copied/copy - whats the difference?

[Mr Cessna]

While transiting through the Wattisham zone I heard somebody reply to the controller: ''copy traffic G-JB''. I was instructed from a very early stage, to reply when warned of nearby traffic: ''Traffic coppied'' not ''copy traffic'' unlike the pilot of the other aircraft. What is the difference between the two?

Does COPY TRAFFIC mean something different to TRAFFIC COPPIED i.e. actually visual or not visual at this time but looking out?

Maybe a silly question, but its bugged me for a while now :ugh:

[FlyingKiwi_73]

i'd guess unless theres some odd UK FRTO law they are the same.
Copy Traffic to me is "understand your advisory and will look" as in yep heard that... looking now.

Normally i reply 'Copy Traffic and Looking, ABC' if i can't see the A/C.
If i can see the traffic i will say 'Copied, Have the traffic, ABC' or 'Copied, Have traffic in sight, ABC'

Then there is no doubt.

[jollyrog]

No difference at all between them. They're both equally incorrect.

CAP413 says:
1.12 Acknowledgement of Receipt
Acknowledgements of information should be signified by the use of the receiving stations’ callsign or Roger callsign, and not by messages such as: 'callsign-copy the weather' or 'callsign-copy the traffic'.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

this is how the NZ CAA would have you do it Staright from AC91-9

PQR TRAFFIC 2 O’CLOCK 5 MILES NORTHBOUND CHEROKEE AT 2000 FEET
-PQR LOOKING
PQR IF NO SIGHTING SUGGEST TURN LEFT 60 DEGREES
-PQR TRAFFIC IN SIGHT
PQR ROGER

Or

FASTAIR 345 UNKNOWN TRAFFIC 1 O’CLOCK 3 MILES OPPOSITE DIRECTION FAST MOVING
-FASTAIR 345 LOOKING ... FASTAIR 345 TRAFFIC IN SIGHT NOW PASSED CLEARED

As long as you tell them you are looking and do or do not have the traffic in sight thats safe.

[mad_jock]

Jollyrog has it.... Both are pish.

[BackPacker]

I agree with jollyrog. Stuff that's not a readback item does not have to be acknowledged. And if the transmission from ATC only contains non-readback items (such as a traffic advisory) you only need to acknowledge the whole transmission, either with just your callsign or a Roger followed by your callsign.

My personal favourite:
"Cleared to land 06, copied the wind, G-ABCD". Really? Are you going to write down the wind on your plog in the most critical phase of flight?

On the other hand, "Roger, G-CD" takes the same amount of time as a "Copied, G-CD" or "Looking, G-CD". And whereas "Roger" doesn't mean much more than "I've heard you talk to me but I might not know exactly what you mean and/or I'm not sure I'm going to act upon your information", a "copied" or "looking" at the very least implies that you understood what was being said and will act upon the information appropriately.

Does COPY TRAFFIC mean something different to TRAFFIC COPPIED

The only occasion that I know of that the order of the words really matters is in "hold position" and "position and hold", which seems to be a US-only expression. In Europe they've changed the latter to "line-up and hold" for precisely that reason.

[what next]

The only occasion that I know of that the order of the words really matters is in "hold position" and "position and hold", which seems to be a US-only expression.

No more. Luckily. See here: Runway Safety - Current Events: Line Up and Wait Phraseology Change (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/lauw/)

[BackPacker]

Excellent.

I did have to smile though when I read that it took an NTSB analysis to reveal this difference between FAA and ICAO practices, and a full safety analysis by the FAA before the difference was rectified.

Oh well, these people have to have something to do too, I guess.

And is it just me, or does the video contain a rather glaring error? It says something along the lines of "Line up and wait means that an aircraft can enter the runway and wait, while waiting for its departure clearance."

Shouldn't that be "take-off clearance"? Departure clearances, AFAIK, are already given by Clearance Delivery, or during taxi, and contain the stuff (mostly IFR) that happens after your wheels have left the runway.

