Cessna Down near Ingleborough

[sammypilot]

The Westmoreland Gazette reports that a Cessna out of Blackpool crashed near Ingleborough last evening (21st March.) Minor injuries to two occupants.

[Endeavour]

a little more here.....

BBC News - Two injured in North Yorkshire light plane crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-12815876)

[Keepitup]

Couple of pictures, aircraft G-BJKY

Looking at pics and time to find the gents, they were very lucky !!!

Taken Link off, not sure if it was mine causing probs, Sorry !!

[Sir George Cayley]

That's one hell of an escape. I've never seen such a badly mangled wreck from which anyone survived.

Sir George Cayley

[FlyingKiwi_73]

I can't understand how they survived it looks like the entire engine bay is folded under the fuse, one broken leg?? unbelievable!

poor buggers probably had some serious hypothermia, i can't imagine it was a warm night.

Question, a night flight in IMC above terrain = pleasure flight??? err :confused:

[wsmempson]

CFIT in IMC, at night, in a 152 with no GPS - I'm just astonished that they survived....:eek:

[DX Wombat]

in a 152 with no GPS -How do you know there was no GPS? I think I may have flown that aircraft a year or so ago but I can't remember if it had GPS or not. I'm also amazed that they got out of that. It was pretty cold up here last night and it will have been even colder on the top of Ingleborough.

[eharding]

A forumite over on the...er....light side was involved, and has posted a brief summary of the events.

Very glad he's able to do so.

[Germstone]

No GPS fit in that A/C.

[DX Wombat]

Thanks EH.
VIRUS WARNING!
I tried the Westmorland Gazette link and had AVG screaming blue murder about viruses and Trojans, five of which had been dumped on my computer. AVG dealt with them. I have since run a virus check and my computer is now clear.

[flybymike]

yes, me too. Norton to the rescue. I think the virus will infect you if you actually click on the "OK" on screen warning. Best use your own independent scanner.

[eharding]

Thanks EH.
VIRUS WARNING!
I tried the Westmorland Gazette link and had AVG screaming blue murder about viruses and Trojans, five of which had been dumped on my computer. AVG dealt with them. I have since run a virus check and my computer is now clear.

DX - no idea about the Westmorland Gazette - I'm a Daily Telegraph chap myself.

Was referring to the 'Light aircraft from Blackpool down in Yorkshire' thread over on the Flyer Forums.

I have had some nasties emerge from the adverts over there, but I thought they had sorted that months ago.

[DX Wombat]

I've sent a message to the Mods explaining the problem and asking them if they would be kind enough to remove the link.
EH, there is a link to the Westmorland Gazette in one of the early posts. I clicked on it and, as I said, had AVG screaming blue murder. Another PPRuNer has also had the same problem.
I had a look at "T'other Side" thanks. :ok: The problem was here on PPRuNe not over there.

[PYROCLASTIC]

Hmmm! Should have got an aircraft with better equipment!!!

Wonder if the guilt is twinging yet?

What goes around comes around!

Its easy coming out with cocky comments from a nice cozy ATC environment !!!!

[eharding]

I've sent a message to the Mods explaining the problem and asking them if they would be kind enough to remove the link.
EH, there is a link to the Westmorland Gazette in one of the early posts. I clicked on it and, as I said, had AVG screaming blue murder. Another PPRuNer has also had the same problem.
I had a look at "T'other Side" thanks. :ok: The problem was here on PPRuNe not over there.

Ah...understand now!

[FlyingKiwi_73]

could somebody PM the link to the flyer forums, i'd really like to understand why somebody would conduct a flight like this.

Thanx

[flybymike]

FLYER Forums • View topic - Light aircraft from Blackpool down in Yorkshire (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69273)

[Deeday]

A forumite over on the...er....light side was involved, and has posted a brief summary of the events.What's the deal with all this "there-is-a-post-on-the-forum-that-cannot-be-named" joke?
The forum is the Flyer one, the link is the one posted by flybymike. I don't think the mods here have a problem with cross-forum linking, as I don't suppose the Flyer's mods have a problem with people there linking to PPRuNe.

One day it's "pancaking-on-trees-is-fun" Vince that tells his story on here. Next time it's "GPS-is-for-wimps-Real-men-do-CFITs" KNT that comes clean on Flyer. Stories like these must be shared.

[eharding]

What's the deal with all this "there-is-a-post-on-the-forum-that-cannot-be-named" joke?
The forum is the Flyer one, the link is the one posted by flybymike. I don't think the mods here have a problem with cross-forum linking, as I don't suppose the Flyer's mods have a problem with people there linking to PPRuNe.


Calm down dear. You'll see I cited the source in a subsequent post.

Frankly, poor old KNT appears to be getting more of a kicking over there from certain parties than I would expect even here on Pprune even on a particularly brusque day.

