Legal Question - Flying From Private Property?

[Sunfish]

Lets assume that Sunfish has just found Ten acres to build his "dream home" on in rural Victoria.

It's a level bush block with a nice flat area for an airstrip with no obstacles to speak of and no houses directly under the approach paths.

It's about 500m from the centre of a small town, but the nearest houses are around 350 metres away.

Assuming I bought it, and proceeded to safely fly in and out for private use only, is there any legal way for the inevitable complainer to stop me?

[Shrike135]

Yes, it needs to be zoned other than residential or rural to be sure of not getting successful challenges.

[Sunfish]

Zoned "Rural living" - and the schedule of activities says nothing about prohibiting aviation. Noise might be an issue.

[Shrike135]

Not a prayer.
At 500 metres you would get group objections from the town.
500 metres would be well inside a suitable noise buffer zone
You would lose quite a large sector on takeoff because you can't make safe height over the town.
But the killer punch is the Rural Living Zoning
Rural Living is where the town's lawyers and doctors build their McMansions, and they've got money to fight noisy hobbies
You have to go out past that fringe - maybe 10 mins or so out, then talk to all neighbours within a km or so radius. If they all agree, there's a good chance.

[Sunfish]

About 66db - Rotax. Easily meets European standards.

The area is a holiday/retirement area.

Exactly what powers does the Victorian Government have over private aviation?

Lindsay Fox parks his helicopter at his house in Portsea - zoned high conservation residential. What's to stop me doing something similar?

[mcgrath50]

Speak to the local council? Each one would be different anyway, as no one seems to be able to standardise anything these days.

From a CASA point of you, you just have to follow the CAAP (or something just as good that would stand up in court) for ALAs, although I'm sure you'd know that sunfish.

You would lose quite a large sector on takeoff because you can't make safe height over the town.

I may not have understood this point but, you don't need to be at 1,000ft over the town if you are on Takeoff and/or Landing. You might though piss off the neighbours constantly doing that (ie; it may be friendlier to accept a downwind and go the other way if your plane allows)

[thunderbird five]

Old topic, already solved..... yawn....

Search VCAT: UPSON VS CORANGAMITE 2005.

Get mowing.

[apache]

Sunfish....
A couple of things you may not have considered:
1/there is NO SUCH THING as a "dream house" in Victoria.... it just isn't possible
Lindsay Fox parks his helicopter at his house in Portsea - zoned high conservation residential. What's to stop me doing something similar?
2/Lindsay Fox has a lot more money to pay off councils, than I presume, you do.

good luck though

[VH-XXX]

I know of several strips that have been shut down through council action due to complaints from neighbours regardless of zoning. Whilst it's legal to fly below 500ft on approach and takeoff, people still don't like low aircraft over their homes. Worst case is when other aircraft visit your place and the neighbours get jealous of you and your mates enjoying themselves, watch the fun begin. Most often strips get restrictions for a sole aircraft onle, ie. The owner.

On the flip side I know of strips operating privately for many years without issue. One that comes to mind is right in the heart of Stratford - google it. Another one is interesting, he used to get complaints from most neighbors from his 912 Skyfox (very quiet aircraft), some years later, all his neighbours (3 of them) have aircraft now (at strips elsewhere) and the horse stud that used to complain the most, now operates their own R44!

On the face of it, your proposed site does seem a little close to suburbia to be assured of 100% success.

Isn't there a rule somewhere about being 500 meters from persons not involved in aviation or is that just an RA-Aus rule?

[Old Akro]

As I understand it, the legal case is easy. The same law that underpins our right to garage a car at home applies to aircraft. Its a legal precedent that dates to the horse & buggy era. The problem is that there has never been a proper challenge, so instead there is the crazy dance between councils trying to apply made up local regulations and aircraft / helicopter owners wanting to avoid legal costs and being ostracised by neighbors.

Lindsay Fox overcame his difficulty using the pre-existing use clause. When a friend had similar problems he engaged the same lawyers to run the same argument and you've never seen a council back down faster.

