Safety Briefing. Why Bother?

[Flintstone]

Just returned from a trip (as a passenger) UK/Europe/US/Europe/UK.

One of the things that struck me was the variation in the standard of the briefings given to passengers the worst of which was a manky video akin to the restaurant type ads shown in cinemas.

One thing that didn't vary much was the arrogance/ignorance of most of the passengers who completely ignored the briefing. This behaviour was all but condoned on one or two airlines when the cabin staff ignored hand baggage left in dangerous places and eejits who thought that the bit about remaining in their seats until the aircraft was stationary did not apply to them ('Please brake hard. Please, please, please').

Best of the bunch? GO flight 302, Lisbon-London, 23/3/01. The cabin crew made the rounds post briefing and insisted (politely but firmly) that everything was put away. "No, I'm sorry sir but you can't hold your umbrella all the way to London". If my cabin crew were only half as vigilant I'd be happy.

[Capt Claret]

Flintstone,

I'm pleased to say that I crew with similarly vigilant cabin crew everytime I go flying.

As you point out, there are too many eejuts out there in pax land.

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bottums up !

[Avman]

I too can get hacked off with the eejuts. But, in all honesty, I think that many of them just don't fly enough to comprehend the dangers. Take the standing up prior to stopping. Don't we all do it on busses, trains etc? Just as dangerous. I guess they just do it by habit. As for taking notice of the safety briefing, if you are a regular, just how many times a week can you sit through it when flying on the same type with the same company? I do my own safety briefing which includes a quick refresher on how to open the exits, I count the number of seat rows from where I'm sitting to the overwing exits, and I check that there IS a life vest under my seat. For the rest yes I am guilty of not watching the video on how to fasten and unfasten my seat belt and how to put a mask over my nose and mouth. I think that I've figured that out by now.

Oh, and when you're flying over the atlantic don't you smile at the thought of firstly surviving a ditching in rough seas in a heavy airliner, managing to get your life vest on and jumping into the atlantic ocean on a nice cold winter's day. Just how long would you last?

[Jetdriver]

Flintstone,

I agree there is a lot of variation in the quality of safety briefings, some of them certainly make you cringe. I suppose the one thing that all of them achieve to a greater or lesser extent, is they satisfy the statutory requirement to brief passengers on the use of exits and standard safety equipment. The airline cannot be accused of negligence in this respect if it has provided the required information. The passenger cannot be made to watch or read the information, but that is their choice. It is probably stupid, but still their choice.

Avman,

I agree that as you fly a lot you are already familiar with much if not all of the safety briefing. You are very wise to familiarize yourself with the exit positions as you do. I do not agree with your statement concerning "ditching in the Atlantic". The example is of course supremely unlikely but not impossible. I am sure that if ever such an unfortunate event was to occur the crew would summon every once of their experience, expertise, luck and faith to make sure that as many people as possible DID survive such an event. Incidentally the requirement would be that in the first instance you did not "jump into the Atlantic" but evacuated on to a raft or slide raft. The crew would also ensure that in the event you were in the water, you were pulled into a raft as soon as possible. Perhaps you should not smile so much, but re-read the safety card and consider your survival options rather than assume your demise. Believe it or not "faith" is one of the many aids to survival.

[Starting 4]

Jetdriver,

How do you propose the flight attendants warm the sea temperature so that if someone does go in they don't get hypothermia and die. Which in the North Atlantic in winter takes oh about 3-4 minutes?

[Avman]

Jet Driver,

I don't confuse faith with reality. In any case if we are going to make an ever-so-nice by-the-book ditching I reckon I should have time enough for some quick revision. I would love to see a test ditching of a B747 even in calm sea conditions. Why don't the FAA do this in the same fashion they crashed a B720 (or B707) piloted from the ground? It would provide some interesting data. They're probably too worried that the outcome would prove that it's unsurvivable.

[Jetdriver]

Starting 4,

The North Atlantic isn't the only body of water planes fly over. Winter isn't the only season. Oh and 3 to 4 minutes is still 3 to 4 minutes ! I couldn't find anything in the liferaft manual that says "leave pax bobbing about until they freeze to death" ! I beleive that every effort would be made and given the hypothesis who can tell what the result would be.

