Landing Fees.

[unmanned transport]

Have landing fees been mandated for landing in any farmer's fields yet ?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I know a farmer who charges $50 a time for driving down his farm track.

(He does have tens of kilometres of road he has to maintain somehow, and it isn't cheap. I don't know if he charges for use of his airstrips - he's got three, one at each end of the farm and one in the middle, 'cos it's a bit expensive to have the vet sitting in a 4WD for hours to get from one end to the other.)

[Danscowpie]

In the UK no.

But isn't it reasonable to expect to pay a nominal sum towards the upkeep of airfield you'd like to think would be there for you to use in the future?
The vast majority of pilots could & do think of a million excuses as to why they shouldn't bother.

Of course, many such strips don't rely on pilots contributions to keep them going, if they did, there wouldn't be anywhere to land other than privately airfields or airports.

[unmanned transport]

That makes sense as I thought that the bureaucracy had implemented some more regulations.

I grew up on the island, got my flying licence there and became discouraged by the stifling regulations, so I moved west across the big pond to the bigger island in the west, laid roots down and blossomed like a nice big sunflower.

Now I can afford to fly my own aircraft and even legally do all of my own maintenance. I understand that an owner pilot still cannot do his own aircraft maintenance in the Brit Isles.

I must say that I really feel sorry for all you nice folk there with your struggle to enjoy some affordable flying. Your aircraft ownership/flying costs are almost triple of what they are here. What have IOPA done to lower costs for you? Sweet dick all I would think.

[SNS3Guppy]

Now I can afford to fly my own aircraft and even legally do all of my own maintenance. I understand that an owner pilot still cannot do his own aircraft maintenance in the Brit Isles.

Do you perhaps mean that unqualified, uncertificated, unlicensed individuals can't do maintenance on their own aircraft?

[Piper.Classique]

Now I can afford to fly my own aircraft and even legally do all of my own maintenance. I understand that an owner pilot still cannot do his own aircraft maintenance in the Brit Isles.

Not quite the case. Some maintenance is legal for the pilot/operator to do and sign off. Some needs an engineers sign off, but anyone can actually do the work. All those grease monkeys in the hangar are usually unqualified and working under supervision (one hopes....)
Depends on the status of the a/c as to who cane sign for what (permit, easa, annex II spring to mind, and whether it will be used for public transport or not)
It's all written down somewhere, look it up if you want the details!

[chevvron]

In reply to the OP, sometimes there is an 'honesty' system where it asks for a 'voluntary contribution' to the airfield upkeep. I encountered this once at Holmbeck Farm where there was a potrakabin with tea and coffee making stuff and was happy to pay, even though the farmer turned up just after we landed and got his wife to make us a cuppa. I think there's also an honesty system at Finmere.

[Humaround]

Actually, there's a small army of us LAA and microlight folk who largely maintain our own aircraft. No need to feel sorry for us.

Not that we aren't jealous of your cheap gas...

[Rod1]

” I understand that an owner pilot still cannot do his own aircraft maintenance in the Brit Isles.”

“Do you perhaps mean that unqualified, uncertificated, unlicensed individuals can't do maintenance on their own aircraft?”

Yes, there are around 8000 unqualified, uncertificated, unlicensed individuals doing there own maintenance / building there own aircraft. We have to get it checked at critical points by an enthusiast inspector, but we do the work. My running costs are about 1/3 of what I used to pay for an AA5B. Do not fee too sorry for us, we are having lots of fun!

Rod1

[Ryan5252]

In reply to the OP, sometimes there is an 'honesty' system where it asks for a 'voluntary contribution' to the airfield upkeep

Unfortunately this 'honesty' system does not always work both ways. I made a trip last summer to one such place and made a contribuation (on the advice of the aerodrome operator) to the local RNLI in lieu of a landing fee, only to recieve an invoice 6 months for another landing fee as "they have changed their procedure". There 8 pilots I know personally who this happened to so I hate to think how many others were also affected! :=

[chevvron]

As far as I know, there are no lifeboat stations in Bedfordshire!

