an unbalanced, unhinged, hysterical tosser.

Bite me.

[single chime]

Finally, we solved the JFK case!

[EGGW]

Good grief guys, please keep your hair on. Please keep the insults to yourself, otherwise you will take a break from Pprune. I wonder if you would talk to each other like this face to face, I think not.

YOU have been warned.

EGGW

[Laker]

TangoUniform

With all due respect you are responding with some wrong info. The 210/hour that you probably found on airlinepilotcentral.com is trip pay converted to hourly pay. SWA pays you per trip. If you game the system (drop trips, pick up trips, grab premium pay, etc) it is very easy to go well north of 100 credit hours per month. I have several friends at SWA and captains can exceed 300,000USD per year and those who really work the system make over 350k when you include profit share. Those numbers are 91,750AED per month and 107,041AED per month respectively.

The whole corporate culture at SWA is to fly your as# off and get paid accordingly. They build most trips to have very high credit so you fly a lot, make a lot, and get at least half the month off. So yes some make more than senior BA training captains. As do many Fedex and UPS captains.

You mentioned taxes. Who pays 50% tax in the states?? Dubai is tax free right? Yet a crap beer costs $10USD in Dubai, vs 3.50 in the states. Clothes, electronics, cars, food, housing, virtually everything in the USA is cheaper than dubai. Significantly so. Gas and labor are the only things I can think of that are cheap in Dubai. Dubai doubles or triples the price of everything and calls itself tax free. You are just putting money in the pockets of a few select families.

As for sick pay. Generally the way sick pay works is you build up a sick bank over time. So if you have 270 hours of sick time and you break your leg then you line credit is deducted from your sick bank. If I bid 90 hour lines then I am good for 3 months of full pay. Then when that is exhausted I kick into long term disability which is usually 60-65% of my guarantee or in some airlines "average line value."

[TangoUniform]

Laker, I'll bow to you being more knowledgable about SWA. A couple of points again, and you admit it. Those making 300k are "gaming" the system as you said. And they have all been there over 12 years if they are captains, and the junior captains are probably commuting to BWI. Again it's all apples and oranges. I would like to see some hard comparisons between Ek and legacy "Pax" carriers doing ULRs. Not a niche major such as SWA. And where was their pay at their 25 year anniversary? And because they are a niche player (and they are very successful) they are somewhat insolated to forgein competition and other variables. Let's see how it works out with the merger with AT.

Now 50% taxes. If you're making 300K you are in a 33% Fed. Tax bracket (Bush tax cuts), you will pay over 7% in FICA for a third of the year and if you live in a taxing state you can pay anywhere from around 3% to 10% state income tax. If you live a large metropolis, NY, SF, ATL, or others you may be paying another 1-2%. Check out what property tax is in some states (NJ,NY,Ma). Anywhere from 1-3% per 100K of the taxed value of one's house. And who decides what the tax value is? The state of course, those collecting the taxes. Other property tax on cars, boats, planes, any vehicle. Sales tax? Another, say, easily 5% on goods and services. Gasoline tax, 15% Fed tax on a gallon of gas. Of course then you will spend up to maybe another $1000 for a good accountant to avoid/mitigate all of the above. Now of course you will have numerous deductions, but you start losing them when you start making good money. Then there is the AMT (alternate minimum tax) so they get you if you deduct too much. Add that all up and brother, you ain't keeping close to 50% of your money. It's going to the gubment.:mad:

You mention things being expensive in Dubai. No kidding. Bought any groceries in the states lately with gas prices doubling in 2.5 years? How's the value of that house one bought in Vegas to avoid state income tax. But here you are only paying high prices for things bought. Sort of like the Fair Tax effort in the US. You pay for what you consume, not what you earn. Same here, it's just in the form of retail. You're going to pay the piper one way or another. I'd rather pay it in what I consume, and won't be in $10 beer (your choice). Better check the price of beer at a major hotel (like here) in LA, NY, SFO, MIA, DFW, ATL.

Sorry for doing a little thread hijacking gents. The only tax advantage we really get here is the close to 100K "free" money. And that does help bring the EK package somewhat closer....no cigar though. Laker, you haven't read anywhere that I have said the EK package is great. I'm saying most T/Cs in the US aren't that great either for legacy pax airlines...not like they used to be for sure.

[Alconguin Crusader]

If you look at widebody international pilots EK is underpaid. After all how many BA, AF. LH, AA and Qantas widebody pilots are beating down the doors to Emirates?
Then take into account how expensive it is in Dubai and we are really behind the 8 ball.
Most consumables cost twice what they are in the states and some things approach 4 times as much. This is quite surprising as Dubai is "tax-free" with slave labor.
It costs me three months salary to educate my kids. Yes that is right 1/4 of my paycheck goes to schools. That figure alone (25%) is more than the tax I was paying in the rust belt of the US. Then include how much it costs me to fly on my own airline, living in Dubai and most Americans are much better off staying in the US even with all of its problems. After all we can get a pretty cheap house now with a "garden" where you can actually have a catch with your kid and a BBQ where everyone is not on top of one another. Why would one want a garden when you can have a yard?

[Sonny Hammond]

What is the pay factor for career satisfaction?

We only talk about cash. What about the harder to measure things, like not being a career FO?

