How to log Copilot time on a Single Pilot Aircraft without Type Rating

[bleedair87]

Hi guys,

Maybe some of you know the answer to my questions. The Forum and Google didn't, even though there are some posts concerning my subject but unfort. do not answer my question.

Pre-Info: I am holding a fATPL and NO Type Rating.

In 2010, I was "acting" as a Copilot on the Single Pilot Aricraft Cessna 340, on which no Type Rating is required. I never did a Differential Training on this plane and just acted as a Radio Operator and adjusted Power during climb and approach.
My question now: Can I log these hours according to JAR-FCL or isn't that possible? And if I can, HOW do I log them? Dual? Copilot?

Once, I was also asked to join an IFR flight on an Archer because the A/P wasn't able to hold altitude. So according to the laws, another pilot, who has a radio license, has to join that flight for safety reasons. Can I also log these hours? And if yes, HOW can I log them?

Thanks in advance!

Bleed Air

[S-Works]

You cant log it towards the experience requirements for the issue or revalidation of a licence or rating.

At best if you want to keep a note of it put it in the supernumary column. It is just memory time, nothing more.

[SkyCamMK]

Stand by for a barrage... not from me though,

Unless PIC was an instructor and you received instruction then you are effectively a passenger. Safety pilot is not a status that attracts anything unless you shared PIC.

P2 is for multi crew types and Dual is under instruction.

Your gain is the experience but does not assist you in hours for a logbook.

I cannot see any other option but I wait to see the replies...

[bleedair87]

Ok thanks so far. So also not for the same function in Commuter Planes like the Britten Norman 2 Islander and the Cessna 404?

[S-Works]

Oh for gods sake. You are now asking a different question.

Put it simply. If you are flying in an aircraft certified as a Single Pilot Aircraft that aircraft only has a SINGLE pilot. You cant log anything towards the experience requirements for the issue or revalidation of as licence or rating. You did not have a type rating for the aircraft and were not under instruction. Therefore you can't log any countable time. By all means put it in your logbook as memory time if that floats your boat, but otherwise the time is meaningless.

For aircraft operated under AOC arrangements that are certified for single pilot operations but require 2 crew under local regulatory arrangments then what you log is agreed with the overseeing CAA.

So to put it as clearly as possible. In the case you have stated at the start of this thread the time you have mentioned is not loggable by you in anyway that will count towards the issue or revalidation of a rating or licence.

Is that clear enough?

[Whopity]

You could of course log it as radio telephony operator.

[bingofuel]

The Cessna 340 is a class of aeroplane (MEP), not a type . However it is pressurised.

If you had a valid MEP rating, and had difference training for the aircraft systems, and it was being operated on an AOC, and you were qualified under the AOC to fly it, and the autopilot was U/S making a second pilot a legal requirement for AOC work, then and only then,you could probably log the time.
However, as you can see there are a lot of 'ands' .If it is an AOC operation, speak to the flight ops inspector for his opinion.

[max_continuous]

This issue has affected me too (I found no possible way of logging 15-ish such hours other than as SNY time), and while researching I found this document which pretty much killed the issue for me:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD201021.pdf

[S-Works]

Why is it an 'issue'? You were a passenger. You want to log time in the back of a Ryanair 737 just because you are a pilot and would like to think you could be called on when that much desired call comes over the tannoy - 'is there a pilot on board'...... :ugh:

[max_continuous]

Ok, so perhaps "issue" was poor word choice, however one might equally ask why you are getting so worked up about this "matter"?

Much like, I imagine, the OP I am recently qualified and looking to gain experience. A search through this forum will reveal that and a number of other facts.

After qualifying I have found work at a small operator who fly single pilot aircraft rather than spending money on a TR as I want to experience and would happily work in the realm of "hands-on" flying.

On occasion I have been fortunate enough to be taken on some company flights, all of them positioning and not operated as AOC flights, and to have been allowed to control the aircraft or otherwise contribute to that flight. I have never, in the sense of sitting looking out the window, just been along for the ride, but as you quite rightly point out (and which I have not contested nor claimed to the contrary) according to the law that's exactly what I was doing.

On each of those fights I have been shown things by more experienced pilots or experienced issues and seen them being resolved. I contributed to the planning of the flights, in fact usually I did it and the PIC checked it, and tried to take as much from the experience as possible. In short I tried and feel I suceeded in learning something.