Avman,

Given the extreme stress likely to be encountered in an emergency that is not really the best time to undertake some "quick revision". If the ditching was a result of an explosive decompression the study material might not be where you left it !

There have been many examples of ditchings that were survivable. That doesn't mean everybody survived, but your chances are far better if you take the attitude that you will rather than making all the excuses why you won't. At the end of the day it might not make any difference, but a little faith really can't hurt. There are plenty of survivors that would testify to that ...eh reality !

Oh yes and one other thing the majority of ditching accidents tend to occur very near land. For example aircraft overrunning runways and ending up in the sea or rivers. For example: Air Florida (90) Boeing 737 that crashed shortly after take off from Washington National airport and ended up in the Potomac river which was frozen ( probably colder than the North Atlantic in Winter). World Airways DC10 that overran a runway at Boston Logan Airport and ended up in the harbour. Ethiopean Airways Boeing 767 that was forced to ditch into the Indian Ocean near the Comores Islands. All these accidents involved fatalities and in each case there were survivors. I am sure there are catalogues of such incidents but I havent time to do an in depth ( no pun intended) study.

Luck plays a big part in the survivability chances, but the odds can probably be improved by a degree of knowledge. There again if you want to give up and resign yourself to the worst why should I care ?


(Edited for spelling)

[This message has been edited by Jetdriver (edited 25 March 2001).]

[JP Justice]

The short answer to the question is that if you fail to do the briefing, and something does happen, the lawyers will have you for breakfast.

It's as simple as that, and that is the world we live in.

[Avman]

Jetdriver,

Didn't I say that I check to see if I have got a life vest under my seat? The fact is that I DO prepare for an eventual emergency. I refered only to the atlantic and winter. Your points are valid with the examples you provide. However, the World overrun was not a ditching. The Air Florida was not a ditching. The B767 was a good example of the results of an airliner ditching. It broke up on impact leaving the survivors floating about in what was a smooth and warm ocean. Additionally they were lucky to have locals quickly at the scene with boats. I don't disagree with your views but you moved away from the particular point I was making. Believe me I'm not complacent. I intend to survive but I will still smile at the thought of me bobbing up and down in my life vest in the middle of the atlantic on a winter's day :)

[Stroppalot]

Avman

As a frequent flyer, should you not set an example to others by displaying attention to the briefing?

Like as has already been said, most of the joe-public don't realise the dangers, however, it's no good you knowing the safety drill back-to-front, when you've got a 15-stone body crushing you from behind, because they didn't fasten their seat-belt.

I know this is what many professional air crew do when flying as pax. After all, people learn by example.

Personally, if I am pax on an aircraft, and I see one of the regulations being ignored (i.e. someone not wearing lap-belt, or objects in the aisle), I make it my business and ask them (politely, of course) to do whatever it is they should be doing. After all, it's my safety that is being compromised.

If they ignore it (though it has never happened, but if they did), ding-dong I call the F/As and ask them to do their job and enforce the reg.

That's my view.

[Avman]

Well I'm certainly not going to start checking behind me to see if they've all fastened their seat belts. That's the FAs' job. Yes, like you, I ensure that pax next to me are not impeding my escape route with their assortment of bags - something which surprisingly enough is often missed or ignored by cabin crews (of non UK companies) and which I have drawn their attention to. Even happened a number of times in the U.S. of all places which surprised me. I don't see that it's my job to mother the rest of the pax on board. The airline rightly provides them with a safety briefing. If they choose to ignore it and fail to prepare themselves for the eventuality of an emergency, that's their problem. No, it won't be mine. I've made my escape plan and I'll walk over them if I have to!

Incidentally, since this subject was last aired I have been observing deadheading and off-duty crews' attitude to setting an example during safety briefings. It's very poor. 80% pay no attention at all! Those of you that do will be quick to jump on my back. Please, I'm not refering to you, I'm refering to the 80% that don't!