[JUST-local]

Piper.Classique

EASA.
Public Transport is long gone, people still use the term including the CAA :ugh:

Commercial air transport (CAT) for AOC ops. Aerial work for flying school, rental etc. and private for private where may some limited pilot owner maintenance is possible.

Don't mean to be picky but if we keep using the terms!

[SNS3Guppy]

Yes, there are around 8000 unqualified, uncertificated, unlicensed individuals doing there own maintenance / building there own aircraft. We have to get it checked at critical points by an enthusiast inspector, but we do the work. My running costs are about 1/3 of what I used to pay for an AA5B. Do not fee too sorry for us, we are having lots of fun!

Building your own airplane and maintaining it is one thing, as you're the aircraft manufacturer, and are entitled.

Maintaining a certified aircraft, on the other hand, without qualification is another matter entirely.

[SNS3Guppy]

Flying an aircraft that operates with maintenance left to some commercial shop's discretion with no dedicated owner to make sure its done right makes me very nervous! With my aircraft, NOBODY works on them without me physically present.

No dedicated owner to make sure it gets done right? You know more than the certificated mechanics who have training and years of experience? Rather arrogant.

[unmanned transport]

I meant qualified engineers. A&P with IA authorization or in Canada an individual with Aircraft Mtce Engineer (AME) category M1 and pilot owner can do his own annual etc. Which I am and can annual my own Cessna and fly it.

If I were now living in Britain with my Cessna and had the equivalent CAA/JAA ratings as above, would I be legal to fly it and annual it as the owner?

When I lived there is was a no no.

[Rod1]

“Building your own airplane and maintaining it is one thing, as you're the aircraft manufacturer, and are entitled.”

Careful Gup, the rules in the UK are very different from the US. Here you can maintain a permit aircraft with inspector oversight even if you did not build it. This does not alter the fact that we are almost all unlicensed, unqualified and uncertificated, but we like it that way.

Over the last 20 year our safety record (from the point of view of mechanical failure) is up with the c of a machines. Primary difference between an enthusiast and a professional is the enthusiast will spend huge amounts of time getting it absolutely right, the professional will spend just enough time to get it acceptable.

Rod1

[unmanned transport]

I'll try again.

I'm a British citizen.
I own a Cessna Cardinal.
I am a qualified pilot.
I am a qualified engineer.
Can I do the annual on my aircraft?
(The answer used to be NO)

TIA.

[SNS3Guppy]

Careful Gup, the rules in the UK are very different from the US. Here you can maintain a permit aircraft with inspector oversight even if you did not build it.

It's the same in the US. "Qualified oversight," is the overriding principle there, though. One should bear in mind that if one's work is being signed off by a qualified mechanic, then it's the mechanic's responsibility, not yours, and this doesn't entitle you to do as you please.

If I supervise someone else doing the work, it will need to be done to my standard. I've met some non-mechanic owners who do extremely fine work, and I've met some who do such shoddy work that they should never be let near their own aircraft.

As a former Flight Advisor and Technical Advisor for the Experimental Aircraft Association, as well as a builder myself, I'm aware of the quality of work that can be found among those dedicated enough to build their own aircraft (or restore them, as the case may be). I've seen some absolutely superior craftsmanship which puts any production airplane easily to shame. Then again, I've always said that the homebuilding arena is the future of aviation.

Look at what Scaled Composites became, our of a workshop that built surfboards; it put an aircraft in space. Put NASA to shame, too.

[unmanned transport]

The CAA (known as "Campaign Against Aviation" or "Charge Again and Again") is downright bizzare.

If you don't fly for five years, your license(es) are stone dead and you have to start again from zero. No recurrency training to bring one back up to snuff.

Medicals cost several hundred pounds.

Maintenance is a horror - new regulations require THREE separate companies to do maintenance - one company does the work, another company does the paperwork and a third company oversees the first two.!!

The result is that an annual on a 172 can cost ten grand . . . and EACH model of aircraft requires a separate authorization certificate for the licensed workshop - a shop that has a 172 certificate can't annual a 172 SP or RG.go figure??!!