Now, being newly qualified I wanted to check whether I could "claim" any of this experience by logging it as time and not simply SNY, and as I alluded to above, my instincts were correct and I cannot therefore no record of these flights exist in my logbook. I am not falsifying experience, I am not claiming something which did not happen and I am not trying to defraud anyone. I am low hours and want all the experience I can get; turns out I can't have those hours.

That is why this, to some of us, it is an issue, matter, quandary or query.

[Whopity]

What I find particularly sad is that in your endeavours to become a professional pilot, no doubt at considerable expense, nobody has told you what you can or can't do with your shiny new licence! What the hell do they do in 700 hours of groundschool?

[max_continuous]

Increasingly they put you in front of a computer in a hot, stuffy, non-air-conditioned room and make you listen to someone recite most of an air law textbook.

Falling asleep was common, and it is apparent from the monotonous tone of the narrator that he is contemplating ending it all just to get it over with.

I suggested to the school (OAA) afterwards that air law not being the most stimulating topic perhaps the shift to CBT was ill advised.

[bingofuel]

Max continuous

All credit to you for trying to gain experience, and it is experience.
However it cannot count towards any licence quotas. But, if you keep a record of the flights, routes etc, at least you can show on a CV that you have a certain number of hours in commercial operations , abeit as a 'passenger', but it is better than nothing.
Why don't you speak to the operator and ask if you could fly the non commercial legs, or some positioning flights as the pilot?
If you don't ask, you don't get!

[bleedair87]

What I find particularly sad is that in your endeavours to become a professional pilot, no doubt at considerable expense, nobody has told you what you can or can't do with your shiny new licence! What the hell do they do in 700 hours of groundschool? Todays training is more or less the easiest and fastest way to get your license - not the most qualitive. Groundschool covers the basic principals - the rest comes with self-study and experience on the line. Imagine things like time logging as a copilot on single pilot aircraft would be covered in theory. Then there are thousands of more important things to teach. This would end in a never ending story. Aviation is so complex and you have to keep on review things continously, because it's so much. But now I find myself talking off topic. :)

Btw, I asked pilots with more than 20 years aviation experience but even they didn't had a clue how to log these hours in this particular situation. So it's not just bad theory lessons ;) It's rather a specific and non-usual situation in my opinion.

[mutt]

You want to log time in the back of a Ryanair 737 just because you are a pilot Hey I can legally log time whilst sleeping, so what's the difference ? :)

Mutt

[Whopity]

Then there are thousands of more important things to teach.A licence is a legal Permit and it is pretty essential that the holder knows what they are permitted to do!It's rather a specific and non-usual situation in my opinion. No, its a very common question as you can probably judge fom some of the responses. It is as well that you ask especially as so many pilots don't appear to know the answer. One cannot help but wonder if thats partly due to the number of changes there have been to the licensing system over the years. The next tranche is almost upon us, and is finally based on the chaos theory.

[S-Works]

Quote:
You want to log time in the back of a Ryanair 737 just because you are a pilot

Hey I can legally log time whilst sleeping, so what's the difference ?

Mutt

Because despite being a dosser you are required flight crew...... :p:p

[Genghis the Engineer]

I wonder how astronauts log their time when, say, being captain of the Orbiter whilst it's sat in orbit and they're eating, sleeping, or doing experiments up the back somewhere?

G

[what next]

I wonder how astronauts log their time...

Why should they log their time at all? The 90-day-rule does not apply, because there is only one landing every six months or so, their typerating is going to be worthless in a few months anyway due to the lack of "type" and there is no higher qualification to be gained by accumulating hours. Or was there ever a supervision captain or a type rating examiner for any kind of spacecraft?

[Whopity]

More to the point they don't have a licence so they don't need to log anything to revalidate it. Have you noticed they never leave the circuit. Under EASA they will be Annex II.

[theficklefinger]

Reminds of a twin running around, where three guys would split the time and log the hours..

You had a pilot in the left seat, a flight instructor in the right, and get this, an ATP in the back as he was the highest rated pilot in the aircraft, a little arcane rule that has passed scrutiny with the FAA.

This was taken to task when a guy gave a lift to an ATP rated pilot, the guy flew through military airspace while the ATP was asleep, the ATP was reprimanded for not having prevented this, as he was sitting up front.

It's like logging ground taxi time. The FAA will bust a pilot for rolling his C172 into 737, so the rule is, if your responsible, you can log it.