[Laker]

TU,

I don't mean to drag this out too long but here are a few counter points. It is quite easy to work the system at SWA and make good money. Or many other majors for that matter. Just an electronic trade board. As for being taxed back in the USA I still would argue that it is much cheaper to live there. Dubai doubles or triples the price of everything but it's tax free. I would much rather pay 5% tax on something that costs 50% less. That applies to just about anything you consume here or back in the states (food, cars, alcohol, electronics, property, etc). The only two things I can think of that are cheap in Dubai are unskilled labor and gas.

As for property taxes I don't think 1-3% is out of line. Again I would go back to value for the money. What does 300Kusd buy you in dubai? A villa on a lot the size of a postage stamp that might last 15 years before needing renovations. Not to mention the extremely high maintenance fees at most developments in Dubai. What about the 5% municipality tax in Dubai???? In Miami, Vegas, even parts of California 300K would buy you a beautiful property. Are you going to live in company accommodation until you turn 65? Then what? State income tax is a matter of whether you choose to live in a state that has it. It's quite easy to come up with large deductions via property, etc.

I'm not saying EK is bad. At the end of the day you probably do end up with more money in your pocket. It is a very viable career option (assuming nothing goes wrong). But there is a reason the vast majority of american pilots at EK are either from the regionals or furloughees from the majors. I would be very surprised to see somebody resign from SWA, DAL, Fedex, UPS, UAL, AA, etc to come work in the Middle East. That is until the package drastically improves here.

[TangoUniform]

Your last paragraph, I can completly agree on. But then again, most pilots here are here due to a "story" to tell, whether it be country or airline. I would never advise someone to leave a viable major/national legacy anywhere in the world to come and live the expat life, here or anywhere else. I've also done the crash pad at JFK and SFO. Hey that's a real load of laughs.

I would much rather NOT pay the tax. I would rather pay more for MY consumption of goods and services. It's all what one wants to do with one's money. I'll take 1000dhs/mo for unlimited golf at a fine course to what it costs in the US almost anywhere, except some rundown public course. If you consume alot, you will be on the wrong end of the stick here. You will be paying an "imputed" tax on goods and services. Oh and see what you can buy for 300K in most MAJOR cities (if one doesn't commute). Unless you want to drive hours away from any of those cities, 300K won't even buy you the postage stamp. What's 300K going to get you in downtown NY, or SFO. A grocery cart maybe. How far from the beach will you have to move to be able to afford a decent accommodation in a beach city...unless you want to live in Panama City or Myrtle Beach? I'll take my .5km drive to the beach from my four bedroom, fairly new, paid for, basic free utility, nice "garden", non weaponized neighborhood. But no NCAA, NFL, MLB, NHL live sports not at 0330. All in one's priorities.

Ok, for the sake of everyone else on these boards let's give this up. We are boring all our EURO and Pacific friends to death. They could care less of what our issues are back in the US other than the dollar devaluation is killing them.

Pay raise/profit share at EK? If it isn't decent, then they better hope that rise in fuel costs close down some airlines and pilots go looking. Becasue if the t/cs are not improved.........manning disaster. Just ask some guys in recruiting how their job is going these days. And it has been communicated upwards and ignored. We'll see in little over a week. Oh and if the US airlines start major recalls of furloughed guys, wonder how many here resigned from McDs and not their legacy airline? Dust in the wind.

So Laker, we agree and disagree. The bottom line, it's the industry as a whole that has been taken down. The joke is, we are respected as much as bus drivers these days, only bus drivers have a better pension.

[dubaigong]

I must say that I agree with Laker , all the pilots I have spoken with in Dubai are here just for a while because they have lost their jobs or are looking for some quick cash and some change...

Didn't meet yet one who was planning to have a career here.

I have even seen guys flying as captain here and deciding to go back home as first officer...

The only attraction here seems to be the chance of flying big jets if you were stuck in a low cost in Europe where you will be flying A320 or B737 for 40 years....with a poor salary compare to here.

[Brutus 5]

Emirates, the Arab world's largest airline, will spend about $10 billion a year to fund its fleet expansion over three years but is not under pressure to tap the bond market, a senior official said.

The Dubai government-owned carrier, which expects to receive about 30 aircraft a year for the next three, dropped plans for a bond to finance expansion after political unrest in the Middle East made rates more expensive.

"Emirates has roughly 30 aircraft a year coming the next five years and a lot of them are A380s ... we will need about $10 billion a year," Gary Chapman, president group services and Dnata at Emirates Group told Reuters.

Chapman said the company is sitting on considerable cash but will eventually tap debt markets to support an enormous capital expenditure program due to its expansion plans.

"Any airline taking 30 aircraft a year will have considerable financial requirements," said Chapman.

He said the company is not under pressure to look for funding and is waiting for the right pricing.

"With what's going on in the region in February, that's created some issues in terms of the margins. We'll wait until our results come out and reassess the situation."

Emirates unveils financial results for the second half of 2010 on May 10.

Emirates, the biggest customer for the Airbus A380 superjumbo, surprised its peers by boosting its orders to 90 planes last June and said they were looking at ordering more.

Chapman said the company, which repaid a $500 million bond in March, will look at dirham and dollar-denominated bonds.

"There is lot of liquidity out there today in dirhams ... banks are flushed with dirhams. We will continue to explore that and we are looking at dollar bonds."

Chapman, who is also the president Emirates Group's airline services arm, Dnata, said the unit is looking at acquisitions in Asia and the Gulf Arab region in the wake of its purchase of the flight catering unit of Italy's Autogrill SpA last year.