Some operators got US registry to get under FAA regulations instead - CAA has now made that illegal in the British isles.

Student pilots are about to find out that they must train in British airspace, no more going abroad to the US or South Africa where it is affordable - evidently the air is different in the British Isles, according to the CAA.

It gets worse - and we won't even talk about the price of fuel - lets just talk about landing fees -

$20 a pop for every touchdown - do ten touch and goes in a 150 and you've spent $200 just on landing fees. There are fees for just about anything - including turning on the runway lights at night. Someone had an in-flight emergency and needed to make an emergency landing, the airport turned the lights on for him - he solved the problem and never landed there, but got a bill for 200 quid anyway.

Navigation fees, Weather report fees, the list goes on........

Not much wonder others including myself hi tailed it out of this wind swept island with all of it's ugly weather and repressive bureaucracy.

[Humaround]

Most of your facts and figures are off, UT.

If I don't fly for 5 years, I do not have to start my PPL training again. I do have to fly enough hours with an instructor to be safe, then take a skills test (entirely sensible IYAM)

Usually possible to pay a one-off fee for circuit practise, eg Enstone £25 and you can circuit all day.

Navigation and weather fees? Don't pay 'em.

My Class 2 medical cost under £90 last year, including ECG.

By all means rant about the CAA, but do get your facts lined up.

Perhaps the foul weather and repressive bureaucracy is inside your head?

[madlandrover]

Yep, get the facts right. Undoubtedly there are issues with the CAA bureaucracy but they won't be solved unless we are 100% correct with our facts. EG the maintenance issue comes from EASA rather than from Gatwick and in no way requires 3 separate companies for 1 annual - it is possible although not automatic to roll all of these into one organisation quite legally and simply. A £10000 annual on a C172 can be down to 2 things: 1) a maintenance organisation fleecing you (rare but can happen) or 2) significant airworthiness work needing done without further delay, often because it's been neglected for several years on the owner's instructions to save money.

FWIW there are elements of the FAA "style" that I envy greatly, especially the freedom side of it, but I'm quite able to work without issues while observing CAA/EASA regulations.

[unmanned transport]

Thanks for your corrections fellas.

All that goobleygoop was copied from a misinformed individual in Florida that has lost quite a lot of business from you fellas not going over there to train any more. I thought I would throw it out for critique as I suspected the accuracy of some of it. Anyway, keep the chin up and lots of blue sky.

[BillieBob]

What an utterly bizarre, pointless and ill-informed load of crap. You should take more water with it, old chap (or re-start the medication). With an attitude like that, I just can't imagine why your informant has lost so much EU business.

[A and C]

I would like to just take one point, as had been said above the £10K annual check depends on the state of that aircraft I have done £1K annual checks on well maintaned aircraft and £10K 50 hour checks on aircraft that have had problems.

Quailtiy maintenance is no different what ever side of the Atlantic you are on, the things that make Europe so expensive are taxation (both business & for the individual), EASA inapproprate regulation and property prices.

I doubt if the maintenance companies in Europe get to Keep any more of the money than they do in the USA, they just see a lot more money as it passes through on the way to the tax man & EASA.

[cockney steve]

IMHO, an "unlicensed, unskilled" individual who has an engineering aptitude and a grasp of the operating principles and physics of any piece of machinery he's maintaining, is safer than the guy who jumps through the hoops, learns to parrot the answers and gets a "pass"

look at the thousands of licensed drivers you dice with on the highway, every day......no spatial awareness, think their vehicle needs a metre clearance either side , cannot "read" the traffic pattern ahead (lack of anticipation)........

I'd venture to suggest that Aviators are usually aware that a lack of ability or comprehension can lead to premature death,,,,therefore, if they're out of their depth, in unfamiliar territory, they ask someone more competent.

Unfortunately, the CAA would face a lot of redundancies ,if common-sense were to prevail, so the beast feeds itself and excretes ever bigger mounds of red-tape...which needs overseeing and enforcing. :E
cynic? -Moi?:}