[mad_jock]

Nope another brit thing here.

You never use takeoff unless its to do with takeoff clearance ie "xxxy cleared takeoff". At all other times you use departure.

[BackPacker]

That's my point. Once you are lined up and waiting, you're waiting for your take-off clearance. Not for your departure clearance.

[mad_jock]

BUt you never should use the word takeoff in relation to aircraft unless it is to do with an actual real life clearance.

Even in multi crew briefs its frowned apon to use the word "takeoff" its always "after departure".

I know it may sound anal but the word takeoff is quite a major trigger word.

The reason why is multiple cockups when aircraft have departed when they wern't meant to just because they have half heard "takeoff" on the RT and presumed it was for them and gone.

And its not uncommon to get a local departure clearance eg "slowtp 332 after noise left heading 270 degrees".

The keeping "takeoff" special does work, it does trigger your ear for heightened SA. My heart rate does go up if I am in a dangerous position ie on the active and someone uses "takeoff" for example you are crossing a runway and you hear "takeoff" that could mean you have an aircraft coming towards you. The accident with the shorts in Paris is a prime example, if the pilots had heard cleared takeoff in english they might not have crossed the holding point onto the live runway.

The use of "departure clearance" instead of "takeoff clearance" is just a industry standard practise and one which I whole heartly agree with. I might add when I was a new FO on line I did think it was a bit anal. 3.5K hours later and in the LHS with a few ring twitchers behind me I am a bit anal about its miss use as well.

[BackPacker]

Agree. And you didn't even refer to Tenerife. Which was, as far as I know, the trigger that caused all this.

But my point remains. Once you are lined up and waiting, what you're waiting for is the take-off clearance. You should have had your departure clearance already by then, especially if it's a complicated departure with multiple lateral and vertical instructions.

[what next]

... You should have had your departure clearance already by then, ...

The IFR clearance is not called departure clearance and no one ever uses this term! It may contain the word "departure" at some point (like "XY-Air123 cleared to London Stanstead via the Olno 3 Alpha departure, climb FL 70 and squak 1234") - but it is called "ATC clearance".

[BackPacker]

Fair enough.

[mad_jock]

Most commercial pilots try and blot the tenerife accident out of heads due to it being done to death in CRM courses. Tenerife was the trigger for the whole subject of human factors and crew interaction. The RT side of things came of the back of that over the years. Quite a few of the Brit practises date back to before that. In quite a few cases the pilots that got killed have been forgotten about but the "good practise" which was the fall out of the accident continues.

what next is correct.

The only time you should use takeoff in relation to aircraft is

a) during PPL instruction ground briefs until they can get there head round they shouldn't use it.

b) when reading back a departure clearance :p

At work I have done getting on for 100 sectors in the last month I used the word "takeoff" twice and both of them were in a debrief and used in the context of "takeoff roll" which for some would be bad practise. I might add as a Captain I don't generally do the RT on the ground and if the FO was that busy they couldn't take a departure clearance we wouldn't be accepting it anyway. But to be honest this is hyperthetical because I would have refused the line up clearance if I didn't think we would be ready to go when so cleared.

To be fair its not the fault that PPL's use it incorrectly. Instructors are the same and won't get the habit beaten out of them until they start flying in a commercial enviroment. I know Captain's that have been MOR'd and had to visit the Chief Pilot because of poor RT at Manchester airport by thier FO. It wasn't just using take off I might add. MAN is quite strict about taxi clearance readbacks, hold short instructions and conditional clearances the condition being read back first.

Sorry you posted while I was wirting I will leave it anyway because it might install a good practise into some PPL readers.

[J.A.F.O.]

One of my favourites was the wag who, when advised of a group of rabbits seen on the runway replied: "G-CD Roger the rabbit." :)

[mad_jock]

Or when passed traffic info about a squirrel helicopter "rodger the squirrel" to which a plum voice replied "I would prefer if you refrained from doing that"