[Woodwork]

Tipping my hat to the differences in Vic and NSW aviation regulation, the council is certainly not in a position to tell you how to operate an aircraft. They are, however, in a strong position to tell you how you can utilise your land, particularly where it affects neighbouring property owners.

Have a look at this private strip in suburban Newcastle, which applied for permission to build a hangar:
http://www.newcastle.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/70701/DAC_Report_Item_29.pdf

That application was approved, but the (potential) killer in it is this little aside:
The objectors' concerns include: .... potential loss of property values; health and amenity impacts on neighbouring residents; ....

[LeadSled]

Sunfish,

Surprisingly, one answer would be to move to NSW.

We have some quite interesting laws defining "quiet enjoyment" of your property, and then the local nimbys and their representative on the local council cannot kybosh "reasonable" movements rates on your private property.

As I recall, "reasonable" is about 10-20 movements per week.

Of course, there are limits to how close to "town" you can be, but in an acreage lifestyle area, not too much of a problem. I love the fine print, whena it comes to a "hangar", its a nono, but a building application for a "machinery shed" will whistle through.

Tootle pip!!

[FourBalls]

66dB you say?

You could whipper-snip and chop firewood all day and produce around 115dB (at the source) but no-one would give 2 sh!ts.

But an aeroplane :=:=. That's different.

Tall poppy wankers.

[PinkusDickus]

Sunfish,

There was a very similar discussion on this topic here (including some input from yourself):

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/309448-council-approval-pvt-airstrips.html

:ok:

[Sunfish]

Thank you all for your advice and the links to relevant cases.

Mcgrath:

From a CASA point of you, you just have to follow the CAAP (or something just as good that would stand up in court) for ALAs, although I'm sure you'd know that sunfish.

My understanding is that CASA makes "recommendations" for ALA's. They are not written in stone and CASA does not "Approve" ALA's.

Just God help you if you run into something that shouldn't have been there according to CASA's recommendations, because then the area wasn't satisfactory according to AC 091 - 225.

http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/parts/091/download/ac091-225.pdf

[mcgrath50]

Sorry Sunfish that's what I meant, obviously you don't have to follow CAAPS, but god help the man who doesn't and has to get up in court and justify himself!

[poteroo]

Sunfish, a couple practical aspects include:

1. ensure that there are no proposed urban or hobby farm developments near your dream block - which will then scream 'loss-of-amenity' even though you were there 1st

2. check with the electricity providor re any new proposed spur lines, and give them a detailed map of your block & strip regardless.

3. check with your proposed new neighbours re the planting of trees & hedges. Your 'adequate' length strip could soon have obstacles dead inline with your runway direction, and there's nothing you can do about it....except perhaps go STOL or rotary wing!

4. try for a reasonably level block which will give you flexibility in deciding operating direction and also whether L or R circuit is more friendly. Avoid situations where you have to make a straight in to avoid overflying noise sensitive locations - you'll remember, but your mates probably won't.

happy days,

[Sunfish]

Thank you for your comments Poteroo.

By the way I found a denizen of this particular area and asked him if there were likely to be problems with tree huggers, etc. The response

"Nah! No one cares. A bloke already has his own strip and aircraft and another has his own helicopter on his block."

[Jabawocky]

So how are you going to sail your new yacht into the airstrip? :}

[12-47]

Nothing beats being able to fly out of the backyard.

Is it really only 10 Acres? What are the dimensions? Either you don't need much runway or it's a long and narrow block.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

10 acres is roughly 40,000 sq meters, so 50 x 800 meters or 67 x 600 meters!

I would put the FTDK onto either, assuming the approaches are OK!

Dr :8

[John Eacott]

Sunfish,

Land use is the all important criteria, as already mentioned. Victoria being the nanny state that it is has too many roadblocks to Enjoying Yourself, it's just not allowed these days!

