flight hours to UK PPL (just starting to learn)

[Bob fossil]

I know that you have to have 25 duel and 10 solo hours included in the mimimum 45 hours required to obtain a PPL.

However in a couple of months i am thinking of starting my flight training in the USA due to the lower cost and i will fly 20 duel instructor hours out there. These hours will follow the FAA sylabus in an F regestered aircraft. Will all 20 of those hours count towards my PPL if i get the remaining hours in the UK and sit the UK ppl written exams and fly solo over here.

So i just need to know if i can include all 20 of those hours towards UK PPL

[Plasmech]

With all due respect, and I say this in a nice tone: it does not matter what the minimums are for any pilot rating. You (and me and everyone else) will almost certainly go well over the minimum hour requirements. Now granted, you did ask a legitimate question, so I hope you get an actual numerical answer from someone. :)

[Bob fossil]

kool thanks for your help i had a feeling it would not count in the UK unless i did the whole 9 yards out there.

Basically I am a student in the UK doing an integrated engineering with pilot studies degree. We have to fly a minimum of 20 hours but most if us are keen to get our full PPLs.

The professor who handles the pilot studies part of the degree "offered" us this 20 hour flying package in michigan and said we should go if we are serious about flying and want our PPL's the idea being when we return to the UK we should be able to carry on in the UK from where we left off in michigan and obtain the remaining hours in the uk.

However including the cost of getting there plus visas and TSA fingerprints etc, the cost of exceeds the cost of 20 hrs in the UK by over a grand. But it does mean you can fly better aircraft ie glass cockpit.

So the question is it worth it? as in doing 20 hours in the states then coming bk to the UK? or staying in the uk and doing 30 hours for the same price and taking it from there.

Me and my fellow students priorities are to get our PPL's

and yes i know most dont pass in the minimum of 45, the instructor who did my interductory lesson said 60 is the av and one person only did it in 120! spose it depends how hard you try in the end.

[rans6andrew]

there is a rule of thumb that suggests that you will take approximately 1 hour per year of your age! This shouldn't be an issue unless you are a "mature" student.

If cost is an issue, perhaps you should look at microlighting. The lessons may work out cheaper, you only need 25 as a minimum and you might be surprised at what you can do with a shiney new NPPL(M) licence. Aircraft running costs are generally lower too.

Works for me,

Rans6...

[Plasmech]

120 hours? I think that much past 80 I would start to believe that I just wasn't cut out for flying and throw in the towel. Kudos to that student for sticking with it. Hey, it's still time logged in the air. Still counts.

[Bob fossil]

The pack is $4680 for 17 hrs in a glass cockpit 2009 cesna and 1.5 hrs in a seaplane and 1.5 hrs in an aerobatic plane, including accomidation not including flights to michigan visas, sevis fee and prints etc.

Its at the north west michigan college in traverse city.

in light of what you have said i am going to ring the UK CAA and check if those hours actually count or if they are as good as nothing toward a UK ppl

"All flight training goes towards both JAR-FCL and FAA Pilot Licenses"

to quote northwest michigan colleges website. so that wont count towards a UK CAA one then? so either i do my full american PPL out there and convert back here or its not worth going by the looks of it.

[Bob fossil]

cheers sol cal you have been very helpful so far.

and yes the whole point of this trip is just to accumulate those 20 hours and it takes place over 2 weeks. though 2 people in our university class are staying out longer to finish there PPL

i am trying to find where i found f registered now iam sure i saw it somewhere on there website.

Yes i am a little confused that why i am on here. cos the prof says they count yet a uk instructor says they don't so i am going to ring the CAA and double check that and know once and for all. I am new to all this so iam not a full expert on airlaw.

Still $280 an hr. yes that does include an instructor cos its part of the package. no fuel increases have been announced yet.

still $6000 in florida!! thats not bad in comparison i didnt know about that. if $280 an hr with an instructor isnt the going rate in the usa what is? have a feeling your gona say its a lot less

[XLC]

Hi Mr. Fossil, there are several things not right in your original post, other than the spelling mistakes.
To answer you main question about the 20H: no, these FAA hours will not count for 20h towards your JAA PPL, only a small part of it if it is a formal training. You will have the experience though.

It seems you have been quite misinformed, either not much research has been done prior to posting. I also doubt you will fly in the US in the F-reg plane, let alone receiving official instruction in a foreign reg. bird.

[A and C]

The first thing to dis-regard is the "glass cockpit" thing, it is just a sales ploy to extract more money from you. At this stage of your flying you need only an aircraft with a basic avionic fit......... the more basic the better.

At the end of your training in the USA if you do the FAA PPL you will come back to the UK unable to fly solo untill you have had some more instructional flying due to the different way that airspace is managed, the very different weather conditions and the very different visual navigation picture.

When you add up the whole expense picture of hotels, airline travel, meals Etc at the end of the day you will save no money by going to the USA provided you select a good UK flying club.

That club will have a simple price structure (NOT all sorts of "gold" & "silver" price programs)

That club will not be the cheapest or the most expensive in the area.

That club will quote you the rate for the WHOLE HOURS FLYING they WILL NOT hide behind extra charges for instructor briefings or add fuel charges.

And that is all before you have weather troubles in the USA and find that the small print in the contract permits no refund if you don't get your flying all done in the time frame you have booked.

The USA is a great place to fly but for the european tyro pilot the pitfalls out weigh the advantages if you are seeking a European PPL.

[stevelup]

$280 per hour is so far out of the ball park that you shouldn't even be considering it.

You should be able to fly dual in the US for half that.

Admittedly, you've got your 1.5 hours of aeros and 1.5 floatplane stuff in there which will be skewing the overall hourly rate.