Finally, my wife is an ex F/A and she always pays full attention to the safety briefings, as do I when I'm sitting next to her so as not to incur her wrath :)

[Stroppalot]

Just out of interest (and this isn't a dig at you, Avman), I was wondering what force a 15-stone man sitting behind you might exert on your seat back-rest, if the aircraft was to decelerate through impact.

The G-OBME British Midland crash nr Kegworth in 1989 (reported at http://www.open.gov.uk/aaib/gobme/gobmerep.htm#Flight ) suffered longitudinal deceleration somewhere in the region of 26g. This was determined in a post crash analysis / simulation http://www.open.gov.uk/aaib/gobme/ka3f22b.jpg

Now, our 15 stone gent who didn't bother to strap in is going to be pounding your seat back with well over 2 tonnes of force.

Now I'd say that'd be YOUR problem as well as his!

Of course, I'm not suggesting you should go back and check everyone is belted in - of course not, but at least a casual glance either side, and perhaps behind you might help to improve your chances...

Also one of the things that really baffles me with airline safety is the location of the overhead lockers. If you think about it, it's the worst place they could have put hand luggage.

* Firstly, think about the high weight of cabin baggage. In an impact, the lockers are unable to hold up to the forces (again, deceleration forces), this leaves a bag weighing several kilos, but moving at god knows what speed, flying into the back of some unfortunate pax's head.

* Secondly, a high proportion of cabin baggage contains duty free spirits. Now, I might not be Albert Einstein, but even I know that heat rises. Thus, in a cabin fire, the hottest part of the cabin is going to be in the area of the overhead lockers. Put high heat and a fuel (spirits) together, and you're going to get flash fires/explosions. (triangle of fire, etc).

Just my thoughts...

[Flintstone]

....which is why all we right thinking people prefer to travel right up front away from the unrestrained missiles, right? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

On the trip I mentioned I saw a woman try to hide her carry-on suitcase (starring Sid James, Hatti Jaques....sorry) in front of her seat. Needless to say it was too big and the fact that she had her knees up around her ears gave the game away. Didn't hand it over without a fight though.

Another passenger cut up rough because she didn't want her heavy glass vase in the overhead locker (as.... "It is likely to get smashed") but insisted on holding it! Makes you wonder if these people have any sense of self preservation.

[SilentHandover]

Stroppalot, Just a minor point, 'even i know that heat rise', not correct i'm afraid it's the heated fluid i.e. the air that rises. The 'heat' is not a physical thing therefore it cannot 'rise'.

[Stroppalot]

Oh right. That changes my entire point then. Thanks.!!

[SomewhereOverHere]

Avman, your comment about the eejuts standing up while taxiing. I travel a lot around Eastern Europe and the CIS, and I see that on every flight. On one flight recently the plane was still rolling down the runway when some cretins were getting up and pulling their handbaggage out of the lockers.... to be first onto the bus, so they would then be last OFF the bus at the terminal !?!?
The cabin crews on CIS airlines generally don't bother to try to stop them. Some don't really set an example, on one flight we were several seconds into the take off run when a steward scuttled out of the galley, jumped into a Business seat, crossed himself, then fastened his seatbelt as the plane rotated!

I don't know, maybe it's a "phew, we landed safely, no more worries" attitude?

But there are so many times when I have sat there thinking, "come on, break hard, stop suddently, Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese"!!!!

Oh, and to keep on topic, I always put my paper down and watch the safety demo (when there is one) and make sure the Mrs does as well! Set an example. And when we are the only people watching, the crew member occasionaly even smiles a thank you!

[Speedbird48]

I just watched a Flight Attendant on BA 216, LHR-IAD tell two loud mouthed British Army Officers to be quiet and pay attention as he did his safety demo. It was last Tuesday 27th, upstairs in Club.
He did a good job but why does Britain export the dreaded "Wooperts" around the world? They finally shut their continual braying when another pax told them to Shut the F*** Up.
The F/A did a first class job of his demo and making the idiots pay attention.