I have 'grandfather' rights to helicopter operations in my property, and was also the only industry support that Lindsay Fox received during his appeal to the Mornington Shire's decision to stop him using his pre-existing landing area. The objectors tried to argue that his pilot and I hadn't landed there when we claimed as they hadn't seen us do so: the Judge was quick to put them back in their box, and found in Fox's favour. To the chagrin of Mrs Ballieu and company....

Interestingly, one item that objectors inevitably try to use and is always rejected by VCAT is the property values argument. What will always carry a lot of weight, though, is the 'loss of, or perceived loss of amenities' case. Essentially noise, traffic, etc come into that argument and it is a very powerful one when used in VCAT. So make sure that no-one will be able to use it :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Who needs ten acres? Ultralights will love this one!

he5-LPpfZn8

[Sunfish]

Thank you all for your replies and advice especially Mr. Eacott.

Regarding VCAT and land use, perceived loss of amenity, etc, I would imagine that if I can prove that the aircraft noise footprint meets Australian standards ANEF 20 contour, is quieter than a chain saw, etc., etc. then case closed.

I think I can easily achieve this using a Rotax 912 which meets European noise standards.


Jaba, your video has a distinct relationship to what I had in mind, but with a little more tree clearance.

As for the boat, ever heard of Raymond Island?

[Jabawocky]

but with a little more tree clearance

Achieving that is more of a concern these days, councils and greenie neighbours don't seem to mind your chainsaw noise so long as you are not cutting down a tree to improve your safety :ugh:

But there are ways....:E

[Shrike135]

Think about it. You've got friend over for a BBQ and you hear a sound equal to a chainsaw overhead as the neighbour does circuits and takes his mates up all day. Previously all you would hear were the native birds. That's loss of amenity, and that would be a key issue at VCAT.

Since you mention Raymond Island, the bigger picture of the present Raymond Island environment, and how that may be altered would be an even bigger issue.

[Sunfish]

Shrike, I checked with a local and Raymond Island is already inhabited by a helicopter and an aircraft on its own strip, as well as the birds and Koalas.

The question is what is "reasonable", a previous poster has stated that "reasonable" is 10 to 20 movements a day in NSW. My definition would be about 4 to 6. As for circuits and low flying, I agree, either invite the neighbours for a joy ride or don't do it.

The other issue is that "loss of amenity" cuts both ways. A little Rotax noise for a few minutes weighs up pretty well to avoiding a Five hour drive from Melbourne.

[Shrike135]

Well take them on then. Do you feel lucky Sunfish?

[Sunfish]

Nobody to take on...yet. Might just buy the land and stick a caravan on it. Build a house after neighbours neutralised or pacified. If not, move elsewhere.

[goin'flyin]

A private strip which i operate to for the owner of our aircraft (in NSW), had to be DA approved by council before we could prepare the land for use. It's located well away from suburbia which was a help. There was an objection from 1 neighbour, and 1 tree hugger/bird watcher group. Climb performance data satisfied the tree hugger/bird watcher group, and the only way we could keep the neighbour happy was with a restriction of daylight ops only, for our aircraft only, and a maximum of 500 movements per year.

I don't know who is counting how many movements we make per year, i'm certainly not counting :E

[Shrike135]

I think Sunfish just likes to have fun with us

[VH-XXX]

Fun or not, he's on the money.

Retirement plans encompassing a house on 10 acres on Raymond Island (Paynesville), a 40 ft yacht at your own private jetty or a jetty nearby and a private airstrip at your back door for flying out to visit your grandchildren. Doesn't get much better than that.

The only problem is the stupid ferry that you have to use every time you want to go shopping or to civilisation and for 6 months of the year there it's like Alaska - cold and crap.

[John Eacott]

Shrike, I checked with a local and Raymond Island is already inhabited by a helicopter and an aircraft on its own strip, as well as the birds and Koalas.

The question is what is "reasonable", a previous poster has stated that "reasonable" is 10 to 20 movements a day in NSW. My definition would be about 4 to 6. As for circuits and low flying, I agree, either invite the neighbours for a joy ride or don't do it.