I don't think it's a good deal.

[BackPacker]

I agree with what most have been said. It doesn't look like a good deal.

A few points though:

"All flight training goes towards both JAR-FCL and FAA Pilot Licenses"

This is only true if the flight school is a CAA registered facility or otherwise certified flight school. Check out a document called "LASORS" which is a book written by the CAA that essentially summarizes everything that the ANO, JAR-FCL and a few other documents have to say about flight crew licensing. (It's not the authoritative document but it's a far better read.) In LASORS section C1.2, you can find the following:

In circumstances where previous flying training
towards an ICAO PPL(A) (non-JAR-FCL) has been
conducted but no licence has been issued, PLD will
consider the crediting of such flight time towards the
issue of a JAR-FCL PPL(A). In all cases, applicants
must apply in writing to PLD enclosing appropriate
training records and flying logbooks for the PPL
training received. PLD will review the training
records to establish a course of training and advise
the applicant accordingly.
In addition to any additional training required (where
there is a shortfall of requirements), applicants
will be required to complete one cross-country
flight of at least 270km (150nm), during which full
stop landings at two different aerodromes from
the aerodrome of departure shall be made, pass
all the JAR-FCL PPL(A) theoretical knowledge
examinations and pass the PPL(A) skill test.

So the training credit is not automatic but if you write to the CAA you might be lucky. No guarantees though.

At the end of your training in the USA if you do the FAA PPL you will come back to the UK unable to fly solo untill you have had some more instructional flying due to the different way that airspace is managed, the very different weather conditions and the very different visual navigation picture.

To clarify this a bit further: The UK does an *implicit* validation of your FAA PPL for flight on a G-reg aircraft - and this validation works world-wide (ANO article 62). So you don't have to convert to, or otherwise obtain a JAR-FCL compliant, UK-issued PPL. However, there will be very few schools/clubs willing to rent you an aircraft on just your fresh and shiny new FAA PPL. They'll insist on a proper checkout which will include the items listed above. But the exact same thing will happen if you arrive with a shiny new fresh JAR-FCL PPL obtained in the US.

The first thing to dis-regard is the "glass cockpit" thing, it is just a sales ploy to extract more money from you. At this stage of your flying you need only an aircraft with a basic avionic fit......... the more basic the better.

Fully agree. Look out the window, not at the magenta line.

The USA is a great place to fly but for the european tyro pilot the pitfalls out weigh the advantages if you are seeking a European PPL.

I don't agree with this. I did my JAR-FCL PPL in Florida and it was substantially cheaper and faster than doing it here in Holland, all things considered. But if you do something like this, it only makes sense if you go all the way. Just doing 20 hours overseas with no guarantees that you can use any of these as credit towards a JAR-FCL PPL doesn't make sense. Except, of course, as part of a larger study in Aeronautic Engineering or something, where the objective is not to gain a pilots license, but to gain an appreciation for what an aircraft is and what it is capable of.

i know most dont pass in the minimum of 45, the instructor who did my interductory lesson said 60 is the av

Well, yes, the average might be 60 but you've got to consider that a lot of people will only gain their PPL once they're older and financially settled (but less quick in learning new things), and do it part-time over the course of a year or so.

If you're young and bright (typical university student), you already have a lot of aviation knowledge through your studies, and you do an intensive course with very little chance to "forget" between lessons, you may well find yourself ready for the test in less than 45 hours, and having to do a bit of "hour building" to get to the 45.

[Mictheslik]

I assume that I know you? (I'm on the same course, and had the same presentation)

When I first heard about that michigan place it seemed a little steep. Certainly a nice place to fly, but you're paying for that and the stupid glass cockpits.

My advice....stick it out with the LFS tommies....flying's expensive, that's a fact no matter where you fly, so you might as well get it done close to home and somewhere where you know it'll count :) (and you save the air fare over to America!)

How are you doing up to the 20? I'm currently on 15...praying for good weather for the next few weeks :D

.mic

[A and C]

Quote:-I don't agree with this. I did my JAR-FCL PPL in Florida and it was substantially cheaper and faster than doing it here in Holland, all things considered. But if you do something like this, it only makes sense if you go all the way. Just doing 20 hours overseas with no guarantees that you can use any of these as credit towards a JAR-FCL PPL doesn't make sense. Except, of course, as part of a larger study in Aeronautic Engineering or something, where the objective is not to gain a pilots license, but to gain an appreciation for what an aircraft is and what it is capable of.

The USA vs Europe debate will go on as log as there is flying, I agree with you that the USA route should be cheaper and for the fortunate ones (like you) it is, unfortunatly for each person like your self there are 2-3 unfortunate people who fail to get a PPL in the USA, usualy they run out of time due to weather and aircraft unservisablity issues.
This is OK if you have chosen wisely and a refund on unused flying is avalble, however you can without too much trouble find posts on this forum about companies who just hold on to your money and it is very hard to get it back from this side of the Atlantic.

I had a great time flying in the USA getting my FAA CPL/IR & Multi but I was in the USA on business and had lots of time, I was not there for four weeks and on a tight time scale. I was also able to visit the companies offering trainning and get a feel for them as well as ask the locals for their opinions, not take a chance on an advert in the flying press.

[Bob fossil]

Thanks for your help everybody! i have a better picture now and its also made me do a little reading on airlaw, which is an exam i need to pass anyway so an early start is always good.

This professor has been a selling if not almost being forceful about this michigan thing, saying you will do it if your serious about getting ur PPL. So i needed to clarify a few things because it did seem odd and i was leaning to not going ahead with it. Now i defo wont be.

Once again cheers for your help everybody.

[Bob fossil]

Mictheslik i sent u a msg but it was the by e mail option so check ur inbox