[DX Wombat]

I wrote the following on t'other side :E but it bears repeating here.
For those of you unfamiliar with the area, Ingleton is 10.7 miles (statute) NW of Settle by road and Ingleborough itself approximately 2.5 statute miles NE of Ingleton. As you can see, the distances are small and, at night, there is a lack of illuminated areas up there. In spite of its popularity with walker, cavers, climbers and potholers once you leave the town area it is a very bleak, remote place. They were lucky to get a signal for the mobile phone.
Ingleborough Summit is 724m ASL
I'm just glad they have survived physically relatively unscathed.

[Roffa]

pyroclastic, in a manly, up front way wrote:

Hmmm! Should have got an aircraft with better equipment!!!

Wonder if the guilt is twinging yet?

What goes around comes around!

Its easy coming out with cocky comments from a nice cozy ATC environment !!!!

Always nice to see anonymous individuals posting comments such as these.

Very brave :rolleyes:

[DX Wombat]

Keepitup, thank you. Unfortunately it was your link which was the problem but I'm sure you weren't aware of the problem when you posted it.

[long final]

Roffa,

I guess you don't understand the context of the comment?

[DX Wombat]

For anyone who may wonder what attempts would be maade to rescue them in such an event may I suggest you have a look at the thread on Flyer (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69273&start=120) - particularly Page 9.
The rescue involved Blackpool ATC, D&D, ARCC, a RAF Seaking, Mountain Rescue, Cave Rescue, SARDA and the local Police and Ambulance services. It was a SARDA dog, Glen (http://www.sardaengland.org.uk/) and his owner who found them. We are so fortunate to live and fly in this country.

[Okavango]

Is there an official report available for this incident yet?

[Sir George Cayley]

Have you done a search on the AAIB website?

Air Accidents Investigation: Publications (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm)

SGC

[DX Wombat]

Okavango, I would be very surprised to see anything before about a year after the incident there certainly isn't anything yet.

[JUST-local]

Air Accidents Investigation: Reims Cessna F152, G-BJKY (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/october_2011/reims_cessna_f152__g_bjky.cfm)

[IO540]

Some AAIB reports are of good quality but some like this one have been done by some right corpses.

They miss the elephant in the room whuch is that the PIC (a CAA instructor) was basically doing this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Dust_(aircraft)
but about 60 years too late; in the wrong century in fact.

Not using a GPS (out of the view of the student if appropriate) is what led to this.

Visual navigation at night is very difficult, not least because visual cues like cities can look very different in shape.

When i was doing my NQ, with a highly experienced ex ATP, we got thoroughly lost too. It worked out ok in the end, partly because the airport was on the coast, with no hills around.

I guess the CAA was concerned about a court case (a personal injury lawsuit by the student) showing up what an antiquated training system we have, so the report was written in the RAF navigator style to nip that in the bud.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Perhaps, but I think a big factor here is that the instructor held his hands up right from the beginning and admitted he screwed up big time. There was no attempt by him to obfuscate or try to sidestep the blame.

[Cows getting bigger]

Not using a GPS (out of the view of the student if appropriate) is what led to this.


Tosh. Not planning a sensible route, not cross checking correctly and descending when not entirely certain of position led to this. OK, a properly set up GPS should have averted disaster but this type of accident is indicative of an instructor (examiner?) who wasn't ahead of his student. As an instructor/examiner I make damn sure I know exactly where I am at all times, GPS or not. This chap appears to have not noticed a 25+ degree drift from planned track - the wind used for planning should have presented a 8 deg max drift, the actual wind would have given about a 15 deg max drift. So, even accepting that when selecting the heading for diversion they did not allow for any drift, they were still 10 deg right of where the actual wind would have put them.

Sloppy, very sloppy. I'm not sure that pilots with this level of arousal would have managed to even plot an accurate route on a GPS, never mind putting the magenta diamond above the planned track. :ugh:

[IO540]

Could be multiple explanations.

Every training plane I ever flew in had a crappy DI, which would drift say 10 degrees in 10 minutes, and had to be continually re-set from the liquid compass. If one forgot to do that... ?

They did some VOR position fixing, which was obviously inadequate, for some reason. Crap VOR receiver? I have flown with some fine specimens, too.

GPS is not "necessary" (C. Columbus sailed to the USA without it, Great Britain beat Germany without it TWICE, etc, etc, etc, etc) but is by far the best tool for the job, and should have been used, because the whole concept of "MSA" hangs totally on an accurate position, and since you have to descend sometime, eventually...

Another angle is that the instructor carries a big responsibility: the student's life.

And another angle is that if you get lost, you might bust airspace, and as an instructor you will end up looking less than great in the proverbial interview "without tea and biscuits". In fact the only way to end up looking even worse would be to do all this on a training flight in an N-reg :) (which is when I receive any training in my plane, I make sure the instructor has a GPS running at all times even if I can't see it).