The other issue is that "loss of amenity" cuts both ways. A little Rotax noise for a few minutes weighs up pretty well to avoiding a Five hour drive from Melbourne.

Just further east towards LE is Fraser Island with a strip already there: I landed there some years ago when it first went up for sale, desirable residence with lots of potential ;)

IIRC, Victoria considers <2 movements a week to be reasonable, so be prepared for a bun fight if you want > 2 a day! Loss of amenities is the argument for the objectors and will not factor into any argument put up by the proponent to the contrary, ie saving a 5 hour drive. Your improvement in life is not an argument to detract from your neighbours perceived loss of amenity in the eyes of VCAT.

Unfortunately taking the neighbours for a ride is a chicken and egg situation, as you shouldn't be operating to give them the flight(s) until you have planning permission for which you need them not to object!!

[Jack Ranga]

As for the boat, ever heard of Raymond Island?

Better buy a float plane, it'll be under water in 20 or so years. This will satisfy your boat/plane conundrum?

[nomorecatering]

It seems that we now have in this country a culture of selfishness. I live in a small town in country Vic, where a new Hungry Jacks store is being planned, however there is fierce opposition from only 2 locals. The fact that they love 1km away from the proposed site does not matter to them. when asked why they are opposing the Hungry jacks they answered " we don't approve of that sort of food", when asked about the need for jobs for young people in the town their response was "we are not concerned about jobs". So there we have it, if you don't want something, just because you don't like it, you can object.

That strip in Newcastle is interesting, the report made me sick. Amenity of views, have a look at the area on google earth, the "wetlands' are a ghastly wasteland, strewen with rubbish and debris. additionally, there are large industrial warehouses nearby and......high tension powerlines. These people make me sick. You cant see the runway, or the hangars from the back yards of the houses.

[Aussie Bob]

Just do it and see what happens. The worst thing you can do is ask, even on a pilots forum.

I set up my own strip. A neighbor clearly stated (to me) that is should have been "advertised" as a development by the council. I told him no permission was required. 5 years later there have been no complaints that I know of.

[uncle8]

Sunfish,
I have spoken to you before about my private strip north of Melbourne.
In a previous life I was involved in the management of a private aerodrome and accumulated some knowledge about airfield requirements from the local council, CASA and Pprune!
I believed someone who told me that no one can stop you landing your own private plane on your own private property -there is a distinction here between an airfield for yourself only (or maybe the odd visitor) and an aerodrome open to anyone. The aerodrome requires council approval which, in my area, can take two years. So I mowed and smoothed an area on my farm, bought an appropriate aircraft and landed it there. Didn't ask anyone - just did it.
Turns out that one of my neighbours, who I had seen watching me prepare the strip, reported me to the police who arrived two hours after my landing. They told me that there had been a complaint and they were checking to see if I had broken the law. I told them that I hadn't and that they could check with CASA.
CASA told the police that there is something in the constitution which allows me to do what I did. The police told that to the whinging neighbour who then complained to CASA directly and also to the council. CASA sent me a nice email telling me about the complaint and that they would be taking no action unless I was doing something dangerous. The council enforcement department sent two heavies who accused me of excavating without a planning permit. I asked them if you needed a permit to plough - they declined to answer and left.
My strip is a long way off complying with the CAAP but my aircraft is specifically designed to operate from a strip like mine and I only fly once or twice per fortnight.
The police recommended that I visit all of the neighbours in the area to tell them what I was doing and, without exception, they embraced it and encouraged me to enjoy myself. I have taken some of them for a ride.
Of course, I didn't visit the whinger.

[Deaf]

10 acres = 4ha
So a square block would be 200mx200m
Sunfish IIRC has been building one of these:
STOL CH 750 light sport utility airplane from Zenith Aircraft Company - the ultimate short take-off and landing sport kitplane - Sport Pilot Ready (http://zenithair.com/stolch750/750-crz-performance.html)

Assume they are the same as the related Savannah and the reverse of a light 172 ie TO from a tennis court but landing 100m over 50ft you'd better be perfect every time.